Undergrad Competitiveness?

Started by Alwaysbehopeful
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Alwaysbehopeful

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Do medical schools take into account where you went to undergrad? I went to Berkeley where they have a 1.1 grade deflation compared to other schools. I was wondering if my GPA 3.5 will actually carry more weight b/c of how competitive my undergrad was. I know that if I went to another school I would have definitely done better and probably would have a 3.9 or 4.0 at a state school easily. Not to be conceited but the classes are just damn easier at other schools. I know some of the private schools have grade inflation. So do medical schools take all of this into account?
 
My friends have explicitly been told institution matters. Not necessarily "rank" but if your program has a reputation for being difficult schools know about it. Adcoms specifically equate lower 3. whatever from harder schools to higher 3.somethings at easier/grade inflated schools. (or so I've been told)
 
Thanks! I guess I don't want to wine about it like oh my school was hard but I just hope my 3.5 will be seen as more of a 3.7+ to the adcoms 🙂 With the 1.1 calculation it is 3.85 but I don't think I deserve that high of a gpa. The classes and my major were both pretty tough and I did take some of the hardest classes offered. Anyone else have heard about this?
 
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There is no "correction" for a lower GPA based on the undergrad school you attended. Rather, the school's reputation and competitiveness is what counts. A 3.5 from Berkeley (or University of Chicago, for that matter) is not better than a 4.0 from Harvard, Brown or Yale with their perceived grade inflation. Top med schools have cut offs based on GPA and MCAT scores, not on the undergrad institution's name.

Unfortunately if your 3.5 + MCAT is not competitive for the school you are applying to, it does not matter which undergrad you are coming from.
 
I think in these kinds of cases the MCAT score is given further scrutiny. It's really hard to account for all the variables that go into gpa, so it's hard to know what exactly is taken into account, if anything at all.
 
Contrarian said:
I think in these kinds of cases the MCAT score is given further scrutiny. It's really hard to account for all the variables that go into gpa, so it's hard to know what exactly is taken into account, if anything at all.
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This is what I was going to say.
 
lol there is no way a 3.5 at cal will be seen as a 3.7+. there is likely no grade deflation at cal, either. the average gpa is around a 3.3, which is rather high for a state school. Princeton average gpa is about 3.3 as well and we all know the student body at Princeton is clearly stronger than one at cal.

cal is a good school, but don't overate the competitiveness of the student body. med schools know cal students are not as strong as, say, columbia students on average. the tippy top students at both would be comparable, but the competition is less fierce at cal than at columbia.

however, im sure students from cal get a minor boost because their overal acceptance rate to med was 53% in 08 while the national average was 46%. cal is a very solid school but its rep wont account for .2 gpa points. that is ridiculous. if that were the case, the acceptance rate would likely be much higher. either way your mcat validates your gpa. every school will have "easy" majors and courses but a good score can help you establish yourself as a top student on a national scale.
 
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Alwaysbehopeful said:
Do medical schools take into account where you went to undergrad? I went to Berkeley where they have a 1.1 grade deflation compared to other schools. I was wondering if my GPA 3.5 will actually carry more weight b/c of how competitive my undergrad was. I know that if I went to another school I would have definitely done better and probably would have a 3.9 or 4.0 at a state school easily. Not to be conceited but the classes are just damn easier at other schools. I know some of the private schools have grade inflation. So do medical schools take all of this into account?
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UC Berkeley is a state school.

From what I understand, Med schools look at the whole package.
 
What pisses me off is that University of Washington's Bio Engineering inflates their score insanely high because most people are pre-meds. They set the mean GPA at 3.6. In Chemical Engineering on the other hand, they set the mean GPA to 2.7. Thats lame.
 
CoolWhipp said:
Cal is a state school. It is a good school, that's all the boost you will get.
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I would like to point out that you are not familiar with the term " state school" in regards to its use in the California collegiate system.

In california, there are two different kinds of public universities, you have Universities of California, such as University of California Berkeley and University of California Los Angeles and so on.
And then you have what are called California State Universities,some examples of which being San Diego State University, San Francisco State University and California Polytechnic State University ( commonly refered to as Cal Poly).
Anyone familiar with this system know that the latter of the two is the state school, and while the former are public universities, are known simply as the UC's.

I do not get the point of flamming the Op about this trivial matter anyway.

As far as prestige goes, in general University of California ( Any name ) >>(Any name )California State University
 
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This is a question I've pondered myself...

Some people claim that, "I was told/saw/explained by an ADCOM that GPAs are numerically adjusted x1.1/+.2 for more difficult schools". While GPAs from different institutions may be evaluated somewhat relatively, there is no way that a numerical adjustment is made.

Imagine that adjustments were made. What schools get additional points? Top 50? Then what about the drop from school 50-->51? Maybe a sliding point scale makes more sense, #1 Undergrad +.3, #2 Undergrad +.295, etc. How is this order established? By US News lists? I just can't imagine any system that would accurately serve the purpose of calibrating schools.

I've taken courses through various universities, and IMO, there is a wide variance in the difficultly of achieving top scores. However, I haven't felt any correlation between US News rankings and difficulty.

What I think happens: If you get a 3.5 from a top school, you are worse off than someone with a 3.6 from a lesser esteemed school. 3.5<3.6. However, for boarderline (GPA-wise) applicants, I would guess that consideration will be given to those from difficult schools. Note: This is my own personal speculation.


Edit: To the dude above attempting to distinguish between UCs and Cal States: It doesn't matter. UCB, UCLA, etc. are still state schools. They are funded by the state, are required to take x% in-state, as well as any state students graduating in the top 9% or something of their high school class. Yeah, you might not want to brag about going to Cal State Fullerton, but no future employer will go nuts when you tell him/her that you graduated from UC Santa Cruz.
 
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My personal opinion:

Undergrad matters, but it won't make up for a low GPA. In other words, if you have a high GPA at a top school, that's impressive. If you have a low or mediocre GPA at a top school, you don't get bonus points.
 
I've heard hearsay that some US schools adjust GPAs from my school +0.4. Not sure how reliable the source is, but if it's true, I'm cool with that 🙂. You can probably e-mail to ask schools if they adjust or not.
 
there is a certain school that explicitly states in a manual provided only to premedical counselors that it adjusts GPAs from "highly competitive institutions" by a "maximum" of 0.5. I don't think hard adjustments happen many other places but it will often say that a school qualitatively considers GPAs based on institutional strength and historical performance on the MCAT. so no, not all GPAs are considered equal, but it's hard to predict how much (if any) advantage your undergrad's reputation will give you.
 
When it's all been said and done, I dont think there really exists a true preference for more reputable schools. I mean, if you go to a community college, then you're at a disadvantage certainly. But there isn't much of a difference between University of Georgia and a top 20, at least from what I've seen.

It sucks. Totally unfair.
 
Adjustments of GPA are variable from school to school. I know that one specific adcom here on SDN has said that they never adjust more than .3. Remember, as far as US News is concerned, GPA is GPA. They don't compensate a school with an average GPA of 3.6 just because those students all went to hard schools. Despite what adcoms might tell you, medical schools are extremely interested in increasing or maintaining their rankings, and accepting kids with lower GPAs can only be tolerated so much. So while they might understand why you have a lower GPA because of your major/university, don't get your hopes up on how much they are going to adjust your GPA unless you have other things to bring to the table (having a higher than their average MCAT score for example).

As far as how school GPAs are judged, that seems to have to do with the average GPA and MCAT score of a given university, in terms of their applicants. Many med schools have "experts" on a large number of schools that send a lot of pre-meds their way, and I have also heard that there are databases where one can access the average stats of applicants for a given school.

For example, lets say that at Princeton the average applicant has a 3.5 and a 34. Now, lets say that at some other school the average applicant has a 3.7 and a 34. Clearly, there is some relative grade deflation between those schools. Thus, a 3.7/35 from Princeton might be viewed more favorably than a 3.7/35 from school B.
 
NotAsking4Much said:
Moral of this story is....if you want to be a doctor and you know after HS, go to a state school. Eh?
Click to expand...

No seriously, I would agree fully with this. The benefits are overwhelming.

1) Debt. If you know you're aiming for Med School, than you will have a large amount of debt to pay back. State schools will usually result in less undergrad debt which is critical.

2) Competition. Despite what people may argue, I think it's reasonable to say that your relative performance to your peers will probably look better at a state school than at some high ranked private university.

3) Life. You'll probably be able to enjoy life better by being around your old time friends, family, familiar region. Not to mention at some schools it usually means you'll have more free time. This is important because you can kiss your life goodbye when medschool/residency begin.

The real quesiton is, does the same philosophy apply for med school? Would you be better off going to your state school?
 
CoolWhipp said:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/state+university

Of course you will have brownie points above "California State Universities." This is a special case. "State Universities" in other states compete with UC's.
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I am familiar with the definition of state school, which is why i addressed the point of " in the california collegiate system " what the OP means, for those of you not from california.
I hope the search benefited you, and helped clarify your meaning what what a state school is.
I guess I should not have assumed that people knew that both CSU and UC's are, technically speaking state schools.
 
generally speaking, Berkeley kids need to stop whining about how hard their classes are. There are some state schools out there with a lower average GPA than a 3.3 🙄
 
greatnt249 said:
Really? 🙄
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Not the OP but in the same situation.
I didn't know what studying was until I went to my undergrad. For orgo I would study literally a week in advance. every night. Still ended up wiht a C (the first time). I go to my state school this past summer to take Biochemistry (should be harder than orgo right?) study off an on the night before the exams and get an A.

I love my undergrad dearly, but it screwed me.

If I could do it all again, I would probably go to my undergrad and take all my pre-med classes at state schools over the summer.
 
(Insert rhetoric about my school being harder than yours so I deserve to go to med school more than you do...)
 
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Trexate said:
(Insert rhetoric about my school being harder than yours so I deserve to go to med school more than you do...)
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I know it's a hackneyed complaint, but it's just one more obstacle, and I wish I had considered it more when I was deciding where to go for undergrad.
 
Van Chowder said:
I am familiar with the definition of state school, which is why i addressed the point of " in the california collegiate system " what the OP means, for those of you not from california.
I hope the search benefited you, and helped clarify your meaning what what a state school is.
I guess I should not have assumed that people knew that both CSU and UC's are, technically speaking state schools.
Click to expand...

Actually the link was not only for you, but for those that may need clarity on the matter. Many people, especially those in California, that have a higher education know the difference between a CSU & a UC and that they are both state schools. Your original assumption was correct.
 
Narmerguy said:
No seriously, I would agree fully with this. The benefits are overwhelming.

1) Debt. If you know you're aiming for Med School, than you will have a large amount of debt to pay back. State schools will usually result in less undergrad debt which is critical.

2) Competition. Despite what people may argue, I think it's reasonable to say that your relative performance to your peers will probably look better at a state school than at some high ranked private university.

3) Life. You'll probably be able to enjoy life better by being around your old time friends, family, familiar region. Not to mention at some schools it usually means you'll have more free time. This is important because you can kiss your life goodbye when medschool/residency begin.

The real quesiton is, does the same philosophy apply for med school? Would you be better off going to your state school?
Click to expand...
To play devil's advocate, I didn't go to a UC (from Cali) or state school and opted for a private one...

Actually private ones sometimes is less competitive than state schools. Yes maybe the competition is more fierce, but the curve is set differently.

More importantly, private schools, esp the ones with the larger endowments, have more $$. With that, there just tend to be more opportunities. Opportunities to do cool ECs, opportunities for research, funding for research, etc.

As for life - you'll adapt, whichever school you'll go. I don't think because you're at a private school, it'll make you "less happy" than a state one.

Lastly - for debt...I think it depends on what kind of private school you go to. For mine - any family with net income < $100k = free tuition. A lot of other schools are doing it too. Unfortunately, I don't qualify but it's a pretty sweet deal.
 
I went to Berkeley and knew plenty of people with 3.7+ GPAs majoring in the sciences. Basically, you might think adcoms see Berkeley's grade deflation and act accordingly, but that isn't going to help lower-GPA applicants much when there are so many other applicants from the school with good GPAs despite the "grade deflation."
 
I'm glad that the MCAT exists, so that people can't really say "it's so unfair because I went to school X". Obviously the MCAT is just one exam versus four years of education and testing, but if someone claims to have a low GPA simply because they went to such a tough school, they should have the high MCAT to back that up.
 
Alwaysbehopeful said:
Do medical schools take into account where you went to undergrad? I went to Berkeley where they have a 1.1 grade deflation compared to other schools. I was wondering if my GPA 3.5 will actually carry more weight b/c of how competitive my undergrad was. I know that if I went to another school I would have definitely done better and probably would have a 3.9 or 4.0 at a state school easily. Not to be conceited but the classes are just damn easier at other schools. I know some of the private schools have grade inflation. So do medical schools take all of this into account?
Click to expand...

It doesn't mean much since the MCAT is a great equalizer. However, if MCAT scores are 40+ and GPA's are 3.9+ then school name and prestige will play a large role.
 
NotAsking4Much said:
Moral of this story is....if you want to be a doctor and you know after HS, go to a state school. Eh?
Click to expand...

To make life way easier on yourself & avoid unnecessary stress? Yeah.
Or a cushy unknown private with no admission standards & thus no competition..

Also, I think there's a distinction to be made b/t 'state schools' like Cal, and those like rest of the UC's (Irvine, Riverside, Santa Barbara in particular). I don't even go there, (only have friends that do), and my hat still goes off to people who wind up with a strong GPA.

And to those who don't, from any school, and want to perpetuate this GPA "bump" nonsense:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 
You know you to completely honest I know for a FACT that state schools are EASY. I attended UPenn as an undergrad and it is extremely competitive and the grades are very much deflated. I had to study for weeks in advance of a midterm only to earn a C+; however, I did a postbacc program at UMaryland and have a 3.8. This really concerns me because my gpa from UPenn is 3.22 and my gpa from UMD 3.8. To top it off I have been scoring 34-35 on practice MCAT well above average....all that being said students at top schools absolutely deserve "special" consideration because in reality they likely more prepared for med school than the student from the state school with a sky high GPA and average MCATS...at least thats what i tell myself lol
 
UPennPrincess said:
You know you to completely honest I know for a FACT that state schools are EASY. I attended UPenn as an undergrad and it is extremely competitive and the grades are very much deflated. I had to study for weeks in advance of a midterm only to earn a C+; however, I did a postbacc program at UMaryland and have a 3.8. This really concerns me because my gpa from UPenn is 3.22 and my gpa from UMD 3.8. To top it off I have been scoring 34-35 on practice MCAT well above average....all that being said students at top schools absolutely deserve "special" consideration because in reality they likely more prepared for med school than the student from the state school with a sky high GPA and average MCATS...at least thats what i tell myself lol
Click to expand...

That's a sample size of two schools for one person. It doesn't allow one to generalize about the two schools and certainly not about all state schools versus all private schools. Also, from what I've seen on these forums, people get much higher postbacc gpa's than undergrad gpa's (I have no idea why, probably not in general because they choose an easier school for postbacc), so that's the best explanation I can come up with for the GPA discrepancy.
 
UPennPrincess said:
You know you to completely honest I know for a FACT that state schools are EASY. I attended UPenn as an undergrad and it is extremely competitive and the grades are very much deflated. I had to study for weeks in advance of a midterm only to earn a C+; however, I did a postbacc program at UMaryland and have a 3.8. This really concerns me because my gpa from UPenn is 3.22 and my gpa from UMD 3.8. To top it off I have been scoring 34-35 on practice MCAT well above average....all that being said students at top schools absolutely deserve "special" consideration because in reality they likely more prepared for med school than the student from the state school with a sky high GPA and average MCATS...at least thats what i tell myself lol
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doesnt count until you take the mcat and do well! 🙂
 
Three Points:

1. Redlight... I am sooo excited about the MCAT because although challenging from what can see (from my prep course) it is easier than any undergrad science test I have taken at Penn

2. I am not literally saying that I have surveyed all public and private schools and know private is harder. I am talking about TOP SCHOOLS more specifically Penn the home of one of the most sought after med schools...u would be a fool to think their undergrad pre-meds arent challenged more than at ur random state school

3. As for post-baccs schools people absolutely choose schools that they think that can do "improve" at....easier schools. If I am trying to bench press my GPA why would I return to Penn or an equally challenging school?

PS I hear Penn gives their undergrads special consideration because of the vigor of undergrad courses I was told (off the record) that even with my GPA...UPenn preference, a good MCAT score, and my URM status will get me an interview
 
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UPennPrincess said:
Three Points:

1. Redlight... I am sooo excited about the MCAT because although challenging from what can see (from my prep course) it is easier than any undergrad science test I have taken at Penn

2. I am not literally saying that I have surveyed all public and private schools and know private is harder. I am talking about TOP SCHOOLS more specifically Penn the home of one of the most sought after med schools...u would be a fool to think their undergrad pre-meds arent challenged more than at ur random state school

3. As for post-baccs schools people absolutely choose schools that they think that can do "improve" at....easier schools. If I am trying to bench press my GPA why would I return to Penn or an equally challenging school?

PS I hear Penn gives their undergrads special consideration because of the vigor of undergrad courses I was told (off the record) that even with my GPA...UPenn preference, a good MCAT score, and my URM status will get me an interview
Click to expand...


Just be sure to wear a lot of perfume / cologne. Otherwise they're likely to smell that arrogance a mile away...
 
UPennPrincess said:
You know you to completely honest I know for a FACT that state schools are EASY. I attended UPenn as an undergrad and it is extremely competitive and the grades are very much deflated. I had to study for weeks in advance of a midterm only to earn a C+; however, I did a postbacc program at UMaryland and have a 3.8. This really concerns me because my gpa from UPenn is 3.22 and my gpa from UMD 3.8. To top it off I have been scoring 34-35 on practice MCAT well above average....all that being said students at top schools absolutely deserve "special" consideration because in reality they likely more prepared for med school than the student from the state school with a sky high GPA and average MCATS...at least thats what i tell myself lol
Click to expand...

You are the perfect definition of "whining arrogance"; until reading this post, I had no clue there was such a thing.🙄
 
UPennPrincess said:
Three Points:

1. Redlight... I am sooo excited about the MCAT because although challenging from what can see (from my prep course) it is easier than any undergrad science test I have taken at Penn

2. I am not literally saying that I have surveyed all public and private schools and know private is harder. I am talking about TOP SCHOOLS more specifically Penn the home of one of the most sought after med schools...u would be a fool to think their undergrad pre-meds arent challenged more than at ur random state school

3. As for post-baccs schools people absolutely choose schools that they think that can do "improve" at....easier schools. If I am trying to bench press my GPA why would I return to Penn or an equally challenging school?

PS I hear Penn gives their undergrads special consideration because of the vigor of undergrad courses I was told (off the record) that even with my GPA...UPenn preference, a good MCAT score, and my URM status will get me an interview
Click to expand...

Good Lord; save this rant for your interviews and see where it gets you.

Interviewer: So, why medicine?
Princess: Well obviously, by sheer virtue of having attended the University of Pennsylvania, I should think it's perfectly clear why medicine is right for me. You should be so lucky to have this Ivy Leaguer in your ranks.
Interviewer:...

🙄
 
UPennPrincess said:
Three Points:

1. Redlight... I am sooo excited about the MCAT because although challenging from what can see (from my prep course) it is easier than any undergrad science test I have taken at Penn

2. I am not literally saying that I have surveyed all public and private schools and know private is harder. I am talking about TOP SCHOOLS more specifically Penn the home of one of the most sought after med schools...u would be a fool to think their undergrad pre-meds arent challenged more than at ur random state school

3. As for post-baccs schools people absolutely choose schools that they think that can do "improve" at....easier schools. If I am trying to bench press my GPA why would I return to Penn or an equally challenging school?

PS I hear Penn gives their undergrads special consideration because of the vigor of undergrad courses I was told (off the record) that even with my GPA...UPenn preference, a good MCAT score, and my URM status will get me an interview
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'd take my 43 MCAT, 3.94 GPA from a state school (Cal), and prestigious research fellowships over your UPenn preference, lower UPenn GPA, good MCAT score, and underrepresented status.

Seriously... don't be so arrogant about going to an Ivy as a URM; it only undermines the validity of affirmative action. I dont' post much and don't care much for stats anymore, but I think you should redirect your "confidence" towards your schoolwork.
 
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Beren said:
Sorry, I'd take my 43 MCAT, 3.94 GPA from a state school (Cal), and prestigious research fellowships over your UPenn preference, lower UPenn GPA, good MCAT score, and underrepresented status.

Seriously... don't be so arrogant about going to an Ivy as a URM; it only undermines the validity of affirmative action.
Click to expand...

Correction: she doesn't have a good MCAT score. She just thinks she'll get one because it's "such a breeze."
 
UPennPrincess said:
Three Points:

1. Redlight... I am sooo excited about the MCAT because although challenging from what can see (from my prep course) it is easier than any undergrad science test I have taken at Penn

2. I am not literally saying that I have surveyed all public and private schools and know private is harder. I am talking about TOP SCHOOLS more specifically Penn the home of one of the most sought after med schools...u would be a fool to think their undergrad pre-meds arent challenged more than at ur random state school

3. As for post-baccs schools people absolutely choose schools that they think that can do "improve" at....easier schools. If I am trying to bench press my GPA why would I return to Penn or an equally challenging school?

PS I hear Penn gives their undergrads special consideration because of the vigor of undergrad courses I was told (off the record) that even with my GPA...UPenn preference, a good MCAT score, and my URM status will get me an interview
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No offense: I come from Stanford, a school that can easily rival if not surpass Penn on many standards, so I hope you believe me when I say...

You need a reality check.
 
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I have never met a pre-med who thought his/her undergrad was easier than average.

Try looking up "Lake Wobegon effect" on wikipedia.
 
NotAsking4Much said:
No offense: I come from Stanford, a school that can easily rival if not surpass Penn on many standards, so I hope you believe me when I say...

You need a reality check.
Click to expand...


Well, the weather is certainly better at STanford, I will grant you that - and the girls are more attractive, and the athletic teams are far superior to those at Penn. And Stanford is more laid back, if you like laid back, which I do, most of the time.
 
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