Undergrad Competitiveness?
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mmmcdowe
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Which Dean out of curiousity (not trying to discredit you or anything, as I am inclined to agree for the most part).
It would be close. I think the UMD might get in a little faster just it seems that many medical schools tend to favor MCAT averages over GPA, but that's just speculation on my part. If a 34 was above average for the school in question they'd both probably get in with a good resume to attach to it.
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Hardly ... I know plenty of people who learn and retain things better than I do. However, I worked hard because I never took anything for granted - my grades, undergraduate institution, or ethnicity.
There are ppl like that at your school too, and they will be the ones getting into the top schools.
Secondly, only an interview is necessary to distinguish between a 3.6 from Harvard and 3.9 from Berkeley. Who has taken more difficult classes, learned more, or engaged in more meaningful activities will become apparent. Even with a 3.6, a Harvard grad may be missing out on some of the opportunities that the 3.9 will get.
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Sweet. It makes you wonder why anyone would choose Cal over UCLA where you get the true college experience. I mean, why wouldn't you go to UCLA?
Maybe people go to Cal if they feel uncomfortable being surrounded by a lot of goodlooking guys and girls.
This discussion about MCAT and GPA is so useless. You guys can't say anything with a decent confidence level.
That said, talking about state schools and such. If I were to use your logic about graduate programs, then your highness would agree that Berkeley would be the best place to do your undergrad. Considering all their graduate education programs are ranked in the top 5 consecutively every year. And, their medical school is basically UCSF.
But, lets ignore this small fact because UPENN IS THE BESTEST EVER!!!!🙄
That said, talking about state schools and such. If I were to use your logic about graduate programs, then your highness would agree that Berkeley would be the best place to do your undergrad. Considering all their graduate education programs are ranked in the top 5 consecutively every year. And, their medical school is basically UCSF.
But, lets ignore this small fact because UPENN IS THE BESTEST EVER!!!!🙄
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Med schools know cal students are not as strong as, say, columbia students on average. the tippy top students at both would be comparable, but the competition is less fierce at cal than at columbia.
Well one thing is for sure: If you go to a small school such as my own and 75% of the people that you meet mispronounce it, your chances of getting into a medical school don't go up.
I think everyone here needs to calm down and take a step back. Nobody cares where you went to school (unless you think that matters). Go to a school you'll enjoy and where you are a good "fit". I've visited my state school and frankly, I know I've had more fun at my "prestigious" university than I ever would have at my state school. But some people prefer state school. Moral of the story: go to a school that makes you happy, and you will be successful AND have a great time doing it.
Pretentious people FTL.
Pretentious people FTL.
That is so true. I go to a small private SDA undergrad in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't really matter if our classes are hard or easy because a lot of medical schools haven't heard of us anyway.
Unless you go to Amherst, Williams, or Swarthmore.
hahaha. if Stanfurd girls are more attractive than UPenn's girls... then DAMN UPenn girls must be
that was probably mean.
....this is one of the reasons why affirmative action needs to go the way of the walkman.
Princess, you need to get over yourself.
Darn, now I'll look like I'm just trying to disprove you when I say that I think mine may actually be easier than average.
However, on second thought, it strongly depends on the professors you get. Some of my professors have extremely super easy classes, some give harder-than-standard-bell fits to their class grades. I think it's safe to say that students who managed to some how get all of the "easy" professors may actually have higher GPA's than those who get the "hard" ones. I would expect this to be true of ANY university.
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I hold that actually for both guys and girls...in general...and a weak correlation at best but an correlation nonetheless, attractiveness and intelligence are inversely correlated.hahaha. if Stanfurd girls are more attractive than UPenn's girls... then DAMN UPenn girls must be
that was probably mean.
Makes sense...both get you far in society, evolution picks which one you'll spend your time on.
mmmcdowe
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One of my friends who went to an Ivy for undergrad gave me such a kick when he said that now that he was here in NYC he had to take his "Harvard Goggles" off.
That's really interesting... I would have to say, however, that my undergrad is easier than average in terms of securing high grades in difficult classes, for the most part. The courses are still quite rigorous, but I suspect that many A students here would be B students elsewhere. Just my opinion.
In any case, the MCAT, for better or worse, equalizes all. Lower GPA Ivy Leaguers could definitely redeem themselves somewhat by rocking the MCAT, but then again, so could a state school student. Low GPA will always hurt you, however, there's no doubt about that.
I'm 99% sure that nobody on this forum would recognize the name of my school if I were to post it, and the admissions people I spoke to at my last interview certainly didn't recognize it, but a high GPA and MCAT speak louder than a name brand school, and people from my no-name undergrad have gotten into prestigious schools across the country. It can and has been done.
That's not exactly true... Lower GPA Ivy Leaguers are still very much hurt by their low GPA's, even if they rock the MCAT.
True. An Ivy Leaguer who has a 3.0 GPA and a 40 MCAT is basically on equal footing with a State Schooler who has a 4.0 GPA and a 30 MCAT.
True +1, easily.
Yeah, that's actually what my point was, that a high MCAT redeems state school students as much as it redeems an Ivy Leaguer. If there's one thing you don't want to have going into this process, it's a low GPA. Low MCAT's can be retaken, lack of EC's can be compensated for fairly quickly, or you can take a year off to fix either of these factors. A year off will not fix a 3.0 GPA, though.
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considering penn is the first medical school of the country... i think lots of people care.
i might be wrong about this, but isn't penn med ranked higher then yale med?
A prime example of why people from these schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford) get stamped as pretentious. You are not helping.
I think that it is not that important where one goes to undergrad. It is more important to save that money for a good grad/med school. The MCAT is the great equalizer.
Eh...people on the West Coast aren't that pretentious, at least I don't feel it at Stanford.
I do think it does matter where you go for undergraduate. For example, applying for jobs, it makes a huge difference. Sure - if you plan on going to grad school right after, then your highest degree will speak for itself.
I can make the same argument that one does not to get into the best med school to be a successful doctor (albeit for law and biz school rankings mean everything...the difference between the top biz schools and rank #30 is like a 2x difference in starting income).
More importantly though...take a look at this:
http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/harvarddean/?ref=global-home
Parents of middle school and elementary school asking how to get their kid into "Ivies"?
What happened to children...um...playing in the field?
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Penn is more highly regarded by the rank and file, but Yale is preferred by the laid back eccentric.
mmmcdowe
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I prefer Yale to Penn, but only because of Yale's amazingilicious library of historical medical works.😍
I was just lumping the Ive's together, I have nothing against anyone who goes to these schools. I just think people like that give them a bad name.
You are right that if you are going straight to the job market it matters. Especially if you are looking for work in the same geographical area as a state school. But if you go to Harvard you could probably major in basket weaving and still get a job anywhere you want in the country.
Ummm... Berekeley, Penn, and Cornell are definitely top schools in almost any field. And they do have difficult curriculum.
Yale? Please, what is Yale good at anyway? I've always wondered what the hype is about.
www.harvardrejects.org
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This is turning into the most pretentious thread ever. I'm sort of glad I'm not at a school that could never in any definition of the word be considered elite or Ivy or anything of the sort. Yet I'm pretty sure I'm going to med school next year... weird. 😛
Oh yea well.. My schools better than your school, my schools better than your school. Na-na-na-na-na-na. (in kid like teasing voice).
Wow I totally forget I even posted on this thread or created this thread?
Anyways, my AMCAS came out to be 3.55! That is awesome....didn't know they were going to count my JC courses I took in High school and some other random ones.
1. I only asked b/c a Standford Admissions man told me that Berkeley has a 1.1 grade deflation.
2. I'm a girl...not a man.
3. Sorry I said "state school", I meant not a UC.
But damn people, is everyone on this thread so cynical? I now kind of know why my friend refuses to go on this website....
For the person that said they knew plenty of 3.7+...so you didn't know anyone with a 3.5? Really...cuz I knew a lot of 3.2-3.98 Berkeley students who applied for medical school. Actually my friend with a 3.3 and 33 MCAT and a couple Fs in pre-reqs (had to re-take) got in to several schools. Sure he could be an exception, I'm just saying don't be so gloomy. Do you just like to hang out with 3.7 only people? If you look at the spreadsheet for Berkeley, it seems that 3.4-3.6 and 30-35 actually had more students entering than anything above.
Okay so basically my GPA is not going to be considered to be better but I think getting 4 A+ in class of 300-400 is still pretty awesome at Berkeley even though my overall GPA is lower.
Okay I'm done. I probably won't be returning for a while so have fun at taking a part this post and criticizing every little details. I'm not mad, just very amused at pre-med online dynamics.
Anyways, my AMCAS came out to be 3.55! That is awesome....didn't know they were going to count my JC courses I took in High school and some other random ones.
1. I only asked b/c a Standford Admissions man told me that Berkeley has a 1.1 grade deflation.
2. I'm a girl...not a man.
3. Sorry I said "state school", I meant not a UC.
But damn people, is everyone on this thread so cynical? I now kind of know why my friend refuses to go on this website....
For the person that said they knew plenty of 3.7+...so you didn't know anyone with a 3.5? Really...cuz I knew a lot of 3.2-3.98 Berkeley students who applied for medical school. Actually my friend with a 3.3 and 33 MCAT and a couple Fs in pre-reqs (had to re-take) got in to several schools. Sure he could be an exception, I'm just saying don't be so gloomy. Do you just like to hang out with 3.7 only people? If you look at the spreadsheet for Berkeley, it seems that 3.4-3.6 and 30-35 actually had more students entering than anything above.
Okay so basically my GPA is not going to be considered to be better but I think getting 4 A+ in class of 300-400 is still pretty awesome at Berkeley even though my overall GPA is lower.
Okay I'm done. I probably won't be returning for a while so have fun at taking a part this post and criticizing every little details. I'm not mad, just very amused at pre-med online dynamics.
haha!
I remember those days. I was a freshman and sophomore at UC Berkeley. I felt that I had been dealt a poor hand. Why are my classes so hard and so competitive? Classes can't be this hard elsewhere....
So I decided that Berkeley was especially hard, that it harmed my chances to getting into medical school, that I should have gone to an "easier school."
Upon graduation, I realized this: "what a cheap way to delude myself."
The fact is this. Plenty of people from self-proclaimed competitive schools get 3.7+ GPAs and pursue amazing extracurriculars at the same time. And they are the people who, with or without inflation or deflation, will get into medical school.
As is the case for any applicant, at any school.
So this is my advice: Treat it like you don't get any bonus points for your school. For plenty of people at Cal don't need bonus points to get into medical school.
Why should you?
In retrospect, my own advice would have changed my mentality as I approached my studies during Cal. Playing victim to one's circumstance is sad and unrealistic.
Here is an example of annoyingness and judging based on what?....... I'm not saying boo hoo poor me. I'm not freaking stupid...obvious someone with a 3.8 is going to be look more competitive than me (3.55). Duh....didn't need you to tell me this....get over yourself.
What I was wondering was more like what if there was someone else with similar stats, will I be more competitive coming from a more competitive school? If not then I should have gone to CHICO state or something.
All I wanted were some personal experiences from people that previously applied and not for someone to call me "sad and unrealistic".....yes I just so sad...oh look at me...a poor victim.. of a hard school...
I need to leave this forum before I hate all pre-meds. Thanks everyone else for leaving me construct and non-personal comments...
I'm not done ranting I guess...
I HATE how people are saying that I think Berkeley is the hardest school...I didn't compare it to the IVY Leagues or anything. I was comparing it to a CSU.
How are we all involved in scientific thinking and research and yet make all these stupid assumptions based on one little thread?
Where did you get that people from Berkeley, Cornell, UPENN are the MOST adamant about the difficulty? Where are the facts and numbers?
This thread was a big mistake. I had no idea people were going to be such pretentious, judgmental, annoying, I could go on.
This is NOT targeted at everyone who have posted. Many of you have left good comments but some just simply need to learn how to not judge and state facts...not lame assumptions to fit the facts that they think are true.
I HATE how people are saying that I think Berkeley is the hardest school...I didn't compare it to the IVY Leagues or anything. I was comparing it to a CSU.
How are we all involved in scientific thinking and research and yet make all these stupid assumptions based on one little thread?
Where did you get that people from Berkeley, Cornell, UPENN are the MOST adamant about the difficulty? Where are the facts and numbers?
This thread was a big mistake. I had no idea people were going to be such pretentious, judgmental, annoying, I could go on.
This is NOT targeted at everyone who have posted. Many of you have left good comments but some just simply need to learn how to not judge and state facts...not lame assumptions to fit the facts that they think are true.
Love how this adds no substance to the thread, but rather s**ts on it some more. Especially the bit about "Yale people forget that Penn is even in the ivy league." Thank you, you random pos of society.
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Agreed. I had a few science professors that were really tough. I pretty much picked them randomly, but I chose well. I knew some people who had other professors that didn't prepare them well at all.
i stopped reading right there
i'm sick of hearing whinewhinewhine i deserve a better gpa/grade. you're not entitled to anything. get over yourself.
I'm sick of hearing whinewhinewhine about people whining. You're not entitled to ruin this thread. Get some better ideas to contribute to the thread.
my comments ruin the thread?
please, it was a trainwreck to begin with.
i love how the OP is saying people are being pretentious when she's the one trying to justify preferential treatment.
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I went to a rural public high school, a state school for undergrad, a state school for post-bacc and a state school for med school. I much rather cheer for my sports teams than an ivy league. Nobody gives a damn once you are accepted. I seriously don't know why people are even bickering about this crap. Until you attend every school for every class you have NO clue how rigorous one school is over the other. It isn't like they give you more information at other schools. Undergrad means crap. The only thing it does is let you place a nice little window decal in your car.
I went to Yale and our pre-med advising office compiles statistics for average GPA's and MCAT scores for admitted students by school. Right now, they have data from 2000-2008 with over 1000 applicants. In general, the average GPA's for admitted students from Yale are LESS than the median GPA's from the MSAR (I realize that the average and the median are not the same, but let's assume that they are roughly equal). For top-tier medical schools, the difference is generally around 0.1 or less, but for other schools, the difference can be around 0.2-0.3 or even more.
That being said, MCAT scores are generally bang on with what's in the MSAR. If there's a discrepancy, it's usually because there is a small sample size (i.e. not very many applicants applied and were accepted to that particular school).
If I were to speak generally, I don't know if coming from Yale or another "competitive" program like Berkeley puts an applicant at an overall advantage. On the whole, the numbers, at least from Yale, don't really suggest that. What I would infer from this data is that med schools generally use the MCAT as a standard to compare applicants apples to apples.
Relating back to the OP, I would say that, on average in the application process, your MCAT will play a much more significant role than the name of your school when comparing your GPA to another candidate from another school.
That being said, MCAT scores are generally bang on with what's in the MSAR. If there's a discrepancy, it's usually because there is a small sample size (i.e. not very many applicants applied and were accepted to that particular school).
If I were to speak generally, I don't know if coming from Yale or another "competitive" program like Berkeley puts an applicant at an overall advantage. On the whole, the numbers, at least from Yale, don't really suggest that. What I would infer from this data is that med schools generally use the MCAT as a standard to compare applicants apples to apples.
Relating back to the OP, I would say that, on average in the application process, your MCAT will play a much more significant role than the name of your school when comparing your GPA to another candidate from another school.
Well said. At a certain point it gets pretty subjective. For instance, is there really that much of a difference between an education at a #10 school as appose to a #1 school? I kind of doubt it. All professors are human, they can only teach so well (if you don't end up getting a TA). Further, different schools have better departments than others. There could be an absolutely brilliant professor at a state school teaching a class, and a mediocre professor at Harvard teaching that same class. Do you get what I mean?
mmmcdowe
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Just as important, a famous professor is not necessarily a good teacher. My best teachers were Associates.
