Undergrad gpa vs. Post Bac gpa

[beterltthnnever]

My undergrad is in business, I was young and foolish and my GPA reflects this. I graduated with a 2.3. Now 4 years removed and 27 years old, I am back in school pursuing a pre-med degree in biology. When med-schools look at my history, would receiving an additional degree with great grades improve my chances? Or should I complete the required courses with equally stellar marks and try to get in without another Bachelors? I am more than willing to put in the time but if that could be avoided it would greatly speed this process along.

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[Savantrice]

I'm in almost the same position...27yo, English major though, with a 2.5undergrad (that extra 0.2 making all the difference 🙄). I started an informal post-bacc and retook any prereqs I had that were below a B, then I took upper level science courses (Genetics, Toxicology, Physiology, Pathophys, Biochem) and nailed them. I've got a 3.92 now with almost 60 credit hours post-bachelors. I made sure I submitted my AMCAS before August (though it really should have been before July)...so far I've got two interviews (my state schools)...praying fervently for more.

So, no, i dont think you need to go to the extent of getting another bachelors (unless you need the financial aid? as a non-degree seeking (technically) grad student I didnt get jack, so that sucked.) just take the classes, make sure you get the grades and APPLY EARLY.

do note that post-bacc classes are looked at separately, and not calculated with your undergrad gpa to my knowledge. the choice is yours but I'd try just taking the classes and see how that goes. if you like check with ur school to see if any classes you take as a non-degree student can be applied to your major if you decide to pursue a major a few semesters later.

anyway, your not alone. Good luck w/ whatever you decide

 

[Nasem]

well... if your going to weight UG GPA alone VS post-bacc GPA,
the UG will have alot more credit hours (maybe up to 2 times as many as the post-bacc), however, the post-bacc will reflect your most RECENT upward trend.

I always think that your OVERALL gpa (combination of your UG and post-bacc) is the most important GPA, but if your going to weight UG vs post-bacc alone, I would think that the post-bacc "should" weight in a little more due to the fact thats it your most recent accomplishment in terms of academics and maturity

as far as getting a 2nd bachelors goes vs a post-bacc.... if you have the time for a 2nd bachelors, go for it, I don't think it makes your application THAT much stronger since both a 2nd degree and a post-bacc count exactly the same way in your UG gpa.... but its always cool to say you have 2 bachelor degrees

 

[bouspret]

Some schools will never forgive you UG GPA, and others only look at your post-back, master's and completed pre-reqs. Apply to a large number of schools early and prepare to get a few rejections. I'm nearly in the same boat. I had to get a M.S. to improve my undergrad GPA.

 

[2008orbust]

Well, I can only attest to MSU, but they most assuredly have overlooked a bad UG if there is STRONG evidence to support that you have changed your ways. I did horrible in my UG a dozen years ago. But I pulled a 3.78 in my second degree and was very top of my class for my masters. MSU claims on their website that they look at grades/grade trends. I gambled on that and it paid off. (THEY ROCK). My trend was very very strong after a awful start and they chose to focus on my upward trend and not my icky grades from the early 90s.

There is hope. There is always hope.

 

[postbacker]

well... if your going to weight UG GPA alone VS post-bacc GPA,
the UG will have alot more credit hours (maybe up to 2 times as many as the post-bacc), however, the post-bacc will reflect your most RECENT upward trend.

I always think that your OVERALL gpa (combination of your UG and post-bacc) is the most important GPA, but if your going to weight UG vs post-bacc alone, I would think that the post-bacc "should" weight in a little more due to the fact thats it your most recent accomplishment in terms of academics and maturity

as far as getting a 2nd bachelors goes vs a post-bacc.... if you have the time for a 2nd bachelors, go for it, I don't think it makes your application THAT much stronger since both a 2nd degree and a post-bacc count exactly the same way in your UG gpa.... but its always cool to say you have 2 bachelor degrees

Not sure about this, but since they capture the BCMP GPA and report it separately, the post bacc grades in effect are "weighted" more heavily...

 

[njbmd]

My undergrad is in business, I was young and foolish and my GPA reflects this. I graduated with a 2.3. Now 4 years removed and 27 years old, I am back in school pursuing a pre-med degree in biology. When med-schools look at my history, would receiving an additional degree with great grades improve my chances? Or should I complete the required courses with equally stellar marks and try to get in without another Bachelors? I am more than willing to put in the time but if that could be avoided it would greatly speed this process along.

Postbacc is not "weighted" above any other undergraduate coursework but doing well in your post bacc work will raise your overall undergraduate GPA (can be a very long process if you have hundreds of hours of previously poor work) and will show an upward trend. Your 2.3 in business would not have been enough to come close to getting into any medical school in this country and thus doing the post bacc work (and doing extremely well with no grade less than B+) will increase your chances of getting into medical school.

Again, getting a complete second bachelor's will add hours (and if you do well improvement) to your overall undergraduate GPA and thus will increase your chances but as Savantrice said, unless you need to be in a degree program for financial aid reasons or priority registration reasons, you don't NEED a complete second bachelor's degree you just need hours of excellent coursework to offset as much as possible, your previously poor coursework.

 

[jamilla_w]

I can say that based on my experience you're screwed if you don't do well in UG unless you have some amazing other aspects to your application.

3.0 undergraduate GPA, 3.7 Masters, 3.7 post bac & 3.3 cumulative UGPA; 30 MCAT --> no interviews

I think they basically only look at your cumulative GPA

 

[Nasem]

I can say that based on my experience you're screwed if you don't do well in UG unless you have some amazing other aspects to your application.

3.0 undergraduate GPA, 3.7 Masters, 3.7 post bac & 3.3 cumulative UGPA; 30 MCAT --> no interviews

I think they basically only look at your cumulative GPA

I am a bit surprised about this, a 3.3 is on the low side of the national avg but its NOT that low, and your mcat is fine...
How many schools did you apply to and what is your state of residence?

 

[Savantrice]

and also...what type of schools are you applying to...mid/low-tier or predominantly upper?

 

[Lizzie Bartlet]

Plus, it's only October. I think it's too soon -- and a bit cruel -- to share your experience as anecdotal evidence that people are "screwed."

 

[utahjazz]

Plus, it's only October. I think it's too soon -- and a bit cruel -- to share your experience as anecdotal evidence that people are "screwed."

lol. I don't think they are screwed either, but unless you get your cumulative GPA above a certain level you definitely have an uphill climb. My 3.34 cumulative GPA has gotten me screened out even with a 3.8 postbac in only upper division bio and ochem classes.

 

[postbacker]

lol. I don't think they are screwed either, but unless you get your cumulative GPA above a certain level you definitely have an uphill climb. My 3.34 cumulative GPA has gotten me screened out even with a 3.8 postbac in only upper division bio and ochem classes.

GPA range of 3.1 tp 3.4 seems to be "no man's land" for med school admissions...some make it through, but it seems most don't...at least that is a pretty good GPA for an SMP which is what I would probably do...

 

[Lshapley]

I'm on the upper fringes of that no man's land, with a 3.36 cum and 3.39 bpcm (undergrad was 3.3 overall and 3.2 bpcm). The postbac gpa is 3.87 and the mcat is 32, both of which I am hoping make up for the lower overall. Got one interview so far. Hopefully I'll make it through no man's land!

 

[AdamB]

I think postbacker is referring to the 3.1-3.4 being no man's land for people who have not completed a post-bac. I would probably say that if you had a GPA of at least 3.0 in your original UG and you do well in a post bac program (3.8 or above) along with a competitive MCAT score then you are probably in good shape if you apply broadly as long as everything else checks out (decent ECs, LORs, interview, etc.) You are definitely good for a DO but I am thinking you would probably land at a middle of the road MD school somewhere without too many problems.

That being said, anything less than that is going to show up as a black eye and you will have some "splainin" to do. It certainly isn't impossible but you will have an uphill battle.

 

[drizzt3117]

The problem is the op is a lot worse off than most of the ppl posting. With a 2.3 ug gpa, the op would have to do another full degree at 4.0 to raise their gpa to 3.15. After that they would need a high mcat and probably a smp. This is also assuming they can get an A in every class for 4 years. Fail at any one of those things and they wont get in. Im as supportive as anyone here, but there is a point where your dreams are just not realistic, and this situation may be just that. Sorry, but thats my 0.02.

 

[drizzt3117]

Btw, some caribbean schools may be an option, but even that will be tough.

 

[CultureDoc]

Ok, back the train up here. The OP is not asking whether or not s/he should do this whole med school thing but whether s/he should go for the 2nd bachelor's or the post-bacc, so the "you're screwed" sentiments are not cool . . . particularly as this is his/her first post. (Welcome! and way to go, by the way! 😀)

My advice is something I wish someone would have told me when I first thought "well, that didn't work, how about med school!" I dove headfirst into the classes, but not the lifestyle. EXTRACURRICULARS ARE RIDICULOUSLY IMPORTANT. Your grades are not going to set you apart and might cause you to be screened out at some schools, but for the others, you MUST have something on that application that says "This person is extraordinary. This person WANTS this." Volunteer . . . a lot . . . for a cause or a place (or a few!) that shows your humility, compassion, and desire to truly "help people" (e.g. free clinic in underserved area). Everyone who applies to medical school wants to help people - you won't ever need to vocalize this if you can show it through the time you put in AND the initiative you take. That's key as well - don't just put in your time - be a leader. Maybe organize something: a blood drive, a charity event, etc. You went to business school . . . that could be a huge asset in this area! And shadow a doctor . . . or a few over a decent amount of time. It's essential to understand what it's actually like "in the trenches." Maybe seek out some sort of immersion experience - like going to a third world country to aid in delivering health care services. Or seek out a research experience (maybe the second bachelor's would provide you with that experience.) Also, befriend your profs! Talk to them, ask questions, be an engaged student. My intro bio prof had told all of us from the get-go that if there was something we were interested in to talk to him about it - he would be happy to mentor any post-bacc in a research project. Why didn't I do that? I don't know, but I certainly wish I had.

In sum, BE PROACTIVE. A few substantive experiences are key (don't try to do all of the above, though - padding the resume is transparent). Also, if there is something you love to do now (run, play an instrument, etc.) don't give that up because you're too busy. Adcomms like to see that you have sustained interests outside of the medical realm (or so I am told). (Sidebar: I really wish I hadn't dropped the clarinet like a bad habit after college graduation . . . I should have joined a community band. it would have been fun, and I could have demonstrated that i have a life outside of class, other than watching copious amounts of TV with my husband. )

Anyway, all of these experiences will:
(a) strengthen your desire to practice medicine (or make you realize you've made a mistake - which would ok too - better than realizing this as an M1, 2,3, or 4)
(b) help you develop close relationships with mentor-type people, who could then truly speak to your abilities, character, tenacity, generosity, etc - in other words, they can "testify" to the adcomms that you have what it takes. Letters of recommendation are an area where you could shine.

Yes, you need to get amazing grades in whichever you choose to do - post-bacc or second bachelor's. But you also need to think outside of the "grades and test scores are everything" box. I didn't, and I can't stop kicking myself now that I'm applying and I have no solid evidence on my application that I'm really interested in being a doctor. 🙁

Finally, whenever you're ready to apply, apply early (it's practically the SDN motto, so you'll see that on here a lot. 👍) That's another reason I'm kicking myself now! But, the eternal optimist, I know it will work out for me eventually, and you have to believe that as well. 🙂

Good luck!!!

(and sorry to everyone for the long post 😳)

 

[drizzt3117]

Ok, back the train up here. The OP is not asking whether or not s/he should do this whole med school thing but whether s/he should go for the 2nd bachelor's or the post-bacc, so the "you're screwed" sentiments are not cool . . . particularly as this is his/her first post. (Welcome! and way to go, by the way! 😀)

The issue is that the OP is in a situation where they could conceivably be spending hundreds of thousands of dollars before even applying to medical school when lost income is taken into account without a realistic chance of being a competitive candidate for any medical school. If this person was your friend, what would you advise? I'm not one to tell people to give up their dreams, but I would still ask them to think long and hard about whether it's worth it. There are a lot of careers other than medicine that can be rewarding regardless of what people here might say.

 

[AdamB]

I dont think there is much difference IF ANY between doing Post Bacc pre med and actually getting a second bachelors. Admissions folks aren't stupid. They can tell if you can hack it by the performance in your post bacc and MCAT as well as ECs. If you do another degree entirely then they are going to take that exactly for what it is, "GPA Boosting". It doesn't prove anything more to them than if you had aced your post bacc pre-reqs. If you have a positive trend then you are good IMHO.

On the other hand you will have schools, according to some, that will not look at you as an applicant and they just want to publish some ridiculous admissions numbers so they look better on paper. They don't really care about finding the best applicants, TODAY. Now if you read studentdocs enough then you will think that all med schools are like this. I think that is probably the biggest myth on here and if a school is like that, then you don't want to go there anyway.

Bottom line you need to prove that you are academically capable (good post bacc grades - if it is above 3.8, I really don't see the need to continue with further coursework beyond that and a good MCAT - above 30), that you are motivated, compassionate and care about the people you hope to someday help (ECs-volunteering - A LOT OF IT), that you care about your educating yourself i n your respective field (clinical experience, shadowing, etc.) and that you are personable (good interview).

You do these things then I think you land somewhere as long as you apply broadly and are open to both DO and MD. You will eventually find schools that will recognize you for what you have BECOME not what you were.

 

[drizzt3117]

Bottom line you need to prove that you are academically capable (good post bacc grades - if it is above 3.8, I really don't see the need to continue with further coursework beyond that.

If the OP has 120 credits currently and takes 32 credits at 4.0, they will have a 2.66 overall GPA. Would that and a 30 MCAT be competitive for DO schools? If so, go for it. Before people talk about DO apps replacing grades with retakes, this won't apply since the OP wasn't a pre-med. IMO the OP needs to raise their GPA to at least 2.8 to have a chance at any US school, which would mean 2 years of postbac. If they took 64 credits at 4.0 they could reach 2.87 GPA.

 

[AdamB]

When you put it like that, no its not competive on the surface, but contrary to the impression given by SDN, Admissions for most schools will look a little deeper than a MCAT and GPA. A 2.6whatever and 30 isn't competitive but a 2.3 undergrad along with a 3.8-4.0 post bacc with a 30+ MCAT is. SDN paints a picture that is very different from reality. When you see a guy that had a 3.8 GPA and a 34 MCAT get denied at a elite school but then you see a guy with a 3.3 GPA and a 32 MCAT get accepted, there is something more going on than just two numbers. Most will look at the person. They want good personable and smart doctors representing their school not rigid perfectionists that have never faced one bit of adversity. Afterall, medicine is about making mistakes (because we all will) and how we learn from it and bounce back.

Like I said prove to the schools that you can hack it in the sciences and that you are intelligent by doing well on MCAT and you will be fine. You will have to explain your past discretions but I think there will be a MD that will take you as well as many DOs that will take you if you prove that you are capable NOW. Bottom line, it is attainable for anyone. It just depends on how much you can take before you quit completely.

 

[postbacker]

When you put it like that, no its not competive on the surface, but contrary to the impression given by SDN, Admissions for most schools will look a little deeper than a MCAT and GPA. A 2.6whatever and 30 isn't competitive but a 2.3 undergrad along with a 3.8-4.0 post bacc with a 30+ MCAT is. SDN paints a picture that is very different from reality. When you see a guy that had a 3.8 GPA and a 34 MCAT get denied at a elite school but then you see a guy with a 3.3 GPA and a 32 MCAT get accepted, there is something more going on than just two numbers. Most will look at the person. They want good personable and smart doctors representing their school not rigid perfectionists that have never faced one bit of adversity. Afterall, medicine is about making mistakes (because we all will) and how we learn from it and bounce back.

Like I said prove to the schools that you can hack it in the sciences and that you are intelligent by doing well on MCAT and you will be fine. You will have to explain your past discretions but I think there will be a MD that will take you as well as many DOs that will take you if you prove that you are capable NOW. Bottom line, it is attainable for anyone. It just depends on how much you can take before you quit completely.

So wrong and misleading for anyone with that low a GPA...do not spread BS like this for the desperate among us...

Read the MSAR and get back to us on your theory...

 

[drizzt3117]

I hate to discourage people, especially nontrads, but w/o a smp, a 2.8 gpa 30 mcat non urm candidate has 0 chance of acceptance at a us school, and the op is 64 credits of 4.0 work away from even that. Again, a realistic person would urge caution.

 

[FurmanJon]

an absolutely absurd thing to say. Hopefully you're considering pathology? There, your brand of hope will fit right in, and you won't need to give advice. Are you on an adcom? And on the off-chance that you are, are you on an adcom at every school in the United States?

Saying anything in life, except death itself, is "0%", much like "100%" is completely erroneous. Near impossible, maybe; the numbers you mentioned, however, are quite far from impossible.

 

[drizzt3117]

an absolutely absurd thing to say. Hopefully you're considering pathology? There, your brand of hope will fit right in, and you won't need to give advice. Are you on an adcom? And on the off-chance that you are, are you on an adcom at every school in the United States?

Saying anything in life, except death itself, is "0%", much like "100%" is completely erroneous. Near impossible, maybe; the numbers you mentioned, however, are quite far from impossible.

Look, if someone posted the following profile in the "what are my chances? thread"

2.8 GPA, 30 MCAT, applying broadly, what do you think people would say?

Those numbers with a SMP performance of 3.5-4.0 would give the OP a decent chance, IMO, but w/o that extra benefit the road is going to be tough. I remember a poster who applied in 2007 with 3.1 GPA (from Caltech) in engineering and 42 MCAT that applied to 40 schools and got 2 interviews and one acceptance (from a state school).

My main point isn't that the OP shouldn't do this, but that they should consider very carefully if they want to spend 4-5 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars for an outside shot at acceptance if everything goes well when they already have a degree in a field that has a lot of opportunities.

 

[FurmanJon]

Look, if someone posted the following profile in the "what are my chances? thread"

2.8 GPA, 30 MCAT, applying broadly, what do you think people would say?

Those numbers with a SMP performance of 3.5-4.0 would give the OP a decent chance, IMO, but w/o that extra benefit the road is going to be tough. I remember a poster who applied in 2007 with 3.1 GPA (from Caltech) in engineering and 42 MCAT that applied to 40 schools and got 2 interviews and one acceptance (from a state school).

I didn't mean to be harsh, but "road is going to be tough" and "you have a 0% chance" are quite different. Yes, the road will be tough--very tough, depending on the hole; but someone with lower numbers--for whatever reason, and you don't know the reasons, though an adcom will hear them--needs to hear that they can do it if they want it badly enough and are willing to work hard. Your original post didn't say that; your second one did.

Furthermore--think twice about the Caltech student. Does that mean you can only get in if you're perfect, or does it mean there is more than numbers to the whole process?

Perhaps not in that case, but I would be willing to bet--and this is speculation by a pre-medical nontrad student--that many of these poor folks who get sparse if any acceptances despite high numbers comes down to an inability to reason. Not reasoning that is tested on the MCAT; but the kind of life-experience reasoning that can explain why exploring a different career path (or paths) first, or that having failed previously, yet ultimately persevered, is an indispensible characteristic in a physician. This beastly Student Doctor Network is feverishly crazy over its numbers. This is not bad in-and-of itself, but it is a wellspring for short-sighted and obtuse thinking. As far as I can tell, that would be detrimental in a prospective clinician.

 

[drizzt3117]

I didn't mean to be harsh, but "road is going to be tough" and "you have a 0% chance" are quite different. Yes, the road will be tough--very tough, depending on the hole; but someone with lower numbers--for whatever reason, and you don't know the reasons, though an adcom will hear them--needs to hear that they can do it if they want it badly enough and are willing to work hard. Your original post didn't say that; your second one did.

Furthermore--think twice about the Caltech student. Does that mean you can only get in if you're perfect, or does it mean there is more than numbers to the whole process?

Perhaps not in that case, but I would be willing to bet--and this is speculation by a pre-medical nontrad student--that many of these poor folks who get sparse if any acceptances despite high numbers comes down to an inability to reason. Not reasoning that is tested on the MCAT; but the kind of life-experience reasoning that can explain why exploring a different career path (or paths) first, or that having failed previously, yet ultimately persevered, is an indispensible characteristic in a physician. This beastly Student Doctor Network is feverishly crazy over its numbers. This is not bad in-and-of itself, but it is a wellspring for short-sighted and obtuse thinking. As far as I can tell, that would be detrimental in a prospective clinician.

My assertion that that particular profile would have a low percentage chance (again, IMO it's pretty much non-existent) of success wasn't designed to put down the OP but to argue that the OP needs to pursue a SMP in addition to post-bacc coursework, while another poster had said that a candidate with a 2.3 and 30+ could gain admission in a US school after simply taking the prereqs and getting above 3.8, which IMO just isn't true.

I'm not trying to put down anyone, but not everyone is cut out for a career in medicine. If the OP has the willpower, determination, and aptitude to finish multiple years of additional coursework with straight As, excel on the MCAT, and do well in a SMP, they absolutely have a great chance to enter the field of medicine. That said, I have no idea if they do or not, and am simply saying that the road ahead is hard and by no means will even succeeding in the previously mentioned tasks guarantee them admission. If they're willing to take that chance, then by all means.

I guess my main issue is with people describing something like, all you need to do is finish a few years of postbacc science work at 4.0 to raise your gpa to 3.XX, get a 35 on the MCAT, and finish a SMP, and you'll be fine. As someone who has gone through at least the first 2 steps of that process, it's not academic that people will be able to get straight As just because they want to, or succeed on a difficult standardized test. If they're giving up a career to do so, they need to understand the difficulty of the task ahead, as well as the relatively small chances of success.

 

[FurmanJon]

I'm not trying to put down anyone, but not everyone is cut out for a career in medicine. If the OP has the willpower, determination, and aptitude to finish multiple years of additional coursework with straight As, excel on the MCAT, and do well in a SMP, they absolutely have a great chance to enter the field of medicine. That said, I have no idea if they do or not, and am simply saying that the road ahead is hard and by no means will even succeeding in the previously mentioned tasks guarantee them admission. If they're willing to take that chance, then by all means.

Well put. My caution is that you never know who is who and what is why on an internet message board, and short statements that include phrases about a "0 percent chance" will often not convey the message that you did above. Yes, the person who wanted to take 5-10 courses to make up for a 2.3 couldn't do it that way--but it could be done with, pardon, an a$$-ton of work. I see that as a good thing, as that approximates the level of work and dedication that will be required on the rest of this mortal coil for one pursuing the work of a doctor. Well, unless you make it into ROAD.

I'm satisfied. 🙂 I wish there were more such instances of civility on SDN.

 

[postbacker]

I didn't mean to be harsh, but "road is going to be tough" and "you have a 0% chance" are quite different. Yes, the road will be tough--very tough, depending on the hole; but someone with lower numbers--for whatever reason, and you don't know the reasons, though an adcom will hear them--needs to hear that they can do it if they want it badly enough and are willing to work hard. Your original post didn't say that; your second one did.

Furthermore--think twice about the Caltech student. Does that mean you can only get in if you're perfect, or does it mean there is more than numbers to the whole process?

Perhaps not in that case, but I would be willing to bet--and this is speculation by a pre-medical nontrad student--that many of these poor folks who get sparse if any acceptances despite high numbers comes down to an inability to reason. Not reasoning that is tested on the MCAT; but the kind of life-experience reasoning that can explain why exploring a different career path (or paths) first, or that having failed previously, yet ultimately persevered, is an indispensible characteristic in a physician. This beastly Student Doctor Network is feverishly crazy over its numbers. This is not bad in-and-of itself, but it is a wellspring for short-sighted and obtuse thinking. As far as I can tell, that would be detrimental in a prospective clinician.

The point of the CalTech student example is quite simple - "rocking the MCAT" cannot make up for a low GPA, and a 3.1 from CalTech no less, this is a much better GPA than the ones being debated so heatedly here...

So you took offense at the phrase "0 percent chance"...would you be OK with "you have less than a one percent chance" applying with a 2.8 to allo schools since, if you bother to look at the MSAR, is about what the odds are?

And the applicant in question in this thread does not have a 2.8 but something much lower, a 2.3...and the total odds of that person overcoming this obstacle and climbing out of the hole with years of post bacc work plus and SMP is infinitesimally small and approaching the dreaded 0 percent...

But at least he now knows what he must do which is why he posed his question in the first place...

An aside - that was the OP's first, only, and evidently last post on SDN...sometimes I don't understand why others get so concerned with the stuff posted in these threads, worried about someone's "feelings" when the OP doesn't even bother to say anything more...

 

[drizzt3117]

Well put. My caution is that you never know who is who and what is why on an internet message board, and short statements that include phrases about a "0 percent chance" will often not convey the message that you did above. Yes, the person who wanted to take 5-10 courses to make up for a 2.3 couldn't do it that way--but it could be done with, pardon, an a$$-ton of work. I see that as a good thing, as that approximates the level of work and dedication that will be required on the rest of this mortal coil for one pursuing the work of a doctor. Well, unless you make it into ROAD.

I'm satisfied. 🙂 I wish there were more such instances of civility on SDN.

I guess the reason I posted on the subject is that I would like the board to continue to be a useful resource for people and I think there's a need for balance between nay-sayers who tell everyone they have no shot (and I apologize if I was perceived as such, I'm certainly all for non-trads getting into med school if it's what they want) and cheerleaders who tell people that they can make it without giving them a candid assessment of their chances.

The application process sucks. There's no real other way to describe it. If you look on the pre-allo forum you'll see some of the best and brightest students in the US agonizing over their small chances of admission. To me, a process that brings out this level of insecurity obviously has some issues. So in that way, I think the encouragement given in this particular forum is great.

On the other hand, I'm only too aware that the probability of success isn't that high, and especially understand that it isn't anywhere near 100%. While I think I've done a lot of medically-related things and have varied and diverse ECs, and I'm pretty happy with how things have gone so far for me this application cycle (although until I have acceptance in hand I'm not going to make any final judgments about how things went), I'm pretty sure if I didn't have a good day on August 14, 2006, I would be sitting with the people in the "is there anyone with no interviews?" thread. I also started with a GPA a full point higher than the OPs, so his road would be even harder and more perilous.

I resigned a position as a consulting executive and if I end up starting in fall 2008 it will be three years since I quit and probably 10 more before I'd begin working at which point I will be in my 40s. Last year I was at a dinner with my business school classmates, many of which were like WTF! when they heard about my decision. I'm only too aware that I'm giving up millions of dollars in lost income to take over ten years off to pursue my dreams. For most non-trads, the decision to enter a career in medicine is an enormous one and shouldn't be taken lightly. While it is a big decision for anyone, it is even more difficult for people that already have a career, and in many cases a family. That's why I think questioning whether people really know what they're getting themselves into is important.

 

[Maxprime]

The point of the CalTech student example is quite simple - "rocking the MCAT" cannot make up for a low GPA, and a 3.1 from CalTech no less, this is a much better GPA than the ones being debated so heatedly here...

So you took offense at the phrase "0 percent chance"...would you be OK with "you have less than a one percent chance" applying with a 2.8 to allo schools since, if you bother to look at the MSAR, is about what the odds are?

I would disagree with "less than 1%", not out of silly semantics, but because it's not true. If you cruise around MDApplicants, I am willing to bet you will find a reasonable number of applicants that have low GPA's, high MCAT's, and are currently in med school. It won't be a high percentage, but it certainly won't be 1/100. You'll also see people with multiple acceptances to places like Dartmouth, NYU, Georgetown, Wake, Pitt, Keck, etc.

But people in a low-GPA situation do need to realize what they're up against. Scoring a 35+ on an MCAT means beating the hell out of people who beat the hell out of you in undergrad (35 is top 5% I believe). You'll also have to be close to flawless in your post-bacc, etc. My post-bacc had a LOT of people drop out the first year - they shouldn't be taken lightly.

I'm a good example - started out with something awful (2.6 I think?) from undergrad. I pulled a 3.9 in my post-bacc and a 40 on the MCAT - do you really think I have less than a 1/100 chance of getting in anywhere?

 

[drizzt3117]

I would disagree with "less than 1%", not out of silly semantics, but because it's not true. If you cruise around MDApplicants, I am willing to bet you will find a reasonable number of applicants that have low GPA's, high MCAT's, and are currently in med school. It won't be a high percentage, but it certainly won't be 1/100. You'll also see people with multiple acceptances to places like Dartmouth, NYU, Georgetown, Wake, Pitt, Keck, etc.

How many of the people with 3.1GPA/25 MCAT that don't realize they aren't competitive make MDapplicants profiles?

 

[postbacker]

I would disagree with "less than 1%", not out of silly semantics, but because it's not true. If you cruise around MDApplicants, I am willing to bet you will find a reasonable number of applicants that have low GPA's, high MCAT's, and are currently in med school. It won't be a high percentage, but it certainly won't be 1/100. You'll also see people with multiple acceptances to places like Dartmouth, NYU, Georgetown, Wake, Pitt, Keck, etc.

But people in a low-GPA situation do need to realize what they're up against. Scoring a 35+ on an MCAT means beating the hell out of people who beat the hell out of you in undergrad (35 is top 5% I believe). You'll also have to be close to flawless in your post-bacc, etc. My post-bacc had a LOT of people drop out the first year - they shouldn't be taken lightly.

I'm a good example - started out with something awful (2.6 I think?) from undergrad. I pulled a 3.9 in my post-bacc and a 40 on the MCAT - do you really think I have less than a 1/100 chance of getting in anywhere?

So did you read the MSAR? MDApps profiles are unreliable and highly selectively filled out...and really offers no support for your contention that a "reasonable number" of low GPA / high MCAT applicants are in med school...

A low UG GPa (sub 3.0) is deadly no matter what you score on the MCAT...

Why so defensive? Prove us all wrong and YOU be the exception to the rule RE low GPA and high MCAT...but don't hold your breath, and at least look at the MSAR and understand the burden of a low GPA in med admissions...

I think your chances of getting in anywhere are fairly low, greatly exacerbated by your late app, but all it takes is one...and I don't know your state school situation, etc., which could make a HUGE difference for you...regardless, good luck...

 

[beterltthnnever]

Originally posted by postbacker
"An aside - that was the OP's first, only, and evidently last post on SDN...sometimes I don't understand why others get so concerned with the stuff posted in these threads, worried about someone's "feelings" when the OP doesn't even bother to say anything more..."

I am busy watching 2 individuals bicker back and forth, and don't want to get involved. I didn't realize that I needed to post multiple times in order for my "feelings" to matter as you say (not that your comments have any bearing on my emotions). I originally posted to get honest feedback from individuals who are familiar with the field. Instead, I have learned that about half of the people on this site don't know what they are talking about. I wish I knew which 1/2 that was....

I have other options lined up, I am not vesting my entire life upon the fact that I will get in to a med program. That would be foolish. I understand that the odds are against me, and that there is a distinct chance that it won't happen due to my past. I was just looking for some input.

There postbacker... now I have 2 posts.

 

[postbacker]

Originally posted by postbacker
"An aside - that was the OP's first, only, and evidently last post on SDN...sometimes I don't understand why others get so concerned with the stuff posted in these threads, worried about someone's "feelings" when the OP doesn't even bother to say anything more..."

I am busy watching 2 individuals bicker back and forth, and don't want to get involved. I didn't realize that I needed to post multiple times in order for my "feelings" to matter as you say (not that your comments have any bearing on my emotions). I originally posted to get honest feedback from individuals who are familiar with the field. Instead, I have learned that about half of the people on this site don't know what they are talking about. I wish I knew which 1/2 that was....

I have other options lined up, I am not vesting my entire life upon the fact that I will get in to a med program. That would be foolish. I understand that the odds are against me, and that there is a distinct chance that it won't happen due to my past. I was just looking for some input.

There postbacker... now I have 2 posts.

My point was that you had one thin post, not much to go on, and as the thread unfolded, you could have jumped in to clarify your situation, etc., but you chose not to...your choice, but not very helpful to the discussion...

 

[Gold 5]

beterltthnnever,
Try to contact Texas Tri-athlete. He seems to be in your boat and I know he would have some advice on the process since he is a little farther down the path than you. He posts alot on the pre DO board. It can be done but it will be very long and arduous process. If you can't see yourself doing anything else as you get older, a few years now to get into med school will not be a big deal.

Best of Luck

 

[Savantrice]

beterltthnnever,
Try to contact Texas Tri-athlete. He seems to be in your boat and I know he would have some advice on the process since he is a little farther down the path than you. He posts alot on the pre DO board. It can be done but it will be very long and arduous process. If you can't see yourself doing anything else as you get older, a few years now to get into med school will not be a big deal.

Best of Luck

exactly. fwiw, i just got my first acceptance today to an allopathic school in my state. it wasnt a cakewalk, BUT if you're committed to the path, you'll make it.

 

[hawk126]

I'm a good example - started out with something awful (2.6 I think?) from undergrad. I pulled a 3.9 in my post-bacc and a 40 on the MCAT - do you really think I have less than a 1/100 chance of getting in anywhere?

I'm confident that you will get in, but you're a certainly not a run of the mill non-trad applicant... a 40 on the MCAT and a 3.9 from Harvard are extraordinary accomplishments. Given your mcat, that harvard name is major admissions currency. Someone, probably "someones", will say yes to your application for admission.

The anecdotal point on the caltech applicant is well-taken, i.e. great mcat won't, in a vacuum, make up for a mediocre or bad GPA. However, gpa's and mcat scores aren't evaluated in a vacuum. There's ample opportunity to provide context on your application. Some students take advantage of those opportunities, maybe our caltech genius wasn't one of those students. The cold, hard truth is that for applicants with weaker numbers, those opportunities are more important. As a non-trad, the admissions game is all about leveraging life experiences outside of school, especially if your numbers are pedestrian. Just my $0.2 cents, probably to be taken with a grain of salt since I'm scrambling after the same nut as everyone else. 🙂

To the OP, good luck! If you really want it you'll find a way, just be prepared for a longer, less conventional route... and it might help to move to TX, IL, ohio, or NY. 🙂

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I hate to discourage people, especially nontrads, but w/o a smp, a 2.8 gpa 30 mcat non urm candidate has 0 chance of acceptance at a us school, and the op is 64 credits of 4.0 work away from even that. Again, a realistic person would urge caution.

The truth is, you love to discourage people. That's why you post what you do. Zero chance, eh?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=6498

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=239

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3860

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=7344

And those are just half the profiles that came up. Quit trying to sabotoge people! A 2.8 undergrad without a post-bacc is likely to be rejected. A 2.3 with a 4.0 post-bacc and 30 MCAT isn't going to be thrown out the way you lead people to believe.

 

[drizzt3117]

The truth is, you love to discourage people. That's why you post what you do. Zero chance, eh?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=6498

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=239

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3860

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=7344

And those are just half the profiles that came up. Quit trying to sabotoge people! A 2.8 undergrad without a post-bacc is likely to be rejected. A 2.3 with a 4.0 post-bacc and 30 MCAT isn't going to be thrown out the way you lead people to believe.

First of all, MDApplicants is hardly authoritative when it comes to application profiles. Secondly, even if that's true, and we'll be generous and say 10 people with those profiles get in, how many people with those stats applied and got rejected? I doubt most of those even have profiles and even if they did, would they update them regularly to show all their rejections?

Honestly, if they want to apply and spend a huge amount of money (and incur even larger opportunity cost) without a realistic chance of acceptance, that's their decision. It doesn't bother me either way. That said, if people ask for my opinion, I'm going to give it to them, that doesn't mean they are going to like it.

Also, I'm not sure that my advice is that discouraging. Basically I told them to do postbac, then SMP and then they may be competitive with a good MCAT. Is that really discouraging? Yeah it will take a long time but they should know that before embarking on it.

 

[neulite]

MDapplicants was a horrible reference. It's like reading a Wikipedia citation in a research paper, it's not that valid and very unreliable.

 

[snomwed91]

I would disagree with "less than 1%", not out of silly semantics, but because it's not true. If you cruise around MDApplicants, I am willing to bet you will find a reasonable number of applicants that have low GPA's, high MCAT's, and are currently in med school. It won't be a high percentage, but it certainly won't be 1/100. You'll also see people with multiple acceptances to places like Dartmouth, NYU, Georgetown, Wake, Pitt, Keck, etc.

But people in a low-GPA situation do need to realize what they're up against. Scoring a 35+ on an MCAT means beating the hell out of people who beat the hell out of you in undergrad (35 is top 5% I believe). You'll also have to be close to flawless in your post-bacc, etc. My post-bacc had a LOT of people drop out the first year - they shouldn't be taken lightly.

I'm a good example - started out with something awful (2.6 I think?) from undergrad. I pulled a 3.9 in my post-bacc and a 40 on the MCAT - do you really think I have less than a 1/100 chance of getting in anywhere?

I see your status is a Medical Student now. I have a 2.6 undergrad gpa as well and am planning on getting a very high post-bacc and MCAT score. I am also planning on having about 80 hours of shadowing and more than 200 hours of clinical volunteering. I am currently a Middle School GT Academy Math Teacher.

What else do you think you did well in order to gain admission? How many schools did you interview at? How many offers did you get? Which states were these in? Any other advice would be awesome!

 

[kraskadva]

I see your status is a Medical Student now. I have a 2.6 undergrad gpa as well and am planning on getting a very high post-bacc and MCAT score. I am also planning on having about 80 hours of shadowing and more than 200 hours of clinical volunteering. I am currently a Middle School GT Academy Math Teacher.

What else do you think you did well in order to gain admission? How many schools did you interview at? How many offers did you get? Which states were these in? Any other advice would be awesome!

Unlikely to get an answer...

Try reading the front page of the board first (especially the stickies) for more recent posters/threads.

 

[ayjaystudent]

I see your status is a Medical Student now. I have a 2.6 undergrad gpa as well and am planning on getting a very high post-bacc and MCAT score. I am also planning on having about 80 hours of shadowing and more than 200 hours of clinical volunteering. I am currently a Middle School GT Academy Math Teacher.

What else do you think you did well in order to gain admission? How many schools did you interview at? How many offers did you get? Which states were these in? Any other advice would be awesome!

This guy on reddit just got accepted this year with less than 2.7 GPA.:
https://www.reddit.com/r/premed/comments/59dxwe/it_can_be_done_do_acceptance_with_27_gpa/

 

[snomwed91]

This guy on reddit just got accepted this year with less than 2.7 GPA.:
https://www.reddit.com/r/premed/comments/59dxwe/it_can_be_done_do_acceptance_with_27_gpa/

Thank you! That helped! 🙂

 

[psu228]

My undergrad is in business, I was young and foolish and my GPA reflects this. I graduated with a 2.3. Now 4 years removed and 27 years old, I am back in school pursuing a pre-med degree in biology. When med-schools look at my history, would receiving an additional degree with great grades improve my chances? Or should I complete the required courses with equally stellar marks and try to get in without another Bachelors? I am more than willing to put in the time but if that could be avoided it would greatly speed this process along.

I knew a guy with similar stats at psu med school right now.. like above posters said, you gotta rock the MCAT and your post bacc program. But you CAN do this. Just a question of how bad you want it.

Also, my buddy said he needed a "eureka" moment to tell interviewers why he went from poor ug to stellar post bacc. He had a lot of clinical experience which he brought up. As long as you put why you suddenly became such a good applicant into context you'll be good.

Also, DO schools...