Unique situation: FlexMed (Mt. Sinai) vs. apply out

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jurgenh16

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Hello sdn, I am a longtime guest viewer here. I am a part of Mt. Sinai (Icahn SOM)'s first FlexMed cohort, due to matriculate this fall. For some of you that may not be familiar with the program, I got in as a college soph and did not have take the MCAT.

Despite getting into FlexMed, I have completed all of my pre-reqs anyways, and will likely be graduating summa cum laude from a non HYPSM top university. I have an extensive publication and research record (multiple high impact pubs, 1 first author, lots of oral and poster presentations at national conferences), and excellent ECs (trust me on this, don't want to lost anonymity--FlexMed is a small community!). I have taken 9 full length practice MCATs (EK, Kaplan, AAMC, etc) and am averaging 520 (range 517-525).

Hence the question, which I trust you all know by now. I am aiming for either a top (Top 10) school or scholarship $$ (my COA for Sinai is $55k/yr). Would you take the MCAT in my situation, and apply out for this goal stick with FlexMed? I am an ORM from a relatively unlucky state though.
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jurgenh16 said:
Hello sdn, I am a longtime guest viewer here. I am a part of Mt. Sinai (Icahn SOM)'s first FlexMed cohort, due to matriculate this fall. For some of you that may not be familiar with the program, I got in as a college soph and did not have take the MCAT. However, I have a rather unique situation that I was hoping to ask you guys.

Despite getting into FlexMed, I have completed all of my pre-reqs anyways, and will likely be graduating summa cum laude from a non HYPSM top 15 university. I have an extensive publication and research record (multiple high impact pubs, 1 first author, lots of oral and poster presentations at national conferences), and excellent ECs (trust me on this, don't want to lost anonymity--FlexMed is a small community!). I have taken 8 full length practice MCATs (EK, Kaplan, AAMC, etc) and am averaging 520 (range 517-525).

Hence the question, which I trust you all know by now. I am aiming for either a top (Top 10) school or scholarship $$ (my COA for Sinai is $55k/yr). Would you take the MCAT in my situation, and apply out for this goal, or stick with FlexMed? I am an ORM from a relatively unlucky state though.
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Matriculate this fall at Mt. Sinai. Your residency options will only be limited by your performance during medical school ; Mt. Sinai is well-known within the medical community and will not hold you back.

If you do apply out, you will lose at least one year of an attending's earning and will need to support yourself financially over the next year. Despite your stellar credentials, you are not guaranteed a scholarship or even an acceptance from a 'higher tier' school. Save yourself from all this stress and matriculate this fall! JMT
 
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With respect to @gonnif and @Moko (whose opinions I probably agree with tbh), I think there's a fair point to OP's question. Depending on whether he can achieve his desired MCAT and how "excellent" those ECs are, I would be tempted to place OP in a category that I've heard @mimelim refer to as "I'd put money on to get into HMS" or something along those lines. Is there a good chance OP ends up getting a nice scholarship or a "top" acceptance? I would think so.

Now, if this were me I'd certainly take the acceptance and run because I'm the most risk adverse kid out there. My 2c.
 
Only you can really weigh the cost benefit of doing this. With your stats you have a good shot of getting something and if you were due to matriculate next fall I would probably recommend applying out. However, like other people have said, a years time is a huge opportunity cost.

The question becomes, how lucky are you feeling?

If it were me, I'd probably take the sinai spot though because I'm too lazy to do that stuff if I don't have to.
 
What if OP is awful at interviewing? Not saying you are OP 🙂 Just throwing it out there that lots of incredible applicants (on paper) end up striking out because they come across in a negative way at interviews.
 
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Good luck OP! :luck::luck:
 
Question: if OP does choose to apply out, when s/he fills out the AMCAS, will s/he have to check the box saying they were accepted (but chose not to attend)?
 
phuynh94 said:
Question: if OP does choose to apply out, when s/he fills out the AMCAS, will s/he have to check the box saying they were accepted (but chose not to attend)?
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I would assume not, as AFAIK flexmed (and Humed before that) is a completely separate, BS/MD type situation. If this does in fact classify OP as a reapplicant, then for sure don't apply elsewhere (for all the reasons SDN is filled with)!
 
Okazaki Frag Grenade said:
What if OP is awful at interviewing? Not saying you are OP 🙂 Just throwing it out there that lots of incredible applicants (on paper) end up striking out because they come across in a negative way at interviews.
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Well OP did well enough to pass the Sinai interview so we can assume s/he is not horrible (since s/he is 1 for 1 so far).
 
md-2020 said:
With respect to @gonnif and @Moko (whose opinions I probably agree with tbh), I think there's a fair point to OP's question. Depending on whether he can achieve his desired MCAT and how "excellent" those ECs are, I would be tempted to place OP in a category that I've heard @mimelim refer to as "I'd put money on to get into HMS" or something along those lines. Is there a good chance OP ends up getting a nice scholarship or a "top" acceptance? I would think so.

Now, if this were me I'd certainly take the acceptance and run because I'm the most risk adverse kid out there. My 2c.
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Difficult to say without knowing the ECs. Premeds are notoriously poor evaluators of their own credentials. Strong research with obvious strong productivity bodes well, especially at the top top schools.

That having been said. I don't really know the flexmed system well, but from cursory reading, the time to figure this out was 6 months ago. That would have given time to take the MCAT in April or earlier and allow for a more informed decision. I think with a 37+ equivalent in hand, it is not unreasonable to apply out. But, without it, there is just too much up in the air. But, it all comes down to individual risk tolerance.

My inclination at this point would be to not roll the dice, but as I said before, my understanding of the timing might be off.
 
mimelim said:
That having been said. I don't really know the flexmed system well, but from cursory reading, the time to figure this out was 6 months ago. That would have given time to take the MCAT in April or earlier and allow for a more informed decision. I think with a 37+ equivalent in hand, it is not unreasonable to apply out. But, without it, there is just too much up in the air. But, it all comes down to individual risk tolerance.
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Thanks for your thoughts mimelim. to clarify, I am registered for the May 6 MCAT test date, which releases scores June 7, in time for an "early application" as I understand it. As soon as I take the MCAT, I lose my FlexMed spot (hence why I'm giving myself as much study time as possible). I have discussed my ECs with several health advisors and physicians that I work with, and they have agreed that they would be considered "very strong" fwiw.

I would be open to a gap year while applying, so that is not an issue--I have a really cool research gig going on that supports my expenses that I can continue throughout. The real gauge im looking to weigh is the final outcome.
 
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Another thing about Flexmed is that you arent allowed to take the MCAT, at least that was my understanding when I interviewed, and that if you take the MCAT and do poorly on it then you've reallly shot your self in the foot.
 
jurgenh16 said:
I am registered for the May 6 MCAT test date, which releases scores June 7, in time for an "early application" as I understand it. As soon as I take the MCAT, I lose my FlexMed spot (hence why I'm giving myself as much study time as possible). I have discussed my ECs with several health advisors and physicians that I work with, and they have agreed that they would be considered "very strong" fwiw.
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Well this really just comes down to: "how big are your (figurative) balls?"
 
As a rough estimate there are about 2500 applicants each year with 3.75+/36+ stats. Again using very rough ball park estimation there are probably around 2500 matriculants at top 20 schools. Median MCAT amongst those matriculants on average for top 20's is probably a 36. So about 1250/2500 matriculants with stats like yours get into a top school roughly. This is all very rough but it gives you an idea of your "odds" per se of getting into a top 20.

You have factors that likely make your odds higher. But you are also only gunning for a select few schools which will be even more competitive. If there are say 8 schools you would turn down Mt Sinai for you are aiming for, that reduces your odds further. If we are ball parking maybe 1300-1500 3.75+/36+ applicants apply to those 8 schools as a guess/estimate. Those 8 schools probably have say 900 matriculants with 36-37 MCAT medians amongst matriculants. So maybe 500 of those matriculants have your type of stats. 500/1300-1500 are lower odds. Again these are very rough estimates on something that is impossible to estimate but the odds for targeting several top top schools in particular are always going to involve some risk.

You have to ask yourself also specifically why X schools over Mt Sinai: ie what reasons are so compelling to make you want to consider this? This is something only you can answer but when talking about something like this those reasons should be substantiated in a good bit. Type of thing decision/stance you make based off input or even approval from doc's and others of that position etc. Other thing to consider is this: If you are doing this just to save money while I usually dont like the "lose a year attending salary" argument as it often is used for things it shouldnt be in this case it matters. A gap year will cost you in net earnings at least as much as Mt Sinai's tuition.

All in all between that and not even having an MCAT score(516-523 is a big range, get a 516 on the real thing and youve likely made a mistake) and Id say the move here is take the guarantee and go with it.
 
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@GrapesofRath The reason OP is considering other top schools is mostly for the money. At least that's the only thing that makes sense. Trying for a top 10 just because is stupid. Seems like Sinai screws all the FlexMed kids by not giving them much, if any, aid.
 
I have balls so I would take the MCAT and apply out with a profile like that. Esp if you're 3.9+ with that much research and had enough personality for the Sinai interview (it is NOT an easy interview). Gun for WashU or Chicago or Penn for the money. But also be prepared to spend one year off and be back at square 1 with an offer from a top school but no scholly or aid.

I've always thought it was real sneaky of Sinai to nab away the high-achieving, risk-adverse kids so early on. It's a great way for them to pursue other passions yes, but it's also acqui-hiring/poaching at its most aggressive. Give 'em the middle finger and do it!
 
avgn said:
@GrapesofRath The reason OP is considering other top schools is mostly for the money. At least that's the only thing that makes sense. Trying for a top 10 just because is stupid. Seems like Sinai screws all the FlexMed kids by not giving them much, if any, aid.
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Yes, this does seem to be the case with me at least. The reason I want to try for top 10s (and I admit, I like prestige), is really because I heard they have much more need based aid.

avgn said:
But also be prepared to spend one year off and be back at square 1 with an offer from a top school but no scholly or aid.
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What do you guys think about scholarships (merit?) if I do as expected on the MCAT, from lower ranked schools? I would be perfectly happy with that too, not totally gunning for a big name here.
 
Then again, though, the risk is only REALLY worth it if there's something else you don't like about Sinai or like about a gap year. Like people said, the money should work out by factoring in the opportunity cost, but a gap year allows for a lot of other good things that's not quantifiable. If you don't like NYC, the school, the fit, whatever, it adds more to why you might am wanna apply out. If it's ONLY for the money, think long and hard. But if you're really that worried about the tuition vs. opportunity cost, just make sure you live a year longer than you were planning on to if you take the risky route. 😛
 
jurgenh16 said:
Yes, this does seem to be the case with me at least. The reason I want to try for top 10s (and I admit, I like prestige), is really because I heard they have much more need based aid.

What do you guys think about scholarships (merit?) if I do as expected on the MCAT, from lower ranked schools? I would be perfectly happy with that too, not totally gunning for a big name here.
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Yeah no prestige is for losers. Also c'mon it's Sinai, not CNU... Bad logic. If it's ONLY for the money, just go to Sinai. If there's a push factor out of Sinai, it's worth considering more.

Loaded question on the other one. There is literally no responsible way to predict that merit stuff for anyone.
 
avgn said:
If it's ONLY for the money, just go to Sinai. If there's a push factor out of Sinai, it's worth considering more.
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Agreed, after reading through this thread's progression. Also consider this: you said you will pay $55k per/yr at MSSM. Which yes, means Sinai is giving you very little. But remember that their total COA is so much lower than any other comparable private med school out there (internet says $64k/year correct me if I'm wrong)

Ex: let's say you go up a few blocks to Columbia P&S. Their annual COA is $85k for years 1,2 and 4, and $92k for year 3. Just for you to pay the same price as Sinai, they would have to offer you $20k/year more in need based grants, which I'm honestly not certain they would. If cost is the main issue here, even disregarding opportunity cost, you should probably stick with MSSM.

Also, IMO Sinai has the undisputed best location out of every NYC medical school.

Edit: I also thought I could pull some merit money out of my state school, and it didn't happen. So that's a pretty risky bet.
 
avgn said:
@GrapesofRath The reason OP is considering other top schools is mostly for the money. At least that's the only thing that makes sense. Trying for a top 10 just because is stupid. Seems like Sinai screws all the FlexMed kids by not giving them much, if any, aid.
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It sounded like to me from their post they were interested in either prestige or getting money which is why I brought it up. We've all mostly touched the key points here espec with finances.

Im not as risk averse as many on SDN on are on something like this but I just have a hard time justifying turning down the acceptance here without an MCAT score, how variable money is a top schools is, and how the odds at any particular school or set of a few schools is just never going to be amazing. Hitting 98th+ percentile on the real MCAT is always a different beast than in practice: Im willing to bet more than 2% of people who take the test can hit 520+ on one of those practice tests under practice conditions but only 2% will on the real deal.

You basically just have to ask yourself is the difference between Stanford/Harvard etc vs Mt Sinai big enough to justify the risk of not getting into any top 20 school at all? For most I think the answer is no.

And yes, Sinai knows exactly what they are doing with this program lol. Other top 20's like Northwestern do this, but Sinai's taking things to a whole other level if they really are going to start filling half their class through this. Good for them though, I bet there's a decent chance they arent the first school to ponder something like this rather they're just the first one with the confidence and balls to do it.
 
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I'm also in your FlexMed cohort, also graduating Summa with a lot of pubs (including first authors in quality journals), and will also need to take out loans to attend. I think we've all considered your dilemma at some point closer to the initial acceptance (a solid amount of us have all of our pre-reqs done). I've personally concluded that it's not worth it. As you've seen, you can match into any specialty, anywhere from Sinai: provided you do well. A lot of people at second look ended up choosing Sinai over Columbia/other higher ranked schools. You're guaranteed to start at age 22 at a top 20 that's student-friendly with an awesome quality of life. Option 1: attend the school, run with your pubs, study hard for boards, and apply to residency with hopefully a high step 1 and your pubs -> residency you want, pay off debt; Option 2: take the MCAT, lose a year applying, no guarantee of a higher ranked school or money, but if you're lucky you'll get Columbia or Duke at half the debt, study hard for boards, apply with your pubs -> residency you want, pay off a little less debt.

Overall, it just seems like a whole lot more risk and waste of time that gets you to the exact same place you would get to if you just matriculated. My 2 cents.
 
So if you take MCAT, this year, you will be a year behind?

If you work until age 65, that means you'll get one less year of work in. So let's say that's 200k less salary overall to be on the safe side.
 
Dral said:
So if you take MCAT, this year, you will be a year behind?

If you work until age 65, that means you'll get one less year of work in. So let's say that's 200k less salary overall to be on the safe side.
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So then just work until 66
 
take the acceptance. youre crazy.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
 
I had stats exactly like yours: graduated summa cum laude from a top school where I had a full-ride, impressive and unique extracurriculars (which won top university awards), tons of research with multiple grants, was nominated for international awards. I interviewed but was waitlisted by Sinai. I would've killed to go there.

At the end of the day, I didn't get into any top-20 schools, and I interviewed at a few. About half of my friends with similar stats got into top 10 schools. About half didn't. I know some awful people with worse stats who got into amazing schools. The reality is that top-2o schools are a crapshoot, especially those in desirable locations. You don't here these stories on SDN because most people are just grateful to get in to medical school. We are the silent majority.

If you give up your spot, it will be the ultimate greek tradgedy, hubris included. A year ago, I would've pushed you towards the ledge so I could take your spot.
 
Just a FYI that if you apply out of FlexMed, don't bother applying to Mt Sinai again as a "safety". They're unlikely to interview you.
 
jurgenh16 said:
Hello sdn, I am a longtime guest viewer here. I am a part of Mt. Sinai (Icahn SOM)'s first FlexMed cohort, due to matriculate this fall. For some of you that may not be familiar with the program, I got in as a college soph and did not have take the MCAT.

Despite getting into FlexMed, I have completed all of my pre-reqs anyways, and will likely be graduating summa cum laude from a non HYPSM top university. I have an extensive publication and research record (multiple high impact pubs, 1 first author, lots of oral and poster presentations at national conferences), and excellent ECs (trust me on this, don't want to lost anonymity--FlexMed is a small community!). I have taken 9 full length practice MCATs (EK, Kaplan, AAMC, etc) and am averaging 520 (range 517-525).

Hence the question, which I trust you all know by now. I am aiming for either a top (Top 10) school or scholarship $$ (my COA for Sinai is $55k/yr). Would you take the MCAT in my situation, and apply out for this goal stick with FlexMed? I am an ORM from a relatively unlucky state though.
Click to expand...

Essentially, the dilemma you have is that you have a guaranteed spot at a prestigious medical school with little financial aid and are considering dropping it to attempt to get into other prestigious medical schools which may not accept you.

Regardless of your chance of getting into these other medical schools, which you can not approximate accurately, you know your chance of having the opportunity to matriculate to Sinai assuming you pass all of your courses is 100%. I would suggest you take this 100% acceptance and move on with your life having saved $2000 on applications.

Many Sinai medical students end up in top residency positions in competitive fields, so you are not hurting your career in the slightest by attending Sinai. However, you could be hurting your career very much if you choose to apply out.
 
jurgenh16 said:
Thanks for your thoughts mimelim. to clarify, I am registered for the May 6 MCAT test date, which releases scores June 7, in time for an "early application" as I understand it. As soon as I take the MCAT, I lose my FlexMed spot (hence why I'm giving myself as much study time as possible). I have discussed my ECs with several health advisors and physicians that I work with, and they have agreed that they would be considered "very strong" fwiw.

I would be open to a gap year while applying, so that is not an issue--I have a really cool research gig going on that supports my expenses that I can continue throughout. The real gauge im looking to weigh is the final outcome.
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Just beware that many of these advisors and physicians have no idea of how competitive the process has gotten since back in the day and their evaluation of your credentials should be taken with a grain of salt. I have friends with 33-35's that were told by older docs to apply to HMS as lockins based on just stats…LOL. The avg MCAT for top schools has risen dramatically in just the last decade alone. Unless you have some ECs that have are "insane" (I think there was a thread a while back) by LizzyM, your ECs are probably not "very strong".

With that being said, I would have personally applied out if I were in your shoes and knew objectively, surely that I had very strong ECs/MCAT prediction/etc but that's just me. I live on the edge 😀 Worst case scenario, you don't end up at a great school like Sinai or with any scholarships; not a big deal if you don't care about the name too much since your debt would be similar.
 
Disclosure: probably going to Sinai next year.

Personally, I think you're insane if you apply out. You are not guaranteed the MCAT score you expect, and if you get it you aren't guaranteed the acceptances you're counting on. You could easily find yourself right back where you are but with more expensive options you don't like any better.

Also, I feel like it's not being acknowledged enough that the application year totally blows. Weeks of AMCAS, personal statement writing, endless secondaries, waiting for interviews, interviewing a bunch of places, anxiously checking your email and SDN every 14 seconds for months straight, and you still have to take the MCAT too (so add all that test anxiety plus a very very slow and anxious month waiting for your score). You have the opportunity to skip all that and still end up at a school that can get you literally anything you want in medicine.

I can't imagine why someone in your position wouldn't matriculate.
 
mscs2014 said:
Also, I feel like it's not being acknowledged enough that the application year totally blows. Weeks of AMCAS, personal statement writing, endless secondaries, waiting for interviews, interviewing a bunch of places, anxiously checking your email and SDN every 14 seconds for months straight, and you still have to take the MCAT too (so add all that test anxiety plus a very very slow and anxious month waiting for your score). You have the opportunity to skip all that and still end up at a school that can get you literally anything you want in medicine.
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+1
This has been such a stressful year. There is no rhyme or reason to interview invitations, acceptances, etc. You admit to being ORM from a state that is unfriendly for IS. You have a chance to go to a Top 20 school. Start in August and don't look back.
 
jurgenh16 said:
Hence the question, which I trust you all know by now. I am aiming for either a top (Top 10) school or scholarship $$ (my COA for Sinai is $55k/yr). Would you take the MCAT in my situation, and apply out for this goal stick with FlexMed? I am an ORM from a relatively unlucky state though.
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1. Having loads of publications will not guarantee you a spot anywhere, and your "excellent" ECs probably aren't that excellent.
2. 55K per year is a lot, but most schools are expensive these days; the only reason to apply out of the program is if you plan on attending your state school.
3. Since you are aiming for "either a top 10 or a scholarship".... go to Sinai.
4. good luck.
 
Hi guys, thank so much for the input.

To clear up the question surrounding my ECs, I've PM'd several SDNers who've unanimously agreed that they're sufficient for any top school. HOWEVER,

I have decided to matriculate to Sinai. I was quoting costs from the estimated package that Sinai provided two years ago, and after explaining my current situation/recent achievements, the Fin Aid office actually upped their package with a combination of need-based grants and merit money. The problem has more or less solved itself.

Thanks again SDN, maybe I'll be back in 3 years when I'm applying out to residencies 🙂
 
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