univesity of Toronto

[zaid]

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please I need your answer about the university of Toronto,I want to apply for a clinical rotation there,what do you think about it?is it a good uni?
thanks 🙂

 

[xylem29]

hello, it is the best university in Canada. The university health network is the largest tertiary centre in Canada as well.

Ranked #1 for Medical and Doctoral programs in Canada by Maclean's magazine. (The Canadian version of the US Weekly rankings in the US.)

 

[jbish]

please I need your answer about the university of Toronto,I want to apply for a clinical rotation there,what do you think about it?is it a good uni?
thanks 🙂

Yet again, why bother dignifying this with an answer? Sounds very trollesque to me.

 

[zaid]

hello, it is the best university in Canada. The university health network is the largest tertiary centre in Canada as well.

Ranked #1 for Medical and Doctoral programs in Canada by Maclean's magazine. (The Canadian version of the US Weekly rankings in the US.)

thank you too much 🙂

 

[MadHopsMD]

hello, it is the best university in Canada. The university health network is the largest tertiary centre in Canada as well.

Ranked #1 for Medical and Doctoral programs in Canada by Maclean's magazine. (The Canadian version of the US Weekly rankings in the US.)

I was suprised xylem. when I went to the US for interviews...everyone talked about how great McGill is...and no one thought highly of uoft med school.

I still think McGill has a better reputation in the US.

 

[xylem29]

You mean interviewers or other applicants?

B/c the person who interviewed me at wayne knew U of T's rep.

But yeah, even on these boards - McGill is the best school in Canada. Even as U of T has like 7 spots for intl students, most Americans go to McGill. McGill is certainly still a top school, and it's in the top 3 or even 2nd to Toronto, but Toronto is definitely #1. At least for now...I dunno why Americans don't consider Toronto or why they haven't caught wind of the change.

 

[MadHopsMD]

You mean interviewers or other applicants?

B/c the person who interviewed me at wayne knew U of T's rep.

But yeah, even on these boards - McGill is the best school in Canada. Even as U of T has like 7 spots for intl students, most Americans go to McGill. McGill is certainly still a top school, and it's in the top 3 or even 2nd to Toronto, but Toronto is definitely #1. At least for now...I dunno why Americans don't consider Toronto or why they haven't caught wind of the change.

Vandy, Upstate and UVM...all three asked me whether I applied to McGill...as if that was the only school in canada lol 😛

 

[xylem29]

lol, damn.

 

[degoo_]

McGill's name is certainly up there. There is a thread about it in the canadian forum, and someone posted that in something to do with california residency positions they all knew mcgill well.

 

[zaid]

thank you .

 

[Marquis_Phoenix]

It's because Mcgill had William Osler who went onto become one of the founding physicians of John Hopkins. So there's always been a connection between the US and Mcgill given that one of their graduates had an enormous influence on US medicine.

University of Toronto's historical equivalent of Osler is Banting and Best, who discovered insulin back in 1923 around the same time frame. They didn't really have any connection/influence in the US however.

 

[akinf]

hello, it is the best university in Canada. The university health network is the largest tertiary centre in Canada as well.

Ranked #1 for Medical and Doctoral programs in Canada by Maclean's magazine. (The Canadian version of the US Weekly rankings in the US.)

Wow you must love UofT. I thought McGill was first in McLean's this year, not UofT.

 

[zaid]

thank you all ...

 

[leviathan]

Wow you must love UofT. I thought McGill was first in McLean's this year, not UofT.

Misplaced pride.

 

[kojing]

it's not hard to choose actually.

1. if you only know english, go for UOfT.
2. McGill if you speak French.

 

[Prag]

it's not hard to choose actually.

1. if you only know english, go for UOfT.
2. McGill if you speak French.

Really?? I only speak English yet I chose McGill...

 

[qwopty99]

Wow you must love UofT. I thought McGill was first in McLean's this year, not UofT.

mcgill came first in 2006. but that was after 12 consecutive years (including a few years where it was tied) of UT being in the number 1 spot. the only other time UT wasn't in 1st, was in the very first year of the rankings, 13 years ago.

a VERY large asterisk has to also be added to UT's 3rd place finish in 2006. why hasn't anyone mentioned that 22 MAJOR universities OPTED OUT of the maclean's survey in 2006, INCLUDING U OF T??


According to wiki...

"As of September 2006, 22 prominent Canadian universities have withdrawn from the magazine's rankings, among them the University of British Columbia, the University of Toronto, Dalhousie University, McMaster University, the University of New Brunswick, the University of Manitoba, Simon Fraser University, the University of Calgary, the University of Lethbridge, Ryerson University, the Université de Montréal, the University of Ottawa, York University, Concordia University, the University of Western Ontario, Queen's University, Carleton University, the University of Windsor and the University of Alberta, as a means of voicing their displeasure with the methodology used to determine the Maclean's ranking."

about the only remaining university with any prestige left in the ranking, is mcgill.

its actually pretty sad they had to finish first - all my mcgill graduate friends have gotten all cocky again (as usual).

 

[operationivy]

mcgill came first in 2006. but that was after 12 consecutive years (including a few years where it was tied) of UT being in the number 1 spot. the only other time UT wasn't in 1st, was in the very first year of the rankings, 13 years ago.

a VERY large asterisk has to also be added to UT's 3rd place finish in 2006. why hasn't anyone mentioned that 22 MAJOR universities OPTED OUT of the maclean's survey in 2006, INCLUDING U OF T??


According to wiki...

"As of September 2006, 22 prominent Canadian universities have withdrawn from the magazine's rankings, among them the University of British Columbia, the University of Toronto, Dalhousie University, McMaster University, the University of New Brunswick, the University of Manitoba, Simon Fraser University, the University of Calgary, the University of Lethbridge, Ryerson University, the Université de Montréal, the University of Ottawa, York University, Concordia University, the University of Western Ontario, Queen's University, Carleton University, the University of Windsor and the University of Alberta, as a means of voicing their displeasure with the methodology used to determine the Maclean's ranking."

about the only remaining university with any prestige left in the ranking, is mcgill.

its actually pretty sad they had to finish first - all my mcgill graduate friends have gotten all cocky again (as usual).

It doesn't matter that those schools "withdrew their support" from the rankings because the data used to create the rankings was still able to be obtained from them in an unbiased fashion . If there is any question, however, one could look at the London Times higher education ranking for 2006 (google this to view the info) and one would see that McGill was ranked #21 overall best university in the world and University of Toronto was #27. The fact is that Montreal is a booming city (in contrast to its somewhat depressed era in the late 1990's) and McGill is in the middle of it all. The school is receiving more research money than any other institution in Canada. It is a great school, with a particularly strong faculty of medicine with an amazing tradition of bedside teaching and research. McGill grads who go back to the states can get virtually any residency spot they desire. Why is so hard for people from Ontario to accept that!? I am not even Canadian! I am from California! It's funny, its always the people from Toronto talking about the rankings and how they should be #1. I have seen very few postings from McGill students mentioning anything about this topic....interesting, huh?

 

[qwopty99]

It doesn't matter that those schools "withdrew their support" from the rankings because the data used to create the rankings was still able to be obtained from them in an unbiased fashion.

u know, u really should look up what maclean's themselves have to say about data collection. by "withdrawing support", the universities didn't divulge data. it is in writing that maclean's re-used THE PREVIOUS YEAR'S data in areas it had incomplete data. tell me how that is relevant in CURRENT YEAR'S rankings.

If there is any question, however, one could look at the London Times higher education ranking for 2006 (google this to view the info) and one would see that McGill was ranked #21 overall best university in the world and University of Toronto was #27.

thanks. great.

maybe u can look a bit beyond the London Times and try citing other comprehensive university rankings, such as the one described on wiki as "One of the most widely cited rankings," - the Shanghai Jiao Tong University rankings - where UT ranked 24, and mcgill at 64, (with UBC at 36). something smells of rankings not being that consistent.

The fact is that Montreal is a booming city (in contrast to its somewhat depressed era in the late 1990's) and McGill is in the middle of it all. The school is receiving more research money than any other institution in Canada. It is a great school, with a particularly strong faculty of medicine with an amazing tradition of bedside teaching and research. McGill grads who go back to the states can get virtually any residency spot they desire.

great. thanks. i guess UToronto is in the city of doldrums.

why don't we talk about the money that is actually relevant? do u know what UT's endowment is?

Why is so hard for people from Ontario to accept that!? I am not even Canadian! I am from California!

and ur trying to tell a canadian about canadian university rankings? maybe u should spend some time in canada first before making such remarks. i've heard of Caltech, Stanford, and Berkeley, but i couldn't begin to speak intelligently about which of the three one should attend - and i certainly couldn't be an authority around someone who grew up in california.

It's funny, its always the people from Toronto talking about the rankings and how they should be #1. I have seen very few postings from McGill students mentioning anything about this topic....interesting, huh?

if u actually lived in canada with canadians, u'd know mcgill alumni bring up rankings much more than UT grads. UT grads don't even talk about them - why should they - they're always at the top. look at all the blogs every year from other universities with students saying, "macleans got it wrong again!"

don't mistake me - mcgill is good - perhaps as good as UT, perhaps better - who cares? but don't tell me its unarguably better, based on the london times, or macleans, or because its based in montreal, or because ur perspective is that of an american living in california.

 

[operationivy]

u know, u really should look up what maclean's themselves have to say about data collection. by "withdrawing support", the universities didn't divulge data. it is in writing that maclean's re-used THE PREVIOUS YEAR'S data in areas it had incomplete data. tell me how that is relevant in CURRENT YEAR'S rankings.



thanks. great.

maybe u can look a bit beyond the London Times and try citing other comprehensive university rankings, such as the one described on wiki as "One of the most widely cited rankings," - the Shanghai Jiao Tong University rankings - where UT ranked 24, and mcgill at 64, (with UBC at 36). something smells of rankings not being that consistent.




great. thanks. i guess UToronto is in the city of doldrums.

why don't we talk about the money that is actually relevant? do u know what UT's endowment is?




and ur trying to tell a canadian about canadian university rankings? maybe u should spend some time in canada first before making such remarks. i've heard of Caltech, Stanford, and Berkeley, but i couldn't begin to speak intelligently about which of the three one should attend - and i certainly couldn't be an authority around someone who grew up in california.




if u actually lived in canada with canadians, u'd know mcgill alumni bring up rankings much more than UT grads. UT grads don't even talk about them - why should they - they're always at the top. look at all the blogs every year from other universities with students saying, "macleans got it wrong again!"

don't mistake me - mcgill is good - perhaps as good as UT, perhaps better - who cares? but don't tell me its unarguably better, based on the london times, or macleans, or because its based in montreal, or because ur perspective is that of an american living in california.

Despite the London Times ranking, perhaps I am biased towards McGill because I am from the U.S. In the U.S., McGill has a stellar reputation and most people don't know too much about U of T. By the way, that Shanghai ranking has been widely critized....for example it places a tremendous amount of weight on Nobel prize winners (past or present) at an institution. McGill has a few of those, as does U of T, but that certainly shouldn't be a prominent factor in determining the "prestige" of an entire university. Most importantly...Montreal is a much cooler city than Toronto! I have heard that Toronto is the "Cleveland, Ohio" of Canada. Just kidding.....Just kidding...don't get all worked up

 

[allthaticanbe]

Silly Americans.....Tsk Tsk

McGill and UofT are both GREAT schools that offer very different experiences and one should base their choice on those factors. Yet its very rare that an American would get it into BOTH much less one consider UofT has only 7 spots for internationals and McGill has a similar number.

GoodLuck anyway

 

[xylem29]

It doesn't matter that those schools "withdrew their support" from the rankings because the data used to create the rankings was still able to be obtained from them in an unbiased fashion . If there is any question, however, one could look at the London Times higher education ranking for 2006 (google this to view the info) and one would see that McGill was ranked #21 overall best university in the world and University of Toronto was #27. The fact is that Montreal is a booming city (in contrast to its somewhat depressed era in the late 1990's) and McGill is in the middle of it all. The school is receiving more research money than any other institution in Canada. It is a great school, with a particularly strong faculty of medicine with an amazing tradition of bedside teaching and research. McGill grads who go back to the states can get virtually any residency spot they desire. Why is so hard for people from Ontario to accept that!? I am not even Canadian! I am from California! It's funny, its always the people from Toronto talking about the rankings and how they should be #1. I have seen very few postings from McGill students mentioning anything about this topic....interesting, huh?

Wrongo!

 

[xylem29]

Despite the London Times ranking, perhaps I am biased towards McGill because I am from the U.S. In the U.S., McGill has a stellar reputation and most people don't know too much about U of T. By the way, that Shanghai ranking has been widely critized....for example it places a tremendous amount of weight on Nobel prize winners (past or present) at an institution. McGill has a few of those, as does U of T, but that certainly shouldn't be a prominent factor in determining the "prestige" of an entire university. Most importantly...Montreal is a much cooler city than Toronto! I have heard that Toronto is the "Cleveland, Ohio" of Canada. Just kidding.....Just kidding...don't get all worked up

nope - i can confidently say that, although Toronto was ranked behind Denver (some cities rankings), I have been to US "cities". With the exception of New York, Chicago, and LA (and others??? fill me in if I'm missing others), St. Louis, Nashville, Detroit, and Albany are SOOOOOO undeveloped as cities in comparison to Toronto. I will assume that Cleveland is the same, because it seems that other than the big cosmo cities, the public transit systems in the US are total ****.

I didn't realize how efficient and elaborate Toronto transit was until I visited the US for interviews - I will need to buy a car is what I have been told everywhere I interviewed...and I thought that detroit and st louis were big cities??? not so. even in boston, if you are out in the suburbs, you'll need a car. With GO transit (bus and trains), you can live 2 hours away from Toronto and still make it to work w/o having to drive...I highly doubt that Toronto is Canada's Cleavland, based on the fact that only NY's transit system is comparable to Toronto's...and well, Cleveland is not NY.

 

[rskhan29]

Despite the London Times ranking, perhaps I am biased towards McGill because I am from the U.S. In the U.S., McGill has a stellar reputation and most people don't know too much about U of T. By the way, that Shanghai ranking has been widely critized....for example it places a tremendous amount of weight on Nobel prize winners (past or present) at an institution. McGill has a few of those, as does U of T, but that certainly shouldn't be a prominent factor in determining the "prestige" of an entire university. Most importantly...Montreal is a much cooler city than Toronto! I have heard that Toronto is the "Cleveland, Ohio" of Canada. Just kidding.....Just kidding...don't get all worked up

Newsweek used a hybrid ranking system of both and ranked UoT #18 versus McGill at #42 and UBC at #31. Just sayin' 🙂

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/

 

[operationivy]

Newsweek used a hybrid ranking system of both and ranked UoT #18 versus McGill at #42 and UBC at #31. Just sayin' 🙂

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/

The methodology in the London Times is more accurate....hence the reason that no one speaks of the Newsweek rankings....sorry my Ontario friends. As far as cities go, if one were given the choice, would they rather live in Montreal or Toronto? The choice is clear to me.....amazing restarants, great music scene (NINJA tunes is based in Montreal, great new bands), musueums, architecture....Montreal! Hope I get into McGill! Didn't even apply to U of T. Would be happy to leave San Francisco for Montreal.

 

[pattycanuck]

OK so the original question is what is the best university ... and as the OP indicated that he'd like to do a clinical (medical school) rotation there, I would assume best in the reputation of medical school.

Now it the above is true, this thread is starting to degenerate into something it is not. If I can redirect then (and maybe clarify):

1) Is UofT a great medical school?
2) for what purpose is it a great medical school? teaching? reputation of students clinically or for their research skills? library holdings? alumni support? the amount of money it gets for research, etc?
3) does one, many , all, or none of the above really matter when getting into a residency in the US or Canada?

My take on this (if I may) is that:

1) Canadian medical schools are more equal in training than their American counterparts (ie deviation from the norm is smaller).
2) It isn't about the "schools", but the actual staff on the admissions/interview panel that would have an inkling of Canadian schools (and like one poster above who said ... Canada is Canada like Pakistan is Pakistan ... that would apply to most American staff)
3) Who thinks that library holdings and money spent on research pushes one university over another in any ranking?
4) The validity of the rakings in question (Shanghai, Macleans, MSNBC, etc.); when breaking down the "percentages" of what is important ... does eg. 40% of your score for research papers IN ANOTHER DISCIPLINE mean anything to the skill level of a newly graduating doctor😕 😕 ?
5) In the medical/docatoral field like Macleans (and others) has classed their universities, Toronto may get the most cash for medical research, but does it really create the best doctors that can actually manage and use their clinical skills well? I have to say none of those rankings take that into account.

All in all, the university rankings put out do not say anything about the best medical school for training medical doctors ... only thing about how good they are "in the overall picture" - the latter criteria I believe do not have any bearing on you as a skilled clinician.

Both are great schools for medical whatevers in one way or another. People will have heard of them down south.

At the end of the day, your time there and WHAT YOU DID WITH IT (ie watched vs. got fully involved and threw in central lines and helped with trauma in ER) is what they'd like to see on your reference letter afterward that is used for your application.

I just thought I'd be devil's advocate today and bring a different perspective out. 😀

 

[akinf]

First of all, operationivy, you are clearly misinformed about some things in Canada. Toronto gets more funding than McGill hands down when it comes to research. In fact, the only school in NORTH AMERICA that produces more papers than Toronto is Harvard. McGill is a great school, don't get me wrong, however, it is so hard to say that Toronto is better than McGill or vice versa. Montreal may be a cooler city to some, and Toronto may be a cooler city to others. The person who said TO was Canada Cleveland is seriously out-to-lunch on that one. Toronto is one of the major financial institutions in the world. I'm sure you have heard of the TSX, have you ever heard of the CSX (for Cleveland...um...NO!). Toronto clearly comparable to New York City when it comes to number of residents, the transport system, and the amount of activity going on.

Also, Mcleans doesn't rank medical schools. They rank medical/doctoral schools. So, U of T or McGill may not even be the best medical schools in the country. Places like UBC, Alberta, Manitoba, Dalhousie, UWO...the list could easily go on. They are all known for different things. Will TO provide you with the best medical training as a student? I don't know. However, consider how many residents, fellows, and other attendings will be able to get to something else before you may have a chance to do it. On the other hand, not everywhere in Canada, or the world, has a quaternary health care centre. So, Toronto does get some of the most advanced cases in the world.

So, its important to step and really realize that when it comes to the medical school, Mcleans is certainly not right. When it comes to the school itself...what decides what's best. Is having amazing research you as an undergrad may never get access to make it a wicked school for you? I highly doubt it. Is an environment highly conducive to learning and preparation for future education good for you? Probably. Will all the major research institutions provide this...I don't know. I go to a medical/doctoral school in Canada that is consistently ranked low. We hate Mcleans because we ranked so low because we admit so many people with extraordinarily low averages. However, we are the only medical/doctoral school in the province and if we reject all these people, there are only a few other places in the province they can attend. Now, consider this. Our medical centres is considered one of the best places in the world for cardiology research. We have a leading experts in HIV/AIDS research...and I mean multiple world-class researchers when it comes to this. Some of the laboratories in the city deal with diseases/pathogens that are seen in only a few other places in the world. But I will be one of the first people to admit that the undergrad science programs suck balls. We don't have the diversity in courses as other schools and some of the courses that need a lab. component (like Molecular Biology) don't have one because of a lack of funding.

Its important to really take these rankings with a grain of salt because I honestly don't think they have the student's interests first in mind when they are created.

 

[xylem29]

First of all, operationivy, you are clearly misinformed about some things in Canada. Toronto gets more funding than McGill hands down when it comes to research. In fact, the only school in NORTH AMERICA that produces more papers than Toronto is Harvard. McGill is a great school, don't get me wrong, however, it is so hard to say that Toronto is better than McGill or vice versa. Montreal may be a cooler city to some, and Toronto may be a cooler city to others. The person who said TO was Canada Cleveland is seriously out-to-lunch on that one. Toronto is one of the major financial institutions in the world. I'm sure you have heard of the TSX, have you ever heard of the CSX (for Cleveland...um...NO!). Toronto clearly comparable to New York City when it comes to number of residents, the transport system, and the amount of activity going on.

Also, Mcleans doesn't rank medical schools. They rank medical/doctoral schools. So, U of T or McGill may not even be the best medical schools in the country. Places like UBC, Alberta, Manitoba, Dalhousie, UWO...the list could easily go on. They are all known for different things. Will TO provide you with the best medical training as a student? I don't know. However, consider how many residents, fellows, and other attendings will be able to get to something else before you may have a chance to do it. On the other hand, not everywhere in Canada, or the world, has a quaternary health care centre. So, Toronto does get some of the most advanced cases in the world.

So, its important to step and really realize that when it comes to the medical school, Mcleans is certainly not right. When it comes to the school itself...what decides what's best. Is having amazing research you as an undergrad may never get access to make it a wicked school for you? I highly doubt it. Is an environment highly conducive to learning and preparation for future education good for you? Probably. Will all the major research institutions provide this...I don't know. I go to a medical/doctoral school in Canada that is consistently ranked low. We hate Mcleans because we ranked so low because we admit so many people with extraordinarily low averages. However, we are the only medical/doctoral school in the province and if we reject all these people, there are only a few other places in the province they can attend. Now, consider this. Our medical centres is considered one of the best places in the world for cardiology research. We have a leading experts in HIV/AIDS research...and I mean multiple world-class researchers when it comes to this. Some of the laboratories in the city deal with diseases/pathogens that are seen in only a few other places in the world. But I will be one of the first people to admit that the undergrad science programs suck balls. We don't have the diversity in courses as other schools and some of the courses that need a lab. component (like Molecular Biology) don't have one because of a lack of funding.

Its important to really take these rankings with a grain of salt because I honestly don't think they have the student's interests first in mind when they are created.

Don't forget to mention the Toronto International Film Festival - clearly, Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal are Canada's New Yorks!! I have no clue where the hell you got Cleveland from...let's not forget about Carribana - the largest festival of its kind in North America. I already know that Montreal and Vancouver are ranked far ahead of Toronto as the "it" cities in NA, but to say that Toronto is like Cleveland???

 

[Marquis_Phoenix]

I'm going to ignore the issue of the University of Toronto's merits, particularly when I go there for undergraduate myself.

But to provide a historical backdrop as to why Mcgill is seen in such a positive light in the United States and abroad. Mcgill, almost from the very beginning, had a very strong emphasis on research. Aside from William Osler, it had other pioneers in medicine such as Penfield (localization experiments in epilepsy patients), etc. In physics, Ernest Rutherford performed his experiments that led to the discovery of the alpha particle and its function in radioactive decay. So it maintained a very rich history of doing groundbreaking research through the early to mid 20th century.

Akin to Montreal at the time, Mcgill was a bastion of elitism, with only 3% of the student population speaking French. Mcgill was largely out of reach to the 10,000 francophone graduates as a result.

However, during the Quiet Revolution from 1960 to 1966, that elitist, aristocratic culture disappeared, transforming Mcgill into a more egalitarian institution in a number of ways. First, it was argued that since Mcgill received the majority of the government's funding the university should be equally accessible to the francophone segment of the population. Similarly, much of its undergraduate body comes from Quebec, at present.

There were changes in other respects as well. Whereas Quebec had previously been the least taxed province in Canada, it suddenly became the most taxed. This has had an enormous impact on the general impression of Quebec in the rest of Canada as well as its own research performance. Montreal still maintains this aristocratic, European style old-money sophisticated culture, but not to the same extent.

Mcgill essentially tanked in comparison to its rich history due to funding cuts in the 1980s and early 1990s, and has only recent begun to make a come back. In contrast, Toronto began making headway during that same period of time.

I think it is primarily because of this history and long-standing connection with the United States, in addition to its feel as an Ivy League school (which is true, it is significantly smaller than the University of Toronto, which is more like a UC Berkeley or Michigan Ann Arbor).

So I can definitely understand the perceptions of those outside Canada. Mcgill probably has slightly greater prominence outside Canada than the University of Toronto, given that 20% of Mcgill's undergraduate body are international students, which is a significantly higher % than Toronto. When they say it is the Harvard of the North, they're right. Mcgill is as close as you get to an Ivy League style school in Canada, although the comparison is rather facetious. University of Toronto is much more like a large state school.

So in a way, which one you would desire to go to (if you were a lucky enough international student to be accepted to both) depends as much on your personality as much as the merits of the schools (which are relatively equal).

 

[akinf]

I'm going to ignore the issue of the University of Toronto's merits, particularly when I go there for undergraduate myself.

But to provide a historical backdrop as to why Mcgill is seen in such a positive light in the United States and abroad. Mcgill, almost from the very beginning, had a very strong emphasis on research. Aside from William Osler, it had other pioneers in medicine such as Penfield (localization experiments in epilepsy patients), etc. In physics, Ernest Rutherford performed his experiments that led to the discovery of the alpha particle and its function in radioactive decay. So it maintained a very rich history of doing groundbreaking research through the early to mid 20th century.

Akin to Montreal at the time, Mcgill was a bastion of elitism, with only 3% of the student population speaking French. Mcgill was largely out of reach to the 10,000 francophone graduates as a result.

However, during the Quiet Revolution from 1960 to 1966, that elitist, aristocratic culture disappeared, transforming Mcgill into a more egalitarian institution in a number of ways. First, it was argued that since Mcgill received the majority of the government's funding the university should be equally accessible to the francophone segment of the population. Similarly, much of its undergraduate body comes from Quebec, at present.

There were changes in other respects as well. Whereas Quebec had previously been the least taxed province in Canada, it suddenly became the most taxed. This has had an enormous impact on the general impression of Quebec in the rest of Canada as well as its own research performance. Montreal still maintains this aristocratic, European style old-money sophisticated culture, but not to the same extent.

Mcgill essentially tanked in comparison to its rich history due to funding cuts in the 1980s and early 1990s, and has only recent begun to make a come back. In contrast, Toronto began making headway during that same period of time.

I think it is primarily because of this history and long-standing connection with the United States, in addition to its feel as an Ivy League school (which is true, it is significantly smaller than the University of Toronto, which is more like a UC Berkeley or Michigan Ann Arbor).

So I can definitely understand the perceptions of those outside Canada. Mcgill probably has slightly greater prominence outside Canada than the University of Toronto, given that 20% of Mcgill's undergraduate body are international students, which is a significantly higher % than Toronto. When they say it is the Harvard of the North, they're right. Mcgill is as close as you get to an Ivy League style school in Canada, although the comparison is rather facetious. University of Toronto is much more like a large state school.

So in a way, which one you would desire to go to (if you were a lucky enough international student to be accepted to both) depends as much on your personality as much as the merits of the schools (which are relatively equal).

Most state schools in the US have really been labelled as not being all that great. Some are great (read: all of the UCs, Chicago, and Washington when it comes to medicine), however, I think to say McGill is like the Ivy of the North and Toronto is the state school shows a lack of understanding of the divide typically associated between the two. I go to neither and I must say I really want to go to UBC or Toronto for medical school, however, it is really easy for me to recognize just how good McGill is. Afterall, reputations are built on a lot more than just talk.

 

[leviathan]

Although I've never been to NYC, I have friends from Toronto who have. As big as Toronto is, they say it is still nothing in comparison to New York City. The quality of a city shouldn't be determined by its size, though. I still think Vancouver is the best city out of all the places I've been, but for other reasons than urban density.

 

[operationivy]

Although I've never been to NYC, I have friends from Toronto who have. As big as Toronto is, they say it is still nothing in comparison to New York City. The quality of a city shouldn't be determined by its size, though. I still think Vancouver is the best city out of all the places I've been, but for other reasons than urban density.

To compare Toronto to a city like NY is a bit ridiculous....sorry to the Ontario people again. To me, Toronto seems to be a similar to an average size U.S. city....something like Detroit, Cleveland or St. Louis. Maybe, on a good day, more like Boston or Washington D.C. But NY!! Montreal is similar in size to the aforementioned cities, however it's cultural depth, diversity and architecture make it one of the most interesting cities in the world....it kind of reminds me a bit of Barcelona. I mean Montreal has it's own Formula one race!!

 

[xylem29]

To compare Toronto to a city like NY is a bit ridiculous....sorry to the Ontario people again. To me, Toronto seems to be a similar to an average size U.S. city....something like Detroit, Cleveland or St. Louis. Maybe, on a good day, more like Boston or Washington D.C. But NY!! Montreal is similar in size to the aforementioned cities, however it's cultural depth, diversity and architecture make it one of the most interesting cities in the world....it kind of reminds me a bit of Barcelona. I mean Montreal has it's own Formula one race!!

Not saying that TO is comparable to NY - but believe me, I've been to St. Louis. On a good day, TO makes St. Louis and Detroit appear to be third world - I'm sorry, but if your city is developed and comprehensive, then a well developed public transit system is a must. You are making some of the most pointless comments - Toronto also has its own F1-Race...so what? I'm not saying anything about Montreal - I already know that it is higher ranked as the "cutural place to be" than Toronto is - but your comparison of Toronto to St. Louis or Detroit leads me to believe that you've never actually spent any significant amount of time in Toronto. Also, that you are semi-trolling on this issue - blea dat sucka, trust me - Toronto, on a normal day, has travelers from all over the world...Koreans especially. St. Louis and Detroit was essentially white and black. In St. Louis, even the fast food chinese restaraunts were run by blacks...so if diversity, % of international travelers and tourists and ESL students (read Koreans), and public transit is an indicator of a city's worth, then Toronto is nowhere near the bottom that is the majority of US cities - especially all the midwest cities.

Some facts that you clearly didn't know -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto

"The Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) is the third largest public transit system in North America after the New York City Transit Authority, and Mexico City Metro.[38] The Government of Ontario operates an extensive rail and bus transit system called GO Transit that links the neighbouring cities and suburbs with the City of Toronto."

"Toronto is the largest city in Canada"

"As Canada's economic hub and a major global city, Toronto has highly developed finance, telecommunications, transportation, media, software production and medical research industries. The city is home to the CN Tower and a majority of the country's corporate head offices and transnational corporate offices. Toronto's population is cosmopolitan, which reflects its role as a major destination for immigrants to Canada."

Oh that's right!?? I forgot, St. Louis and Detroit were "global" cities too...hahaha

"In 2006, Toronto was rated as the most expensive city to live in Canada.[8]"

Toronto is up there buddy - it may not be comparable to NYC, but Toronto is 100% comparable to Vancouver and Montreal.


Although in terms of quality of living...

The analysis is part of an annual World-wide Quality of Living Survey, covering more than 350 cities, to help governments and multinational companies place employees on international assignments

....Each city is based on an evaluation of 39 criteria, including political, social, economic and environmental factors, personal safety and health, education, transport, and other public services. Cities are ranked against New York as the base city, which has an index score of 100...

16. Toronto

St. Louis and Detroit...I dunno, the list didnt' go beyond the 51st ranking...hahahaha

One thing is for certain, since I live in TO - I see the cosmopolitan, international, and global nature of the city everyday - I see that a lot of people are not from Toronto, that there are a lot of expatriates working here. Again, St. Louis and Detroit...umm yeah...check out the threads about WashU and SLU, always, always - the point is always brought up that the city itself is the negative point about these schools, that St. Louis is boring and dreary....hahaha

 

[pattycanuck]

Toronto - Indy car (mainly NA crowd)
Montreal - F1 (definitely more worldy/cultured) 😀

 

[Marquis_Phoenix]

Most state schools in the US have really been labelled as not being all that great. Some are great (read: all of the UCs, Chicago, and Washington when it comes to medicine), however, I think to say McGill is like the Ivy of the North and Toronto is the state school shows a lack of understanding of the divide typically associated between the two. I go to neither and I must say I really want to go to UBC or Toronto for medical school, however, it is really easy for me to recognize just how good McGill is. Afterall, reputations are built on a lot more than just talk.

My point was to compare Toronto Ann Arbor, Chicago, UCs and the like. Those are its peer schools.

The division between Mcgill and Toronto is one of culture, and size and student body reflect that culture.

I never said that Mcgill's reputation is built on talk. Its reputation is built on a strong history of success.

What is to be noted is that in recent years, Mcgill has faltered in comparison to its grand legacy, while Toronto has stepped up simultaneously.

For the purposes of medical school education, both are of similar quality. For the purposes of research reputation, Mcgill relies much more on its distant past than Toronto.

Here: http://scientific.thomson.com/press/2005/8290754/

http://www.sciencewatch.com/sept-oct2005/sw_sept-oct2005_page1.htm

I don't know if you have access to the second one, so I've extracted the relevant indicators:

Average number of citations per paper from 2000-2004 (top 3 listed):

Neurosciences U. Ottawa (9.33) McGill U. (9.31) U. Laval (9.06)

Molec. Bio./Genetics U. Toronto (17.25) McGill U. (16.11) U. Montreal (11.63)

Clinical Medicine McMaster U. (10.26) U. Ottawa (8.43) U. Toronto (7.71)

Immunology U. Western Ontario (16.03) U. Toronto (13.48) U. Ottawa (13.39)

Microbiology U. Toronto (8.27) U. Calgary (7.96) U. Brit. Columbia (7.56)

Biology & Biochemistry U. Toronto (9.57) U. Brit. Columbia (9.12) McGill U. (8.37)

Total Number of Citations:

Clinical Medicine U. Toronto (84,325) McGill U. (34,098) U. Brit. Columbia (31,478)

Immunology U. Toronto (7,198) U Brit. Columbia (3,366) McGill U. (3,216)

Microbiology U. Brit. Columbia (2,647) U. Toronto (2,331) McGill U. (1,986)

Biology & Biochemistry U. Toronto (22,251) McGill U. (12,560) U. Brit. Columbia (11,348)

Molec. Bio./Genetics U. Toronto (22,273) McGill U. (13,196) U. Brit. Columbia (6,256)

Neurosciences U. Toronto (17,173) McGill U. (14,608) U. Brit. Columbia (7,541)

"Still, despite such strong showings here and there by other schools, the dominance of the University of Toronto and the University of British Columbia is hard to ignore. Toronto, in particular, in addition to its expected clout in the total-citations rankings, was among the highest in impact in 14 fields out of 21 fields, including five #1 appearances. In four fields, in fact (engineering, biology & biochemistry, molecular biology & genetics, and education), Toronto was tops in impact and total citations. And the University of British Columbia, well-represented in the total-citations rankings thanks to its high paper output, also scored among the high-impact institutions in seven fields�notably, in space science, where it earned the #1 spot. McGill University, meanwhile, was hardly slack, earning six berths among the impact rankings along with its 11 appearances in the total-citation lists."

 

[GoldenBoy6]

Toronto - Indy car (mainly NA crowd)
Montreal - F1 (definitely more worldy/cultured) 😀

Might as well put in my two cents. Toronto is one of the world's most multicultural cities, as most immigrants migrate to Toronto. Montreal is also a very multicultured city, but some people in the US think of it as being more diverse because of speaking both English and French, but I have been to Montreal and it definitely has a more EuroAmerican feel to it but the diversity I would say is greater in Toronto. But that comparison doesn't really say much. As far as med schools go, Mcgill and UofT are both great schools, trying to say which one is better is really ridiculous. Its also difficult to compare Toronto to a US city. It's smaller than New York but has that same multi-cultural feel. If you are comin from the States, both schools would be a great bet so any ranking of which one is better is really trivial.

 

[qwopty99]

Despite the London Times ranking, perhaps I am biased towards McGill because I am from the U.S. In the U.S., McGill has a stellar reputation and most people don't know too much about U of T.

it seems YOU don't know too much about U of T. all u are doing is praising montreal/mcgill.

Toronto! I have heard that Toronto is the "Cleveland, Ohio" of Canada. Just kidding.....Just kidding...don't get all worked up

hey - did u get a chance to see the major league baseball team in montreal? OOPS! hehe - they went BANKRUPT a few years ago!

hey - wanna catch a good NBA game? let's go to montreal! OOPS!! MONTREAL DOESN'T HAVE AN NBA TEAM! let's go to toronto and check out Chris Bosh and the Raptors!

so ur right - if u say toronto is more similar to cleveland than montreal is, in that toronto has MLB and NBA teams, they i agree with u.

as for the univ. rankings lists - you're right - the Shanghai Jiaotong has come under scurtiny. as for the London times, let's see what wiki has to say:

"However, it is to be noted that THES (London times, higher ed supplement) ranking also faces severe criticisms. An Australian researcher castigates THES ranking because it arbitrarily put his very own Australian university far higher than it deserves. etc etc."

anyways - enough of this idiotic thread derailment...

 

[rskhan29]

The methodology in the London Times is more accurate....hence the reason that no one speaks of the Newsweek rankings....sorry my Ontario friends. As far as cities go, if one were given the choice, would they rather live in Montreal or Toronto? The choice is clear to me.....amazing restarants, great music scene (NINJA tunes is based in Montreal, great new bands), musueums, architecture....Montreal! Hope I get into McGill! Didn't even apply to U of T. Would be happy to leave San Francisco for Montreal.

More accurate? Okaay..

P.S. Is San Franciso by any chance the name of a street in a Montreal suburb or something?

 

[docbill]

You guys take a pill and get a room or something.
It was cute.. but now its just not funny.

Both are great CANADIAN schools and you should be happy for that.

UBC, QUEENS, WESTERN, UofAlberta... UofC... UofO.. all of our schools are great schools. And make great doctors. Anyone who disagrees, come down to the US and pay $40K US/year for an education (that in my opinion... lower than Canada's medical universities).



BTW,

Montreal is such a sweet city. Great looking people.. I get to speak French... being a prick there is acceptable .. amazing food, cheaper rent. Alcohol at any store. No need for LCBO etc.. McGill great reputation. People less stressed and more layed back.

Toronto.. hmm expensive and not as classy, bunch of grumpy people, multicultural.. well so is montreal. Prob more so in montreal. In Toronto we only have 2-3 main cultures/minorities.. Montreal has more. BUT UofT is definitely the place to be for PhD. Ground breaking science and technology.

 

[operationivy]

Toronto - Indy car (mainly NA crowd)
Montreal - F1 (definitely more worldy/cultured) 😀

Exactly! The presence of a Formula 1 race in Montreal (and NASCAR in Toronto) is symbolic of my point. People in Montreal do not want a NBA team because they don't need to "borrow" components of U.S. culture. Toronto is just like any American city...nothing unique about it.

 

[xylem29]

A couple of more things about Toronto being "just another US city" as if it is like Detroit or Cleveland.

Canada's MTV - called Much Music, is headquatered and stationed in Toronto.

Toronto is so cultured and cosmopolitan, that the Toilet Boys http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=41089139 used to play here all the time (during their prime 1999 - 2002)...what's the catch? The lead singer is a transvestite.

Which leads me to Church street and Crews nightclub - a gay bar with Drag Queen performances, 50% of the patrons are straight, equal mix of girls and guys - how's that for a cultured city?

That's right, on certain nights - you can see drag queens, dikes, gays, make up wearing Robert Smith wannabes on the subway, on the streets of Toronto. It's awesome.

As for music you ignorant operationIvy you, Kill Cheerleader is from Toronto and plays in Toronto a lot..in LA and New York also (of course) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Cheerleader

I'd say that Toronto is as close to being cultured in arts (International Film Fest), sex (tolerance and celebratory nature of homosexuals and alternative lifestyles", religion (there is tons of different ones), and music (lees palace, el macombo, rivoli, horseshoe tavern, etc)...

you could say that it is not european or classy as montreal sure. you could say it's american sure. but i would say that it is a New York wannabe city, if we're talkin about transexuals and other alternative underground cultures...most just say that Toronto is a copy-cat of Chicago.

So yeah, living in Detroit and St.Louis would be DRASTICALLY different my friend...drastically. I want my dose of homos and drag queens once in a while, and I highly doubt lame a** midwestern and southern USA would provide that...HA.🙂

 

[xylem29]

You guys take a pill and get a room or something.
It was cute.. but now its just not funny.

Both are great CANADIAN schools and you should be happy for that.

UBC, QUEENS, WESTERN, UofAlberta... UofC... UofO.. all of our schools are great schools. And make great doctors. Anyone who disagrees, come down to the US and pay $40K US/year for an education (that in my opinion... lower than Canada's medical universities).



BTW,

Montreal is such a sweet city. Great looking people.. I get to speak French... being a prick there is acceptable .. amazing food, cheaper rent. Alcohol at any store. No need for LCBO etc.. McGill great reputation. People less stressed and more layed back.

Toronto.. hmm expensive and not as classy, bunch of grumpy people, multicultural.. well so is montreal. Prob more so in montreal. In Toronto we only have 2-3 main cultures/minorities.. Montreal has more. BUT UofT is definitely the place to be for PhD. Ground breaking science and technology.

Let's count:

Spadina = Chinatown (where most are now vietamese or mandarin speaking recent mainland immigrants)

Danforth = greektown

Coxwell and gerrad = little india

Eglington west and **** = little jamaica

bathurst and st. clair = orthodox jewish

college and **** = little italy

some other place = little portugal

yonge and finch = little korea

and when i walk through the eaton centre or downtown toronto, i recall seeing almost the entire world's ethnicities and cultures...it is true that by raw numbers, you could say that there are some "minorities" that are actually quite large - south asians and chinese being the top two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

Here's demographics of montreal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Montreal

In terms of languages and ethnicities, please explain how Montreal is more multicultural than Toronto 🙂

Come on baby! Come on! Where the other Torontonians at??!!

I am not saying that Toronto is world-class, b/c it is not. I am not saying that it is New York or LA. I am also not saying that it is better than Montreal or Vancouver, b/c it is not. What I am saying is that it is not on the same level as your average US city.

 

[rskhan29]

dp

 

[rskhan29]

Montreal is too gritty and run down to be classy. Are you people sure you go to the same city? Granted, the night life is amazing for a weekend trip, but a large portion of Montreal is very nasty. Toronto's infrastructure is also starting to crumble due to Federal and Provincial neglect, but it's no where near as bad as Montreal is yet.

Toronto has far more than 2 or 3 minorities. Greeks, Italians, Jamaicans, Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Africans...you name it, and there's probably a sizable community in Toronto.

The only thing wrong with Toronto is the lack of civic pride from Torontonians, one of the few things Montreal has us beat in.
P.S: There's no NASCAR in Toronto.

 

[qwopty99]

Exactly! The presence of a Formula 1 race in Montreal (and NASCAR in Toronto) is symbolic of my point. People in Montreal do not want a NBA team because they don't need to "borrow" components of U.S. culture. Toronto is just like any American city...nothing unique about it.

that's a pretty lame reply. get your facts straight.

first of all, it isn't NASCAR in toronto, it's INDY. and i don't know enough about formula 1 and indy to tell the difference, but the cars look the same to me (i guess i'm not american enough).

secondly, people in Montreal root for the home team, irregardless of the sport. they did it for their baseball team, they do it for their CFL team (which has been resurrected from the dead, several times, over the last few years), and they WOULD do it for their NBA team, IF they had one. montreal rooted for the expos, but they didn't have the finances to keep it around. heck,

MONTREAL HAD A BASEBALL TEAM BEFORE TORONTO DID! IN 1969! ALMOST 40 YEARS AGO!! THE AMERICAN PASTTIME! DUH!!! WHO'S BORROWING AMERICAN CULTURE???

here's a serious question: what is ur experience with toronto? like really? have u ever been there? for how long? what did u get to see? what did u do there?

 

[operationivy]

A couple of more things about Toronto being "just another US city" as if it is like Detroit or Cleveland.

Canada's MTV - called Much Music, is headquatered and stationed in Toronto.

Toronto is so cultured and cosmopolitan, that the Toilet Boys http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=41089139 used to play here all the time (during their prime 1999 - 2002)...what's the catch? The lead singer is a transvestite.

Which leads me to Church street and Crews nightclub - a gay bar with Drag Queen performances, 50% of the patrons are straight, equal mix of girls and guys - how's that for a cultured city?

That's right, on certain nights - you can see drag queens, dikes, gays, make up wearing Robert Smith wannabes on the subway, on the streets of Toronto. It's awesome.

As for music you ignorant operationIvy you, Kill Cheerleader is from Toronto and plays in Toronto a lot..in LA and New York also (of course) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Cheerleader

I'd say that Toronto is as close to being cultured in arts (International Film Fest), sex (tolerance and celebratory nature of homosexuals and alternative lifestyles", religion (there is tons of different ones), and music (lees palace, el macombo, rivoli, horseshoe tavern, etc)...

you could say that it is not european or classy as montreal sure. you could say it's american sure. but i would say that it is a New York wannabe city, if we're talkin about transexuals and other alternative underground cultures...most just say that Toronto is a copy-cat of Chicago.

So yeah, living in Detroit and St.Louis would be DRASTICALLY different my friend...drastically. I want my dose of homos and drag queens once in a while, and I highly doubt lame a** midwestern and southern USA would provide that...HA.🙂

In response to above.....Here is a direct quote (below) about Montreal's music scene from "Onemusic"...a highly regarded music magazine from the UK. This doesn't even mention the fact that Ninja tune is based in Montreal. Ninja tune is Amon Tobin's label, the greatest electronica DJ on the Planet who moved from Brazil to London and now to Montreal. Kid Koala, probably the best turntablist/scratcher in North America is from Montreal. I have no idea what killcheerleader is. And it is really too bad that you don't know what Formula 1 racing is.....it really shows the depth (lack of) of your knowledge. Formula 1 racing is international circuit racing....it is one of the top 3 sports watched in the world (not in the U.S.-there is no permanent Formula 1 race in the U.S.) along with Soccer ("football") and cycling. You seem to be defining the "liberal nature" and depth of culture in Toronto by the number of "drag queens" there are-that is pretty immature thinking as you keep mentioning it over and over again. A diverse population is just one component of the cosmopolitan nature of a city. A few other things that Montreal has......an amazing architecture musuem, the Montreal Musuem of Modern Art, an incredible symphony (the Montreal Symphony Orchestra which plays at Place Des Arts, a massive cultural complex downtown), the Montreal Jazz Festival (the largest jazz festival in the world) and the Montreal Film Festival . With regard to the Film festival, we all know the the Toronto Film festival is larger and more well known, so Toronto can get 1 point (but only ONE!) for that. And with regard to restaurants and food!! Toronto doesn't even come close....your idea of gourmet food is a Harvey's burger with cheese! In response to another person's comment, yes, I have been to Toronto....multiple times. I have cousins who live in Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal....hence the fact that I know about Canada and the reason I am applying to med school there from California.

Broadcast: 28/11/2005
""""""""""""""""""""Is Montreal the new Seattle? Find out with the Arcade Fire
Listen to the doc
Have your say
Photo gallery


More audio clips from our Canadian cousins:

DJ Champion on the electronic music scene

DFA 1979 on Canadian music

John Cummins of the Montreal Mirror

Hot Hot Heat on other parts of Canada


Forget London, Manchester, New York and LA. In 2005 the hottest city on the musical map isn't in the UK or the USA, but a French Canadian city undergoing a huge cultural renaissance.

Like Seattle 15 years ago, Montreal has become a hotbed of musical talent, whether it's guitar rock in the form of The Dears and Wolf Parade, or its long line of dance music heritage from Tiga through to Kayne West's DJ A-Trak.

Spearheading the city's renaissance are The Arcade Fire, who's debut album Funeral has become one of the most talked about records of 2005, and looks set to beat Coldplay and Gorillaz to the top of every end of year poll.

But what it is about Montreal which makes it so buzzing? How has a place on the edge of musical and geographical mainstream produced some of the most talked about records of 2005?""""""""""""""""""""

 

[operationivy]

I think the overall problem with Xylem 29 is that his taste is not refined enough to be culturally discerning.

 

[rskhan29]

I think the overall problem with Xylem 29 is that his taste is not refined enough to be culturally discerning.

Why did I see condescending attitude coming? hmmm...
Whether you like it or not, Montreal is Canada's second city now. The premiere city in Canada is Toronto, and has been for quite some time. I don't want to attack Montreal too much since it is a good city, but you're beginning to get irritating.


Do you think Montreal is the only city in the world with a museum and symphony? Even Cleveland has those.

your idea of gourmet food is a Harvey's burger with cheese!

Yeah, and in Montreal its fries with cheese!</sarcasm> Troll confirmed?

 

[SMRT]

I seriously can't believe this argument is going on.

Besides we all know that Vancouver is the best city in Canada! 🙂

 

[xylem29]

I think the overall problem with Xylem 29 is that his taste is not refined enough to be culturally discerning.

well - that's not true, irrespective of my taste - I can recognize and am aware of higher culture - even if I do not find it appealing.

I think the overall problem with you is that you seem to think that I am debating with you over Toronto vs Montreal. Your post about the music scene in Montreal is POINTLESS - because I never doubted the music scence in Montreal.

My posts are in response to your ignorant comments about how Toronto is like St. Louis, Detroit, and Cleveland - and on its good days is like Boston.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD - I CONCEDE THAT TORONTO IS CULTURALLY INFERIOR TO MONTREAL.

And your comment about my taste in culture not being "refined" enough shows how ignorant you are - looks like you didn't learn anything in college did you?