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If it were speeding, then I agree. But drug abuse is a problem in medicine so that's a big red flag because we're at risk for it at baseline.
Unmatched EM applicant commits suicide
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Because there is levels to this thing sir/ma’am. You know that and there isn’t a reason to pretend you don’t
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She was a medical student there Also pre-lim surgery is less competitive. It is a hurdle to get it over but it’s not something that can completely stop your career in medicine however it limits competitive specialties.
We tell everyone all the time who have spotless records that because they failed step 1 For whatever reason even though it’s only 24 hours of performance on a standardized test. That they can’t go to certain specialties but someone who Have a good scores but had past issues with drug abuse the law that Everything is going to be fine and they can apply to whatever specialty is just plain dishonest.
I’m not pretending anything son. Been here for 15+ years.
Either she should have never been accepted to medical school or she should have matched. Because what’s in question has nothing to do with her academics. And what’s in question has been answered in her favor by the University of Rochester, the state of New Jersey and the state of Nevada.
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Either she should have never been accepted to medical school or she should have matched. Because what’s in question has nothing to do with her academics. And what’s in question has been answered in her favor by the University of Rochester, the state of New Jersey and the state of Nevada.
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I'm licensed, so do I automatically get whatever residency I want regardless of anything else?
Of course not.
An application has multiple components to it. Any major red flags of any kind tend to exclude you from competitive specialties. You fail Step 1, you're not getting ortho. You repeat a year, you're not getting ortho. You have no ortho LOR, you're not getting ortho. You get the idea.
In this specific case, I would bet had this woman applied broadly to FM she'd be a resident right now.
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This is nonsense. Had I applied to ortho and nothing else, I wouldn't have matched either. Does that mean the system is at fault or is it on me for not having a competitive application?
She applied widely to FM this past cycle and still couldn’t get in. I hope and assume she had FM letters, FM shadowing experience.
FM is often recognized as the easiest to attain residency for US MDs. If she was not qualified for such, why was she qualified for medical school?
FM is often recognized as the easiest to attain residency for US MDs. If she was not qualified for such, why was she qualified for medical school?
If no amount of academic goodwill(step scores, grades) could ever compensate for her numerous serious transgressions, she should have never been allowed into a medical school in the US.
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I think we all get your point. In reality, its not one person making the decision, its different people with different interests, standards and barometers, and they do not have to abide by each others decisions. If a medical school admissions comittee decides someone can come to medical school that doesnt mean I as a program director (I am not a program director) have to agree.
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Family is difficult in some areas usually for US MD medical student if you get in the family medicine at your own family medicine associated residencies. That is your best shot it’s unlikely that someone from New York is want to go out into a family medicine program in Miami. Also people with high board scores apply to family medicine all the time they are 260 are going to family medicine so they are not particularly begging for people.
A California family medicine program is NOT just going to want to take anyone who applies.
I am has a lot of spots and will be her best option family medicine has a small number of openings and typically they want people who want to do family medicine.
Also she was able to get a residency program a one year prelim surgery year sometimes that’s all some people are able to get but she still could be an urgent cares in practice and still do some nursing home health stuff.
Also med school admissions committees ask you if you would be OK with being a primary care doctor. Not if you could or could not match into derm or Ortho.
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Why are people here like this?
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I hadn't seen that, is there an article that mentions this since the OP article mentions EM only.
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There has to be WAY more to this story. From the limited information we have she had an otherwise stellar application. If the only red flag on an application was a previous criminal conviction then I have a hard time believing that she couldn't find a program willing to take her. Maybe EM and Ortho were competitive choices but after being a student and Rochester and an intern at other programs it is shocking that some PD didn't give her a slot if she was as competitive of an applicant as this article suggests. My guess is that there may have been some other areas of concern on the application beyond a remote criminal conviction. I've written letters for medical students with pretty similar past transgressions who have gone on to match into competitive programs and practice without any issues.
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She apparently did 3 cycles, and it didn't say much about the 3rd in the article, so that wouldn't surprise me. Though I saw this case though one of Pamela Wible's many social media feeds, and like a lot of stuff she posts, I started wondering what's missing from the story. Concerned here if there's not some sort of red flag we're not knowing about here aside from the old drug convictions. Were they adult or just juvenile convictions? Was there something academic or performance-related we don't know about? She was able to get a training license at least in two states, so that doesn't appear to be an issue.
I am interesting in knowing the disconnect between the UofR adcoms and the programs looking at someone with a background like this. (lights up @NotAProgDirector batsignal)
[mention]KarlPilkington [/mention] not just one charge. She has a felony charge and misdemeanor charges involving heroin, robbery,assault, DUIs. Not sure what she was eventually convicted of.
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Yeah those seem like some big charges.
What I can't understand his how she got prelim spots yet was never able to get a categorical. I know prelim spots are less competitive but if they were willing to overlook past criminal issues if someone came to work for me with a criminal past and did a stellar job I'd almost certainly give them a categorical spot in the next cycle.
Couldn’t agree more. The inconsistencies defy logic.
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She never applied FM. EM is moderately competitive.
She probably would have matched FM or IM if she played her cards that way, but she didn't, unfortunately
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BTW, this is what really grinds me about Wible. How the hell do you get letters from people completing suicide telling you to "make my story go viral!" and not think that there's something seriously disturbing about what you're out here doing. I'm curious if they had any previous contact prior to that letter.
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I see what you're saying about Wible. My first impression of her was positive. However, when a physician coworker of mine, who happened to be a great guy and professional superstar, recently and unexpectedly committed suicide, I sent her an email hoping to have her help raise awareness, since she openly solicits for this kind of information. I didn't expect miracles, but I at least thought she'd send a one or two line personal email back and acknowledge him on her site like she has others. Instead I got no response from her. But I did get put on her blog's email spam list and now get frequent solicitations to sign up for her paid webinars. It was a little bit disappointing and it makes me wonder about her, a little bit. And now this whole thing about the woman allegedly writing stuff in her suicide note, "Contact Dr Wible so I can go viral" is just bizarre.
"If you are having thoughts of suicide, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 (TALK) or go to SpeakingOfSuicide.com/resources for a list of additional resources."
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Because prelim spots require far less investment on the part of the program.
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She's been discussed a lot on these forums, particularly the resident forums. She does a lot of noble things such as having sort of a personal physician crisis line, but the stuff that she publishes has a tendency to play fast and loose with facts to try to make it as sensational as possible. I'm not sure how much of that is intentional but I'm be extremely weary of her as an information source. I saw her cited in some physican wellness grand rounds last year and I cringed.
She's been promoting that "do no harm" documentary for a couple years now. One of these days I should watch it because it's sure to gain a decent amount of press in MedEd. Apparently she has a virtual screening this sunday, but it clashes with "The Last Dance" so oh well, next time...
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15 years, but, before this thread, in which you have posted 10 times, you only had 44 posts in those prior 15 years. That is less than 3 posts per year. SDN is made up of posts. The more one writes, the better that person is known by others. One person is conservative, another liberal, one is colored by religion, one is nice, another is an dingus, that sort of thing. What was the line from George Michael? "There's things that you guess/And things that you know/Boys you can trust/And girls that you don't" I've become aware of several members that have had problems in their lives, and other posters have, IRL, helped them. The social community is real. But, you got to be part of it.
I've barely posted to this site. No arguing there. Doesn't mean I don't regularly browse.
My seniority was referenced to defend myself against an abrasive poster. Sure, I agree with him there are levels to criminality. Given the arrests and convictions were known before med school applications, she should have never been admitted.
The suicides of match applicants happen every year. But, rarely, are the facts available for us to see like here.
My seniority was referenced to defend myself against an abrasive poster. Sure, I agree with him there are levels to criminality. Given the arrests and convictions were known before med school applications, she should have never been admitted.
The suicides of match applicants happen every year. But, rarely, are the facts available for us to see like here.
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Never questioned your seniority
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An applicant with her story would clearly be atypical, but I'm surprised that she didn't match. I get the sense there's something missing from the story. She was able to complete two prelims -- so she was able to get a training license and get on boarded. Although her past history is less than ideal, it sounds like she was able to overcome that and move on. There's some key piece of the story missing.
Someone asked why her home program didn't take her. In most cases, hospitals and schools are two different entities. I don't get any say into which students our school admits, and the school gets no say in whom we take into the program.
I can't say whether she should or shouldn't have been admitted to medical school -- although if someone was willing to take her as a prelim, then that suggests that she met minimum standards. It also might be illegal for them to discriminate based upon a disability. I believe there have been court cases where schools have refused admission to students because they would not be able to get a job afterwards, and schools have lost. The courts would say that you can't predict that, and it's up to the student. Schools can refuse admission if a student doesn't meet minimum standards and/or can't perform essential functions.
Someone asked why her home program didn't take her. In most cases, hospitals and schools are two different entities. I don't get any say into which students our school admits, and the school gets no say in whom we take into the program.
I can't say whether she should or shouldn't have been admitted to medical school -- although if someone was willing to take her as a prelim, then that suggests that she met minimum standards. It also might be illegal for them to discriminate based upon a disability. I believe there have been court cases where schools have refused admission to students because they would not be able to get a job afterwards, and schools have lost. The courts would say that you can't predict that, and it's up to the student. Schools can refuse admission if a student doesn't meet minimum standards and/or can't perform essential functions.
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A good friend of mine killed himself because he didn't get accepted to medical school. He hid his depression well. He was a smart, popular, good looking guy and from the outside appeared to have everything going for him. He hung himself in his parents house to get back at them for them for pressuring him to become a doctor and to hurt his brother whom he always felt was more successful and favored. What he did was devastating to his family and everyone around him, including myself. I don't think it would have made sense to spend days and weeks arguing, "He'd still be around if only they'd accepted him." It wouldn't bring him back nor eliminate the devastation his act of murdering himself caused to those that loved him.
We'll never know all the circumstances around why this woman killed herself. She took that with her to the grave. I don't think it makes sense to keep trying to use her suicide as way to score points in an argument. Maybe it's time we let her rest in peace and argue our points on their own merits without using her death for persuasion. No amount of debate points scored trying to prove she got a raw deal from the Match or a bunch of ortho-jocks on residency admission committees is going to bring her back, even if true.
I just hope her family and friends can someday heal from the devastating pain and loss they're feeling. My condolences go out to them. I know how they feel.
I agree that there is probably more to the story
I watched her CSPAN video Leigh Sundem | C-SPAN.org where she did mention multiple relapses in the past. While I do feel for her and imagine how hopeless not matching three times in a desired speciality must have felt, I think I can see how PDs and hospitals would be hesitant to match someone with history of substance abuse and relapses in specialities: Ortho, EM and to a lesser extent Gen Surg where access to controlled substance can loosely be unchecked. Its a huge risk tbh. Say the pressure of residency got to her (which is invariably true for most people at some points) and she relapsed and started abusing controlled substances (which she could in theory have easier access to do by doing procedures in EM or Ortho), how does the hospital explain that especially if patient safety is compromised. Ideally, I think she would have a better chance in a program where someone in GME leadership has had a similar journey but nonetheless still very risky aka representation is great but this is a very tricky situation.
In her CSPAN video, she had mentioned that she was interested in Infectious Disease, granted this was before med school. Maybe the outcome would have been different if she pursued IM or Psychiatry but we would never know. I think that she should have perhaps avoided those specialities she applied for to A) honor her sobriety and B) be a bada** in her field. She sounds like someone who would have made good contributions to a field where her experiences would directly influence her patients directly especially if she was passionate about it.
Tragic story nonetheless. I hope she finally finds peace.
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We will make 70K to live in the rural South as FM PGY1s and 63K to live in the semi-rural town with less of a commute.
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Right? I am raising my eyebrows at those liking the posts that say “the match didn’t kill her. She was unwell and would have killed herself or relapsed regardless of matching or not.” We have no way to know whether the Match directly contributed to her death or not but if I were saddled with 6 figures of debt and hadn’t matched after 2 prelim years and had worked my butt off for a decade to redeem myself, I’d feel hopeless as well. And likely feel as if there wasn’t a way out, especially with a lot of doors to alternate career paths being closed by COVID19.
Really curious to know what sort of advice she got and whether someone told her that she had options as a resident with a year of residency training. So sad to see that a person who worked hard for phenomenal scores and publicly testified on CSPAN to help others who suffered like she did was held back by her past. Shouldn’t we be the first people to believe that humans can change their ways and make a turnaround? Isn’t it one job to believe in our patients ability to eat better, exercise more, and break free of their addictions?
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Nope. Otherwise I'd counsel diabetics and give them a chance before starting metformin.
I think we can all agree physician suicide is a systematic problem. Doctor's go into med school happier on average than their age matched peers and leave it more depressed on average than their age matched peers. 28% of residents experience a major depressive episode during residency vs 7% of age matched adults. The completed suicide rate is 2x for doctor's what it is the general population -- this is despite attaining high levels of academic, professional and financial success. An entire graduating medical school class of doctor's (300) commit suicide each year. Who can forget the resident suicide of Dr. Potts in House of God, it was as much of an issue back in 1978 when that book was published as it is in 2020. What has changed? There is something horribly wrong with the status quo.
This story is a tragedy. Medical school, residency and attendinghood is a crucible. It stresses out even happy, healthy accomplished people to the point of depression and suicide. If there is any lesson to be learned from this it's that people with underlying mental illness and addiction issues should think long and hard about whether medicine is the career that is going to lead to their long term happiness and fulfillment. There are easier ways to make a living, and there are ways to make a living that doesn't worsen existing mental illness via long working hours, exposure to traumatic situations and to constant abuse.
The system failed Leigh Sundem at several points. She should have been counseled in college that pre-med was not a good idea with her background. She should not have been admitted by the med school and placed into the crucible. Then when it came time apply for residency her school did her a disservice by letting her apply ortho without a backup plan. Then when it came time to apply for a second and a third time she was already a "damaged applicant" with red flags in her background. The program directors reasonably did not want to take a chance on her when there are plenty of qualified medical students to chose from. They were unfortunately proven right about her mental instability, when she committed suicide. Her school again did her a disservice by not calling favors with the local hospital system PD's to find her a spot in rounds 2 and 3 of applying. The two partners that share equal blame in this episode are Leigh and her medical school, both had failings and shortcomings.
I applaud her family for setting up a scholarship in her name -- I think it's a way to have a lasting positive impact in her community and to make her efforts in medical school worth something since she never got to practice medicine as an attending. We did the same for a friend in my medical school class who died in our second year -- it will be the only fund I have and will donate into for my medical school.
For those of you trying to score political points on IMG's vs american graduates, and the match system. Please stop it's embarrassing.
This story is a tragedy. Medical school, residency and attendinghood is a crucible. It stresses out even happy, healthy accomplished people to the point of depression and suicide. If there is any lesson to be learned from this it's that people with underlying mental illness and addiction issues should think long and hard about whether medicine is the career that is going to lead to their long term happiness and fulfillment. There are easier ways to make a living, and there are ways to make a living that doesn't worsen existing mental illness via long working hours, exposure to traumatic situations and to constant abuse.
The system failed Leigh Sundem at several points. She should have been counseled in college that pre-med was not a good idea with her background. She should not have been admitted by the med school and placed into the crucible. Then when it came time apply for residency her school did her a disservice by letting her apply ortho without a backup plan. Then when it came time to apply for a second and a third time she was already a "damaged applicant" with red flags in her background. The program directors reasonably did not want to take a chance on her when there are plenty of qualified medical students to chose from. They were unfortunately proven right about her mental instability, when she committed suicide. Her school again did her a disservice by not calling favors with the local hospital system PD's to find her a spot in rounds 2 and 3 of applying. The two partners that share equal blame in this episode are Leigh and her medical school, both had failings and shortcomings.
I applaud her family for setting up a scholarship in her name -- I think it's a way to have a lasting positive impact in her community and to make her efforts in medical school worth something since she never got to practice medicine as an attending. We did the same for a friend in my medical school class who died in our second year -- it will be the only fund I have and will donate into for my medical school.
For those of you trying to score political points on IMG's vs american graduates, and the match system. Please stop it's embarrassing.
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You don't counsel patients before starting metformin? Are you trolling? You start metformin as an adjunct to lifestyle changes and because you know people aren't perfect, especially when they're first getting starting at making a big change to their diet and exercise routine. At least that's how the endocrinologist explained it.
I shadowed and rotated at a clinic where we used a low carb diet to get patients off their meds with great success, so I do believe in giving people chances to make a turnaround. Obviously it didn't work for everyone but it worked for some. Again I think you're trolling me so not going to explain further, haha.
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Exception that proves the rule, you answered your own question. Majority of patients will not benefit from counseling and trials of lifestyle change, many pcp's concomitantly start metformin as a result. Why is this surprising to you?
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It’s not surprising at all. What I take issue with is the implication that one wouldn’t have any faith in the patient so therefore they’d skip the motivational interview and lifestyle counseling that you’d do before you hand the patient the metformin prescription.
One of the reasons I went into medicine was because I worked with a lot of people with diabetes who told me their physicians didn’t talk to them about how to make dietary changes. I know that those patients were just sharing with me their side of the story, and I personally rotated with some physicians who did do lifestyle counseling. I think in the late 1990s/early 2000s it may have been less popular in medical to do extensive dietary counseling. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. And I stand by the statement that’s it’s our job to believe in our patients. During obesity clinic hours we saw people make big changes after the tenth time we saw them. The doctor I worked with didn’t give up on his patients and his patients were so grateful for it. So when people joke about this I do take it seriously.
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Slightly tongue in cheek.
I do counsel but I also immediately start meds because I know most won't/can't make the required changes.
That's not a judgement as I'm not sure I could do it either.
That’s incredibly harsh. All her mistakes were years before medical school and residency. If she was allowed a second chance and shone the entire 12 years after getting clean, not matching 3 years in a row despite getting sterling letters of recommendation had to be incredibly discouraging particularly having hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I’m sorry you don’t have any compassion for her. I hope you are never in a position where you need it. People are human, all her mistakes were decades ago and shouldn’t be held against her forever.
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We don’t know she didn’t have SLOEs and I read somewhere she also did apply for FM this last cycle. Killing herself doesn’t mean the programs were right not to take her. It’s a shame if the med school felt she had overcome things why didn’t they advocate for her. It sounds like for the past 12 years she did everything right. It’s tragic.
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Somebody is dead and her family is grieving. I'd like to see this thread go dark, as our arguing back and forth with each other over the details is not helpful, potentially harmful, and strikes me as insensitively indulgent to the extent that it is beneath our station.
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I suspect that your allegation is baseless and unfounded, and more so I suspect that you suffer from a severe lack of empathy.
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I don’t know when you applied but schools don’t control an application list and don’t control PD’s interview list. You also don’t know what advise was offered
there is way to much conjecture and attempt to assign blame in a situation that should just be recognized as a sad loss of a life and family left grieving
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Weird. I got a personal response from her in minutes back in 2018 when I contacted her about something regarding a colleague, and she offered to call immediately if I needed anything despite the late hour. Maybe she's using some kind of filters now because she gets too many contacts?
Still in residency so it wasn't so long ago. At my medical school there were checks and balances to prevent people from going unmatched. If you weren't a good candidate for a competitive speciality like ortho they sat you down with the career advisor and a dean and strongly suggested to apply for a backup speciality in addition to the primary speciality if you wanted the medical schools highest level of support in your application. They also had deep and longstanding collegial relationship's with all the PD's at the University and local programs so they could place harder to match candidates.
Her medical school could have done so much more to help her match. Even if for the sake of argument, they couldn't have helped her match with her background -- why would they accept her as a medical student? That just put her in the vulnerable position of being an unmatched medical school graduate. I don't think it's controversial to say the medical school screwed up. Either when they admitted her or when they didn't help her secure a matched position after graduating her from their medical school. Pick your poison.
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There should be somewhat of a relationship between the medical school and the affiliated residency program.
Regardless, even if there wasn't this relationship she must have sat down with the ortho PD/ faculty and went over her application and gotten letters of recommendation.
They should have told her that her chances of matching were poor, especially if they weren't going to take her. We don't know if this type of a meeting ever happened though and whether she took their advice to heart.
I had several red flags (professionalism issue, repeating a year) and sat down with the PD from my affiliated medical school. I put my cards on the table to realistically see if I could match anywhere and he gave me appropriate advice.
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you both seem to have a lot of confidence in your knowledge about what the school did and didn’t do. I find that confidence unfounded
I am confident that her medical school shares some blame in graduating her from their school, and her ultimately ending up going unmatched. When they graduate a M.D. from their school they are stating to the world that the have produced a doctor that is ready to begin residency. One that has made it through their rigorous curriculum. When she doesn't match coming from a name brand US MD school, one doubts the school's sincerity in awarding the degree and their efforts to help her match.
They either shouldn't have admitted her, shouldn't have graduated her or they should have helped her match to a residency program. Either way the school doesn't walk out of producing a US allopathic MD who doesn't match blameless.
We had people who weren't cut out for residency in my medical school class. Guess what happened to them? They failed out of medical school. They weren't stuck in the endless void of not matching and being driven deeper into depression.
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