Unsupportive Wife

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stc55

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I have been a special education teacher for four years, and I have been married for three. While in college I supported my fiance' (now my wife) while she made two major/career changes. Back in college I looked at switching to pre-med path, but my advisor told me to make sure that there were no other career paths, so I stuck to special education. However, after being a teacher for a few years now I still have the strong passion to be a doctor, however my wife does not support the career change and says that I am just following random urges. How do I show her that being a doctor is more than just an urge? Or am I being selfish in wanting to make a career change at this point?
Thanks

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Well... I think it's interesting that your wife was able to make career changes with no "penalty" but you are not?

Did she make these changes while still doing her undergrad? Did she just change her major a couple times vs actually going back to school/changing careers multiple times?

What about your current job makes you unhappy? Is it the specific situation you are in, or is education as a whole?

I have my degree in education and I had to let it go, I can't deal with what education is turning into... it's maddening to me. We can't discipline or grade students too "harshly" because we may break their fragile egos, and standardized testing results pave the way of success.

Have you had any experiences with the medical field that is tugging you in this direction? Have you done any shadowing yet/spent time with any doctors to feel this thought out further?

Ultimately, your wife should understand and support you, if you decide to change your career. She is your partner and should understand that you want to do something rewarding and meaningful to you. There is no shame in walking away from a good paying job to pursue something that you will feel more fulfilled from. If the two of you have no children, then now is an even better time to act.

Figure out a specific game plan- what and when are you going to do things to make this a reality? Start with when/where you will take your outstanding prerequisite work, how will you study for the MCAT and when will you take it? When do you want to apply to med school? What is the overall timeline?

Perhaps if you present her with more specifics of how you are going to accomplish this, how long it will take and a general cost/what hardships the two of you may face if you are going to school she will take you more seriously than if you simply just say, "I want to be a doctor." More like, "So, I looked into the local university and it's only $xxx for a semester and I have around 30 credits I would need to take before I apply to med school. I could do them in xx amount of time while still working full/part time and then apply by 20xx."

Just some random thoughts to get you started... I don't know what else to say, I'm starting PT school which is slightly different and it's my "boyfriend" vs "husband" but he has been 110% over the top supportive of my career change, he even relocated his job/bought us a house about 2 miles from the school I am attending. (Of course, I also only applied to a handful of schools in the area that I currently live in because of him and other family health reasons).
 
I have been a special education teacher for four years, and I have been married for three. While in college I supported my fiance' (now my wife) while she made two major/career changes. Back in college I looked at switching to pre-med path, but my advisor told me to make sure that there were no other career paths, so I stuck to special education. However, after being a teacher for a few years now I still have the strong passion to be a doctor, however my wife does not support the career change and says that I am just following random urges. How do I show her that being a doctor is more than just an urge? Or am I being selfish in wanting to make a career change at this point?
Thanks

You are not crazy to want a career change - you are in the right place! What I would say is this: if you want to show your wife (and yourself, and any adcoms in the future) that you are serious about this get in to the hospital and start volunteering. Learn exactly what this career is all about, and see how you like the feel. If volunteering goes well, you can explain to your wife why this is the right path for you (or apologize and reconcile if it doesnt :)), and you can be sure that this is or is not the right path for you. Until you have gotten your hands a little dirty, there's no way you can be sure. Gray's Anatomy/Scrubs/etc is not a reliable source of info (not that that's you, but even being a patient or whatever doesn't really tell you much about "the business" of medicine)- get stuck in, and see how it goes!
 
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Well she chose to switch majors. In her first major she would have been able to fairly easily get a job right out of college, but then when she switched her new major pretty much required her to go get her masters if she wanted a job in that field and I fully supported that. But, then like you said, teaching is turning into much more of a business. Even in my limited years of experience I have seen it change, and with legislation which was passed in my state, teachers and other public employees are getting screwed over. But anyway, I am going to volunteer and shadow over this summer to see if I truly do want to do this.
 
I agree with all of this. 1. my husband is completely supportive, he can't wait for me to be happy in my job/life. 2. do what it takes to show her that you are serious, it's not a whim. If that doesn't get her support, well you have bigger problems.... 3. start shadowing a physician, see if it's what you really want to do. Since you're in education, you may have summers off to be able to work on this... Additionally, some schools have programs that allow you to shadow all kinds of different specialties as a 'student' that usually take place during summer break... best of luck to you...
 
Changing majors in college doesn't even compare to changing careers into medicine, in my opinion, so I wouldn't use that as your main source of ammunition to get your wife on your side. You are asking her to support you for a minimum of 4 years through med school, not to mention that you will be working 80 hrs/wk during residency for a paltry salary, and have a huge amount of debt hanging over your heads. Likely she had her life with you comfortably planned out, and now you are f'ing that all up. You really need to explain your deep down motivation for doing this, come up with a plan for how you can make it work, and explain how it will be better for both of you in the long run. It's do-able, but it's tough, and if your wife is not on board it can rip your relationship apart (unfortunately I've seen it happen). Best of luck with everything, I hope you can work it out!
 
i came into this thread planning on saying that you can't do it without an unsupportive wife, and i stand by that, however your wife is right to be concerned. i am not saying your decision is on a whim, but it is better to be safe than sorry in this case. deciding on a whim is like deciding you are ready to have kids based on a nephew you babysat for 20 minutes while it slept. this is a HUGE undertaking and for her to be on board, she needs to know it will all be worth it. shadow, volunteer, take classes part time, etc.

as a person from experience, i tried the premed path and wasn't too serious so I didn't do well. when i decided 2-3 years later that i want to try again (6 Cs and 2 more kids later), my wife said "you can do it but you need to support a family and work full time, so it's on you." when I came through with As while working, she knew I was completely serious and has been fully on board ever since. you can definitely get there.
 
I have been a special education teacher for four years, and I have been married for three. While in college I supported my fiance' (now my wife) while she made two major/career changes. Back in college I looked at switching to pre-med path, but my advisor told me to make sure that there were no other career paths, so I stuck to special education. However, after being a teacher for a few years now I still have the strong passion to be a doctor, however my wife does not support the career change and says that I am just following random urges. How do I show her that being a doctor is more than just an urge? Or am I being selfish in wanting to make a career change at this point?
Thanks

If I understand you right, you are trying to guilt your wife into supporting this sudden whim of yours instead of listening to her concerns. Am I misunderstanding you?
 
If I understand you right, you are trying to guilt your wife into supporting this sudden whim of yours instead of listening to her concerns. Am I misunderstanding you?

No, not at all. I am just trying to get an unbiased view of my situation. I am just trying to figure out if I am being rational or irrational.
 
No, not at all. I am just trying to get an unbiased view of my situation. I am just trying to figure out if I am being rational or irrational.

It's not rational to bring up her changes in major during a discussion on whether you should go to medical school. It's not relevant.

What is relevant is whether she believes that you are serious about working through this very long process. It will be at least 10 more years from the time you start the process until you are earning big money as a doctor. Your wife knows you better than we do. If she is worried about you starting off on a 10 year long and expensive process on a whim, it might be because you have a history. Consider her point of view, it has value for you.
 
coming from someone who just finished and was married at the time that I wanted to try this, I am talking from experience.

Your wife is scared. She is probably wondering whether your are going to follow through on an endeavor that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars as well as put your lives on hold. You may decide to go to medical school and if you do not have any children, you may think that it would be best to put that off and this does not sit well with HER biological plan. Or maybe you do have children and she is afraid the onus of doing all of the child rearing will be on her. Which, most of it will be. From what you are saying in your posting, it does not sound that she is unsupportive rather she wants to make sure that you are truly serious about this and will see it through to the end.

It will be impossible to do this without her support, especially if you have children. So what you need to do is to assuage her fears. First and foremost, talk with her. Ask her to put everything on the table, all of her feelings, fears, insecurities. While she is doing this, you do not talk. You listen (not pretend to listen like us husbands tend to do) but rather listen. Don't answer your phone, watch TV, read the paper, etc. Just listen. What this is telling her is that you care about her feelings going into this and want to reassure her. When she is finished telling you what she is feeling, talk with her about what you are feeling. Discuss with her WHY you want to undertake medical school now. What have you been feeling all of these years. What has been gnawing at you. Lay out your case in front of her. Then agree that each of you will take each other's feelings into consideration and that right now, you are looking into things.

Go to some open houses together, talk to other people. Have her talk to other wives (my wife does this all of the time, so if you would like her to chat with your wife via e-mail, PM me). Each time she brings up a concern, do not poo poo it away. Rather acknowledge it. Lay out a plan. What you are going to do to get ready to apply, to take the MCAT. And when it comes to applying, involve her as well. When I was applying, I made a very long list of the schools I am interested in and then my wife and I sat down and I asked her where she could see herself moving to. Where she refused to move to, I deleted it from my list.

Alas, I am getting ahead of myself. First, talk with her and find out what her fears are and alay those fears. Good luck.
 
I am going to be short and crude....first of all, do you have any kids?
If you have no kids whatever happens in your future is for the best.
I was a teacher myself and married (no kids). Went back to school to satisfy premed requirements. 4.0 GPA. volunteered weekends in the hospital. Showed everybody I could do it. Wife mostly supportive. Got into a good school.
Fast forward to 2 years later....wife left, said she could not handle it, both the time away from home and the time spent studying while at home. She was not going to be happy basically raising kids mostly by herself.
Even though I was upset, I do not regret my decision for a moment and wake up happy every day. Found somebody else who understands my career and is happy with it.

So, in, summary, be aware of the fact that this choice could end up costing you your marriage. Are you ready for that? On the other hand, your marriage could end even if you stuck with education. You need to do what makes YOU happy. If you are not happy, your marriage is going to suck anyway. Of course there is also the possibility that your wife will be happy with this change once you prove to her that you can make it. Just be ready for anything. Unfortunately most people have no clue what being a physician entails and the daily routine is not as glamorous as it might seem. Just because you decided to sacrifice your life for the sake of medicine and your patients, it does not mean that your wife shares the same view. Many partners are not willing to accept that, and there is nothing wrong with it. You gotta look at it from their perspective.

As an aside, I would not bring up the past in this discussion with your wife. It will make things bitter, plus it pales in comparison to the changes you will go through in life if you indeed change your career.
 
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... your marriage could end even if you stuck with education. You need to do what makes YOU happy....

When I saw the title to this thread, I dreaded the inevitable post telling the OP to put his "dream' above his marriage.

A husband who has earned his wife's trust will not have a problem getting her support for his dreams. When she sees that he will sacrifice not only for his dream, but also for his family, she will trust him. Wives are taught not to fear abandonment (physical or emotional) by loving husbands.

My wife has had her fears about this path, also. She and I even posted our heated "discussion" in a thread here in order for others to understand a wife's point of view (look up MrsLongshanks if you are interested).

But marriage and dreams are not opposite poles. Your marriage is not better because you give up more dreams nor are you better able to have more of a dream by having less of a marriage. The two can be complementary - and will be, if you treat your spouse as a partner and not as an obstacle.
 
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When I saw the title to this thread, I dreaded the inevitable post telling the OP to put his "dream' above his marriage.

A husband who has earned his wife's trust will not have a problem getting her support for his dreams. When she sees that he will sacrifice not only for his dream, but also for his family, she will trust him. Wives are taught not to fear abandonment (physical or emotional) by loving husbands.

My wife has had her fears about this path, also. She and I even posted our heated "discussion" in a thread here in order for others to understand a wife's point of view (look up MrsLongshanks if you are interested).

But marriage and dreams are not opposite poles. Your marriage is not better because you give up more dreams nor are you better able to have more of a dream by having less of a marriage. The two can be complementary - and will be, if you treat your spouse as a partner and not as an obstacle.

Yeah, I almost responded with the obligatory follow your dreams speech. However, I thought twice as what Ed is saying is true. If you really want to become a doctor, your wife should be willing to work with you. If she does not want to at all, it least you know your marriage will probably end up being a statistic.

However, do everything you can to make both of your dreams work. After that it IS on her. A good wife will help and support, not hinder and demean. In the end one of you will decide if the marriage will work or not. The other does not have any say, but they do have a decision. Make sure you are prepared for this, as the odds state at least one of us married couples in this thread will divorce.
 
Basically, it boils down to one question. Which can you live without, Med-school or your Wife? Answer that, and proceed with caution.
 
You are getting very good advice here, but you will get the best advice if your wife's side of the story is heard as well. That might mean finding someone you can both talk to, or bringing her along on this forum and let her present her side.Then she might see that you are seriously looking at ways of achieving your goals that you can both live with. It can be easy to think of oneself as being objective when pushing a narrative championing one's personal desires (that could be happening on both ends).
 
I am going to be short and crude....first of all, do you have any kids?
If you have no kids whatever happens in your future is for the best.
I was a teacher myself and married (no kids). Went back to school to satisfy premed requirements. 4.0 GPA. volunteered weekends in the hospital. Showed everybody I could do it. Wife mostly supportive. Got into a good school.
Fast forward to 2 years later....wife left, said she could not handle it, both the time away from home and the time spent studying while at home. She was not going to be happy basically raising kids mostly by herself.
Even though I was upset, I do not regret my decision for a moment and wake up happy every day. Found somebody else who understands my career and is happy with it.

So, in, summary, be aware of the fact that this choice could end up costing you your marriage. Are you ready for that? On the other hand, your marriage could end even if you stuck with education. You need to do what makes YOU happy. If you are not happy, your marriage is going to suck anyway. Of course there is also the possibility that your wife will be happy with this change once you prove to her that you can make it. Just be ready for anything. Unfortunately most people have no clue what being a physician entails and the daily routine is not as glamorous as it might seem. Just because you decided to sacrifice your life for the sake of medicine and your patients, it does not mean that your wife shares the same view. Many partners are not willing to accept that, and there is nothing wrong with it. You gotta look at it from their perspective.

As an aside, I would not bring up the past in this discussion with your wife. It will make things bitter, plus it pales in comparison to the changes you will go through in life if you indeed change your career.

+1

I saw it happen to two nontraditionals in my SO's class... :eek:
 
Teaching your wife? Do you use positive reinforcement (snacks) or positive punishment (a small electric shock)? Is she allowed a say in it or do you crate her at night along with the doggie in your profile if she doesn't do as told? :eyebrow:

Let's see if we can get the full quote here instead of three words in the middle of a sentence "Wives are taught not to fear abandonment (physical or emotional) by loving husbands".

Hmm, how could a loving husband teach a wife not to fear? Oh, of course he would use cattle prods and physical restraints, that would teach her not to FEAR. Obviously. (eyes rolling)
 
If you really want to become a doctor, your wife should be willing to work with you. If she does not want to at all, it least you know your marriage will probably end up being a statistic.

However, do everything you can to make both of your dreams work. After that it IS on her. A good wife will help and support, not hinder and demean.
I interpret this to mean "if your wife isn't saying yes to everything you claim as your dream, she's a bad wife and your marriage won't last." Whether you intended that view or not, it strikes me as a bit selfish. Every marriage is different, I know, but my wife and I would give anything for each other. She would pull out of medical school tomorrow if I had a good reason for asking her to do so, and similarly, when I made it into a school that will require us to be separated, I was completely willing to decline the acceptance if she asked me to. (She wants this for me, so she didn't make that request - but I had alternate plans fully ready to go.) Of course I'm biased, but I feel that a relationship's peak can be achieved when both members are completely willing to make those sorts of sacrifices for the other, yet know that such sacrifices would not be asked without a very, very good reason.

stc's wife says that he's just following random urges. Maybe she's just saying that because she doesn't want to indirectly be put through the medical school experience (which does have negative effects, most notably financial strain, personal stress, and lack of time to spend together), or maybe she's saying it because there's some truth to it. Who are we to say what it is?

stc55, you can justify your passion for medicine to us all you like, but at the end of the day you really need to justify it to yourself and to your wife. What do you have to do in terms of preparing to apply to medical school? Are there courses that you need to take or retake? Do you need to take the MCAT? Do you need to get in some hours volunteering/shadowing? Here's how I would do it: talk to your wife and find out what's on her mind. If it's really just a matter of her worrying that this is a something of a whim, you can easily prove otherwise by beginning to volunteer somewhere. Do it regularly, reaffirm to yourself that it's what you want to do, let your wife see how happy you are with your experiences, and then take it a step farther: begin taking the classes you need. The financial commitment needed isn't huge, and that will also show your wife just how serious you are (and what your chances of success might be). If there are no problems there and if you're meeting with success, then you're good to go for medical school (although your wife still won't be fully prepared for the changes that involves).

I don't think it's selfish to want to change your career path, but as someone above mentioned, she didn't marry you with the idea that you'd be doing medical school. We all have some vision of how our lives will play out, and you're throwing a wrench in hers. Perhaps this will mean that you're incompatible with each other, in which case you'll need to consider what matters to you more: your wife, or your career. Ideally it won't come to that, but you don't want to choose your wife and then feel resentful.

I'm the type of man who would choose his wife/family over career (yet who is ambitious enough to try and grab both), but I don't judge those who choose the other way. It's all a matter of knowing yourself and what will make you happy.
 
I was more...fascinated by the teacher/pupil relationship that you had set up in the sentence, with your wife as the submissive and yourself as the dominant. Also, enough pain and "teaching" can easily extinguish fear by crushing the spirit!

Since you have chosen the meaning of the word "teach" that confirms your presupposition, I'm sure that your conclusion will also fit your prejudice. Your psychoanalysis is appreciated for all of the value that it provides.
 
I interpret this to mean "if your wife isn't saying yes to everything you claim as your dream, she's a bad wife and your marriage won't last." Whether you intended that view or not, it strikes me as a bit selfish.

How on earth did you get this? I wrote, "If you really want to become a doctor, your wife should be willing to work with you. If she does not want to at all, it least you know your marriage will probably end up being a statistic." Please note the bolded words they are not absolutes, and carry a substantially different meaning than your interpretation. However, yes your interpretation is a selfish way to look at the world.

I did not say that she was a bad wife if she did not bend to his every whim. To clarify my statement, a partner whom is COMPLETLY unsupportive of a realistic yet difficult to attain dream; is selfish and probably not that committed to a marriage. You know they say for better or worse for a reason.

A good partner compromises and does not put their needs over the other individuals needs. If his dream is to go to med school, and he has a solid plan to make it work, understands the tolls it will take, weighed those out and decided that he needs this, a good partner would support him. According to him, he has already helped her get her dream. Now it is her turn to give for his, as he has dreamed of this for years. He implies that he is unhappy in his career; she should want to make him happy. They should work out a compromise to make each other as happy as possible.
 
Thank you guys for your honest opinions. I really need to get a solid plan together and present it her in that light. But, thanks for being honest and showing me unbiased viewpoints. I do need to do a lot more before I can prove to her that I am serious.
 
I am envious of those of you that have the supportive mate, but that is not the ideal. I HAD a supportive mate until it came time for my MCAT and we had one of our biggest fights ever. Eventually I had to put my dream on hold to be a single mom until my child got older and I was able to apply and get into school. The signs of his unsupportiveness were there, but then they were masked by the supportive moments. Fastforward to now... my marriage is over, but I am about to start school in a few months. My point is more than likely yur wife may change her mind and get on board, but if she doesen't you do not want to find out during MCAT, application time, med student time etc. etc. You will have more than enough stress to deal with.
 
How on earth did you get this? I wrote, "If you really want to become a doctor, your wife should be willing to work with you. If she does not want to at all, it least you know your marriage will probably end up being a statistic." Please note the bolded words they are not absolutes, and carry a substantially different meaning than your interpretation. However, yes your interpretation is a selfish way to look at the world.

I did not say that she was a bad wife if she did not bend to his every whim. To clarify my statement, a partner whom is COMPLETLY unsupportive of a realistic yet difficult to attain dream; is selfish and probably not that committed to a marriage. You know they say for better or worse for a reason.

A good partner compromises and does not put their needs over the other individuals needs. If his dream is to go to med school, and he has a solid plan to make it work, understands the tolls it will take, weighed those out and decided that he needs this, a good partner would support him. According to him, he has already helped her get her dream. Now it is her turn to give for his, as he has dreamed of this for years. He implies that he is unhappy in his career; she should want to make him happy. They should work out a compromise to make each other as happy as possible.
Sorry for misunderstanding your intent. I largely agree with you, but I still think that medical school (and medicine) is a really big request to make of a significant other. Those of us who are already deep into the process know that it's a really long, hard road. Of course most of the work (and suffering) is on the person actually going through the process, but the significant other is along for the ride.

It's easy to say "if it makes your significant other happy, you should do it" but the reality is that the process of getting into medical school is nerve-wracking, and the stress doesn't end there. I can say for sure that my wife isn't smiling and laughing as much as she used to before medical school; I come from a "medical family" so I know how this goes and am confident that she'll be as happy as ever once she's nearing the end of her residency training, but that's quite a long time (seven years in her case, and I probably don't need to say it, but that could certainly be much longer).

Aside from the stress of having a crabbier significant other, there's the stress of potentially having to move (assuming a medical school acceptance comes from afar), of lifestyle change (returning to the student lifestyle - not very appealing), and as if these changes weren't bewildering enough on their own, you get much less time with your significant other. If you're not familiar with the process, I'd imagine that a person could be left wondering if their significant other is changing into a person that they don't really know or understand anymore. It's a frightening thought.

You make a commitment to someone in marriage. Ideally they would stand by you and support you through anything, but it goes both ways. When you choose this path, your significant other is going to be feeling it, too. Some partners are better about tolerating it than others; some people going through the process are better at buffering their partners than others. Nobody can say for certain what will happen, but I think it's perfectly understandable that someone would be apprehensive if their partner wanted to do this and it wasn't expected. It doesn't help that the internet is full of stories and sayings about how medical school ends nearly every relationship that enters, including marriages.

Saying all of that, stc55 should probably make sure that his wife is very much involved and informed with the process. Medical school is not a great relationship eater - it's a major, prolonged stress, but as long as a couple knows what they're up against, they can make it.

For what it's worth, the first two years of medical school seemed to be the hardest on my wife - she's now ending third year, and the stress levels have gone down massively. (I think the stereotype is that the first and third years are the most stressful, though.) We fully expect the first year or two of residency to be just as bad (if not worse), and we're wary of how I'll respond to the stresses of first year... but in general we're a low-stress, low-maintenance couple, and it helps that we both have the same end goal. As long as both people know what to expect and are in it together, they can make it.

True love conquers all, amirite? :thumbup: Keep your relationship as a priority, make sure that you communicate and are open to be communicated with, and the relationship will be a source of positivity through your struggles. That's not limited to medical school, though - it's true for any challenge.
 
Since you have chosen the meaning of the word "teach" that confirms your presupposition, I'm sure that your conclusion will also fit your prejudice. Your psychoanalysis is appreciated for all of the value that it provides.

Your history as a traditionalist with a wife who, by her own admission, has sacrificed her own happiness and well-being (and that of your children) for your dreams presents a picture too unsubtle for good Dr. Freud to bother with. Since the OP hasn't read a few other threads in which your wife expresses her frustrations and might be thinking that your relationship is more typical of those in the US, aka pseudo-egalitarian two working parent household, it's a good thing to put stuff on the table. I should probably add the disclaimer of being in a two-woman partnership, so I am baffled by gender-segregated chores! :confused:

Additionally, it wasn't Freud whose literature flickered out of Broca's area. It was my participation in certain alternative communities, coupled with an ancient touch of sexual assault counselor (no, you're not even remotely a rapist, but damn if those words don't show up in that context), that sprang to mind when I read your words. That said, it all seems that things are SSC and GGG, so YKIOK and we're clear.
 
My wife, God bless her, has been very supportive of my goals. Before deciding on medicine, though, I bounced from idea to idea (after a dissatisfying foray in the engineering profession). I think it took her about six months to start believing that I was serious. My advice, like others have said, shadow, volunteer, and learn all you can about the field. Involve your wife in the process. You need to slowly help her build a mental picture of what your life as a couple will be like if you become a doctor. If money is a motivator for her...casually drive her around town and point out, "Hey, we can get a house like that if I go to med school"...
 
I am envious of those of you that have the supportive mate, but that is not the ideal. I HAD a supportive mate until it came time for my MCAT and we had one of our biggest fights ever. Eventually I had to put my dream on hold to be a single mom until my child got older and I was able to apply and get into school. The signs of his unsupportiveness were there, but then they were masked by the supportive moments. Fastforward to now... my marriage is over, but I am about to start school in a few months. My point is more than likely yur wife may change her mind and get on board, but if she doesen't you do not want to find out during MCAT, application time, med student time etc. etc. You will have more than enough stress to deal with.


Having just gone through something similar, I definitely second the above. I'm getting my MCAT score back today and guess what? my SO of 6 years (and now fiance) broke it off last night because he couldn't handle how much time i was devoting to this (as i'm working full time and he lives over an hour away) and basically believes I won't be able to raise kids anytime soon because I won't be a stay-at-home mom (and nor do i want to be a stay at home mom- another discussion for another time). While it's nice to find out before getting married, it definitely sucks to have it happen during application time so best to figure it out now.
I also second getting a third party to help you both hash it out. I'm a big fan of counseling- sometimes they help us see the stuff we can't because of the barriers we put up.
I really hope things work out for you both!
 
Your history as a traditionalist with a wife who, by her own admission, has sacrificed her own happiness and well-being (and that of your children) for your dreams presents a picture too unsubtle for good Dr. Freud to bother with. Since the OP hasn't read a few other threads in which your wife expresses her frustrations and might be thinking that your relationship is more typical of those in the US, aka pseudo-egalitarian two working parent household, it's a good thing to put stuff on the table. I should probably add the disclaimer of being in a two-woman partnership, so I am baffled by gender-segregated chores! :confused:

Additionally, it wasn't Freud whose literature flickered out of Broca's area. It was my participation in certain alternative communities, coupled with an ancient touch of sexual assault counselor (no, you're not even remotely a rapist, but damn if those words don't show up in that context), that sprang to mind when I read your words. That said, it all seems that things are SSC and GGG, so YKIOK and we're clear.

As I said, your presuppositions determine your conclusion. You presuppose that all traditional single income families have an unhealthy dominant-submissive dynamic. My wife and I are traditional, therefore I am nearly a rapist. As a lesbian, this was want you wanted to think anyway. Thank you for your help with my relationship. You are on ignore now, so I can't promise that any further efforts on your part will be helpful.
 
BTW, it won't stop anything, but for future reference, and for those of you who wish to give me relationship advice - my wife and I have been married for longer than anyone else in this forum (23 years) and we are very happy. We have been willing to showcase our conflicts in order to clarify some of the relationship issues that couples may experience in this process and will probably continue to do so throughout medical school. This willingness is not an indication of the weakness or unhealthiness of our marriage, but rather the contrary.

I'm sorry that some of you are offended at our happiness and want us to be in an unhealthy relationship in order to affirm your own choices, but that simply is not the case. Sorry.

Oh, and one more thing. My wife is at work today and I am unemployed. I suppose this now makes ME the submissive partner. Oh well, I'm to busy to defend myself right now. I've got to wash the dishes from the breakfast I cooked for her, clean the litter boxes and vacuum.
 
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As I said, your presuppositions determine your conclusion. You presuppose that all traditional single income families have an unhealthy dominant-submissive dynamic. My wife and I are traditional, therefore I am nearly a rapist. As a lesbian, this was want you wanted to think anyway. Thank you for your help with my relationship. You are on ignore now, so I can't promise that any further efforts on your part will be helpful.

me said:
(no, you're not even remotely a rapist, but damn if those words don't show up in that context)
:confused:

You heard it here, folks. Lesbians all believe men are rapists, but hey, it's okay to be homophobic since I started it. I think I'll drop this topic before my brain starts to explode even more.

He's since edited it out, mind you, so I don't know the procedure on keeping it in my text without a screenshot.
 
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"The brick walls are not there to keep us out, the brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something. Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don't want it badly enough," - Randy Pausche
 
When I saw the title to this thread, I dreaded the inevitable post telling the OP to put his "dream' above his marriage.

A husband who has earned his wife's trust will not have a problem getting her support for his dreams. When she sees that he will sacrifice not only for his dream, but also for his family, she will trust him. Wives are taught not to fear abandonment (physical or emotional) by loving husbands.

My wife has had her fears about this path, also. She and I even posted our heated "discussion" in a thread here in order for others to understand a wife's point of view (look up MrsLongshanks if you are interested).

But marriage and dreams are not opposite poles. Your marriage is not better because you give up more dreams nor are you better able to have more of a dream by having less of a marriage. The two can be complementary - and will be, if you treat your spouse as a partner and not as an obstacle.

Yuck. He is thinking about making a radical change that will effect the rest of both their lives. It sounds like they're still young and don't have any kids. If this is something he is serious about, and it is not something she wants to be a part of, which is perfectly reasonable, divorce is definitely an option.
 
He is thinking about making a radical change that will effect the rest of both their lives

Precisely why he should work harder at winning his wife to his point of view. He is the one disturbing the equilibrium.

...divorce is definitely an option.

I would not sow such a thought in the mind of someone seeking ways to make things work for himself and his wife. There is another person, living, breathing, pain feeling, anxious etc on other side who has a side to the story too. Divorce is an option... but it smacks of callous self-interest.
 
I would not sow such a thought in the mind of someone seeking ways to make things work for himself and his wife. There is another person, living, breathing, pain feeling, anxious etc on other side who has a side to the story too. Divorce is an option... but it smacks of callous self-interest.

Divorce is certainly premature, judging by the information provided, but it is not simply callous self-interest. It becomes very complex when you consider it may come down to a choice between a dream career and his wife. If he is willing to give up his dream to be a doctor to keep peace at home, he may end up resenting her and it may kill his marriage anyway.

I was personally willing to stop my pursuit of medicine for my wife; it was in fact her who encouraged me to resume the application process. Without the encouragement I would still view becoming a doctor as something that I might have done.... If that is what had happened, I might very well have come to resent her, even though I didn't start out thinking that way.

There are many concerns and considerations, including asking whether he can love and be with someone who is not willing to make the sacrifices necessary for him to become a doctor. It also is necessary to ask (himself and her) why she considers it a whim to be entering medicine now, as he is asking a lot from her if he might change his mind in a year. It is a lot more complex and tricky than saying considering divorce is callous self-interest. That said, her thoughts, feelings and sacrifices are very important and must be considered.

As to introducing the thought in his mind, it is better to look at the whole picture, from the beginning to the end with all the consequences in the open than to look at it as being a simple matter of convincing her with no possibility of long-lasting consequences.
 
I guess I am one of the lucky ones (for now anyways, lol). After the recession pretty much destroyed my career and I had just been laid off for the third time in 3 years my wife, my mother, and my aunt all got together behind my back and decided that I was going back to school. They sat me down and told me that I could do whatever I wanted and we would all work together as a family to make it work. When I said I wanted to be a doctor, they were all shocked. They asked me to make absolutely sure that this is what I wanted and if so that they would be behind me 100%. They are all very happy and excited for me see it through.

Since I have been back at school, there have been a few times where my wife has let me know that she thinks that I need to take a break and spend a little more time with my son, and I do. I also remind her that this is just the tip of the iceburg of me not being available, so if she has a problem with this to speak up now. While I do have an appreciation for being told to take a break from studying, there will be a time when that is simply not going to be an option and the whole family will have to suffer temporarily for the greater good. Nothing is more important to me than keeping my family together, but once med school starts there is no going back. That is the line in the sand, and if she is in for a penny she is in for a pound. At the end of it all, I fully believe we will be a stronger family because of it. I believe that from great adversity grows strong bonds and great success.

Good luck and be strong my nontrad brothers and sisters!
 
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Teaching your wife? Do you use positive reinforcement (snacks) or positive punishment (a small electric shock)? Is she allowed a say in it or do you crate her at night along with the doggie in your profile if she doesn't do as told? :eyebrow:


Oh my goodNESS!!!! Please!!! Our love doesn't include chains, whips, nor electric shocks. ( Although there might be moaning involved. ) I'm not a victim and I don't appreciate your advocacy.

Mrs Longshanks, & I'm proud of it!!!!
 
Well she chose to switch majors. In her first major she would have been able to fairly easily get a job right out of college, but then when she switched her new major pretty much required her to go get her masters if she wanted a job in that field and I fully supported that. But, then like you said, teaching is turning into much more of a business. Even in my limited years of experience I have seen it change, and with legislation which was passed in my state, teachers and other public employees are getting screwed over. But anyway, I am going to volunteer and shadow over this summer to see if I truly do want to do this.

Do it if it is your passion or it could destroy your marriage down the road. Once you start taking courses and she sees the effort you are putting in she will come around if your happiness matters at all to her. The key is to start and be serious about it. Talk is cheap.

Stories like this makes me appreciate my wife even more. Mine went like this

me: baby I want to take prerequisites and pursue medicine
wife: no problem i will just have to pick up an extra shift here and there to help out
me: baby i got into a medical school 3 hours away we have to move you will have to leave your mother and family behind and find a new job
wife: I don't want to leave my mom but.. sure lets do it

What a lucky fellow i am.
 
Shes probably worried about the way in which your career change will effect married life. Do thorough research to show her that things wont change, and if they do change it will be for the best.
 
I think you need to do more than show her you are serious about being a Dr. I think you also need to show her that you are serious about her and that you will continue to make your marriage a priority.

I had several talks with my husband and he was very supportive, though he did have concerns. He talked a lot about what his concerns were and I addressed them and tried to think of ways to keep them from happening.

Good luck!
 
Shes probably worried about the way in which your career change will effect married life. Do thorough research to show her that things wont change, and if they do change it will be for the best.

they will change, and it gets a lot worse for a long time before it gets better....
 
That is an awesome (in the real meaning of the word) post. If you read down the thread to just 3 months ago, you will see that they ended up divorced.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10788035#post10788035

It is important to remember what we are doing to our spouses. The emotional abandonment that happened to that couple is a true danger and spouses are right to be concerned.


Very, very true. I was (un?)fortunate enough to go through a similar experience as an undergraduate student. It was completely unfair to ignore his needs.

That said, her trying to point fingers at the Internet™ for her husband's actions later in the thread is a bit of a stretch.
 
That said, her trying to point fingers at the Internet™ for her husband's actions later in the thread is a bit of a stretch.
I'd heard of Panda Bear's story before, but this was my first time reading over his wife's posts. It seems that she was upset because he wasn't spending his personal time with his family - consumed by his job, and then spending his personal time on forums (which are addictive) and perhaps other things that didn't involve his family. As a stay-at-home mom, she was kept busy with the house and family. She felt neglected, and she felt that the rest of the family as neglected. She wasn't being valued anymore, nor was the work that she was doing being recognized.

It's hard to pick apart how much of it is really due to Panda Bear's actions, and how much of it is due to possibly unrealistic expectations on the part of his wife. I didn't particularly agree with her method of following her husband around virtually... and her posts were practically dripping with resentment. But it offers a valuable lesson all the same.

It's as Ed said - you can't afford to forget your spouse as you go through this endeavor. (And the lesson from Panda Bear: spend less time on the computer and more time with your family.)
 
I'd heard of Panda Bear's story before, but this was my first time reading over his wife's posts. It seems that she was upset because he wasn't spending his personal time with his family - consumed by his job, and then spending his personal time on forums (which are addictive) and perhaps other things that didn't involve his family. As a stay-at-home mom, she was kept busy with the house and family. She felt neglected, and she felt that the rest of the family as neglected. She wasn't being valued anymore, nor was the work that she was doing being recognized.

It's hard to pick apart how much of it is really due to Panda Bear's actions, and how much of it is due to possibly unrealistic expectations on the part of his wife. I didn't particularly agree with her method of following her husband around virtually... and her posts were practically dripping with resentment. But it offers a valuable lesson all the same.

It's as Ed said - you can't afford to forget your spouse as you go through this endeavor. (And the lesson from Panda Bear: spend less time on the computer and more time with your family.)

From just her few posts, I could see logical errors in her thinking. She treats his time at work (being admired by patients and nurses) as if this was his personal time and then expects him to give the rest of his time to his family.

But I've seen this particular logical fallacy before, (very closely and personally) and the fact that it is illogical doesn't mean it should be ignored. A spouse must have her (or his) needs considered. From her few posts we cannot dissect and diagnose this marital disaster, but we can treat it as a cross on the roadside. Something precious died here and so extra caution is indicated.

Edit:
Reading that post again, I think what Mrs. Panda Bear most resented was not how much time he spent online, but his ability to emotionally attach to his "pseudo-friends" online while being unable to be emotionally close to her and his children. She had tried to ignore his emotional detachment, but after several years of suffering from it, she re-discovered his blog and found out that he DID have energy and time to spend making connections - just not to her.
 
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From just her few posts, I could see logical errors in her thinking. She treats his time at work (being admired by patients and nurses) as if this was his personal time and then expects him to give the rest of his time to his family.

But I've seen this particular logical fallacy before, (very closely and personally) and the fact that it is illogical doesn't mean it should be ignored. A spouse must have her (or his) needs considered. From her few posts we cannot dissect and diagnose this marital disaster, but we can treat it as a cross on the roadside. Something precious died here and so extra caution is indicated.

I think what she meant by this was that her husband no longer needed her emotionally because he received admiration at work. Her qualm with personal time was focused on the blogging/SDN, no?

Either way I am not sure this should be isolated to physician spouses as it happens in most careers. If couples marry for the wrong reasons or are not fully supportive of one another an external source of emotional or even physical support can seem like an 'escape' leading to neglect at home.

Success can often be threatening to those who feel they are being "left behind" and egos have been known ruin relationships. Get married for the right reasons, support each other and work through things instead of walking away when it gets tough. This is all coming from someone who has never been married so take it as you will.
 
My wife and I have been friends and lovers for 28 years. She knows me pretty well. When I announced a few years ago that I wanted to go back to school to study medicine, she said "Sure, I've always known you wanted to go back for science, but does it have to be medicine?" She and I both had a pretty good idea how hard it would be and, no, she was not on board. But she has hung with me so far. She worked at it and so did I. Simple to say, but hard to do. Here is what has worked for us:

- Start doing medicine. As suggested earlier, volunteer and study and prove to yourself that you have a passion for it. Or not.
- Show your passion. Share your stories and let your enthusiasm show. Let your SO know you love it.
- Do all the things for each other that made you fall in love. Plan dates. Be interested in each others activities. Make out.
- Schedule your life to allow time to be there for her/him. This usually means carving out a part of the day to study/work that normal people don't use. I get up at 4 so that I don't have to study in the evening - that's for the wife and kids. Maybe other things you love have to go by the wayside (for me - no TV, a lot less rock climbing, no more coaching soccer)
- Talk to friends. And getting professional advice from a counselor can be invaluable.

This worked for us. With school itself on the near horizon, I am more confident than ever we will not only weather its passage, but thrive. Time will tell.

Best wishes for you stc and all.
 
I'm married to a non-traditional resident and I wrestle with supporting my spouse in his nacent career vs. my own needs/goals/expectations frequently. As we have children and have always considered ourselves equal partners, it has been hard for me to take on the lion's share of childcare, household management, homework, etc. I watched my mother do it and thought, "no way, my spouse and I will be equal partners" and yet here we are, and it's (almost) all on me even though I also work full time. I want my spouse to be able to do what he loves and is good at, but -- frankly -- the householding has to come out of someone's hide and there is no getting around that. With one spouse working 80-100 hours/week, there is not a lot of flexibility about who will take out the garbage, negotiate with the roofer and make dentist appointments.

I do it with as much grace and consciousness of my great good luck in life (compared to others in almost every other country in the world) as I can. But it is a struggle at times, as it will be for most spouses who imagined more time with the person they married. I'd love a few leisurely nights together sitting in the backyard with a glass of wine watching the fireflies, or a few shared projects, or the two of us watching our daughter's softball games. Those are real losses to me (and him) and it's probably better to acknowledge those losses going in rather than being surprised by them later.

I think the posters here have, by and large, seemed very aware of the complications of marriage and work and stayed away from the defensiveness that one so frequently reads on the regular non-nontrad threads (if he/she can't support you 100%, get a divorce now to save time).

It's a tough row to hoe, I have to say. Good luck to you all.
 
Even when you think you have a solid relationship, the road to becoming a physician will challenge even the best ones. It can be incredibly hard on the spouse and yes, this can be said for other careers too as mentioned by another poster. I've learned that sometimes just verbalizing how much you appreciate what your spouse is doing and acknowledging their sacrifice goes a long way. I need to do A LOT more of this for my spouse.

This posting below came from a user on the Slowtwitch forum for triathlons. I think it sums up what many of our spouses may feel...just substitute physician for ironman, tuition for gear, etc.

Letter from an Ironman widow Quote | Reply
"Hi, there. Remember me? I'm the one you promised oh-so-many-year-ago to love and cherish for all eternity. And I don't remember there being an exception made for Ironman years. Maybe you whispered that part.

I know that crossing that finish line takes an incredible amount of hard work. And I admire that effort; you know I do. You have inspired me with your ability to come home from work and do a five-hour ride on the trainer because it's getting too dark to do it on the road. I am in awe of your discipline. I could use some of that myself.

But do you really think about what your family is sacrificing to get you to that finish line? And I mean, Really. Think. About. It. We've given up any free time with you; when you are around, you're so beat from working out that you're really not there anyway. A family trip to Europe would have been lovely this year. But that money got spent on gear and coaching and massages and physical therapy and Gatorade. (Remind me to buy their stock next year.) That's ok. I've been able to use the time we would have spent on vacation to do all the chores that need doing around here, because you're too busy to help out anymore. Working, cooking a nutritious dinner every night, keeping the house clean and in good repair, paying the bills, showing up at all the kids' activities, and hiring babysitters so I can at least go out with the girls keeps me busy. And it keeps my mind off the fact that an Ironman is too busy and tired for s*x.

I know I sound mad. Really, I try not to be. But I feel very taken for granted. Maybe you could think about showing some love for what your Ironman widow puts up with. Maybe your buddies here will have some suggestions. Or maybe they could use some ideas themselves. (You know, I might just be YOUR IronWidow.) Or maybe they'll just feel sorry for you and be glad I'm not their spouse. If so, I hope they can refrain from mentioning it; I'm having a bad day, and I don't think I could take it. Besides, I think I probably speak for most Ironman widows when I say that I AM proud of my Ironman; you are a rare and special kind of person. But you know, so am I. So am I."
 
Even when you think you have a solid relationship, the road to becoming a physician will challenge even the best ones. It can be incredibly hard on the spouse and yes, this can be said for other careers too as mentioned by another poster. I've learned that sometimes just verbalizing how much you appreciate what your spouse is doing and acknowledging their sacrifice goes a long way. I need to do A LOT more of this for my spouse.

This posting below came from a user on the Slowtwitch forum for triathlons. I think it sums up what many of our spouses may feel...just substitute physician for ironman, tuition for gear, etc.

Letter from an Ironman widow Quote | Reply
"Hi, there. Remember me? I'm the one you promised oh-so-many-year-ago to love and cherish for all eternity. And I don't remember there being an exception made for Ironman years. Maybe you whispered that part.

I know that crossing that finish line takes an incredible amount of hard work. And I admire that effort; you know I do. You have inspired me with your ability to come home from work and do a five-hour ride on the trainer because it's getting too dark to do it on the road. I am in awe of your discipline. I could use some of that myself.

But do you really think about what your family is sacrificing to get you to that finish line? And I mean, Really. Think. About. It. We've given up any free time with you; when you are around, you're so beat from working out that you're really not there anyway. A family trip to Europe would have been lovely this year. But that money got spent on gear and coaching and massages and physical therapy and Gatorade. (Remind me to buy their stock next year.) That's ok. I've been able to use the time we would have spent on vacation to do all the chores that need doing around here, because you're too busy to help out anymore. Working, cooking a nutritious dinner every night, keeping the house clean and in good repair, paying the bills, showing up at all the kids' activities, and hiring babysitters so I can at least go out with the girls keeps me busy. And it keeps my mind off the fact that an Ironman is too busy and tired for s*x.

I know I sound mad. Really, I try not to be. But I feel very taken for granted. Maybe you could think about showing some love for what your Ironman widow puts up with. Maybe your buddies here will have some suggestions. Or maybe they could use some ideas themselves. (You know, I might just be YOUR IronWidow.) Or maybe they'll just feel sorry for you and be glad I'm not their spouse. If so, I hope they can refrain from mentioning it; I'm having a bad day, and I don't think I could take it. Besides, I think I probably speak for most Ironman widows when I say that I AM proud of my Ironman; you are a rare and special kind of person. But you know, so am I. So am I."

Great post.

This is why I'm not trying to have children. There's just only so much time. And only so many ways to slice it.

Thing is. This guy is a fierce competitor. Doesn't know how to do otherwise. But he's got a full-time job and a family. Bad news.

I know people might think I'm being negative towards parenting. But if you're about to take the med school plunge. Take a hard look at the post above. Because there's something you're not aware of yet. If you're a pure competitor. And are destined to gun for sub-specialty surgery or something very competitive. There will be casualties.

The parents that can make it all good on the homefront. Have to take hits on the academic front. And those that don't reconcile well to that. Get stomach cancer, from the bitterness it brings. Or just sacrafice their family.

Imagine everyone of the smartest kids in your premed classes having to re-stratify all over again. The costs to be the boss of your med school class are going to take a heavy toll.

It's so much easier for a couple, where the spouse has their own career and independence.
 
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