UNSW Advice?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

petrelli

New Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Could I ask for some advice please about the UNSW? I've been admitted to the UNSW's med school. I'm American but am not sure whether I want to end up practicing in the US or Australia.

My question is, basically, do you think I should accept the offer from the UNSW? Of course I know no one can make the decision but myself, but I'd still love to receive some advice or thoughts as I'm sure it'd help me to make a more informed decision.

I really like the UNSW because it's a strong med school, and seems to be in a good part of Sydney (near Coogee!). But the problem is that it's 6 yrs long. This means 2 more years than normal, plus with younger fellow students (I'm a bit older, having already finsihed a degree), and more money to borrow. So, I was thinking, I could instead try to reapply to the USyd's med school next year (I didn't get in, and for personal reasons, I don't want to live in another Australian city). But then again, what if I don't get in next year? Or I could try to do my prereqs in the US, and apply to a US school, which would be about 2 years plus 4 years med school, so equal to UNSW, but the problem is that I'm still not guaranteed to get in after doing my prereqs whereas I already have a spot at the UNSW.

Any thoughts or advice or anything else? Thanks so much!

Members don't see this ad.
 
Yes most of your classmates will be school leavers who are 18 or even 17.

But even in USyd, where the average age of the 1st years are said to be 24, there are people in their 30s and 40s who are doing welll.

I know that the 6-year curriculum includes 1 year of research in between the pre-clinical and clinical years, so maybe you should find out if you can be given exemption (have you done any research?)

With the new interview system at USyd, things have become a little less predictable, so I'd say go for UNSW. I know a guy (a local) who only got into USyd after his 3rd interview.

A little about medicine in Aus vs US:

A medical career in Aus is much more compatible with having a life and maintaining your sanity. Aus med students graduate to become interns who rotate through medical/surgical specialties, and usually do not enter any particular streams until their PGY-3 (3rd year after med school).

Training is longer (e.g. minimum 8 years to become a surgeon after med school, but usually around 10), but it pays a lot better (~80k for advanced trainees), and you do not work 80 hrs/wk like they do in the US.
 
A little about medicine in Aus vs US:

A medical career in Aus is much more compatible with having a life and maintaining your sanity. Aus med students graduate to become interns who rotate through medical/surgical specialties, and usually do not enter any particular streams until their PGY-3 (3rd year after med school).

Training is longer (e.g. minimum 8 years to become a surgeon after med school, but usually around 10), but it pays a lot better (~80k for advanced trainees), and you do not work 80 hrs/wk like they do in the US.

Not to be facetious but there is more uncertainty with training programs in Australia than in Canada and the US.
i.e. failure rate for psych exams is ~50%
amount of applicants for ortho positions = much much higher than training spots available so many people spend many years doing unaccredited work while waiting to get into a position.

So in that sense, it can be stressful.
The system is different and the debt load of students are different.

Re: the money, yes , you do make more cash as a trainee however, you do not hit your potential income as early.

i.e.

US intern 1st year 40k, 2nd year 40k 3rd year 40k attending = 160k (based on average salaries.

Australian
1st year 40-65k aus (with overtime), 2, 3rd year and if you're lucking to get onto a registrar scheme then 60 then 70 then 80 etc till you hit a base of 91,418 as a 5th year registrar (based on 2004 rates)....

The tax in the US is also considerably lower as is the cost of living.

I hope I don't need to demonstrate the math to show that the you come out on top in 10 years in the US over an Australian doctor. Lifestyle wise is debatable - you get more time off and overtime in Australia in your training years but you have to move around a lot more around the state applying for jobs... there are hidden trade-offs.

Don't get me wrong- Australia is a great place to live and work as a doctor but the financial situation is much trickier.
Especially if you have over $200,000 of loans and pay over $12,000 a year just to make interest payments.

The 80 hrs/week is the limit in the US while you are training- it doesn't apply when you are an attending. It is also program specific. Surg and IM would have hours like that. I do not think Derm does - you can check the programs if you do some more research yourself.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I agree with driedcaribou for the most part. There is much more certainty involved with NA programs. For example, once you get on to say Radiology you know that 90% will make pass their end exams. You probably work your ass off but there is a structured program with lots of feedback.

Radiology is Australia would have a primary exam that most people would do well on and then a final second exam in which the failure rate would be ridiculously high like 50%. To me that says that the training programs are inadequate. The other alternative is that it is part of the culture in Aus med. Sort of like in the US with the mentality that working 80hours a week is what you have to do. Both are probably archaic ideas. There is no need to make someones life miserable for 5 years with ridiculous work hours in order to "forge" a better doctor, just as it is stupid to have a high failure rate at the end of a program.

I used radiology as an example but you will find similar scenarios in alot of other specialties. I can only speak for Canada but alot of residents are doing 80+/week with all the call. So in theory Aus is less stressful during the program but I would hate to train for 8 years or so only to fail a final exit exam and have to re-write it.
 
BTW, about the money thing. I mentioned this to someone in Canada and he said you are talking about penuts. Saying that you make 20k more or 40k doesn't make much of a difference if your finaly salary is over 200k. So if you finish 3 or more years earlier the extra pay during training is insignificant in the long run.

So really if you stay in Aus you have to realize it is a longer haul and you will have to deal with some silly evaluation processes. If you do it in NA then it will be more stressful during the program but you should be prepared for the final exam. Not sure which one is ideal really...
 
BTW, about the money thing. I mentioned this to someone in Canada and he said you are talking about penuts. Saying that you make 20k more or 40k doesn't make much of a difference if your finaly salary is over 200k. So if you finish 3 or more years earlier the extra pay during training is insignificant in the long run.

So really if you stay in Aus you have to realize it is a longer haul and you will have to deal with some silly evaluation processes. If you do it in NA then it will be more stressful during the program but you should be prepared for the final exam. Not sure which one is ideal really...

No, I suppose 20k or 40k won't make much of a 'difference' when you're over 200k. But the majority of people in medicine don't have financial backgrounds and money in the bank is just that....

But the dollar amounts I'm talking about are during your residency years.
An Australian who has under 50k of debt for Uni leads a better life in their system than a US student who has 250k of debt in the US system.

I'm not talking about 20 or 40k diff. I'm talking at least 70k difference in the 3-5 year time span. I'm not talking about the salary you make as a resident in Australia compared to someone who would be a consultant/attending in the same amount of time.

To do ED in Australia takes 8 years. Within 3 years of graduation in the US you can pull 180k based on websites that give average earning ranges from 180-250k. US tax is what? Around 30% for that income bracket? Where as in Australia, it's like 45 cents to the dollar.

I suppose you could go into a whole debate about the crime rate being lower in Australia etc. but I'm not going to go into that...

There isn't a 'better' or 'worse' way.
They're just different and they are for their own systems.

It's just difficult when you have to jump systems.

Some surgeons in Australia also work their ass off so it's hard to just automatically say it's 'easier' in Australia... but as a generalization, it's not as 'rushed' here. The rush is for a reason though. Australia is a small country population wise. Handling 20 million is not the same as handling 300 million. There is a reason why many consultants in the Australia go to the US for fellowships. That being said, health care in Australia is excellent - the public system is superb despite what the locals think.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. I just disagreed with some comments which were made earlier.

My main point is that things are much more complicated than they seem.

Don't make a decision based on money or you will be sorely disappointed no matter where you go for medicine.

If money is your only thing, do yourself a favour (and your future patients) by not going into medicine.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses! They are helpful. And I'll have to check on that 1 year exemption thing, thanks Ezekiel20.

As for the money, since UNSW is a 6 yr course, assuming I don't get any exemption, I'd probably be looking at closer to $300,000 in debt if not more! I'm not in medicine for the money, otheriwse I'd probably go into law or business! :), but I do want to be realistic and see what payments would look like after I graduate. Like many med students that driedcaribou pointed out, I'm far from a financial wiz, but if we just assume a 5% interest off $300,000 (not sure if this is how it's done so I'm making a huge assumption), that's $15,000 per year I have to pay back!

Is there a website anyone might please recommend where I could go and do loan calculations on money borrowed to figure out, roughly, what payments might look like after I graduate?

If it really is $15,000 per year, I seriously will have to reconsider doing med in Australia. Thanks again.
 
You said you had a degree already, right? Well then I am curious to know why it is you're going to UNSW to do a 6 year program when you can do a 4 year program as a Graduate-entry student??? From a money standpoint, this seems much more logical!

Also, if you can re-apply next year for the grad-level entry, I would look at a city like Adelaide (Flinders), Gold coast (Griffith) or Brisbane (UQ) as these cities are cheaper to live in and tuition isn't quite as high as Sydney or Melb.

Anyways, just a thought!
 
As for the money, since UNSW is a 6 yr course, assuming I don't get any exemption, I'd probably be looking at closer to $300,000 in debt if not more! I'm not in medicine for the money, otheriwse I'd probably go into law or business! :), but I do want to be realistic and see what payments would look like after I graduate. Like many med students that driedcaribou pointed out, I'm far from a financial wiz, but if we just assume a 5% interest off $300,000 (not sure if this is how it's done so I'm making a huge assumption), that's $15,000 per year I have to pay back!
.

You'll be lucky to pay only 5% per annum.

Law isn't the way to 'make money' either nor is business a surefire way.

Money comes from hardwork or luck and enjoying your job and having a good life is priceless.
 
Not to be facetious but there is more uncertainty with training programs in Australia than in Canada and the US.
i.e. failure rate for psych exams is ~50%
amount of applicants for ortho positions = much much higher than training spots available so many people spend many years doing unaccredited work while waiting to get into a position.

So in that sense, it can be stressful.
The system is different and the debt load of students are different.

Re: the money, yes , you do make more cash as a trainee however, you do not hit your potential income as early.

i.e.

US intern 1st year 40k, 2nd year 40k 3rd year 40k attending = 160k (based on average salaries.

Australian
1st year 40-65k aus (with overtime), 2, 3rd year and if you're lucking to get onto a registrar scheme then 60 then 70 then 80 etc till you hit a base of 91,418 as a 5th year registrar (based on 2004 rates)....

The tax in the US is also considerably lower as is the cost of living.

I hope I don't need to demonstrate the math to show that the you come out on top in 10 years in the US over an Australian doctor. Lifestyle wise is debatable - you get more time off and overtime in Australia in your training years but you have to move around a lot more around the state applying for jobs... there are hidden trade-offs.

Don't get me wrong- Australia is a great place to live and work as a doctor but the financial situation is much trickier.
Especially if you have over $200,000 of loans and pay over $12,000 a year just to make interest payments.

The 80 hrs/week is the limit in the US while you are training- it doesn't apply when you are an attending. It is also program specific. Surg and IM would have hours like that. I do not think Derm does - you can check the programs if you do some more research yourself.

It also depends on the training program you want to do for example....If you want to do something very competitive, although there is a chance you might get stuck in Limbo in Australia, you might not even be able to get into that program in the US.

If you want do something less competitive like Family Medicine, I don't really think it matters where you do your training, since most people usually end up getting a spot in those programs + the pass rate is fairly high.

I think you should weigh all of this up before you start your path.

The only other piece of advice I could give you is that if you go down the path of Ireland, or the Caribbean there is little other alternatives, you simply have to go the US and that's about it. A lot can change in 6 years, and at least by going to Australia you have to option to stay if you chose to do so.
 
It also depends on the training program you want to do for example....If you want to do something very competitive, although there is a chance you might get stuck in Limbo in Australia, you might not even be able to get into that program in the US.

If you want do something less competitive like Family Medicine, I don't really think it matters where you do your training, since most people usually end up getting a spot in those programs + the pass rate is fairly high.

Very true.
The Australian system also gives you more time to decide what you want to specialize in and the point that you will likely be able to stay is a good one as well though the tide changes every 5 years....
 
Very true.
The Australian system also gives you more time to decide what you want to specialize in and the point that you will likely be able to stay is a good one as well though the tide changes every 5 years....

Yep, that is a definant reality. There are so many new medical schools and increased spots in existing medical schools that there will be a bottle neck effect in the not too distant future. It is one of the things that is making me consider going back home even though I am 1 year ahead of it in my state.

I would like to stay in Australia but would also hate to have worked as a house officer for 3+ years attempting to get on a program because of competition increases.

I think if you are considering a place to study medicine you should ideally pick a place that you may want to live. That way you have the choice of going home or staying local where you trained. Factors like med student tsunami just makes the decision a little more complicated...
 
Hi Petrelli, i'm a 4th yr at UNSW...just saw your post...if you want to find out more about the medical course and life as a medical student at UNSW pls email me...

Cheers!
 
Top