DREDAY

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Hey guys so I am very very indicisive about where to go to school. I know both schools are great schools but no one can overlook Loma Linda's #1 clinical ranking or UOP's 3 year program. In addition I have done alot of research to quantify the costs of each school.

Loma Linda Tuition - 173,607

UOP Tuition - 210,438 - 30,000 schollarship = 180,000


UOP estimates that my living costs in san francisco however will be about another 68,000 which makes my UOP debt go up to 248,000k. At Loma Linda, however real estate is relatively cheap and my parents said that they will be willing to put a down payment on a condo. This will allow me to make payments on the condo with the living loans i receive and therefore gain equity in the long run. So Loma linda living costs should only take into account food, transportation, electricity and such. which should account for about 20,000 during the 4 years. This would bring LOMA linda price to about 193,000.

Loma linda is also very close to my parent's place which would make it alot easier would i need anything. Also because I have a summer job as a lifeguard which I make 15 dollars an hour, I will be able to work this summer and the next summer if I attend Loma Linda. Each summer which runs from June to september I work full time and earn about 5,000 dollars. SO that would be an additional 10,000 dollars that I can take off the cost of LOMA LINDA. This means that loma linda will only cost me 183,000. Now if I subtract UOP's cost minus Loma linda's cost 248000-183000, it comes out to a 65,000 dollar difference.

Ok so UOP claims most of their student's interest rate to be 6% and according to a formula they gave us, at that rate, our loans will double in 12 years. Assuming it will take me about 12 years to repay my loans, that 65,000 dollar difference will become 130,000 thousand. So in essence it will cost me 130,000 thousand dollars or more to attend UOP. Which ofcourse I can make up during the 1 year that I will have after graudating earlier. However, 12 years to repay a 250,000 loan is very optimistic, so I am thinking it might take me longer, and the difference will be a little bit more than 130,000. Plus if I attend Loma Linda, I will have a good investment in a condo by the time I graduate.


So can anyone help me out and shine some light :) on my decision, thank you.
 

joobs

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Uop Of Course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

juggamynugga

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ya i answered you in the other part of the forums. UOP by far, unless of course you are a boring, nerd who has a weird fetish for teeth and will be sitting in lab allnight dreaming about cavities. If that's the case then please please please go to loma linda :D
 

ecrdoubles15

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if you want to go to the best of those two, then loma linda. if you want to finish in 3 years then UOP. you are right you cant overlook loma's #1 clinical ranking. and it seems like with your living and family situation you would be better off there. so far that is where i am going. laters
 

Jess_SB

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Since I was one of the first people to post LLU's #1 clinical ranking, I think I need to clarify it. It was "clinical productivity", which I personally don't think translates into actual, individual clinical skills. (this "secret" ranking is done by the ADA, and was told to me by the Dean at UCSF) I personally believe that Pacific has a superior clinical training program, one of the reasons I will be attending in June.

I don't understand why you aren't including any housing expenses for LLU - are your parents paying for your mortgage too? If so, that's a great deal! I also don't think it's very realistic to count on working the summer after D1. It seems more likely that you would do something dental-related.

Being close to family is important though (it's one of the reasons I'm going to Pacific), and I think with all of your financial concerns, LLU would be better for you. In fact, it seems to me from your post that you have already choosen LLU.


Personally, I'm choosing Pacific for many reasons, not only financial.

Good Luck with your decision,
Jessica
 
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DREDAY

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Jess,

The reason why I wont include living (rent) at loma linda is because I will be paying the mortgage with the loans I get. If i go to UOP i will be paying rent. If i pay the mortgage, when I sell the condo, I will get money back and possibly even more money out of the appreciation of the condo.

dre
 

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Hard decision my friend, both are equally good in my mind. If I were you, and if i wanted to be a GP, I would pick UOP because you get out earlier and everyone seems happy there. I was surprised how proud UOP people are of their school.
 

egpndoc

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DREDAY said:
Jess,

The reason why I wont include living (rent) at loma linda is because I will be paying the mortgage with the loans I get. If i go to UOP i will be paying rent. If i pay the mortgage, when I sell the condo, I will get money back and possibly even more money out of the appreciation of the condo.

dre
Go to UoP, you will be my classmate and you will be done a year earlier. that means less studying, and more time to make money. Loma Linda is in an old person community too, so if you like the laid back life then go there, if youre like me and love the big city then go to UoP. Ultimately the decision is yours, but I love UoP. Plus, UoP has that humanistic thing where instructors wont treat you like garbage like at the other schools. Good luck
 

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egpndoc said:
Go to UoP, you will be my classmate and you will be done a year earlier. that means less studying, and more time to make money. Loma Linda is in an old person community too, so if you like the laid back life then go there, if youre like me and love the big city then go to UoP. Ultimately the decision is yours, but I love UoP. Plus, UoP has that humanistic thing where instructors wont treat you like garbage like at the other schools. Good luck
Dare anyone treat us future drs. like garbage. :eek:
 

bananadds

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DREDAY said:
Hey guys so I am very very indicisive about where to go to school. I know both schools are great schools but no one can overlook Loma Linda's #1 clinical ranking or UOP's 3 year program. In addition I have done alot of research to quantify the costs of each school.

Loma Linda Tuition - 173,607

UOP Tuition - 210,438 - 30,000 schollarship = 180,000


UOP estimates that my living costs in san francisco however will be about another 68,000 which makes my UOP debt go up to 248,000k. At Loma Linda, however real estate is relatively cheap and my parents said that they will be willing to put a down payment on a condo. This will allow me to make payments on the condo with the living loans i receive and therefore gain equity in the long run. So Loma linda living costs should only take into account food, transportation, electricity and such. which should account for about 20,000 during the 4 years. This would bring LOMA linda price to about 193,000.

Loma linda is also very close to my parent's place which would make it alot easier would i need anything. Also because I have a summer job as a lifeguard which I make 15 dollars an hour, I will be able to work this summer and the next summer if I attend Loma Linda. Each summer which runs from June to september I work full time and earn about 5,000 dollars. SO that would be an additional 10,000 dollars that I can take off the cost of LOMA LINDA. This means that loma linda will only cost me 183,000. Now if I subtract UOP's cost minus Loma linda's cost 248000-183000, it comes out to a 65,000 dollar difference.

Ok so UOP claims most of their student's interest rate to be 6% and according to a formula they gave us, at that rate, our loans will double in 12 years. Assuming it will take me about 12 years to repay my loans, that 65,000 dollar difference will become 130,000 thousand. So in essence it will cost me 130,000 thousand dollars or more to attend UOP. Which ofcourse I can make up during the 1 year that I will have after graudating earlier. However, 12 years to repay a 250,000 loan is very optimistic, so I am thinking it might take me longer, and the difference will be a little bit more than 130,000. Plus if I attend Loma Linda, I will have a good investment in a condo by the time I graduate.


So can anyone help me out and shine some light :) on my decision, thank you.
Of Course UOP... :thumbup:
 

HuyetKiem

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DREDAY said:
please explain why ?

gosh... I don't mind paying extra 200K to get out this hell-on-earth dental school life a year earlier:mad: :mad: . What was I thinking ? Why didn't I apply to UoP 2 yrs ago ?
 

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Tough decision. Loma Linda has a great clinical program, and I've been told that they have a great implant program (which many gen dents are starting to do now). You seem to have the oney issue down, so I would advice picking the place you see yourself most happy attending.
 

Profchaos

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nothen2do said:
Tough decision. Loma Linda has a great clinical program, and I've been told that they have a great implant program (which many gen dents are starting to do now). You seem to have the oney issue down, so I would advice picking the place you see yourself most happy attending.
True. Loma Linda's implant program is strong and world famous. In fact they are the first one to have a separate 3 year implantology program where you learn implant thothroughly, but 3 years seems a bit long for just doing implants, unless you want to limit your office for only implant. The dentist I work for in Las Vegas has two institutes only for implant. And make gross of 2.5 millon with his wife.
 

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If you are correct regarding the cost of attendance it is no longer a choice. LLU is the only option. The fact is not only will you be paying a mortgage and saving money, the property itself will go up in value. If I were you I would do anything I could to reduce educational costs. 65K is a ton of money. Remember you have to pay back these loans. You will not knock 65K off of you student loan debt in one year...no way. As far as having 1 extra year in your prime during which you can make 200 G's thats relative to the length of your career. Finally, LLU has a clinical program that is just as good as UOP. Like UOP, I am fairly certain LLU does not have specialty programs. Thus you will have atleast 6 more months of clinical training at LLU.
 
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DREDAY

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J2AZ said:
If you are correct regarding the cost of attendance it is no longer a choice. LLU is the only option. The fact is not only will you be paying a mortgage and saving money, the property itself will go up in value. If I were you I would do anything I could to reduce educational costs. 65K is a ton of money. Remember you have to pay back these loans. You will not knock 65K off of you student loan debt in one year...no way. As far as having 1 extra year in your prime during which you can make 200 G's thats relative to the length of your career. Finally, LLU has a clinical program that is just as good as UOP. Like UOP, I am fairly certain LLU does not have specialty programs. Thus you will have atleast 6 more months of clinical training at LLU.

actually loma linda has specialty programs for every specialty.
 

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It seems people are pretty ignorant on how good Loma Linda really is. I also find it interesting that many of you who haven't even attended dental school are claiming UOP prepares you clinically better than LLU. Fact is, LLU has the best clinical program around. They place students in specialties. It's a great place to live at a lower price than SF. You get an extra year of clinical training at LLU. Honestly, I'm not too sure if 3 years is enough to really prepare you. I have heard from various dentists that they avoid new UOP graduates because they don't have enough experience.
 

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It seems people are pretty ignorant on how good Loma Linda really is. I also find it interesting that many of you who haven't even attended dental school are claiming UOP prepares you clinically better than LLU. Fact is, LLU has the best clinical program around. They place students in specialties. It's a great place to live at a lower price than SF. You get an extra year of clinical training at LLU. Honestly, I'm not too sure if 3 years is enough to really prepare you. I have heard from various dentists that they avoid new UOP graduates because they don't have enough experience.
Loma Linda is an EXCELLENT school! Very underrated, great people and solid curriculum. Nice local and great reputation in California. My unlce was a managind dentist after one year out of LLU and his bosses cited his dental alma mater as the prime reason.
 

ecrdoubles15

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Kiluminati said:
It seems people are pretty ignorant on how good Loma Linda really is. I also find it interesting that many of you who haven't even attended dental school are claiming UOP prepares you clinically better than LLU. Fact is, LLU has the best clinical program around. They place students in specialties. It's a great place to live at a lower price than SF. You get an extra year of clinical training at LLU. Honestly, I'm not too sure if 3 years is enough to really prepare you. I have heard from various dentists that they avoid new UOP graduates because they don't have enough experience.
dont worry i agree. i just dont bother to add my two cents anymore because some people are just too ignorant. but im glad you know the facts as well. laters
 

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i had no idea about the clinical superiority at LLU. The dentist i shadowed graduated from LLU and never once told me about this. He actually said UOP is a really good school; and told me his younger brother graduated from there recently and is doing really well
 

ecrdoubles15

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dWiz said:
i had no idea about the clinical superiority at LLU. The dentist i shadowed graduated from LLU and never once told me about this. He actually said UOP is a really good school; and told me his younger brother graduated from there recently and is doing really well
its an honest mistake. no one seems to know. it was just finally revealed when the UCSF dean told us. as for the dentist you shadowed, he could have went when it wasnt as good. Dental School can get better or worse each year. laters
 

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honestly, everyone says that UOP has a really good clinical program, and im sure it does. Also its a 3 year program, which is excellent to get out quick. But from most of my friends that goes to UOP dental, a lot of them are feeling that 3 years is just not enough training, and have applied to do the AEGD programs at either stockton or union city to get some more practice in. My question is to any current UOP dental students, how many of your classmates are considering going into a one year program like AEGD, to get further training? And would this throw off that extra year of income of 180,000 over the carrer, since now, it is kinda like a 3 yr program and an additional 1 yr of AEGD work.
 

JavadiCavity

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This is hilarious. Should UOP students go to school for an extra year and get 3 years of clinical experience?

Every school in the country gives their students 2 full years of clinical experience--even UOP. UOP condenses the first two years of didactic study into 12 months. So, if UOP students are getting shorted on any part of their experience it's the book work not the clinical work. And since they have great pass rates on Part I of the boards, it seems that they must not be getting shorted very much, if at all.

Arizona does a similar thing where all of the 95% of the didactic work is done during the first year, the second year is pre-clinical, and the third and fourth are clinical.

Comments like "UOP students don't have enough time" are ignorant. If the ADA had a problem with their skills, they'd force the school to go to 4 years. If dentists didn't like UOP students, they wouldn't hire them, which would discourage people from attending, which would cause UOP to reevaluate their program.

This thread about "comparing schools" based on heresay is ridiculous at best and helps no one make a better decision. It's about as useful as a thread discussing who's undergrad is better at preparing them for dental school--useless.
 

RicDDS

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DREDAY said:
Hey guys so I am very very indicisive about where to go to school. I know both schools are great schools but no one can overlook Loma Linda's #1 clinical ranking or UOP's 3 year program. In addition I have done alot of research to quantify the costs of each school.

Loma Linda Tuition - 173,607

UOP Tuition - 210,438 - 30,000 schollarship = 180,000


UOP estimates that my living costs in san francisco however will be about another 68,000 which makes my UOP debt go up to 248,000k. At Loma Linda, however real estate is relatively cheap and my parents said that they will be willing to put a down payment on a condo. This will allow me to make payments on the condo with the living loans i receive and therefore gain equity in the long run. So Loma linda living costs should only take into account food, transportation, electricity and such. which should account for about 20,000 during the 4 years. This would bring LOMA linda price to about 193,000.

Loma linda is also very close to my parent's place which would make it alot easier would i need anything. Also because I have a summer job as a lifeguard which I make 15 dollars an hour, I will be able to work this summer and the next summer if I attend Loma Linda. Each summer which runs from June to september I work full time and earn about 5,000 dollars. SO that would be an additional 10,000 dollars that I can take off the cost of LOMA LINDA. This means that loma linda will only cost me 183,000. Now if I subtract UOP's cost minus Loma linda's cost 248000-183000, it comes out to a 65,000 dollar difference.

Ok so UOP claims most of their student's interest rate to be 6% and according to a formula they gave us, at that rate, our loans will double in 12 years. Assuming it will take me about 12 years to repay my loans, that 65,000 dollar difference will become 130,000 thousand. So in essence it will cost me 130,000 thousand dollars or more to attend UOP. Which ofcourse I can make up during the 1 year that I will have after graudating earlier. However, 12 years to repay a 250,000 loan is very optimistic, so I am thinking it might take me longer, and the difference will be a little bit more than 130,000. Plus if I attend Loma Linda, I will have a good investment in a condo by the time I graduate.


So can anyone help me out and shine some light :) on my decision, thank you.
go to UOP since u'll be done in 3 years. u said ur parents live near LLU... so if this is the case, then u already know what living there is like. my wife went to undergrad and grad there and she commuted 50 minutes each way so that she didn't have to live in LL.
 

luder98

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If you are not desperate to get out a year earlier, LLU is the better for you. Sounds like you are still young. So one year may not mean too much to you. You'll be amazed how much you will make from that condo after four years. Plus, if you're single and don't mind renting a portion of it out, you'll prob get free ride (almost) through the years. You then can prob use the profit to pay off or most of your loan.
 

juggamynugga

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UOP doesn't have less clinical time than the 4 year programs, you don't get summers off to make up for it. I really don't know how any of you would want to go to LLU but if you are have fun.
 

ecrdoubles15

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everyone has their own things they are looking for in Dental School. so let it go. laters
 

J2AZ

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juggamynugga said:
and javadicavity is right, if you don't know what you are talking about STFU
I am amazed...stunned more like it. I is crazy how defensive and rude some people get when UOP's curriculum is brought into question. All hail UOP. Dont get me wrong, UOP is a great school. If I was accepted I would consider going there. However, before doing so I would open up a thread like this and ask for opinions (pros and cons) of my top two choices. Dont take posts so seriously man. It is understood that some stuff you get is fact and some is BS. Chill. Some serious issues have been raised in this thread and if you guys are UOP backers than take it as an chance to educate people not bash them for voicing "hearsay." After all hearsay is only dangerous if someone passes it off as their OWN. If I say UOP students are not clinically prepared I will tell you where I live and you can come and shoot me. On the other hand if I state like dentalnitemares "from most of my friends that goes to UOP dental, a lot of them are feeling that 3 years is just not enough training, and have applied to do the AEGD programs at either stockton or union city to get some more practice in." That is valid and worthy of discusion. To say these comments are ignorant is laughable. Hell, these comments are from current students. This I KNOW for a FACT: Many dentist I have spoke to about UOP (5+) wonder if three years is enough time to learn dentistry. True you get 2 years of clinical but you sacrafice when building the didactic foundation. There is no way to fit 2 years of didactic and sim lab into 15 months. And last time I checked (but correct me if I am wrong) but most dental schools only give their students the first summer off. After that you are in the clinic or classroom. Saying UOP makes up for time by going year round with no summer breaks does not really account for anything. Finally, to be offended when someone mentions that UOP grads feel unprepared after graduation illustrates ignorance. I would venture that 90% dentists feel unprepared after graduation (even UOP grads). Those that feel confident in their skills just dont know how bad they truly are. In no way does UOP create SUPER dentists. LLU is just as good as are many other schools. All you UOP guys and gals, please dont whine, cry, and lash out because I stat what I believe and what I have been told by very reliable sources. Oh, and a side note. I know four UOP graduates. One is a succesful endodontist. Great guy. Two are GP's and doing fine but wishing they could afford the car their boss is driving but cant b/c of student loans. The fourth runs a very successful chop shop that prays on the uneducated public and sells procedures that are not needed. This is FACT b/c I have seen what he does. EVery school, even UOP, graduates winners and loosers it is your choice which of the two you want to be.
 

RicDDS

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USUaggie said:
Why didn't she want to live there? (For those of us who don't know the area)

sorry, that was kind of an unfair statement i guess. let me tell u some +/-es.

well, generally, being in southern california, we have been spoiled with such great weather. loma linda is located in san bernardino county. in the summers, it is quite horrible. i've even witnessed fires start on the hillside out of the blue becoz of the intense heat. basically, the weather can be dreadful.. but this may not be bad compared to winters in the northeast i suppose. housing is ridiculous (but where in so. cal is it not??). u can probably find a 2 bedroom/1bath home that is like 900 sq.feet for $250K. crazy... u'd think u were in NY. anyway, it is kinda in the middle of nowhere.. fortunately, "somewhere" (i.e. the mountains, river, etc.) is only ~1 hr away in each direction.

loma linda is an older, adventist community. you will find that many stores, including supermarkets close from sundown friday to saturday evening in honor of the sabbath. however, i will say that there have been many new developments in the area in the past year (there is in fact a Yardhouse, a brewery and several new hip new restaurants not 1 mile from the school). one thing u will notice is that people here live/work on a much slower pace. they are friendly and welcoming.

re: the school. 1) no meat, caffiene, "stimulants" (i.e. mustard, etc.) on campus.. but then again u can bring ur own steak and coffee for lunch. 2) parking was the pits... at least, it was for my wife during her undergrad and grad. maybe dentistry will be different tho. i remember my wife used to arrive in school 1 hour early just to secure a parking spot that was near her school and where she didn't have to walk in the blazing heat. on a more positive note, they now have shuttles bringing people from booneyland parking to your school.

a plus would be attending weekly chapel service. not a bad way to start ur day, esp. if u have an exam. =) nothing wrong with a little divine intervention. also, free gym membership for u and ur family. (the drayson center also has a pool with slide!) also, u will notice that students are generally nice and willing to help each other.

i suggested UOP becoz of the 3 year program and it's location. i've been to both campuses and if i had a choice, i would have picked UOP. but hey, it's not my decision. hope this helps.
 

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RicDDS and J2AZ both laid it down pretty well...2 of the best posts that I have seen in a while. I too am between LLU and USC - I would choose LLU at this point due to what I know and what I have been reading.....but Im also waiting for another school....UCSF and I would go there in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the information you guys...and maybe Ill see DREDAY in LLU or J2AZ and DREDAY in UCSF (cuz I know he's also dying to hear from SF)!
 

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LLU or UoP.......Pepsi or coke? each person has a different preference and opinion. you have to match yourself to the school that fits you. take your time and the decision will come, good luck.
 
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DREDAY

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J2AZ said:
I am amazed...stunned more like it. I is crazy how defensive and rude some people get when UOP's curriculum is brought into question. All hail UOP. Dont get me wrong, UOP is a great school. If I was accepted I would consider going there. However, before doing so I would open up a thread like this and ask for opinions (pros and cons) of my top two choices. Dont take posts so seriously man. It is understood that some stuff you get is fact and some is BS. Chill. Some serious issues have been raised in this thread and if you guys are UOP backers than take it as an chance to educate people not bash them for voicing "hearsay." After all hearsay is only dangerous if someone passes it off as their OWN. If I say UOP students are not clinically prepared I will tell you where I live and you can come and shoot me. On the other hand if I state like dentalnitemares "from most of my friends that goes to UOP dental, a lot of them are feeling that 3 years is just not enough training, and have applied to do the AEGD programs at either stockton or union city to get some more practice in." That is valid and worthy of discusion. To say these comments are ignorant is laughable. Hell, these comments are from current students. This I KNOW for a FACT: Many dentist I have spoke to about UOP (5+) wonder if three years is enough time to learn dentistry. True you get 2 years of clinical but you sacrafice when building the didactic foundation. There is no way to fit 2 years of didactic and sim lab into 15 months. And last time I checked (but correct me if I am wrong) but most dental schools only give their students the first summer off. After that you are in the clinic or classroom. Saying UOP makes up for time by going year round with no summer breaks does not really account for anything. Finally, to be offended when someone mentions that UOP grads feel unprepared after graduation illustrates ignorance. I would venture that 90% dentists feel unprepared after graduation (even UOP grads). Those that feel confident in their skills just dont know how bad they truly are. In no way does UOP create SUPER dentists. LLU is just as good as are many other schools. All you UOP guys and gals, please dont whine, cry, and lash out because I stat what I believe and what I have been told by very reliable sources. Oh, and a side note. I know four UOP graduates. One is a succesful endodontist. Great guy. Two are GP's and doing fine but wishing they could afford the car their boss is driving but cant b/c of student loans. The fourth runs a very successful chop shop that prays on the uneducated public and sells procedures that are not needed. This is FACT b/c I have seen what he does. EVery school, even UOP, graduates winners and loosers it is your choice which of the two you want to be.

This is the best response to my question bro. I really appreciate your answer I will take what you say into deep consideration. Thank you.
 

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Some people are pretty adamant about saying that Pacific grads aren't well prepared. Apparently, didactic studies make a huge difference. And AEGD programs around the country must be for students who didn't get enough training in dental school. Are poor dental schools the only schools that send students on to AEGD?

The fact is that Pacific does just as good a job at educating their students as every other school in the country, if not a better job. There are standard procedures for filling cavities, doing endo, extracting teeth, prepping crowns, etc. that all schools teach their students. The difference is that instead of having to refer molar endo procedures, 3rd molar extractions, and other complicated procedures to grad students because they have specialty programs, schools without these programs allow a greater proportion of these cases to go to "undergrad" dental students.

You can drink whichever flavor of kool-aid you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Pacific provides one of the best clinical training experiences in the country.

As for the didactic, I'll let everyone know how often I'm using biochemistry, histology, and anatomy of the trunk and appendages down the road. I'm sure it'll be everyday. Gosh, I wish I had gone to a school that really emphasized that part of the curriculum. Now, I'll never be a good dentist.
 

JavadiCavity

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I am amazed...stunned more like it. I is crazy how defensive and rude some people get when UOP's curriculum is brought into question. All hail UOP. Dont get me wrong, UOP is a great school. If I was accepted I would consider going there. However, before doing so I would open up a thread like this and ask for opinions (pros and cons) of my top two choices. Dont take posts so seriously man. It is understood that some stuff you get is fact and some is BS. Chill. Some serious issues have been raised in this thread and if you guys are UOP backers than take it as an chance to educate people not bash them for voicing "hearsay." After all hearsay is only dangerous if someone passes it off as their OWN. If I say UOP students are not clinically prepared I will tell you where I live and you can come and shoot me. On the other hand if I state like dentalnitemares "from most of my friends that goes to UOP dental, a lot of them are feeling that 3 years is just not enough training, and have applied to do the AEGD programs at either stockton or union city to get some more practice in." That is valid and worthy of discusion. To say these comments are ignorant is laughable. Hell, these comments are from current students. This I KNOW for a FACT: Many dentist I have spoke to about UOP (5+) wonder if three years is enough time to learn dentistry. True you get 2 years of clinical but you sacrafice when building the didactic foundation. There is no way to fit 2 years of didactic and sim lab into 15 months. And last time I checked (but correct me if I am wrong) but most dental schools only give their students the first summer off. After that you are in the clinic or classroom. Saying UOP makes up for time by going year round with no summer breaks does not really account for anything. Finally, to be offended when someone mentions that UOP grads feel unprepared after graduation illustrates ignorance. I would venture that 90% dentists feel unprepared after graduation (even UOP grads). Those that feel confident in their skills just dont know how bad they truly are. In no way does UOP create SUPER dentists. LLU is just as good as are many other schools. All you UOP guys and gals, please dont whine, cry, and lash out because I stat what I believe and what I have been told by very reliable sources. Oh, and a side note. I know four UOP graduates. One is a succesful endodontist. Great guy. Two are GP's and doing fine but wishing they could afford the car their boss is driving but cant b/c of student loans. The fourth runs a very successful chop shop that prays on the uneducated public and sells procedures that are not needed. This is FACT b/c I have seen what he does. EVery school, even UOP, graduates winners and loosers it is your choice which of the two you want to be.

I read through this thread again, and no where could I find any comments where Pacific students were offended, hurt, or upset. Whatever tone you read from their comments is up to you. Jugga's comments about STFU weren't appropriate, but the idea is that if you're just saying things you don't konw first hand, then don't share 'em.

1. No one believes that Pacific creates "SUPER" dentists.
2. Being a dentist doesn't qualify you as an expert on a dental school's curriculum.
3. Some students regardless of where they attend school will never feel confident in their skills.
4. Feeling confident doesn't mean you are bad at dentistry.
5. Didactic studies are a means to an end and not the end itself.
6. Anyway you look at it, Pacific students get all the same training in 3 years that other schools get in 4 years.
7. LLU is a good dental school with specialty programs, so it might limit the types of cases you see.
8. Buying a car as a nice as your bosses right out of dental school isn't going to be a reality for many students who attended any private school.
 

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well said javadi.

JavadiCavity said:
I read through this thread again, and no where could I find any comments where Pacific students were offended, hurt, or upset. Whatever tone you read from their comments is up to you. Jugga's comments about STFU weren't appropriate, but the idea is that if you're just saying things you don't konw first hand, then don't share 'em.

1. No one believes that Pacific creates "SUPER" dentists.
2. Being a dentist doesn't qualify you as an expert on a dental school's curriculum.
3. Some students regardless of where they attend school will never feel confident in their skills.
4. Feeling confident doesn't mean you are bad at dentistry.
5. Didactic studies are a means to an end and not the end itself.
6. Anyway you look at it, Pacific students get all the same training in 3 years that other schools get in 4 years.
7. LLU is a good dental school with specialty programs, so it might limit the types of cases you see.
8. Buying a car as a nice as your bosses right out of dental school isn't going to be a reality for many students who attended any private school.
 
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DREDAY

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JavadiCavity said:
Some people are pretty adamant about saying that Pacific grads aren't well prepared. Apparently, didactic studies make a huge difference. And AEGD programs around the country must be for students who didn't get enough training in dental school. Are poor dental schools the only schools that send students on to AEGD?

The fact is that Pacific does just as good a job at educating their students as every other school in the country, if not a better job. There are standard procedures for filling cavities, doing endo, extracting teeth, prepping crowns, etc. that all schools teach their students. The difference is that instead of having to refer molar endo procedures, 3rd molar extractions, and other complicated procedures to grad students because they have specialty programs, schools without these programs allow a greater proportion of these cases to go to "undergrad" dental students.

You can drink whichever flavor of kool-aid you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Pacific provides one of the best clinical training experiences in the country.

As for the didactic, I'll let everyone know how often I'm using biochemistry, histology, and anatomy of the trunk and appendages down the road. I'm sure it'll be everyday. Gosh, I wish I had gone to a school that really emphasized that part of the curriculum. Now, I'll never be a good dentist.

Yeah that is the same sales pitch they game me during my interview. Remember every school is gonna advertise themselves the best to their ability in order to convince you why they are the best dental school in the country. That doesn't nescesarrily make it so. That is why we have to do outside research on our own, by looking at numbers and asking unbiassed sources for opinions. Of what seems to be unbiassed sources, (dentists who have graduated from 4 from USC, 3 from UCLA) they all advised me to go to loma linda. All said, both are good schools but they said that loma linda would clinically prepare me better. They also said the fact that I will be paying $135,000 less in loans should be a dead giveaway to go to loma linda.

Thus far I have spoken to 1 person who told me I should go to UOP other than SDNers and that was DR. Bill from extreme makeover. but ofcourse he is biased source as he is a UOP graduate.

What I am trying to do is accumulate as much factual information as possible as well as some opinions and use that to weigh the pros and cons of both schools and then decide. THe only factual information I have is that LOMA LINDA is ranked #1 in clinical by the ADA, and it is cheaper. (by factual information, I mean statistical or numerical data, and not sales pitch given to me by the school). I know UOP is a great school, and from my interview it seems like a great environment to be in as well as great technology in their sim lab and class rooms. Also of particular importance is the relationship between faculty and students. I also noticed this close relationship between faculty and students during my Loma Linda interview.

Another thing, unfortunately my parents will not be able to help me with the tuition for dental school, nor the living costs. So I will have to take out maximum loans and pay them back when I get out of dental school. The only way my parents can help me is my making a downpayment on a condo close to the school so that I can save the 40 - 50 k of rent. Which will translate in savings of 100k in 12 years.

UOP though is in the heart of san francisco, and I really liked the city and there will be alot to do in terms of night life.
 

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Sounds like LLU is the place for you. I've heard great things about the school. Best of luck to you.

As for a sales pitch, I must have missed it when I was at UOP. I made up that stuff based on my interviewing experiences this year.

Sounds like you've talked with dentists who have never attended either school (Pacific or LLU) with the exception of Dr. Bill, who's opinion (like you said) I wouldn't give much creedance to. It might be worth your time to try and find dentists who have attended either Pacific or LLU and ask them specifics. I know Pacific has an Alumni guide with addresses and phone numbers of all their alumni. I browsed through it and found some dentists in my local area. When I got home, I looked them up. Maybe LLU has some similar information to share.

As for debt, Pacific's website estimates expenses for 3 years (not including living expenses) to be $210,000. You said you earned the $30,000 scholarship. That nets at $180,000. LLU's website estimates expenses to $165,000 (rounded). That's a difference of $15,000.

Living expenses are high. With a family of 5, we are looking at moving to Marin County and spending between $1,400/mo to $1,800/mo. I'm not sure how that compares to LLU and the area, but for me it's high. I'm paying $600/month now. However, you are making some signifcant assumptions when you say that you'll recoup all of your mortgage payments when the home sells. The best bet to make when you buy a home is that you will only get out the equity that is left from amortizing the loan. Anything else is gravy.

Also, while you are willing to assume your home will greatly appreciate you seem skeptical about how much your earnings average will be during your life because you said it depends on how long you work. In my mind, it seems to be just as big an assumption to say your home will appreciate by X amount as it does to say that you doubt your earnings average will be Y.

Finally, the banter I've seen in numerous threads about who is ranked number 1 clinically by the ADA borders on stupid. The dean of UCSF tells interviewees that LLU and UCSF are ranked very high for clincal OUTPUT. So basically, the way I interpret that comment is like this: Our school's students see more patients than any other school in the nation. That's all! What if it turned out that 98% of their clinical output were routine fillings and prophies? Would that be a significant thing to know? I'm betting that LLU does more than just let their students fill teeth, but the statement that my school has the highest clinical output is about as valuble as McDonald's signs that say 1.7 trillion people served. So they make a lot of burgers, that doesn't mean the cooks make really good food.

I'm sure you'll pick the school that is best for you. I'm interested in seeing where you go. I'd really look into talking with Pacific and LLU alumni. Again, good luck to you.
 

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At the end of your dental education you will be a dentist, and whether you will be a good one is up to you. I don't think their is any difference between the quality of education you will recieve at any of the cali dental schools, except for where you prefer to live and how interested you are in research.
However, from my interviews at some of the east coast dental schools and cali dental schools, I did see a difference in the cases you will recieve in the clinics based on the patient pools. You will diff see a variety of cases that you rarely will see in cali. Everybody in cali wants the hollywood smile and being fake is such a huge thing cosmetic dentistry does very well, people do take better care of their teeth.
If you want to be a dentist to make lots and lots of money cali is the place to be, and their is nothing wrong with that if that works for you, most predental students have never experienced anything related to dentistry and decide to go to dental school because its the best career to make money right now or just couldn't get into med school or don't want to put the time into med school because don't make as much money as a dentist...you still get the "doctor status" right so who cares....sorry I went off track..just venting don't mind me :smuggrin:
 

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JavadiCavity said:
Sounds like LLU is the place for you. I've heard great things about the school. Best of luck to you.

As for a sales pitch, I must have missed it when I was at UOP. I made up that stuff based on my interviewing experiences this year.

Sounds like you've talked with dentists who have never attended either school (Pacific or LLU) with the exception of Dr. Bill, who's opinion (like you said) I wouldn't give much creedance to. It might be worth your time to try and find dentists who have attended either Pacific or LLU and ask them specifics. I know Pacific has an Alumni guide with addresses and phone numbers of all their alumni. I browsed through it and found some dentists in my local area. When I got home, I looked them up. Maybe LLU has some similar information to share.

As for debt, Pacific's website estimates expenses for 3 years (not including living expenses) to be $210,000. You said you earned the $30,000 scholarship. That nets at $180,000. LLU's website estimates expenses to $165,000 (rounded). That's a difference of $15,000.

Living expenses are high. With a family of 5, we are looking at moving to Marin County and spending between $1,400/mo to $1,800/mo. I'm not sure how that compares to LLU and the area, but for me it's high. I'm paying $600/month now. However, you are making some signifcant assumptions when you say that you'll recoup all of your mortgage payments when the home sells. The best bet to make when you buy a home is that you will only get out the equity that is left from amortizing the loan. Anything else is gravy.

Also, while you are willing to assume your home will greatly appreciate you seem skeptical about how much your earnings average will be during your life because you said it depends on how long you work. In my mind, it seems to be just as big an assumption to say your home will appreciate by X amount as it does to say that you doubt your earnings average will be Y.

Finally, the banter I've seen in numerous threads about who is ranked number 1 clinically by the ADA borders on stupid. The dean of UCSF tells interviewees that LLU and UCSF are ranked very high for clincal OUTPUT. So basically, the way I interpret that comment is like this: Our school's students see more patients than any other school in the nation. That's all! What if it turned out that 98% of their clinical output were routine fillings and prophies? Would that be a significant thing to know? I'm betting that LLU does more than just let their students fill teeth, but the statement that my school has the highest clinical output is about as valuble as McDonald's signs that say 1.7 trillion people served. So they make a lot of burgers, that doesn't mean the cooks make really good food.

I'm sure you'll pick the school that is best for you. I'm interested in seeing where you go. I'd really look into talking with Pacific and LLU alumni. Again, good luck to you.
I have to agree with JavadiCavity's statements here. Hearing that a school has a #1 output does not equate to quality dental work. I interviewed at Loma Linda last year and asked my interviewer what the passing rates were for the boards and he said -- "We did bad." The interviewer, who was a professor at LLU dental, further explained to me that they had a 69% passing rate on the licensing exam, which was the worst of all the California schools. Now, despite having said this, I believe LLU is a good school, but IMHO it does not even come close to UOP. I think Java put it best -- output does not equal quality work.

Another concern I want to address is about clinical experience at UOP. UCSF may have a high output, but they do have less clinical requirements especially when it comes to endo work. I've spoken to both UOP and UCSF dental students and the requirements needed to meet the graduation deadline are more heavy on the UOP students and it's a 3 yr school!

It sounds to me that your heart is set on LLU, which is totally fine, but don't make one possibly misleading or misinterpreted statistic the basis for your decision. Think about the other factors you mentioned such as family and money. If you feel that LLU will provide you with a great education, then go there. However, don't let anyone dupe you into thinking that UOP is clinically inferior because that's flat out wrong.

Also, don't forget -- YOU GET OUT ONE YEAR EARLIER AT UOP. So, that 1 more you year could go into making a lot of money to pay off those tuition loans (depending on how you want to handle it). It gives you options, freedom, and independence.

Here's some pointers/questions I would consider if I was making the decision:
1) What kind of feeling did I get from visiting and interviewing at the school?
2) Did the students talk positively about their school?
3) Can I physically see myself going there?
4) Can I "put up" with going to Church on Wednesdays?
5) Can I succumb to the no meat policy on campus?
6) Is being near my family that important to me?
7) How much of a factor is money vs. the school I REALLY want to go to?

I wish you the best of luck with your decision.
 

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JavadiCavity said:
Sounds like LLU is the place for you. I've heard great things about the school. Best of luck to you.

As for a sales pitch, I must have missed it when I was at UOP. I made up that stuff based on my interviewing experiences this year.

Sounds like you've talked with dentists who have never attended either school (Pacific or LLU) with the exception of Dr. Bill, who's opinion (like you said) I wouldn't give much creedance to. It might be worth your time to try and find dentists who have attended either Pacific or LLU and ask them specifics. I know Pacific has an Alumni guide with addresses and phone numbers of all their alumni. I browsed through it and found some dentists in my local area. When I got home, I looked them up. Maybe LLU has some similar information to share.

As for debt, Pacific's website estimates expenses for 3 years (not including living expenses) to be $210,000. You said you earned the $30,000 scholarship. That nets at $180,000. LLU's website estimates expenses to $165,000 (rounded). That's a difference of $15,000.

Living expenses are high. With a family of 5, we are looking at moving to Marin County and spending between $1,400/mo to $1,800/mo. I'm not sure how that compares to LLU and the area, but for me it's high. I'm paying $600/month now. However, you are making some signifcant assumptions when you say that you'll recoup all of your mortgage payments when the home sells. The best bet to make when you buy a home is that you will only get out the equity that is left from amortizing the loan. Anything else is gravy.

Also, while you are willing to assume your home will greatly appreciate you seem skeptical about how much your earnings average will be during your life because you said it depends on how long you work. In my mind, it seems to be just as big an assumption to say your home will appreciate by X amount as it does to say that you doubt your earnings average will be Y.

Finally, the banter I've seen in numerous threads about who is ranked number 1 clinically by the ADA borders on stupid. The dean of UCSF tells interviewees that LLU and UCSF are ranked very high for clincal OUTPUT. So basically, the way I interpret that comment is like this: Our school's students see more patients than any other school in the nation. That's all! What if it turned out that 98% of their clinical output were routine fillings and prophies? Would that be a significant thing to know? I'm betting that LLU does more than just let their students fill teeth, but the statement that my school has the highest clinical output is about as valuble as McDonald's signs that say 1.7 trillion people served. So they make a lot of burgers, that doesn't mean the cooks make really good food.

I'm sure you'll pick the school that is best for you. I'm interested in seeing where you go. I'd really look into talking with Pacific and LLU alumni. Again, good luck to you.
Yes, yes. Anyone who has ever attended any type of UOP seminar or recruiting session knows they full your head full of all the pro's of UOP and how they are God's gift to dentistry and how it is really a cost effective education. I think they are full of crap though. Just my humble opinion.
 

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Kiluminati said:
Yes, yes. Anyone who has ever attended any type of UOP seminar or recruiting session knows they full your head full of all the pro's of UOP and how they are God's gift to dentistry and how it is really a cost effective education. I think they are full of crap though. Just my humble opinion.
Its because the University of the Pacific implemented comprehensive campaign privately awhile back, and the dental school went public with $50 million Committment to Excellence campaign recently. "making an investment in the Dean's vision for th future, your gifts and pledges express your appreciation for the life work of Dean Arthur A. Dugoni"......this is in their campaign brochure..."your investments change lives and make this world a better place." :laugh:
 

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usdental said:
...most predental students have never experienced anything related to dentistry and decide to go to dental school because its the best career to make money right now or just couldn't get into med school or don't want to put the time into med school because don't make as much money as a dentist...you still get the "doctor status" right so who cares....sorry I went off track..just venting don't mind me :smuggrin:
This is way off topic, and I understand if you're just venting but I think you're wrong that "most" or even many dentists chose dentistry as a plan B to med school. For a lot of us it's not about the doctor status or the money, it's a totally different and more convenient lifestyle.
 

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Kiluminati said:
Yes, yes. Anyone who has ever attended any type of UOP seminar or recruiting session knows they full your head full of all the pro's of UOP and how they are God's gift to dentistry and how it is really a cost effective education. I think they are full of crap though. Just my humble opinion.
I think you are just spouting "crap" off for no reason. You've given no evidence to support your statements.

So aside from the high cost of living in SF area, what are the reasons why people shouldn't attend Pacific? What are the cons that Pacific refuses to tell anyone?

Based on my interviewing experience this year, EVERY school I visited went to great efforts to make sure they cast their school in the best light.
 

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JavadiCavity said:
I think you are just spouting "crap" off for no reason. You've given no evidence to support your statements.

So aside from the high cost of living in SF area, what are the reasons why people shouldn't attend Pacific? What are the cons that Pacific refuses to tell anyone?

Based on my interviewing experience this year, EVERY school I visited went to great efforts to make sure they cast their school in the best light.
And the only evidence you have is the same crap that UOP stuffs down your throat everytime you talk to them. I didn't say people shouldn't attend UOP. I said that LLU is better. I think UOP tries to paint itself as a cut above the rest of the dental schools, which I don't think is the case. Living costs are horrible in SF, but the cost of UOP is also a joke. Sure, you can say that the 3-year program allows you to get a jump on payng back your loans...so you pay off your loans 1 year earlier? Yippee. I guess you could live like a student for the year after you graduate and pay off a good chunk of loans, but honestly, who is gonna do that?
 
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Kiluminati said:
And the only evidence you have is the same crap that UOP stuffs down your throat everytime you talk to them. I didn't say people shouldn't attend UOP. I said that LLU is better. I think UOP tries to paint itself as a cut above the rest of the dental schools, which I don't think is the case. Living costs are horrible in SF, but the cost of UOP is also a joke. Sure, you can say that the 3-year program allows you to get a jump on payng back your loans...so you pay off your loans 1 year earlier? Yippee. I guess you could live like a student for the year after you graduate and pay off a good chunk of loans, but honestly, who is gonna do that?
actually you are not going to pay your loans off 1 year earlier. As I mentioned earlier, if I attend UOP, i will have to take out 65k more in loans than if I attend Loma Linda. At UOP I would have to take out 248,000 in loans. At Loma Linda I would have to take out 183,000 in loans. In UOP's packet they claim the loan repayment interest is about 6% and according to their formula most people, payback within 12 years and by that time your loan has doubled. At UOP ill be making 2800.00 payments a month at LOMA LINDA I will pay 2100.00 for my repayment. that ends up being 33600 and 25200 dollar diff.
 

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Ok, I get it. Your problem with Pacific is that you were offended by their recruiting meeting. They stuffed info down your throat against your will. They painted themselves a "cut above the rest." And this attitude bothers you. I gotcha.
 

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JavadiCavity said:
Ok, I get it. Your problem with Pacific is that you were offended by their recruiting meeting. They stuffed info down your throat against your will. They painted themselves a "cut above the rest." And this attitude bothers you. I gotcha.
From reading some posts on this site, I have gotten the general impression that most of the people who will be attending UOP act as if it is a cut above the rest. But I guess most people feel the same way about their own school.
 

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JavadiCavity said:
Ok, I get it. Your problem with Pacific is that you were offended by their recruiting meeting. They stuffed info down your throat against your will. They painted themselves a "cut above the rest." And this attitude bothers you. I gotcha.
You got it. I know every dental school has to sell themselves to get students, but it seemed to me that UOP really sold themselves. With every negative question they danced around it with all the positives of UOP without truly answering the question. It just seemed to me that the recruiters for UOP spoke more like salesman and politicians than anything else. In that respect they were a cut above the rest. It just didn't sit well with me and left a bad taste in my mouth. It almost felt like they were hiding something.