While it is beyond evident that UOP has a far better didactic approach than USC's lackluster PBL, I would be remiss to say that USC does not have better clinical skills than UOP, although not by much. Not only that but USC's name and networking surpasses almost all dental schools in that aspect. These opinions are not my own but are the general consensus of various successful dentists and dental specialists that I have talked with throughout California many of whom have no bias towards either school having never attended them rather just hired graduates of their given programs. As a result I am having such a difficult time figuring out what I should do and where I should attend (the 3 years of UOP versus the 4 years of USC really does not figure into this decision for me personally). Yes I know that UOP probably is the better school overall but I know that when all is said and done, it does not open the same doors as being a USC alumni. I welcome any and all advice....
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If you want to specialize, go to USC, you'll have an easier time there doing so. Plus, I heard that's where the networking comes in with specializing at USC. Their programs take their own DDS students. Look on the flip side with Pacific. It is still possible to do it at UOP, it's just REALLY REALLY hard in my opinion. You'll have to give up the little time you have left from school to do so. That would probably drive me insane.
First, You are not going to be a more "successful" dentist by going to a specific school based on name alone. Period. There are many other things that factor into equation, mainly: how good are you at business/selling yourself.
Secondly, if "name were the case" then you're out of luck because "ucsf" "ucla" theoretically have a "higher name" then both schools. I honestly don't think it factors into the equation as to getting hired. If you want the job, you'll get the job by selling yourself, being persistent, being personable, and by having the skills good dentist. Every school can theoretically provide those grounds.
Disclaimer: Some people that argue that "some schools better prepare you clinically. While that maybe true, after a few years, your skills will even you out with the rest of the field. And finally, Dentistry is what you put into it. You can be the best damn clinician provided u put the time and effort in it. Being placed in a program automatically doesn't make you a great clinician unless you put the time and effort in it.
Lastly, name in dentistry means very little. The average ordinary person doesn't ask or know where their dentist got their degree from. They care more about A) Price, B) Store hours, C) Personality D) Location. All these are "business" aspects of dentistry.
How will an average patient know the difference between a good root canal and an average one? They won't.
For those that argue that name in the medical field does matter, well it does to an extent. If I wanted to get a heart surgery, I would want someone from Case, John Hopkins, Harvard etc. If I wanted to get a OMFS surgery that replaced my entire jaw, I would want someone from an IVY. If I wanted someone to clean my teeth, I want someone that is cheap, quick and efficient. Dentistry's name means very little in the scope of the general picture.
Yes, some schools have better "chances" to specialize or whatnot; however, if you want to, you can have just as much of a chance to specialize in any school provided u put the work and effort.
In my opinion, name means very little.
In every education system, you receive what you put into it. You can be successful in both programs provided you try. That being said, my personal decision is based on happiness. =)
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Go to USC, pbl is a nice change up from boring lectures of faculty regurgitating the same information on powerpoint slides which are from textbooks. I personally feel that at this point in my academic career I don't really benefit from lectures much as long as I have the necessary material (ie from book or powerpoint). And don't be so quick to think that the name of a school doesn't carry a lot of weight in public perception. Every time some one has asked which school I go to and I say USC, people are very impressed. Again this is the public's perception and these will be the people who you are treating. UOP's tuition is more expensive than USC's and the fact that they rush your education definitely means their graduates are lacking something. I have heard that USC graduates are clinically ready to hit private practice after graduation, from multiple private practitioners. And yes the trojan network is very strong compared to the tigers (who?)
i guess another factor you can use is if you plan to practice in socal, then usc. if norcal, then uop. this is what i got from the dentist i shadowed. but really, this heavily depends on how you wanna go through dental school. pbl or no pbl.
you can specialize at both schools, its just harder to do it at uop. usc has every specialty and you're allowed to work in that department in your free time, a big plus.
you can specialize at both schools, its just harder to do it at uop. usc has every specialty and you're allowed to work in that department in your free time, a big plus.
That statement looks ALMOST believeble on student doctor network if you didn't have that line in there.
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I pretty much agree with what you've said in your post, except this paragraph makes absolutely no sense in light of what you said. If you were going to get an intensive surgery, wouldn't you want someone who had the best training as opposed to the best name.
I highlighted the portion of the post where you mentioned if you needed intensive oral surgery, you would want an Ivy league trained surgeon. Do a little research into the Ivy league OMFS programs and how the training there is perceived by the OMS community at large. The real heavy-hitters in OMFS are the southern programs (e.g. UAB, LSU, Parkland) which don't have much name recognition at all. If I were going to get significant jaw pathology operated on, I wouldn't want an Ivy league OMFS anywhere near it unless they had significant post-residency training.
Same goes for heart surgery. If I were getting heart surgery I would do my research and pick the best surgeon regardless of their educational background.
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UoP being more expensive than USC is simply laughable and easily refuted with a Google search.
USC (http://dentistry.usc.edu/doctoral.aspx?id=912)
Total cost of attendance - $391,252
UoP (http://dental.pacific.edu/Academic_Programs/Doctor_of_Dental_Surgery/Tuition_and_Fees/Estimating_Your_Attendance_Costs.html)
Total cost of attendance (Assuming off campus) - $371,955
So it's cheaper, you finish a year earlier AND you don't have to live in a crappy part of town.
I resent being told by a dental student that I, as a graduate of UoP dental, am lacking any significant portion of my dental education. Graduates of Pacific trend towards being quite clinically proficient, and it's definitely manageable to complete a DDS curriculum in 3 years. In fact, many recent graduates of USC have told me they felt they could have completed USC's curriculum in 3 years.
Realistically, our graduates do very well on the clinical boards and have a nationwide reputation for clinical excellence and leadership, so if you're reading this and considering Pacific I wouldn't worry too much about the sad musings of a single USC dental student who seems to lack simple addition skills as illustrated above.
Lastly, what people in the "general public" are impressed with should be the last thing on your mind when you're looking at where you want to go for dental school. There are OBJECTIVE factors like cost of education that are far more important.
Even if people were very impressed with a USC grad, how is that going to affect your bottom line when you're in practice? How many patients is that going to bring banging down the doors of your practice? Before you started considering dental school did you know where your family dentist went to school? Here's a nice easy experiment. Put down the keyboard right now and call your grandma (You really should call your grandma anyway). Ask your grandma where her dentist went to dental school. Ask your parents. I'd bet over 90% (if your parent is a "general public" type person) are going to have no idea.
What they are going know is how easy it is to park there. They're going to know what their friend says about her experience with you. They're going to see your practices Yelp review. They're going to know how uncomfortable you make them when you give them an IANB. I'd say all of these things are more important to your future bottom line than where you went to school.
As far as alumni networks, Pacific has what is considered one of the strongest and most well known dental school alumni networks around. I realize USC has a good one as well, but the fact that you didn't even know about UOP's just shows that you're pretty ignorant of the situation.
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Lol, yes I said this without any of the forementioned research...which does take away from my argument
; however, I'm looking through a different perspective. - not from a medical/dental students standpoint. That being said- I agree with what you said. <---insert foot in mouth.
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Why would you think you'd have an easier time specializing at USC? As a UoP grad, I thought specializing from UoP was very manageable as did some 15-20% of my classmates. I also don't think I understand where your experience with specializing comes from, I thought you were a first year?
Also, UoP has both ortho and OMFS residencies which give preference to UoP grads. UoP has a ridiculously strong pre-doctoral endo program which many endo residencies (Penn, Harvard, Baylor, UF) respect and take UoP grads regularly.
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I hope you understand that being an alumni of any dental school is not going to open any significant doors for you. Both USC and UoP have very active alumni networks and that can be a very good thing but we're not talking about Wharton or Harvard business here. We're talking about dentistry, where the normal mode of practice is being a sole practitioner, i.e. owning your own practice.
As far as the specific effect of being a USC alum, I'll reserve my opinion but I'd find recommend finding some recent grads and talking to them about what's the alumni network done for their professional lives. I think you'll be wholly underwhelmed.
3 years at Pacific is a huge deal. It's a full year of your professional life which has real, objective, fiscal value, and the cost of attendance, without even considering the extra year, is lower at Pacific! If there's anything that's going to open doors for you, it's lowering the amount of debt you accrue, not belonging to a certain group or club.
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Couldn't agree more. I guess the big question is whether specializing is an issue. Were I intending to specialize, I would go to USC; only because it is easier to specialize there. Apart from that, UoP is by far a superior school - a no brainer. UoP prepares you to walk away from dental school with confidence in procedures. That's saying alot. With many schools, students leave feeling a need to work for another dentist for at least a year before going it on their own.
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The assumption that it's easier to specialize from USC is a purely ridiculous one. Equivalent amounts of people specialize from both schools each year without difficulty and there isn't anything in either currriculum to prevent or encourage specialization that the other doesn't have.
I chose UoP knowing I wanted to specialize and it worked out perfectly.
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Also, I'd recommend taking information in these versus threads with a grain of salt. All of us have very strong feelings about our dental schools and we all want to feel like we're the best, but the fact of the matter is the differences in education between dental schools are minor. All of them grant equivalent degrees, all have relatively good success on the boards and all of them will require an intense amount of sacrifice on your part.
The differences expounded upon in these threads should be a minor part of your decision, and the major part should be based on objective factors like how much debt you're putting yourself in, location, proximity to family, how much time you're spending in school (really matters when considering UoP only) and how much debt you're putting yourself in.
The differences expounded upon in these threads should be a minor part of your decision, and the major part should be based on objective factors like how much debt you're putting yourself in, location, proximity to family, how much time you're spending in school (really matters when considering UoP only) and how much debt you're putting yourself in.
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I want to thank all of you guys for your input and hopefully it keeps coming through on this thread. Armor can you expand more on the time issue you referred to-obviously three years means far more time in school and less overall time to study. What has your experience been? What was a typical day for you like in your first year? With that being said when I went to UOP I was told by a few 2nd and 3rd years that UOP is great school however by the time you graduate, most (not all like yourself) students feel so burnt out from the three years of nonstop activity and sleep deprivation that specializing is completely out of the question for them. I did not hear this same sentiment from USC 3rd and 4th years.
armorshell, before u begin to mock me, why don't u learn how to read and count buddy. I said the tuition at UOP is more expensive and it is. Why don't u try to recalculate your figures again. Again in tuition, the cost of living isn't included in the calculation. If I remember correctly uop is about 5k more per year than usc tuition wise, of course we pay for an extra year of living expense, but uop pays more in tuition and the program is only 3 years long. P.S. to the OP, both schools are good choices.
check the websites again
its about same, +/- maybe 2k in total
but UOP is three year program, so one more year working + less interest accrued (kinda negligible in the shadow of the debt mountain)
and you get to live in the nicest neighborhood in the City
its about same, +/- maybe 2k in total
but UOP is three year program, so one more year working + less interest accrued (kinda negligible in the shadow of the debt mountain)
and you get to live in the nicest neighborhood in the City
Both USC and UOP are great schools. But if I had the choice, I'd choose UOP. Who wouldn't want to graduate in 3yrs? Other than that I don't know much of anything else about UOP. However having family who've graduated from USC I've heard great things about USC. From what I can tell, the name does make an impact and I mean not just in SoCal either. From my job-shadowing experience, I've been told by many patients that because they saw the words "USC graduate" listed in the ads or on the practice front itself they chose to come. Don't know if that means anything to you but it definitely made me have a better impression of USC in general. The downside is the PBL thing though. Yeah PBL is definitely different and weird, but hey if you enjoy that learning style and it fits you then go for it. Money-wise I think both schools are equally expensive period, but it's all worth it in the end. I mean it's only fair to invest a lot money into your education in order to make a lot of money right? As for specializing, I would prefer USC ONLY because of what I've heard from family. However I would expect UOP or any other dental school in cali would be just as good in that department as well.
Armor, what I was inplying is that you'll have a slightly easier schedule and more time to do well in school and less stress at USC over UOP. I have peers or friends from undergrad all over Cali dental schools, so naturally we would talk about certain topics. Like you said, your friend stated that USC can be done in 3 years. That means they have a lot more time on their hands to study for PBL or the boards right?
UOP definitely sounds more of a challenge from talking to my associates from my undergrad.
Of course, to specialize at UOP is a possibilty. However, you really have to work really really really hard to have a good chance. A few grads from your class and some from class of 2012, 2011 have all given me the same advice before I made my final decision on school. "If you want to speciazlie, make sure you have what it takes to last through the 3 year program and be the top 20-30%, otherwise Pacific might not be the best option because you will be burned out from it's curriculum and might not have enough left in the tank to achieve what you stride to do." It's my 2nd quarter here at Pacific and I absolutely agree with the Pacific students and grads who gave me those words. It's intense the way things are run here. You really have to be mentally and physically prepared.
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I actually did notice that you mentioned tuition and not total cost, I just ignored that fact because it doesn't make any sense not to consider total cost. Who cares what the tuition is or isn't, I'd want to know what the total of my loans are going to be to achieve my DDS.
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I suppose that depends on your learning style. Many people out there (Myself included) are the type that perform better under a strenuous academic schedule than a more lax one. Give me enough free time (i.e. rope) and I'll hang myself with it.
Also, consider that regardless of where you end up, you will be asked to perform better than 70-80% of your classmates in order to specialize. I'm not sure that you're suggesting the bar is set lower at USC but I don't believe it is. Given the fact that a few short years ago some 80% of their class couldn't manage to graduate on time I'd imagine the difficulty bar may be set quite a bit higher at USC than UoP.
Also, remember, that even though you have to best a good portion of your classmates in rank...someone has to be the top 20%. Everyone at UoP goes through the same difficulties, you just have to work harder. Just like you would at USC. Or UCLA. Or UCSF. USC and UoP don't have significantly different specializing "rates", so I like to imagine it's equally as "difficult" at both.
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The typical day of a first year at UoP may be better answered by others since the curriculum has changed since I attended. I will say however, that as someone who went through trying to specialize, my days went from 7am - 8 pm most weekdays (I'll say 4 days a week on average) and I came in for 3-4 hours most Saturdays. I did not study a significant amount (for didactics) during weekdays unless I had a test/quiz approaching and did most of my studying on the weekends. I also maintained a respectable social life during this time and probably "went out" a couple times a week.
If you have reasonable time management skills the only sleep deprivation you'll get from going to UoP is from the parties after finals week. There was rarely a time when I got less than 6 hours of sleep during my 3 years. I've never heard that sentiment you mentioned from anyone at UoP about being burned out, in fact everyone I can think of was really energetic about getting out into practice or moving on into their specialty.
UoP is a very unique school, and one that has very happy students in general. Why that is I can't explain, and I always used to think it was kind of a silly, weird little anomaly when I was a pre-dent. Know, I find myself espousing the same things my seniors told me when I was applying. Why Pacific is such a great place is very hard to explain, but I think it's just a perfect storm of lots of small things. Everyone really wants you to succeed and does what they can to make it happen, and there's a very collegial environment even between faculty and students.
That, combined with a rock solid clinical program, 3 year program and awesome area to live in (should) put Pacific at the top of many lists, especially if finances aren't an issue (Which in this versus thread, they aren't).
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Like I said before, thank you for all your feedback. I value what you alumni have to say because you have the unique advantage of being able to look back in retrospect and give your opinion of these schools now that you are finishing up or are practicing. Hopefully I can continue to get feedback.