UPenn + Specializing

sacapuntas · Jan 21, 2014

Listen to your brain rather than your heart unless you are OK with this:

enamorvssinful said:
'I currently live very simply and I don't mind doing so for dental school and for 10-20 years after I get out.'

Ionz · Jan 21, 2014

enamorvssinful said:
So I was leaning towards attending UPenn over UF (my state school) because not only do I want to have the option of specializing, but I loved everything about UPenn and I'm tired of Gainesville. However, I've been doing some research and it looks like most schools have pretty high tuition fees for specializing. Now I'm really second guessing on choosing UPenn because I'll probably be more than half a million in debt by the time I get out of dental school and a specialty program. I know that many will ask why I'm even considering going to UPenn, but I'd like to get some advice and feedback from people who went through it or are currently going through it. My heart is set on UPenn, but my brain is holding me back. If I attend UPenn and I'm lucky enough to get picked for a speciality, i.e. ortho, would it pay off in the end? I currently live very simply and I don't mind doing so for dental school and for several years after I get out. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Are you eligible for instate tuition at UF? If so, you'd be crazy not to go there. If not, then go with your heart lol.

enamorvssinful · Jan 21, 2014

Ionz said:
Are you eligible for instate tuition at UF? If so, you'd be cr

sacapuntas · Jan 21, 2014

enamorvssinful said:
Yes, I would receive in-state tuition. It would seem like a no brainer, but I really want to experience something outside of Florida, especially in an urban area. I've hear 50/50 on people saying that the experience is worth it and that it's not worth it.

To me it might be worth the experience if were talking about one of the cheapest OOS schools, but UPENN is one of the most expensive schools in the country. Are there any other OOS schools that are more reasonably priced that you have the option of attending?

ModifiedBass · Jan 21, 2014

Since you seem to be intent with going to UPenn, have you considered your various financing options? I myself will (probably) be attending UPenn, but that is only if I am accepted for the HPSP through the Navy or Army. I have a much cheaper, still exceptional in-state option in Maryland if those plans don't go through for whatever reason. Since you seem to want to experience different things/communities, I think you should look into the NHSC scholarship as well if you don't feel like the military is something you would want to do (I don't know anything about this scholarship/deadlines/competitiveness though so it is just a suggestion).

nomad12 · Jan 21, 2014

No brainer. Go to UF. If you study hard at UF, there is no reason you shouldn't get in to a specialty.

enamorvssinful · Jan 21, 2014

sacapuntas said:
To me it might be worth the experience if were talking about one of the cheapest OOS schools, but UPENN is one of the most expe

enamorvssinful · Jan 21, 2014

GJMeig said:
Since you seem to be intent with going to UPenn, have you considered your various financing options? I myself will (probably) be attend

Bereno · Jan 21, 2014

enamorvssinful said:
That's what I keep hearing. And yes, its the student that puts in the work, but you can't deny the resources that UPenn can provide, especially seeing their specialization rate. It's just hard to give up on a place I've been wanting to go to since the beginning.

For some reason, people tend to over-value the name of a school. I challenge you to make a list of the "resources" that UPenn has the UF does not. Seriously, write them down. To be honest, most of this value is in your head... Go to UF, start shadowing an ortho resident early on, get to know the ortho staff, be a regular there, get your name out there, do some research in ortho, go on an externship or two or three (if ortho has externships), do well on the GRE (which neither school will help with), get some good letters of rec, attend ortho-residency, take all the money you saved from UPenn and open up shop. If you want a different community, wait 4 years and go to a residency out of the area.

Screwtape · Jan 21, 2014

OP, you will be making the payments in the future. You should plug the estimated loans need for each school into a loan repayment calculator (there are many online) and see the difference in payments. If you think the difference (it's gonna be HUGE) can justify the experience, then go for it. Can you specialize in ortho from UF? Of course, people do it every year. I personally agree with the above comments, if you want to experience something other than Florida do it after dental school. It is preferable to set yourself up better financially early on so you can enjoy the rest of your life with more financial freedoms. I think choosing UPenn over UF for dental school would be shooting yourself financially in the foot.

ihavenoteeth · Jan 21, 2014

If you plan on specializing (ie ortho), you will be making MORE than enough money to pay back any loan you have, and still be living very comfortably. Go with your heart. If you want to experience something new, go to Penn. I did and don't regret my decision at all.

Bereno · Jan 21, 2014

ihavenoteeth said:
If you plan on specializing (ie ortho), you will be making MORE than enough money to pay back any loan you have, and still be living very comfortably. Go with your heart. If you want to experience something new, go to Penn. I did and don't regret my decision at all.

What year are you in? I know a dentist back in WA who graduated from UPenn that sings a different tune. Also, there is a very real possibility that the OP does not make it into ortho, which means that there is also a very real possibility their starting salary is sitting around the $100-110k mark. With loans of at a minimum of $412k (as of UPenn's website today) or $500k the day of graduation, or even $628k the day of ortho graduation (all assuming 7.9% interest, not including cost of ortho residency), that starting salary becomes ever more important. This is before a house, car, and business loan on top of that... Compare this to loans at a minimum of $296k (as of UF's website today) or $359k the day of graduation, or even $451 the day of ortho graduation (same assumptions).

The real question in my mind is two fold:
1. Can you make it into ortho at either school? I think the answer here is yes
2. Will the added cost of UPenn increase your salary to compensate for the cost of school? I am very confident the answer here is no.

UPenn is an awesome school that delivers a kickass education, but I just think it only the young/naive/foolish would go there over a state school when considering the costs you pay to go there. If I had a scholarship (as mentioned above) or my parents were paying I would go there hands down.

sjv · Jan 21, 2014

Bereno said:
What year are you in? I know a dentist back in WA who graduated from UPenn that sings a different tune. Also, there is a very real possibility that the OP does not make it into ortho, which means that there is also a very real possibility their starting salary is sitting around the $100-110k mark. With loans of at a minimum of $412k (as of UPenn's website today) or $500k the day of graduation, or even $628k the day of ortho graduation (all assuming 7.9% interest, not including cost of ortho residency), that starting salary becomes ever more important. This is before a house, car, and business loan on top of that... Compare this to loans at a minimum of $296k (as of UF's website today) or $359k the day of graduation, or even $451 the day of ortho graduation (same assumptions).

The real question in my mind is two fold:
1. Can you make it into ortho at either school? I think the answer here is yes
2. Will the added cost of UPenn increase your salary to compensate for the cost of school? I am very confident the answer here is no.

UPenn is an awesome school that delivers a kickass education, but I just think it only the young/naive/foolish would go there over a state school when considering the costs you pay to go there. If I had a scholarship (as mentioned above) or my parents were paying I would go there hands down.

Nailed it, 100% agreed.

NDPitch · Jan 21, 2014

ihavenoteeth said:
If you plan on specializing (ie ortho), you will be making MORE than enough money to pay back any loan you have, and still be living very comfortably. Go with your heart. If you want to experience something new, go to Penn. I did and don't regret my decision at all.

This is very shortsighted and naive.

I know someone that went to one of the big private schools with super high tuition, and then entered a 2 year ortho program. Currently, they're not doing so hot. As in, there's a possibility they might not make it out of the debt hole. Their current salary is not servicing their debt and living expenses.

OP - go to UF and thank yourself 10 years later when you're practicing and making your loan payments. You'll probably be thinking to yourself "I can't ever imagine my debt being twice as large as it is right now".

Ionz · Jan 21, 2014

enamorvssinful said:
Yes, I would receive in-state tuition. It would seem like a no brainer, but I really want to experience something outside of Florida, especially in an urban area. I've hear 50/50 on people saying that the experience is worth it and that it's not worth it.

Lol, I highly doubt you will experience something outside of Florida during the 4 busiest years of your life. Wherever you go, you will likely be in the lab/library/home 99% of the time, especially if you want the high grade/class rank you will need for ortho. I just checked out the instate tuition at UF and it's more than 28k difference PER YEAR (i.e. about 120K after 4 years + interest). I just don't understand how people can second guess these kinds of easy decisions...Man I'd so gladly take any instater's acceptance if I could 🙁

Shunwei · Jan 21, 2014

NDPitch said:
This is very shortsighted and naive.

I know someone that went to one of the big private schools with super high tuition, and then entered a 2 year ortho program. Currently, they're not doing so hot. As in, there's a possibility they might not make it out of the debt hole. Their current salary is not servicing their debt and living expenses.

OP - go to UF and thank yourself 10 years later when you're practicing and making your loan payments. You'll probably be thinking to yourself "I can't ever imagine my debt being twice as large as it is right now".

Most predents or dental students have no concept of the value or relevance of money in the real world. To them, it's just a number right now in the student loan column and, coupled with polyanna about what they hope/think they'll be getting (and is ortho still considered 'hot' nowadays?), it's precisely the kind of financial entrapment financial loan institutions want to see.

Silent Cool · Jan 21, 2014

enamorvssinful said:
So I was leaning towards attending UPenn over UF (my state school) because not only do I want to have the option of specializing, but I loved everything about UPenn and I'm tired of Gainesville. However, I've been doing some research and it looks like most schools have pretty high tuition fees for specializing. Now I'm really second guessing on choosing UPenn because I'll probably be more than half a million in debt by the time I get out of dental school and a specialty program. I know that many will ask why I'm even considering going to UPenn, but I'd like to get some advice and feedback from people who went through it or are currently going through it. My heart is set on UPenn, but my brain is holding me back. If I attend UPenn and I'm lucky enough to get picked for a speciality, i.e. ortho, would it pay off in the end? I currently live very simply and I don't mind doing so for dental school and for several years after I get out. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

OP,

I've harped away about this before, but I'll do it again because it bears repeating.

If you attend UPENN you will walk out with 500K of loans.
If you attend UPENN's Ortho program, you will finish it with ~800K of loans.
If you have a modest undergrad debt of 50K (very common now), and you attend UPENN ortho, you will owe ~900K of loans.

This is assuming an average interest rate of 7.35% (I know it changed recently but let's just use that number anyway).

That means if you want to pay back your loans over 20 years, you will pay $7168 per month, or about 86K per year--for 20 years.

If you want to make the Ortho avg. of ~300K (it's actually a bit less than that but let's just go with it), you will need to own a practice. That means probably another 400K of debt. So you will owe 1.3 million. If you live in good ol' PA and earn 300K there, you will be taken down to about 195K after taxes. Subtract another 86K and we're looking at 110k. Subtract another 50K per year for practice loans. That's 60K. That's basically the post-tax equivalent of someone earning ~85K (do forgive some of my numbers here--I'm ball-parking this thing and using paycheckcity.com ).

Anyway, if UPENN is your only choice, go there. If you have a cheaper option (which you do), go there. To be perfectly blunt with you, I think that entrance into any specialty is achievable if you are in the upper half of your class. I've read many anecdotes on SDN about people getting into oral surgery who were average performers. Granted they were not admitted into their top-choice program or a top-ranked program, but they got into *A* program, and that's all that matters. Over on the ortho thread, I read many posts by hopeful applicants who applied to only seven or eight programs. Really? You want to be an ortho an applied to a handful of programs? That's stupid. Over on the dermatology forums, there are numerous posts from hopeful applicants who applied to EVERY PROGRAM IN THE COUNTRY. So, if you attend UFL and have a so-so class rank, that's what you need to do to get into your desired specialty--break out the credit card and apply to every program. You don't need UPENN to 'get you in.'

good luck

sacapuntas · Jan 21, 2014

Ionz said:
Lol, I highly doubt you will experience something outside of Florida during the 4 busiest years of your life. Wherever you go, you will likely be in the lab/library/home 99% of the time, especially if you want the high grade/class rank you will need for ortho. I just checked out the instate tuition at UF and it's more than 28k difference PER YEAR (i.e. about 120K after 4 years + interest). I just don't understand how people can second guess these kinds of easy decisions...Man I'd so gladly take any instater's acceptance if I could 🙁

I am always get a good chuckle when I see people describe dental school like this. I am sure glad it isn't!

But yes, it really should be an easy decision to go to Florida.

enamorvssinful · Jan 21, 2014

Ionz · Jan 21, 2014

sacapuntas said:
I am always get a good chuckle when I see people describe dental school like this. I am sure glad it isn't!

But yes, it really should be an easy decision to go to Florida.

In all fairness, this IS SDN and our ability to exaggerate our ECs got us into dental schools in the first place lol let's be honest here haha

sgv · Jan 21, 2014

You won the lottery of over $250,000!

dantemac · Jan 23, 2014

I agree with those advising to save on tuition; loan money is not lottery money!
Penn is a great school, but you can specialize coming from anywhere.

KittySquared · Jan 23, 2014

Shunwei said:
Most predents or dental students have no concept of the value or relevance of money in the real world. To them, it's just a number right now in the student loan column and, coupled with polyanna about what they hope/think they'll be getting (and is ortho still considered 'hot' nowadays?), it's precisely the kind of financial entrapment financial loan institutions want to see.

This is reality. People make very poor financial decisions when ambition and pride outweigh real world knowledge, economy and the future outlook of dentistry as a whole.

gryffindor · Jan 24, 2014

12 years of hanging around SDN... The biggest change has been is the astronomical tuition for dental schools and the explosion of new dental schools and new ortho/pedo programs but the answers are still the same. Cheapest.school.always. UPenn is where you go when someone else foots the bill and doesn't blink at the price tag. Or when you're Ivy obsessed but didn't get into Harvard's dental school.

Silent Cool · Jan 24, 2014

gryffindor said:
12 years of hanging around SDN... The biggest change has been is the astronomical tuition for dental schools and the explosion of new dental schools and new ortho/pedo programs but the answers are still the same. Cheapest.school.always. UPenn is where you go when someone else foots the bill and doesn't blink at the price tag. Or when you're Ivy obsessed but didn't get into Harvard's dental school.

gryff,

where you are, do you see the explosion in ortho programs out in the community? by that I mean, has the increase in grads been noticeable where you are? are new or established orthos having a much harder time of it?

gryffindor · Jan 24, 2014

Silent Cool said:
gryff,

where you are, do you see the explosion in ortho programs out in the community? by that I mean, has the increase in grads been noticeable where you are? are new or established orthos having a much harder time of it?

I have no idea. I don't practice near where I trained for dental or ortho so I don't know much of the younger dental community where I am or what their woes are. I move teeth around, am happy doing it, and go home.

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