UQ-Ochsner 2014

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I overstated something

My last 120 credits have been with a gpa of about 3.75-3.8

I have A's in o-chem 1/2, phys 1/2, chem 1/2
B's in micro, and anatomy 1/2

All these sciences were taken at CC, I'm on a budget and did an AA degree before transferring into my flagship state school to finish a BS (graduating in May)

I would love to go to Australia for med school. It sounds like a great experience and after march I will be able to see where about 30 more grads get matched. I want to go into emergency medicine which is moderately competitive, but if Ross and sgu grads do it all the time I see no reason why uq grads would have trouble.

I would love to hear people's thoughts. Thanks

I would 100% recommend Australia as a place to live/study...check out Griffith and Bond medical schools as they are on the Gold Coast and have a much smaller cohort than does UQ MBBS

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I would 100% recommend Australia as a place to live/study...check out Griffith and Bond medical schools as they are on the Gold Coast and have a much smaller cohort than does UQ MBBS

I actually would recommend UQ over Griffith and Bond. UQ's international reputation is better.
 
Can anyone give me an idea of what mcat/gpa gets you into uq-ochsner?

I have had a couple interviews at DO schools I would rather not go to. But I will drop the $2000 deposit if they call me. I'm trying to figure out WAMC at UQ-Ochsner for January 2015 so I can save my cash if the odds are good.

I'm a 26 yom
-30 MCAT
-3.2 CGPA/SGPA (4.0 in last 120 credits)
-Non traditional. Working full time throughout college
-3 years volunteer EMTB
-6 years professional paramedic/firefighter
-international travel and volunteerism experience
-adjunct faculty at cc paramedic program
-fluent in Spanish (not urm)
-excellent lors from profs and md

There is no data out there on what a competitive candidate looks like. Am I competitive?

Your extracurriculars, volunteer work, jobs, languages, LORs, etc., practically mean nothing when you're applying to medical school.

It 100% comes down to MCAT and GPA. Your MCAT is fine for UQ. The cohort average is ~30 every year.
 
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I actually would recommend UQ over Griffith and Bond. UQ's international reputation is better.

Those other schools are on the Gold Coast, though, which is a huge advantage. I'm much rather be over there than in Brisbane, and I think Brisbane is great. Much smaller class size as well. I am not sure about how those schools are run but I cannot imagine them having a worse administration than UQs.

Reputation and prestige in the end is about good enough for a bag of popcorn.
 
@premdboy:

You are plenty competitive enough. Pretty much everything Phloston had to say I agree with as well. I do not agree that going to Bond or Griffith is an equivalent (let alone better) choice. Yes, prestige of an international school matters much less than it does for a US school (at least for residency, there are other reasons why it may become more important in your future career, but those are reasonably negligible for the purposes of this discussion). However, you will get asked on your residency interview why you went to the school you did. At a minimum the UQ-O program gives you much better talking points. Additionally, you will NOT be getting the same quality of LoR's from a program other than UQ-O. These are absolutely vital to your application. Many programs even flat out say that they will not give you much consideration if you do not have clinical experience (and shadowing/observerships do not count) in the US or LoR from US physicians. It is an undeniable reality that coming from a foreign school will automatically make it harder for you to get a residency. Not having US clinical experience or US letters of rec will make that substantially worse. Additionally, if you want a residency at an academic medical center you will (with rare exception) need a department chair letter, which you will also not be able to get from Bond or Griffith. This is not to say it is impossible to get a good residency at an academic center from non-UQ Aussie SoM's. But it will, without question, be significantly more difficult for very real and tangible reasons.

As a side note, EM is getting more competitive these days.
 
I was referring more to aspects of the program like Teamwork in Action, Scholarship of Research, Honours, Rural Rotation/Medicine in Society, etc. where UQ just tries to steal the intellectual property of students and force students into pointless endeavors to build up the UQ brand

You really don't have any idea what you are talking about, do you? Everything any university program does is and should be done with the intent of improving the brand of the university. Why on earth wouldn't a uni want to build brand image? And things like scholarship of research and MiS are somehow using the "free labor" of UQ students so that UQ can steal their intellectual property? What on earth are you smoking? What are they stealing? The crappy little research project that you submitted? Or somehow submitting it as a letter to the editor for publication under the UQ brand and stealing all your credit? MiS rotation is different from any other rotation how exactly? US med schools have rural/underserved rotations too. And in Australia it makes even more sense to do that, given how much rural there is in Aus. Yeah, I agree TIA was a stupid waste of time. But that is because the MBBS degree is still classed as an undergrad course and we were thus forced to work with other first year undergrads. Oh yeah, and that was by the School of Health Sciences, not the SoM. I cannot fathom what sort of twisted logic you are using to think that TIA and MiS (let alone the others) are in any way "steal[ing] the intellectual property of students...etc". TIA was a waste of time, but I actually got a lot out of my MiS rotation.

And now you are giving advice about Griffith and Bond with literally no idea what the salient differences are for someone trying to pursue a US residency (which is kind of what the UQ-O program is all about). If you want to practice in Australia, I have always recommended doing the traditional 4 year program, not UQ-O. You may have a point in recommending Griffith or Bond for someone who's desire is to stay in Aus. But you have no relevant knowledge or understanding for someone interested in the UQ-O program. All you have is some butthurt at UQ (justified or not) and the perspective of a traditional international student that has almost zero relevance to the Ochsner aspect of things.
 
@premdboy:



As a side note, EM is getting more competitive these days.

I have heard about that trend before, but do you think it is going to be out of the realm of possibility for a UQ-O grad? I understand I will need to do some elective rotations and get good scores and LORs, but does UQ-O preclude you from anything but IM, FP, and Peds?

Another question about residency: do you think a UQ-O grad gets seen as an "in-state" grad at residency programs in Louisiana? I have heard that the NY/Tel aviv Uni graduates get some preferential treatment in residency matching, maybe this is the case in Louisiana as the purpose of the partnership is to increase the number of docs in Louisiana. Wishful thinking I know (LSU has 3 EM residencies)

As for what you said about getting residency back in the USA, I agree with you that UQ-O is the best option in Oz, but I will also apply to U Sydney because it has the name recognition and I have heard about their grads matching in the NRMP, but at 10K more per year, it hardly seems worth it.
 
You really don't have any idea what you are talking about, do you? Everything any university program does is and should be done with the intent of improving the brand of the university. Why on earth wouldn't a uni want to build brand image? And things like scholarship of research and MiS are somehow using the "free labor" of UQ students so that UQ can steal their intellectual property? What on earth are you smoking? What are they stealing? The crappy little research project that you submitted? Or somehow submitting it as a letter to the editor for publication under the UQ brand and stealing all your credit? MiS rotation is different from any other rotation how exactly? US med schools have rural/underserved rotations too. And in Australia it makes even more sense to do that, given how much rural there is in Aus. Yeah, I agree TIA was a stupid waste of time. But that is because the MBBS degree is still classed as an undergrad course and we were thus forced to work with other first year undergrads. Oh yeah, and that was by the School of Health Sciences, not the SoM. I cannot fathom what sort of twisted logic you are using to think that TIA and MiS (let alone the others) are in any way "steal[ing] the intellectual property of students...etc". TIA was a waste of time, but I actually got a lot out of my MiS rotation.

And now you are giving advice about Griffith and Bond with literally no idea what the salient differences are for someone trying to pursue a US residency (which is kind of what the UQ-O program is all about). If you want to practice in Australia, I have always recommended doing the traditional 4 year program, not UQ-O. You may have a point in recommending Griffith or Bond for someone who's desire is to stay in Aus. But you have no relevant knowledge or understanding for someone interested in the UQ-O program. All you have is some butthurt at UQ (justified or not) and the perspective of a traditional international student that has almost zero relevance to the Ochsner aspect of things.

I guess I was imagining things when my preceptors told me themselves they found the health projects to be pointless. At least they all love how I show up to work every day in my tin-foil hat. I love how you comment on the system here even though you haven't even been out here for Years 3 and 4.

I don't think it really even matters much to the US if you attended UQ-Ochsner or you went to Bond of Griffith so long as you have the scores and you're willing to do all the nonsense to stay 'competitive' for the particular residency
 
I have heard about that trend before, but do you think it is going to be out of the realm of possibility for a UQ-O grad? I understand I will need to do some elective rotations and get good scores and LORs, but does UQ-O preclude you from anything but IM, FP, and Peds?

Another question about residency: do you think a UQ-O grad gets seen as an "in-state" grad at residency programs in Louisiana? I have heard that the NY/Tel aviv Uni graduates get some preferential treatment in residency matching, maybe this is the case in Louisiana as the purpose of the partnership is to increase the number of docs in Louisiana. Wishful thinking I know (LSU has 3 EM residencies)

As for what you said about getting residency back in the USA, I agree with you that UQ-O is the best option in Oz, but I will also apply to U Sydney because it has the name recognition and I have heard about their grads matching in the NRMP, but at 10K more per year, it hardly seems worth it.

No, nothing at all precluding you. There are classmates of mine doing EM interviews this month.

As for being treated as "in state" - no, not really. You do, for obvious reasons, have a much better shot at Ochsner residencies (or much worse, depending on how your perform and act as a professional).

As for U Syd - I can't comment off the top of my head. I don't know what their match numbers are like, and in any case they'd be pretty skewed because it would likely be a self selected group that applies for the match anyways. I cannot say it with the kind of confidence I'd normally like to, but I'd be willing to bet that the $10k isn't worth it.
 
I guess I was imagining things when my preceptors told me themselves they found the health projects to be pointless. At least they all love how I show up to work every day in my tin-foil hat. I love how you comment on the system here even though you haven't even been out here for Years 3 and 4.

I don't think it really even matters much to the US if you attended UQ-Ochsner or you went to Bond of Griffith so long as you have the scores and you're willing to do all the nonsense to stay 'competitive' for the particular residency


Pointless is entirely different than the claim you were trying to make - that it was about "stealing intellectual property" off the backs of the slave labor that is students. You got called out on that by Pitman and then came up with a BS post-hoc claim to try and defend your ridiculous statement. And now you completely change the statement again. It doesn't matter what your preceptors told you, and your comment - and why I said you don't have a clue what you are talking about - has nothing to do with whether the assignments are pointless or not. I already agreed with you that TIA was pretty pointless. Scholarship in research was also reasonably pointless, but less so. But that has nothing to do with your outlandish claim of "stealing intellectual property." And I get to comment on the system there because the topics you specifically referenced I did as well - don't forget that I was in Australia for Years 1 & 2 (when I did TIA) and that I have the same rotations and assessments as you, even though I do them here. What's truly rich is that you are commenting about US residencies and the system there without having been here nor applying for a US residency. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Case in point, what you think about what matters in terms of UQ-O vs Bond or Griffith, you really have no idea what you are talking about and I already outlined why. All that "nonsense" to stay competitive is something that the Ochsner side of things offers that is not available at other Aussie SoM's. And those aspects are not at all trivial.
 
I didn't change my statement at all. He was talking along the lines of QLD Health whereas I was directing my comments more specifically to UQ.

I'm not saying those matters are trivial but to an international student going to Australia, aspects of the experience such as quality of life have significant meaning. If you're a drone whose sole focus is on prestige/money/reputation, then sure, Go to Ochsner.

And since those schools don't churn out as many students aiming to practice in America you cannot reliably say that Ochsner is better---(in fact there's a guy from USydney on here who received a good residency in the US without needing to do all the work you claim)---even if it it specifically designed to get people back to America/steal their money.
 
I didn't change my statement at all. He was talking along the lines of QLD Health whereas I was directing my comments more specifically to UQ.

I'm not saying those matters are trivial but to an international student going to Australia, aspects of the experience such as quality of life have significant meaning. If you're a drone whose sole focus is on prestige/money/reputation, then sure, Go to Ochsner.

And since those schools don't churn out as many students aiming to practice in America you cannot reliably say that Ochsner is better---(in fact there's a guy from USydney on here who received a good residency in the US without needing to do all the work you claim)---even if it it specifically designed to get people back to America/steal their money.

Seriously?

qldman: "I've just found that UQ is particularly egregious when it comes to pumping students for as much free labour as can be extracted.."

pitman: "There is no free labor -- it actually costs hospitals (and thus UQ) to clinically train the students."

qldman: "I was referring more to aspects of the program like Teamwork in Action, Scholarship of Research, Honours, Rural Rotation/Medicine in Society, etc. where UQ just tries to steal the intellectual property of students and force students into pointless endeavors to build up the UQ brand"

qldman: "I guess I was imagining things when my preceptors told me themselves they found the health projects to be pointless"

[emphasis mine]

So, how do we go from "pumping students for free labor" to " UQ tries to steal the intellectual property of students..." to "they found the projects to be pointless" and that isn't changing your statement? Just stop digging, put down the shovel, and admit for a change that you are just spouting off nonsense because you don't like UQ (which is fine for you not to like UQ, and totally fine for you to state that opinion, but not to blather on inanely like you have been about other things which you have no idea nor make any sense).

"If you're a drone whose sole focus is on prestige/money/reputation, then sure, Go to Ochsner."

How about "if you are interested in maximizing your chances at securing a US residency?" You know, the entire point of the program and literally exactly what was being asked about? Trying to not-so-slyly make this about "quality of life," greed, and status is ridiculous. This is about what will maximize your chances at a US residency. Across the board, going foreign immediately makes that harder. Certain programs (none in Australia that I know of) make that particularly worse. UQ-O is reasonably likely to be better than the average international program for those people interested in returning to the US for residency. I'm sure you could go to a hack school in SouthEast Asia for 1/3 the cost that gives you free massages and individual professors every day, and that still wouldn't be relevant to the discussion of whether it will help you get a US residency. Once again, precisely what this thread is about and precisely what premdboy asked.

Perhaps to you the 4 years of med school and how much fun and happiness you had during them are the only thing that matter. For most rational people that is absolutely a consideration, that is absolutely secondary to the entire rest of their lives and careers.

"And since those schools don't churn out as many students aiming to practice in America you cannot reliably say that Ochsner is better"

First off, I have said innumerable times that there is no hard data to definitively say that the UQ-O program is better at getting foreign grads to US residency. However, in the absence of stronger evidence, weaker lines of evidence converging on and supporting the plausibility of the claim is reasonable (you know, those pesky principles of evidence you don't like because they don't let you blather on with your whinge fest pity party commenting). And, quite frankly, by design a program specifically geared to get you back to the US will be better at doing that than a program that isn't.

"in fact there's a guy from USydney on here who received a good residency in the US without needing to do all the work you claim"

Wow. Totally blew me away with that one. That one anecdote just completely destroyed everything I've said. Such as:

"This is not to say it is impossible to get a good residency at an academic center from non-UQ Aussie SoM's. But it will, without question, be significantly more difficult for very real and tangible reasons."

Oh, maybe it didn't actually conflict with anything I've said at all.

It actually saddens me that someone who has such poverty in critical thinking, lack of regard for the principles of rational and evidence based discourse, and feels the desire to make his own negative experience into a pity party for others when your experience is minimally relevant is soon to be a physician. I know it happens all the time, but it is just sad to be reminded of it.
 
Seriously?

qldman: "I've just found that UQ is particularly egregious when it comes to pumping students for as much free labour as can be extracted.."

pitman: "There is no free labor -- it actually costs hospitals (and thus UQ) to clinically train the students."

qldman: "I was referring more to aspects of the program like Teamwork in Action, Scholarship of Research, Honours, Rural Rotation/Medicine in Society, etc. where UQ just tries to steal the intellectual property of students and force students into pointless endeavors to build up the UQ brand"

qldman: "I guess I was imagining things when my preceptors told me themselves they found the health projects to be pointless"

[emphasis mine]

So, how do we go from "pumping students for free labor" to " UQ tries to steal the intellectual property of students..." to "they found the projects to be pointless" and that isn't changing your statement? Just stop digging, put down the shovel, and admit for a change that you are just spouting off nonsense because you don't like UQ (which is fine for you not to like UQ, and totally fine for you to state that opinion, but not to blather on inanely like you have been about other things which you have no idea nor make any sense).

"If you're a drone whose sole focus is on prestige/money/reputation, then sure, Go to Ochsner."

How about "if you are interested in maximizing your chances at securing a US residency?" You know, the entire point of the program and literally exactly what was being asked about? Trying to not-so-slyly make this about "quality of life," greed, and status is ridiculous. This is about what will maximize your chances at a US residency. Across the board, going foreign immediately makes that harder. Certain programs (none in Australia that I know of) make that particularly worse. UQ-O is reasonably likely to be better than the average international program for those people interested in returning to the US for residency. I'm sure you could go to a hack school in SouthEast Asia for 1/3 the cost that gives you free massages and individual professors every day, and that still wouldn't be relevant to the discussion of whether it will help you get a US residency. Once again, precisely what this thread is about and precisely what premdboy asked.

Perhaps to you the 4 years of med school and how much fun and happiness you had during them are the only thing that matter. For most rational people that is absolutely a consideration, that is absolutely secondary to the entire rest of their lives and careers.

"And since those schools don't churn out as many students aiming to practice in America you cannot reliably say that Ochsner is better"

First off, I have said innumerable times that there is no hard data to definitively say that the UQ-O program is better at getting foreign grads to US residency. However, in the absence of stronger evidence, weaker lines of evidence converging on and supporting the plausibility of the claim is reasonable (you know, those pesky principles of evidence you don't like because they don't let you blather on with your whinge fest pity party commenting). And, quite frankly, by design a program specifically geared to get you back to the US will be better at doing that than a program that isn't.

"in fact there's a guy from USydney on here who received a good residency in the US without needing to do all the work you claim"

Wow. Totally blew me away with that one. That one anecdote just completely destroyed everything I've said. Such as:

"This is not to say it is impossible to get a good residency at an academic center from non-UQ Aussie SoM's. But it will, without question, be significantly more difficult for very real and tangible reasons."

Oh, maybe it didn't actually conflict with anything I've said at all.

It actually saddens me that someone who has such poverty in critical thinking, lack of regard for the principles of rational and evidence based discourse, and feels the desire to make his own negative experience into a pity party for others when your experience is minimally relevant is soon to be a physician. I know it happens all the time, but it is just sad to be reminded of it.

I think you tend to misinterpret my statements. I'm starting to think I am talking to Pinsky himself here...or perhaps you're his second-in-command....or maybe even the man is paying you off with the promise of a 'competitive specialty' in America. Either way I am certain he's following these threads with money bags in his eyes.

The fact is people have gone to medical school in Australia for decades and have been able to practice/gain residencies in the US---but then all a sudden a greedy third party comes up with a money grab design to ultimately put an even bigger strain on an already broken residency system in the US and now we're being told it's the way to go for people going to Australia to med school.

My statement about the free labour is a belief that many current UQ students share---there's simply a lot of dissatisfied students. I don't need to provide evidence based medicine for my beliefs. You could summon nearly any current student at UQ and I guarantee you he/she will share my views on the school moreso than yours.
 
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I think you tend to misinterpret my statements. I'm starting to think I am talking to Pinsky himself here...or perhaps you're his second-in-command....or maybe even the man is paying you off with the promise of a 'competitive specialty' in America. Either way I am certain he's following these threads with money bags in his eyes.

The fact is people have gone to medical school in Australia for decades and have been able to practice/gain residencies in the US---but then all a sudden a greedy third party comes up with a money grab design to ultimately put an even bigger strain on an already broken residency system in the US and now we're being told it's the way to go for people going to Australia to med school.

My statement about the free labour is a belief that many current UQ students share---there's simply a lot of dissatisfied students. I don't need to provide evidence based medicine for my beliefs. You could summon nearly any current student at UQ and I guarantee you he/she will share my views on the school moreso than yours.

qldman is just being the sort of douche you will find as a minority among your Australian classmates. There will be students who will look down on you as a US student in Australia. They will look down on you because you couldn't get into the US for medical school and they will look at you as just rich kids who bought their way into medical school. They probably think you are increasing their class sizes and may scapegoat "the Americans". Remember these people are definitely in the minority, but they will exist, the best you can do is ace your classes and show them up by getting a good residency.
 
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How is the UQ program any more of a "money grab" than any other non-subsidized med program? The tuition is literally the same at UQ or less than most other Aussie and American out-of-state/private school tuition. These schools are looking to make profits, of course, that's the only reason that any schools would offer spaces to international students in the first place. They get their money, and in return someone gets a medical education that they would not otherwise have the opportunity to get. It's a win-win situation. I don't see why you like to demonize UQ so much, their tuition is on par with every other school, their international reputation is certainly above average, and the quality of their medical education is also regarded as such. There are no residencies in Australia or elsewhere that are turning down UQ students because of their supposed "diploma mill" or "money grabbing" med school system that churns out these alleged poorly educated students, it just isn't happening, because quite frankly, the education is just as good as you will get at almost any other med school. No program is perfect, and all of them will have their respective drawbacks and benefits.

As a relevant personal experience, I am friends with the head of gastroenterology at a major health sciences center where I live, he has interviewed prospective residents for over a decade, and has also previously acted as the assistant dean of undergraduate medicine at a prominent research university where I live. I tactfully got into a conversation with him about this before I told him I was even applying to medical schools, to avoid potential bias in his response. He mentioned UQ by name when I shifted the topic to IMGs, and had nothing but good things to say about their applicants. He has interviewed many UQ graduates, and worked with several as residents and said that their education is on par with north american medical schools and on average their clinical skills going into PGY1 are actually slightly better than most North American med school graduates where the focus tends to be more on background knowledge.

Not to mention the fact that as far as domestic Australian med students go, UQ is actually the most difficult med school to get into in the entire country. You would think for a med school with such sub-par educational practices, Australia's best and brightest, who are given the pick of the litter, would look elsewhere.

As far as your complaints about "free labor", it seems that you are just complaining about higher education in general rather than UQ in particular. Any undergraduate thesis course, master's by research, or PhD student is going to do a lot of b|tch work in the lab, and they aren't going to get paid diddly squat for it. And at the end of the day if any significant scientific contributions are made, their supervisor will take much of the credit for it. In any professional medical program, including medicine, nursing, physiotherapy, you are going to spend COUNTLESS hours doing "slave labor" in the clinic or in the hospital for zero pay whatsoever, this is the status quo at any school and is certainly not unique to UQ. This is the only way you are going to get enough experience to gain the competency to be deserving of a salary compensation in your field. Throwing around terms like "slave labor" is a little ridiculous and sensationalistic.

Sidefx isn't it true though that the only reason UQ is the most difficult is because it is one of the few that still offers direct high school entry into medicine? Sydney and Melbourne and ANU which are widely considered top universities in Australia are all graduate entry now. As a result, the brightest high school students who know they want medicine and don't want to spend 3-4 years completing an undergraduate degree that they don't want are going to apply to UQ as it is the best among the schools that offer high school entry?
 
How is the UQ program any more of a "money grab" than any other non-subsidized med program? The tuition is literally the same at UQ or less than most other Aussie and American out-of-state/private school tuition. These schools are looking to make profits, of course, that's the only reason that any schools would offer spaces to international students in the first place. They get their money, and in return someone gets a medical education that they would not otherwise have the opportunity to get. It's a win-win situation. I don't see why you like to demonize UQ so much, their tuition is on par with every other school, their international reputation is certainly above average, and the quality of their medical education is also regarded as such. There are no residencies in Australia or elsewhere that are turning down UQ students because of their supposed "diploma mill" or "money grabbing" med school system that churns out these alleged poorly educated students, it just isn't happening, because quite frankly, the education is just as good as you will get at almost any other med school. No program is perfect, and all of them will have their respective drawbacks and benefits.

As a relevant personal experience, I am friends with the head of gastroenterology at a major health sciences center where I live, he has interviewed prospective residents for over a decade, and has also previously acted as the assistant dean of undergraduate medicine at a prominent research university where I live. I tactfully got into a conversation with him about this before I told him I was even applying to medical schools, to avoid potential bias in his response. He mentioned UQ by name when I shifted the topic to IMGs, and had nothing but good things to say about their applicants. He has interviewed many UQ graduates, and worked with several as residents and said that their education is on par with north american medical schools and on average their clinical skills going into PGY1 are actually slightly better than most North American med school graduates where the focus tends to be more on background knowledge.

Not to mention the fact that as far as domestic Australian med students go, UQ is actually the most difficult med school to get into in the entire country. You would think for a med school with such sub-par educational practices, Australia's best and brightest, who are given the pick of the litter, would look elsewhere.

As far as your complaints about "free labor", it seems that you are just complaining about higher education in general rather than UQ in particular. Any undergraduate thesis course, master's by research, or PhD student is going to do a lot of b|tch work in the lab, and they aren't going to get paid diddly squat for it. And at the end of the day if any significant scientific contributions are made, their supervisor will take much of the credit for it. In any professional medical program, including medicine, nursing, physiotherapy, you are going to spend COUNTLESS hours doing "slave labor" in the clinic or in the hospital for zero pay whatsoever, this is the status quo at any school and is certainly not unique to UQ. This is the only way you are going to get enough experience to gain the competency to be deserving of a salary compensation in your field. Throwing around terms like "slave labor" is a little ridiculous and sensationalistic.


I didn't once claim the students at ochsner are inferior or anything even remotely that way...I'm not sure why you are putting words into my mouth. I've pretty much always felt that very few Australians could get into a US school relative to the North Americans who gain entry to Australian schools. I don't look at groups of people as being smarter or less intelligent--I only look at a man as a man and go from there and form my beliefs.

I call Ochsner a money grab because it is--it was originally formed by a third party as a profit making enterprise---and it began because it saw an opening in the market---namely that Australia is a desirable place to be--but nobody is taking into account the internship crisis in Australia and the fact that new residencies still are not being opened up, and yet several new medical schools have opened doors in the US---my whole point is that HIGHER EDUCATION is a scam, and bigger perpetrators of fraud than investment banks.

If you ACTUALLY ATTEND UQ you would see what I mean. This institution makes too many mistakes and borders on carelessness with regards to how it manages its students. I have had preceptors outright tell me that they feel what UQ is doing is unethical (taking on increasing numbers of students when it knows the hospital system can only take on so many students and interns) and most agree that an entire generation of future physicians is going to be permanently screwed. The same thing has been going on since 2000 for Millenials in America--there's no jobs for anyone our generation. My whole point all along has been that you need to be smart about any decision with higher education. Ochsner is feeding people what they want to hear and once it has students locked into the program it is extremely rigid and un-accomodating.

You can call me anything you want but you'll see what happens when you graduate.
 
"Sidefx isn't it true though that the only reason UQ is the most difficult is because it is one of the few that still offers direct high school entry into medicine?"

I don't know if that has historically been true, but it is my understanding that this is no longer the case, particularly with the shift to the MD degree, since the twosie program will be no more at that point.

"my whole point is that HIGHER EDUCATION is a scam, and bigger perpetrators of fraud than investment banks."

Awesome. Then go whinge about how crappy higher education is. That has nothing specifically relevant to do with Ochsner, Ochsner as it relates to other international schools, or anything else people on this thread are actually interested about. If people are already keen to go into higher education and keen to do so internationally, then go all the way back to how much of a scam higher education is has kind of missed the boat, dontcha think? Which is why I have consistently pointed out exactly that in all of your commentary and told you to take your pity party whinge fest elsewhere. It simply isn't relevant to the concerns specific to this thread.

"I have had preceptors outright tell me that they feel what UQ is doing is unethical (taking on increasing numbers of students when it knows the hospital system can only take on so many students and interns) and most agree that an entire generation of future physicians is going to be permanently screwed."

And you know what they say about opinions right? Just because a whole bunch of people think something is true, doesn't make it so. And when you start making tangible real-world claims like that, you need data to back that up. And your claims about class sizes, a generation of physicians getting screwed, yadda yadda not only have no data to support them, but have data against them. Which I have cited in a previous comment on this thread the last time you tried to trot that one out. Yammering about how your preceptors and attendings share the same evidence free thoughts is nothing more than a Fox News style circle jerk in an echo chamber. So instead of citing the amazingly draw dropping and irrefutable "preceptors outright telling you" something, try and use some actual data. It will give you the ability to seem like less of a whiny, butthurt buffoon. Because otherwise I have the exact same high quality data to support you being a douche right here on this very thread.
 
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Your assertion that biostats and epi are central to clinical practice is a Paul Farmery ideal that many progressive medical students here share...
I'm happy to hear that there are students there now who even know who Paul Farmer is -- I tried unsuccessfully to get the UQMS to invite him for E.S. Meyers, but everyone else on the Exec responded, "Who's that? We need someone with name recognition"!@#$
 
Sidefx isn't it true though that the only reason UQ is the most difficult is because it is one of the few that still offers direct high school entry into medicine?...As a result, the brightest high school students who know they want medicine and don't want to spend 3-4 years completing an undergraduate degree that they don't want are going to apply to UQ as it is the best among the schools that offer high school entry?
Certainly the more school-leavers there are, the more exclusive the SoM can be with any remaining grad entry spots, but the high quality of school leavers being accepted doesn't explain why UQ attracts grad entry students with the highest GAMSAT scores (while removing the interview helped raise those scores a bit).
 
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I call Ochsner a money grab because it is--it was originally formed by a third party as a profit making enterprise---and it began because it saw an opening in the market---namely that Australia is a desirable place to be--but nobody is taking into account the internship crisis in Australia and the fact that new residencies still are not being opened up, and yet several new medical schools have opened doors in the US---my whole point is that HIGHER EDUCATION is a scam, and bigger perpetrators of fraud than investment banks.
I don't have firsthand knowledge of the motives behind the formation of Ochsner Health before it became a major trainer of Tulane and LSU medical students, but I have had several discussions with (former Head) Wilko and other insiders during the negotiations over UQ-O, and I think it'd be a stretch to claim that the motive was profit -- at least on UQ's part -- any more than finance becomes integral to any new major undertaking by a uni (is Cornell similarly profiteering with its Qatar campus?), or any more than the surge in int'l students from the 1990s can be said to have been motivated by profit when it began in order to financially save near-broke schools.

Wilko came in wanting to build on UQ's international reputation and to make UQ into a net supplier of docs to other countries, and as a result, Ochsner learned about UQ and approached him. UQ admin embraced the idea because 1) it's novel/groundbreaking, something unis love; 2) it furthers Wilko's/UQ's vision; 3) all else being equal, it serves to help maintain much-needed int'l funds while reducing the main sticking point with training int'ls -- getting them clinically trained when there are arguably too many domestic students to train clinically in Qld, and the pressure (er, perceived responsibility) to getting them all jobs after training them (UQ-O grads were always expected to do residency in the US, and the program has tightened up this expectation since the first cohort).

I guess if you see such activity universally as profiteering in some sense, or a scam, then I grant that that can be a valid cynical view. But by admitting to the non-uniqueness of it, your original statement fingering UQ for profit-seeking doesn't add weight to any indictment of it in particular.
 
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Certainly the more school-leavers there are, the more exclusive the SoM can be with any remaining grad entry spots, but the high quality of school leavers being accepted doesn't explain why UQ attracts grad entry students with the highest GAMSAT scores (while removing the interview helped raise those scores a bit).

I've asked a few Aussies why UQ is most competitive to get into as post-grad, and they said it's because everyone wants the good weather up here. I really do think it's that simple. Brisbane is south as Ft. Lauderdale is north.
 
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I don't have firsthand knowledge of the motives behind the formation of Ochsner Health before it became a major trainer of Tulane and LSU medical students, but I have had several discussions with (former Head) Wilko and other insiders during the negotiations over UQ-O, and I think it'd be a stretch to claim that the motive was profit -- at least on UQ's part -- any more than finance becomes integral to any new major undertaking by a uni (is Cornell similarly profiteering with its Qatar campus?), or any more than the surge in int'l students from the 1990s can be said to have been motivated by profit when it began in order to financially save near-broke schools.

Wilko came in wanting to build on UQ's international reputation and to make UQ into a net supplier of docs to other countries, and as a result, Ochsner learned about UQ and approached him. UQ admin embraced the idea because 1) it's novel/groundbreaking, something unis love; 2) it furthers Wilko's/UQ's vision; 3) all else being equal, it serves to help maintain much-needed int'l funds while reducing the main sticking point with training int'ls -- getting them clinically trained when there are arguably too many domestic students to train clinically in Qld, and the pressure (er, perceived responsibility) to getting them all jobs after training them (UQ-O grads were always expected to do residency in the US, and the program has tightened up this expectation since the first cohort).

I guess if you see such activity universally as profiteering in some sense, or a scam, then I grant that that can be a valid cynical view. But by admitting to the non-uniqueness of it, your original statement fingering UQ for profit-seeking doesn't add weight to any indictment of it in particular.

It's not really a cynical view. It's a statement of reality.

Just a decade ago UQ had not even half as many students as it currently has, and the number of graduates of Australian medical schools was around 50% that of what it is now. Students got internships and got residencies as they wanted. No medical students were worried about anything. Americans and Canadians have been going over here for a long time (decades) for schooling and without incident.

Then all of a sudden, coinciding with a worldwide financial recession, and universities going under, UQ decides to rebrand itself as a 'global medical university' and a third party in the US (and one of the largest private providers in a state hit worse than perhaps any other, a.k.a. a place where free labour from medical students/intern can be manipulated) coincidentally joins the game to make more for itself...problem is neither has addressed the grim future for medical graduates in both countries, so in reality instead of shoring up a need (e.g. rural medicine in Australia or opening new residency programs in the US to accommodate the increased number of students) all that is happening is that the institutions have exacerbated all of the existing problems. It's getting to so bad that people are now proposing medical students should need to beg for internships

I didn't think this would be so complicated to understand though. There's a host of publications on the university taking over investment banks as the largest purveyors of fraud. I would be willing to bet the number of administrative staff at UQ MBBS has grown by well over 500% from 2001 to 2014.

And in regards to Wilkinson, why do you think he's gone from UQ???? Think about that. He was about as good for the school as locusts in a field.
 
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It's not really a cynical view. It's a statement of reality.

Just a decade ago UQ had not even half as many students as it currently has, and the number of graduates of Australian medical schools was around 50% that of what it is now. Students got internships and got residencies as they wanted. No medical students were worried about anything. Americans and Canadians have been going over here for a long time (decades) for schooling and without incident.

Then all of a sudden, coinciding with a worldwide financial recession, and universities going under, UQ decides to rebrand itself as a 'global medical university' and a third party in the US (and one of the largest private providers in a state hit worse than perhaps any other, a.k.a. a place where free labour from medical students/intern can be manipulated) coincidentally joins the game to make more for itself...problem is neither has addressed the grim future for medical graduates in both countries, so in reality instead of shoring up a need (e.g. rural medicine in Australia or opening new residency programs in the US to accommodate the increased number of students) all that is happening is that the institutions have exacerbated all of the existing problems. It's getting to so bad that people are now proposing medical students should need to beg for internships

I didn't think this would be so complicated to understand though. There's a host of publications on the university taking over investment banks as the largest purveyors of fraud. I would be willing to bet the number of administrative staff at UQ MBBS has grown by well over 500% from 2001 to 2014.

And in regards to Wilkinson, why do you think he's gone from UQ???? Think about that. He was about as good for the school as locusts in a field.

Well if Oschner students don't go for internships in Australia, whats wrong with UQ-O. You seem concerned that too many medical students are going for internships in Australia, well thats got nothing to do with UQ-O only something to do with the dramatic increasing of Australian students being accepted into Australian medical schools.
 
Well if Oschner students don't go for internships in Australia, whats wrong with UQ-O. You seem concerned that too many medical students are going for internships in Australia, well thats got nothing to do with UQ-O only something to do with the dramatic increasing of Australian students being accepted into Australian medical schools.

There's nothing wrong with UQ Ochsner at all. I have not read anything bad about the program nor its students. The only thing I don't like about it is how it's forcing you to return to the US instead of giving you both options.
 
There's nothing wrong with UQ Ochsner at all. I have not read anything bad about the program nor its students. The only thing I don't like about it is how it's forcing you to return to the US instead of giving you both options.
But don't you not want so many people in internships? By forcing people to go to the US, you are reducing the overcrowding of Australian internships which you said was your major concern.
 
But don't you not want so many people in internships? By forcing people to go to the US, you are reducing the overcrowding of Australian internships which you said was your major concern.

No, that's not how it should be, and that's not how I think. That sort of thinking is what has caused this mess though-universities deciding to pass the burden onto the individuals, the students.

What should be happening is that there should be more intern and residency positions opening up to account for the fact more students are being trained--after all, who goes to medical school to not practice afterwards? It's disingenuous to take students and then not offer them positions afterwards.

What i don't like about Ochsner is that it's forcing you into the US and even in the US you'll be viewed at as an IMG. So basically you're getting the worst of both worlds. That's just my opinion, though, man.

So, no, I don't like the fact future doctors of our generation are being cornered and powerless because of the greed of others.
 
It's not really a cynical view. It's a statement of reality.
Whether reflecting reality or not, it is a cynical view. There's nothing wrong with cynicism -- I am very cynical myself -- but yours here is being fed by misinformation.

Just a decade ago UQ had not even half as many students as it currently has, and the number of graduates of Australian medical schools was around 50% that of what it is now. Students got internships and got residencies as they wanted. No medical students were worried about anything. Americans and Canadians have been going over here for a long time (decades) for schooling and without incident.
You really don't understand the history of med schools here, and I find it truly bizarre that you would rely on some grossly simplistic trends rather than specific knowledge or experience, or even a considered assessment of the many variables and parties involved, in order to support your view. It leads me to question whether your view may have preceded any evidence, and now you're using whatever you can to fill in the evidence that supports it.

No, things were not peachy when there were 50% fewer students, and considering only the effect training growth has on internship choice is myopic -- schools were going bankrupt, the doctor shortages were monumental and growing, and the reliance on foreign-trained docs (particularly from the 3rd World) was creating much backlash. Flinders first went grad explicitly (by their own white papers) because they needed money to survive, when HECS wasn't (still isn't) nearly enough to survive on. UQ followed suit for similar reasons (ref: personal correspondence with Ken Donald, who did much to avoid de-accreditation/bankruptcy). JCU was formed shortly after in order to train rural doctors, and they do a pretty good job at it. Has there since been overshot in attempts to solve the shortages? That's a different question and far more complicated than lends the reflexive response, "Schools are fraudulent profiteers".

Then all of a sudden, coinciding with a worldwide financial recession, and universities going under, UQ decides to rebrand itself as a 'global medical university'...
No, not all of a sudden, and preceding the GFC, though I'm not sure why that timing matters to you -- finances (and reputation) are always relevant, whether or not there is 'profit' or 'scams' or 'fraud' involved.

Wilko was Deputy Head when I started med school, and we worked together on projects towards his stated vision from 2004/5 (e.g., notespool and electives database, both my initiatives, but neither living up to their potential...another long story). And UQ-O was being negotiated long before the GFC! Very simple facts to get straight, if you do your homework.

and a third party in the US (and one of the largest private providers in a state hit worse than perhaps any other, a.k.a. a place where free labour from medical students/intern can be manipulated) coincidentally joins the game to make more for itself...
Not to mention one of the largest clinical trainers in the region even before UQ-O. Ochsner first asked Tulane and LSU (whose students Ochsner was training) if they wanted to be in a partnership (which change gains clout and management control, not riches), and when they were turned down, Ochsner sought UQ.

Again, there is no free labour from med students -- this was discussed earlier. It COSTS money to train med students. As to residents, Ochsner does not require UQ-O to exist as an entity in order to train them.

Probably a good place for me to ask here: what is UQ doing with all its supposed cash profit? Has Wilko pocketed it? UQ admins are buying up coastal real estate? The answer is far more banal -- the med school is still digging itself out of debt.

...problem is neither has addressed the grim future for medical graduates in both countries, so in reality instead of shoring up a need (e.g. rural medicine in Australia or opening new residency programs in the US to accommodate the increased number of students) all that is happening is that the institutions have exacerbated all of the existing problems. It's getting to so bad that people are now proposing medical students should need to beg for internships

Huh? Int'l students help finance Australian unis so that they can get out of debt while also training more domestic students who help relieve doctors shortages. More domestics students are joining rural streams than ever before, thus helping to relieve rural shortages. IMG numbers have been cut by 40% since their peak a few years ago. How? Through increasing domestic student numbers who are subsidized by int'l students, with the bonus that many int'l students stay on with direct knowledge of Australia and Australian medicine, allowing less reliance on taking foreign (particularly from the 3rd World) doctors. If you were instead harping on about what's the correct BALANCE, that would be something else entirely.

I didn't think this would be so complicated to understand though. There's a host of publications on the university taking over investment banks as the largest purveyors of fraud.
What a vague generalization. Generalizations (unqualified and unreferenced at that) do no good when the specifics are all wrong. This is even worse than trying to justify using a study to implement protocol based on EBM when the study has nothing to say about my patient.

And in regards to Wilkinson, why do you think he's gone from UQ???? Think about that. He was about as good for the school as locusts in a field.
Ugh. You clearly have no idea how these things work. If you want to take a stab at something like this, start with getting your history and other facts correct. Start by actually knowing the people involved rather than on random hearsay backed by generalizations which IMO you're relying on as your base to justify a pre-existing cynicism.

I have refrained until now to engage in debate with you in this thread, qldman, because I often do not have firsthand knowledge above and beyond others here to set the facts straight. However, from this topic, I believe Nygbrus is right -- you are getting so many facts wrong that you are way past stating mere opinion. It seems to me that you are stating opinion as though it is fact, but filling in the details with misconstrued and/or extraneous data.
 
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What should be happening is that there should be more intern and residency positions opening up to account for the fact more students are being trained--after all, who goes to medical school to not practice afterwards? It's disingenuous to take students and then not offer them positions afterwards.
This has been happening, in Qld for at least 10 years straight. Much faster than anyone (particularly QHealth and the PMCQ) claimed was possible. I will agree that there has been overshot and that the ramp-up in students has been too fast, and internship spots are being created in spots now that would not have been approved even a few years ago, but given the decentralized system of education/migration/postgrad training, and the resulting tsunami, it is commendable how well the training spots has kept pace with their need. However, I don't see how it's disingenuous not to give jobs to ALL int'l students that are trained. Everyone knows the stakes, and most int'ls who want to stay will continue to stay, and increasingly, that will be determined by merit.
 
This has been happening, in Qld for at least 10 years straight. Much faster than anyone (particularly QHealth and the PMCQ) claimed was possible. I will agree that there has been overshot and that the ramp-up in students has been too fast, and internship spots are being created in spots now that would not have been approved even a few years ago, but given the decentralized system of education/migration/postgrad training, and the resulting tsunami, it is commendable how well the training spots has kept pace with their need. However, I don't see how it's disingenuous not to give jobs to ALL int'l students that are trained. Everyone knows the stakes, and most int'ls who want to stay will continue to stay, and increasingly, that will be determined by merit.

I guess you're right. I'll stop posting here.
 
I guess you're right. I'll stop posting here.
Damn, I hope you're being sarcastic. Don't stop posting, just be more careful with what you claim are facts, or you'll earn the wrath of those who know them better.
 
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Nah it's cool. You actually would know a lot more about the situation than I do. I'm just posting based on what I have seen these 4 years. It's been a rough past few months for me. I don't want to be giving out misinformation.

My honest impression of Wilkinson has been that of a guy whose sole intention is to make as much money as possible for the school with the least amount of concern possible for students. But you're right that I don't have any facts. I'm not really involved with the school in any form outside of the academic setting so I am really only posting as a detached observer. I'm looking at the matter solely in terms of a medical student perspective so other forces aren't really under consideration.

So I think if I do post it will be on lighter matters or at least on matters on which I have more credible information.
 
I've had my issues with Wilko, but profiteering wasn't one of them. I am certain he took seriously his role of improving the SoM's bottom line, as did his predecessor, Uncle Ken, but he's motivated by much more than that, was preoccupied with UQ's international reputation and IMO wanted an honest legacy.

Having said that, it is true that he wasn't nearly as responsive to students as Uncle Ken was (who arguably was TOO responsive), and he was quite good at removing impediments to his authority, including chipping away at the disproportionate -- compared to individual SoM dept heads and virtually all the other Australian med socs -- power traditionally held by the UQMS. Then again, power isn't taken any more than it is given away.
 
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It's not really a cynical view. It's a statement of reality.

Just a decade ago UQ had not even half as many students as it currently has, and the number of graduates of Australian medical schools was around 50% that of what it is now. Students got internships and got residencies as they wanted. No medical students were worried about anything. Americans and Canadians have been going over here for a long time (decades) for schooling and without incident.

Then all of a sudden, coinciding with a worldwide financial recession, and universities going under, UQ decides to rebrand itself as a 'global medical university' and a third party in the US (and one of the largest private providers in a state hit worse than perhaps any other, a.k.a. a place where free labour from medical students/intern can be manipulated) coincidentally joins the game to make more for itself...problem is neither has addressed the grim future for medical graduates in both countries, so in reality instead of shoring up a need (e.g. rural medicine in Australia or opening new residency programs in the US to accommodate the increased number of students) all that is happening is that the institutions have exacerbated all of the existing problems. It's getting to so bad that people are now proposing medical students should need to beg for internships

I didn't think this would be so complicated to understand though. There's a host of publications on the university taking over investment banks as the largest purveyors of fraud. I would be willing to bet the number of administrative staff at UQ MBBS has grown by well over 500% from 2001 to 2014.

And in regards to Wilkinson, why do you think he's gone from UQ???? Think about that. He was about as good for the school as locusts in a field.

(I've been having a lot of trouble with SDN for some reason. I am hoping this posts and sorry if it posts multiple times. I wrote this a few days ago, before the further conversation with Pitman and QLDMan)

Nothing is ever nice and clear cut. As pitman very accurately points out, financial reasons will inevitably be taken into consideration. And they should. It makes no sense to make something that is a priori financially non-viable.

There is an unquestionable physician shortage worldwide and in Australia and the US specifically. How to best address that is certainly up for debate. There is a lot of politics and bureaucracy involved, inevitably rife with stupid decisions and stupid actions. However, many of these actions and decisions are stupid, but make sense within the context of the confines of the political and bureaucratic realities and infrastructure in place. In the US the huge bottleneck in training physicians is GME. Residency spots actually cost more money than they make and the US federal government subsidizes those spots in order to make them exist. There has been a freeze on that subsidy since the mid-90's. There hasn't been the political will in the US to prioritize correctly and actually increase that funding. There has, however, been a mandate (a stupid one) to increase physicians by increasing medical school spots. Now, part of that mandate makes sense - spots increased about 10-15% without a commensurate increase in GME spots and yet we find that until just very recently, every US grad and a large number of foreign grads still managed to match into a residency. So in a very real sense, the action and mandate made sense and began to address the problem. Last year was the first time more than a handful of US grads didn't match. That number was ~500. 500 out of ~21,000 didn't match and still a large number of IMGs matched as well. Last year was the first time in QLD history that essentially every foreign student didn't get a residency and there was a huge clamoring and guess what? Spots were created and people got internships. I know personally a few Canadians who didn't have a spot and then ended up getting one.

So the question is what is the motivation here? Cynical people like yourself seem to think it is some sort of New World Order, Illuminati, conspiracy plot to fleece people of money with a bunch of hook-nosed shadowy figures cackling in delight sitting on a pile of cash. More rational people will realize that it makes sense to attribute actions to stupidity rather than malice. Ultimately, this issue is coming to a head and we essentially have two options - increase the number of GME spots or decrease the number of med school spots. Considering that we are unequivocally in dire need of physicians it seems decidedly stupid to decrease the number of physicians we generate. Is this the best way to address the issue? No. Will people inevitably get screwed over by it? Yes. Would I have done things differently if I were king of the world? Absolutely. But the reality is that people individually are not rational actors and complex systems built by people thus inevitably behave in quirky - and sometimes downright wrong and stupid - ways.

So yeah, it is getting bad. But if you are interested in actually understanding why and having any hope of rationally addressing it, you need to understand the context, history, and reality of it rather than conspiracy mongering and assigning agency to actions that are better ascribed to stupid actions based in a far from perfect complex system. And most certainly the solution is not reverting to some romanticized nostalgic dream of how great things used to be. Because the reality is that it was that state of things that got us here in the first place and it was only good for the limited time that the bottom didn't fall out, just like how a Ponzi scheme is great for a bunch of people until it all falls apart. Which is why listening to the old guard talk about the "golden era" of medicine is a highly biased and self serving account that does not take into account why that golden era failed so miserably.

Not that I would expect you to be willing, let alone able, to engage in actual nuanced conversation about a complex topic using actual historical fact and real data. Your entire post is just dripping with conspiracy mongering stupidity, the same you'd find from the 9/11 conspiracists or Truthers or UFO believers. They also find "sudden coincidences" that to them can only be explained by their conspiracy of choice, neglecting actual contradictory data and clinging desperately to whatever narrative fits their predetermined conclusion, ignoring actual data contradicting integral parts of the conspiracy put up by others. You even close with a wonderfully stereotypical conspiracy trope - the old "just asking a question" with the rhetorical device of leading to one and only one conclusion which is, of course, yours and emphasizing it with 4 questions marks. Why did Wilko leave? I honestly don't know for sure. And yeah, it could be for the reasons you seem to think and wish to imply. But it seems much more likely to me that he left as a result of the admissions scandal that ended up also firing the Chancellor because of rank nepotism rather than anything to do with Ochsner, the cohort size, or anything else. Or the fact that it is not uncommon for heads of large institutions (whether they be corporations or universities or whatever) to leave for other jobs or be horned out because of changes in the political climate. In the absence of evidence, I would actually look for multiple reasons and realize that there are simply much more likely reasons than the one that happens to so conveniently fit my conspiratorial narrative.
 
There's nothing wrong with UQ Ochsner at all. I have not read anything bad about the program nor its students. The only thing I don't like about it is how it's forcing you to return to the US instead of giving you both options.

It seems that SDN is finally working for me. I have a few minutes to address things in order.

Firstly, UQ-O doesn't force you to return to the states. The AMC accredited the program specifically so that we could, hypothetically, be Aussie interns. But more to the point, the absolutely express purpose of the program is to return to the US. That is why people even apply in the first place. And everything we have ever said, and all advice given to prospective students (myself included) is that if you have any a priori knowledge that you would seriously like to stay in Australia to do the traditional program rather than the UQ-O program. I don't understand how you can be upset about a program doing exactly what it is intended to do and billed to do.
 
First off, thank you Pitman. I have been trying to say exactly that over and over - that QLDman has made conclusions before evidence and is cherry picking data to support and asserting opinion as fact all along the way.

But it seems to have finally been resolved to a degree by your chiming in, so thank you.

Now, directly to QLDMan, I want to be very clear that I don't begrudge you and especially with your latest responses about modifying your understanding and commenting tack I applaud you. I think it is important to realize that we can all be wrong and that we can all fall into a rhetorical trap of our own making. What distinguishes someone is when they do finally realize it and admit it, and that takes significant effort and character and I truly believe you deserve kudos for that.

It is always best to look for disconfirming evidence for your thoughts on a matter (any matter). Because there is enough dreck out there to easily support any position if you cherry pick it. But to truly come to the best possible conclusion, demonstrate the validity of your thoughts and concerns, and have the respect and understanding of your audience the best possible tack is to try and disprove yourself to yourself. Look for the arguments others may use to try and prove you wrong and see if they hold up. If they do, you save yourself from making fallacious arguments. If they don't, you can now confidently assert your thoughts.

I'm sorry it has been a rough couple of months for you and that your overall experience has been less than optimal. It is absolutely understandable that this would influence your thoughts as well as your capacity and desire to challenge them. Once again, kudos for ultimately doing so.

I'll add one last bit here since I had a meeting with Dr. Leonardo Seoane, the head of curriculum at Ochsner, just yesterday. We were discussing the med student experience at Ochsner and how it really and truly is vastly superior to the majority of US medical schools. It is difficult to understand this, however, when this is all you know. You take for granted the amazing positives and focus on the negatives. Yet the reality is that in most medical schools in the US (not all, of course) students are not even a secondary consideration but much more towards the end. They do not focus so much on teaching and giving opportunities for learning and hands on experience. Students do a lot of scut work and end up being flies on the wall. The focus is on teaching residents and getting work done, and what little time and resource is left over is then trickled down to the med students. This is not at all dissimilar from the UQ clinical experience either. And it is indeed frustrating and often unfulfilling. At Ochsner, it is very different. There is truly a focus on the student with residents and attendings alike actively making sure you don't do unnecessary scut work, telling you to leave early if you feel like you aren't learning and would benefit more from having a chance to read or even just catch up on sleep, and going out of their way to give you opportunities. (Obviously there are exceptions to this as well, even within Ochsner, but for the most part it is very true). If you are keen, proactive, and care you will be given opportunities unlike anything you would get at the vast majority of teaching institutions. I could regale you with anecdotes until the cows come home, but I will share just one.

In my third year medicine rotation, I was on a very busy service. I really wanted the opportunity to place a central line or do some procedure but we just never managed to do it and often turfed it to IR in the interest of time. But I persisted and kept asking and one day my attending felt I deserved the opportunity. I had been working hard, doing well, and we had a patient - one I had been following for 20 days in the hospital - that needed a central line. We didn't have time to do it. So she asked if I would be willing to stay late to do it. Of course! So she and the upper level resident stayed until past 8pm just so that I could have the opportunity to place the central line. I stuck around, twiddling my thumbs (aka reading) for 90 minutes while they wrapped up everything that needed to be done for the day and then, instead of going home and relaxing after turfing the line to IR, they came and found me and we sat down and discussed the approach to placing a line. I did the entire thing, from start to finish, with the resident assisting me and the attending charting. Since then I have placed an additional 16 or 17 central lines amongst myriad other procedures and have even acted as lead surgeon, first assist, and co-surgeon.

Obviously it is highly dependent on you and if you aren't very good or proactive you will get less opportunity. But the point is that the ethos is there and the staff and residents are overwhelmingly there to help you learn better, teach well, and have more opportunity for hands on learning. That, to me, is truly the amazingly shining star of this program and why the traditional students clamor to come to Ochsner. But it behooves us to realize that this is a reflection of how exceptional Ochsner is, not how terrible UQ is.
 
Hey there I've been following this thread for a while and will be entering the UQ Ochsner program this January.

I'm not sure if this has been answered elsewhere but I was wondering about how Ochsner will handle the larger cohorts that will starting clinicals in the next couple years. I noticed that the first graduating class for the program was very small and it appears that my entering class will be around 100 students. This seems like a very significant increase.

I recognize that the hospital has been involved in training medical students from other Louisiana schools. Is the plan to stop training these students and only UQ students? If this is the case then perhaps there won't be a net change in students doing rotations at Ochsner. My hope is that any increase in students won't be to the detriment of quality teaching and that stories like nybgrus mentioned continue to occur.
 
My hope is that any increase in students won't be to the detriment of quality teaching and that stories like nybgrus mentioned continue to occur.

That's exactly right. They are sequentially decreasing the amount of Tulane and LSU students that will be rotating through as our number grow. They are also sending us to others of their many campuses for parts of rotations as well. Overall they will actually be able to handle more students than before and so the total number of students will increase, but it will not increase the total number of students by quite as much as our numbers.
 
Sorry, I had to make that statement because I was actually contacted by someone within UQ. But now that my freedom of speech has been respected I want to say that I believe 100% in everything I say and take nothing back
 
Sorry, I had to make that statement because I was actually contacted by someone within UQ. But now that my freedom of speech has been respected I want to say that I believe 100% in everything I say and take nothing back
yeah, right.
 
That's exactly right. They are sequentially decreasing the amount of Tulane and LSU students that will be rotating through as our number grow. They are also sending us to others of their many campuses for parts of rotations as well. Overall they will actually be able to handle more students than before and so the total number of students will increase, but it will not increase the total number of students by quite as much as our numbers.

Would you mind clarifying this please? So you're saying that the increase of Ochsner students and the decrease of Tulane/LSU students will ultimately be a wash? Enkolo asked a question that I was about to ask. Your clinical experience sounds great. I just hope that the quality of the clinical experience doesn't dwindle as the cohort size increases. Thanks.
 
Not that I would expect you to be willing, let alone able, to engage in actual nuanced conversation about a complex topic using actual historical fact and real data. Your entire post is just dripping with conspiracy mongering stupidity, the same you'd find from the 9/11 conspiracists or Truthers or UFO believers.

oh come on man are you really equating 9/11 truthers with UFO believers! come on. Some of the physical evidence supporting controlled demolition is messed up man. Search YouTube videos WTC controlled demolition and look at the footage showing isolated explosions on lower floors while the building is in free fall. And camera footage with sounds of a series of 'BOOM boom boom boom" as firefighters rush out the other building. It's so messed up how as it falls you see an explosion floor by floor by floor and also separate explosions 20, 40 and 60 stories below the top mass in free fall. How could a structural failure cause such concisely timed explosions floor by floor and also project masses laterally at 120mph? Maybe you could explain one explosion saying the magnesium landing gear exploded or something, but such concise floor by floor explosions like in a controlled demolition is messed up. One of the explosions even skips a floor so as it falls you see a huge explosion with one floor above still intact, why would a floor spontaneously explode before the top mass fell on it? But still forgetting even the explosions near the airplane, why would floors 20, 40 and 60 stories below be exploding right as the building starts to fall?

blah blah blah sorry to derail but I only just found out about the evidence of isolated explosions just earlier this week and it very much piqued my interest.
 
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I just wanted to toss my 2 cents in on the program. I'm currently doing my prelim year at Ochsner (though won't be staying for my residency). I did not go to UQ/Ochsner, so I can't comment much on the program itself, but we have worked very closely with the UQ students. As a whole, our residents have been very impressed with them--great presentations, physical exam skills, medical knowledge, etc. Again, I don't know how the stigma of going to medical school out of the country will affect chances of getting a US residency spot, but for sure their program is putting out quality students. I'd say that as a whole they are easily on par to the Tulane students we've come across.
 
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I just wanted to toss my 2 cents in on the program. I'm currently doing my prelim year at Ochsner (though won't be staying for my residency). I did not go to UQ/Ochsner, so I can't comment much on the program itself, but we have worked very closely with the UQ students. As a whole, our residents have been very impressed with them--great presentations, physical exam skills, medical knowledge, etc. Again, I don't know how the stigma of going to medical school out of the country will affect chances of getting a US residency spot, but for sure their program is putting out quality students. I'd say that as a whole they are easily on par to the Tulane students we've come across.

Now this is reassuring :)
 
For those accepted would you mind sharing your stats so I can gauge my chances?
 
For those accepted would you mind sharing your stats so I can gauge my chances?

I'm applying also and asked a similar question before. I was told that the average mcat is 29 and gpa is 3.4.

I was also told that mcats as low as 24 and high as 41 have been accepted and attended uq.

My stats are 3.25 gpa 30 mcat.

What are yours?
 
I'm applying also and asked a similar question before. I was told that the average mcat is 29 and gpa is 3.4.

I was also told that mcats as low as 24 and high as 41 have been accepted and attended uq.

My stats are 3.25 gpa 30 mcat.

What are yours?

3.09 GPA and 35 MCAT I'm hoping if I apply early they'll let my GPA slide
 
GPA is only used as a hurdle at UQ, it is not used to rank applicants. Your admission as an international applicant is based 100% on your MCAT score.
That's what I've read on here but I'm still a little worried...about the deposit, when is it due and how much is it? Do you make it before getting your visa?
 
That's what I've read on here but I'm still a little worried...about the deposit, when is it due and how much is it? Do you make it before getting your visa?

you have about 3 weeks after acceptance offer to make the deposit. I believe $2000 of it is refundable but don't quote me on that.
 
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