[URGENT]Choosing between UCSF, UPenn, and UW

[ericclockman]

Hello All,

I am very fortunate to be accepted by UCSF, UPenn and UW. However, this has been such a hard decision for me, and with the decision day (April 1st) approaching fast, I need to make a decision soon and free up the seats for others (holding a seat at UPenn and UW). Your inputs would be greatly appreciated!

So here is the situation:

I am a Washington resident and went to the UW for my undergrad degree. As a result, going to the UW would be a better decision financially (in the ballpark of 185k for tuition and basically no cost for rent, so probably 230-270k with living expenses in 4 years). However, because I went to the UW for my undergrad degree and have basically been living in Seattle for half of my life, I eagerly want to attend a school outside my hometown, which would take me out of my comfort zone, motivate me to work harder, and help me broaden my perspective. Fortunately, I have Penn and UCSF to choose from, but both of which would cost an arm and a leg (UCSF: about 350k for nonresident; Penn: >400K).

From what I have been reading on SDN and talking to my friends, most people would recommend choosing the cheapest option, so the UW would be the obvious choice... But being in Seattle just means that I will be close to home and family, and I am afraid that I will never really grow up and be independent. Furthermore, I am afraid that I would regret not going to Penn or UCSF in the long run... I am sooooo torn!!!

PLEASE HELP ME!!!
I would love to hear how you would choose if you were in my position.
Thanks guys!

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[dieanotherday]

I thought it would be easy to be a resident after 1st year for ucsf?

 

[ericclockman]

I thought it would be easy to be a resident after 1st year for ucsf?

I looked at the requirements to be considered as a California resident, which seemed rather simple in theory, but I don't know if it will really be that easy in practice...

here is the reference from UCSF Office of the Registrar

To establish residence you must be physically present in California with the intent to make California your permanent home, and you must demonstrate by your actions that you have given up your former residence to establish a residence in California. Once you have established your residence in California, you must reside in California for more than one year (366 days) before you will be eligible to be classified as a resident for tuition purposes. If you are in California solely for educational purposes, you will not be considered to have established a residence for tuition purposes, regardless of the length of your stay. Your residence cannot be derived from your spouse or from your parents unless you are a minor.​

I don't think I will be able to get resident tuition for the duration of dental school...

 

[ToothbrushBuddy]

Well, you could always move away from Washington after graduating from dental school.

 

[Ionz]

City: SF > Seattle (my opinion), but both are way better than Philly
School: Penn > UCSF = UW
Cost: UW >>>>>>>>>> UCSF/Penn (obviously since you're instate for UW)

And I'm pretty sure dental school is going to make all of us more independent faster than we think lol...kind of force fed on us ya know

 

[dieanotherday]

basically
get a CALI driver license
get CALI car insurance
have a CALI permanent address, dont forward mail to WA
thats enough proof really
dont say anything else about school or staying there in the future

 

[ericclockman]

@ToothbrushBuddy - I have considered that idea, but I feel like if I stayed at the UW, I will most likely end up practicing in Seattle/Washington. If I went to UPenn/UCSF, I will more likely practice elsewhere, because I will have a higher student debt, which will motivate me to consider positions that offer loan repayment (so more rural and/or underserved areas). I think what complicates the picture is not only the cost, but also the trajectory of life...
BTW congrats on Penn 2018!

@Ionz - hahaha thanks for the input, especially the force fed part, I agree with you!

@dieanotherday - the thing is... I probably won't have a car/car insurance if I live in SF, but a CA driver license won't be a problem. So all goes well, I might be able to save 30k overall (1st year becomes a resident, but I won't get resident tuition until 3rd year, so it would save me 15k/year for 2 years)

 

[kingenamel]

I don't think getting Ca residency is that hard at all. Many people do it with no problems. I prefer UCSF but I may be biased since I'm from CA and I was impressed by their school and program.

 

[thirstyscholar]

Stay at UW.

All specialties/GPRs remain wide open to you while you save coin. Regardless, your first 2 years of d-school stuck in cramped spaces reading anyway, next 2 years lamenting how you can't wait to leave.

 

[r2thekesh]

You could go to UW. Then precede to take out 80k in loans and give that to me for my financial advising. Then you would have that fire under your butt to get working. Or take the 80K and move across the country. Or take the 80k and go live on an island for a while.

It isn't a minimum 80k, its more like 95K at the end of D4 and a lot of loan payments. You could invest in a condo in Seattle with that kind of money. Then sell it at the end of 4 years. Or work your butt off and do a specialty residency somewhere else?

 

[squigloo]

You're passing up 185K and no rent to move out of your comfort zone?

 

[ericclockman]

@squigloo and @r2thekesh - yeah, i know it doesn't make sense financially... haha, most people would probably choose their state school in a heart beat

 

[CleverThought]

OP, hop on over to dental town and see how those docs feel about debt. It's a huge difference in price you are facing (Even more once interest has accrued). Think of the house you could buy or practice you could invest in with that difference.

 

[ericclockman]

OP, hop on over to dental town and see how those docs feel about debt. It's a huge difference in price you are facing (Even more once interest has accrued). Think of the house you could buy or practice you could invest in with that difference.

Yes I will do that! Thanks for the pointer!

 

[NothingButTheTooth]

I was in your exact situation a couple months ago - It was a tough decision for sure. I was also accepted to UW and UPenn and decided to go to UW and I'm not even a WA resident (but I am a WICHE applicant).

Here is a list of some pros and cons that I put together that might help your decision...

University of Washington
Pros:
- Reputable Dental School
- Specialty Departments
- Changing/Evolving Curriculum and Clerkship Model (6 week rotations in specialties)
- Elective Courses (Individualized Curriculum)
- Cost of Tuition
- Research
- High Specializing Rates
- Small Class Size (63 Students)
- World Renowned Faculty
- Great SIM Lab
- Beautiful Campus
- Seattle Atmosphere

Cons:
- Older Facilities
- Living Expenses

University of Pennsylvania
Pros:
- Reputable Dental School
- Specialty Departments
- Selective Courses (Individualized Curriculum)
- Required 4 Week Specialty Externships
- Research
- High Specializing Rates
- World Renowned Faculty
- Great SIM Lab
- Beautiful Campus
- Top 10% of Class is Ranked

Cons:
- Cost of Tuition (Super Expensive!!!!)
- Larger Class Size (120 Students)
- Older Facilities
- Living Expenses

As you can tell, the lists between the two schools are pretty similar. Ultimately, it's your decision, but I have to admit it would be really hard to pass up the in-state tuition and UPenn is super expensive. Although it was a hard decision, I feel that I made the best one considering my circumstances and the fact that there were a lot of similarities between the two programs. Sorry I can't help you much on UCSF. Best of luck with your decision and maybe I'll see you at UW starting this upcoming fall!

 

[ericclockman]

Thanks a lot, @NothingButTheTooth! Your list is very comprehensive and helpful!
Haha I think I heard about your story and your decision from another friend who is probably your classmate, but yeah, it seems like cost is the biggest variable in between these schools.

 

[techyguy]

Why are you so worried you will not grow up and be independent? In a few years you could potentially be a small business owner with patients, employees, their families and a family of your own to worry about. Moving a few miles away from home will be a drop in the bucket compared to that. If you're not ready for that then sure, leave the old nest. But you got into a few dental schools already, so unless your parents did all your homework for you for that, you've probably done a lot to move towards "adulthood."

One more advantage to going to school where you plan to practice is that if you specialize, you will already know your referrers, so you will not have to advertise to them as much (so I've been told). That seems worth mentioning here if your plan is to move out and then back again.

Lastly, a small pointless anecdote: I've interacted with a couple 25+ y/o's who didn't move out of the house, in the last couple months. From my observations, simply having the self-awareness to worry about "growing up" puts you a few rungs above them, regardless of your academic pursuits.

 

[NothingButTheTooth]

No problem!! haha Wow that's weird.. small world. Yeah, the cost of tuition was the difference maker for me for sure. Also, don't let the whole ivy league thing that UPenn has going for it sway your decision much. From what I've heard, UW reputation in dentistry stands alone - just saying. Obviously a little biased as of a couple months ago haha

 

[ericclockman]

@techyguy Thanks for the encouragement. Everything you said has a good point, especially the part about where I want to practice in the future. I think a big reason is also because I've been living in Seattle for a long time, so I try to find every reason to get away... when the truth is, I will have more resources at my disposal if I stayed in Seattle and get out of school with less debt load.

@NothingButTheTooth hahaha I think the whole ivy league thing is a big attraction to me indeed, which in part is due to my undergrad education at the UW, so I am not as attracted by it I guess... but like you said, UWSOD has a very strong reputation nationally.

 

[sunsets12]

UPenn is not "super expensive", as a lot of SDNers like to say. There are schools much more expensive than UPenn, but don't get scrutinized as much. My guess is that lots of UPenn waitlisters must be on sdn. At UCSF, you will be living in a city ranked one of the highest cost of livings in the country. When I interviewed at UCSF, my interviewer couldn't speak English that well. Kind of off-puting.

I would go to UW and save the money. UPenn nor UCSF are NOT worth the extra cost. You can specialize from UW and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[ktran17]

Have you tried creating a loan repayment schedule and factored in taxes and everything? Make an amortization schedule and the answer should be easy.

Go to UW.

 

[free99]

UPenn is not "super expensive", as a lot of SDNers like to say. There are schools much more expensive than UPenn, but don't get scrutinized as much. My guess is that lots of UPenn waitlisters must be on sdn.

If you compile a list of schools that are ±20k from UPenns total COA ($397k), only two schools are more expensive - NYU ($416k) and USC ($426k). UoP ($388k), Tufts ($388k), Nova ($377k), and ASDOH ($383k) are all close, but still cheaper. All those numbers are from the 2013 ADEA guide and are probably higher this year, too. I guess it's all a matter of perspective, but I would classify all of those schools, UPenn included, as "super expensive".

OP - I faced a similar situation, deciding between my state school, UCSF, and Michigan. Each school had its own unique appeal, but ultimately my decision was made based on what I felt the extra tuition dollars got me. When I broke the decision down as objectively as possible into a list of pros/cons, I realized there was nothing in the "pro" column that warranted spending an extra $60k or $80k.

No one but you can place value on intangibles, but personally, I think the stress from $150k extra in loan repayments outweigh the pride you'd feel when you encounter the opportunity to say "I went to UPenn for dental school!" Either way, congrats on your acceptances and good luck with your decision!

 

[NothingButTheTooth]

@free99 Took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[Gaucho4Life]

UW is my vote. Can't beat the price. All schools are amazing! Congrats and good luck

 

[Meat Gyver]

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