URM acceptance rates - confused

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infiniti said:
As a black student who attended a well regarded undergrad, I can tell you that most URM's who interviewed with me (most schools try to interview URMs around the same time so they can give the impression of being diverse) at several of the top schools had very high numbers. Top schools don't really waste their time chasing around mediocre students. These schools get the creme of the crop regardless of demographics.

As a Latino student who attended a well regarded undergrad, I have had the same experience. The URMs I have met are top notch, with incredible stats.

Also, being in a science program at a UC, there was probably 5% or less "URMs" per class. Its sad not to see more minorities in science and medicine.
 
infiniti said:
I am going to go on a limb and say it is probably true that most of you guys posting such crap haven't had any meaningful contact with URM's (getting drunk together at the local frat doesn't count-that is, if the URMs feel comfortable enough to go there)

Great Point!!! A white, aian, or middle eastern student could never really know a black, latino, or native american...it's like the sharks and the jets from west side story. Best if people keep to their own side of the tracks. And there is gonna be a war if two ever fall in love!!!

That's really beautiful infiniti.
 
NotAnMD said:
Great Point!!! A white, aian, or middle eastern student could never really know a black, latino, or native american...it's like the sharks and the jets from west side story. Best if people keep to their own side of the tracks. And there is gonna be a war if two ever fall in love!!!

That's really beautiful infiniti.

:laugh:
 
Elastase said:
As a Latino student who attended a well regarded undergrad, I have had the same experience. The URMs I have met are top notch, with incredible stats.

Well then care to tell us why they need to be treated differently from any other applicant then?
 
Touchdown said:
Well then care to tell us why they need to be treated differently from any other applicant then?

Life experience. Being able to identify with the underserved. I am of course assuming that the URM was probably underserved themselves. These life experiences really motivate you to make a real difference, especially in outreach, etc.
 
^So for you its not so much that they are a minority, just that they have come from an underserved, poor neighborhood? Would you then be in favor of changing AA to corespond with economics then race?
 
NotAnMD said:
Great Point!!! A white, aian, or middle eastern student could never really know a black, latino, or native american...it's like the sharks and the jets from west side story. Best if people keep to their own side of the tracks. And there is gonna be a war if two ever fall in love!!!

That's really beautiful infiniti.

Thats why said he was "going on a limb." He was refering to some people that really do not have the authority to say things, when they do not fully understand others (URMs) life experiences. Just knowing a few people doesn't count as much, people that have immersed themselves in others communities for longer periods usually have a better understanding of that community. There is a reason why cultural competency is taught in a lot of med schools, its for students to BEGIN to gain a grasp of others cultures to better serve them. The advantage URMs usually have is this innate ability, especially within their own culture. Of course non-URMs also bring this to the table, the ability to identify with their own background, etc. Its this diversity that med schools are trying to increase, and they are having a hard time trying to find qualified URM individuals that can do just that.
 
Touchdown said:
Well then care to tell us why they need to be treated differently from any other applicant then?
Elastase attended a UC, his URM classmates were not admitted under affirmative action, so, at least at that point, they had been held to the same standards. He mentions that there were few of them.

I'm going to interject something here: Medical school admissions, at least at really top places, are so arbitrary that AA ends up being just another of many factors absolutely unconnected to academic achievement. To get an idea of how arbitrary the whole thing really is, compare the stats of med school matriculants with those of law schools. You'll find that the grades and LSATs of law students vary quite clearly with prestige of the school. For the top 20 or so med schools, this isn't the case (some variation, but little). A whole host of factors, from bull**** ECs (and non-bull**** ECs) to legacies, to donations and, yes, AA factor in. The result (yeah, I know, anecdotally) is that my URM classmates are just as smart and prepared as everyone else. Just consider being URM, with all the discrimination and baggage that entails, an extracurricular activity they (involuntarily) participated in.
 
Elastase said:
Thats why said he was "going on a limb." He was refering to some people that really do not have the authority to say things, when they do not fully understand others (URMs) life experiences. Just knowing a few people doesn't count as much, people that have immersed themselves in others communities for longer periods usually have a better understanding of that community. There is a reason why cultural competency is taught in a lot of med schools, its for students to BEGIN to gain a grasp of others cultures to better serve them. The advantage URMs usually have is this innate ability, especially within their own culture. Of course non-URMs also bring this to the table, the ability to identify with their own background, etc. Its this diversity that med schools are trying to increase, and they are having a hard time trying to find qualified URM individuals that can do just that.

Come on!!!

What infiniti said was offensive. And with that line of thinking, the "you don't know what it's really like to be me" argument, ANYONE can justify ANYTHING they want. That kind of us vs them mentality is utterly worthless. It's a cop out...self serving and indulgent.
 
Touchdown said:
^So for you its not so much that they are a minority, just that they have come from an underserved, poor neighborhood? Would you then be in favor of changing AA to corespond with economics then race?

The minority aspect correlates VERY much with socioeconomic backgound. I'm not completey for AA, but I do support increasing minorities in healthcare until they are represented well within medicine. AA is one way to do that, but probaby not the best way. The best way would be starting earlier in life (elementary/highschool) and increase qualified minorities this way (but this is a HUGE amount of work). There is a huge amount of health disparities, and by increasing minority physicians, we can bring in that perpective to increase assess to healthcare. I also highly support applicants that have shown a HIGH amount of interest of working w/ the underserved (now and in the future) to gain additional points in the process, and I think this is being done in supplement of the URM consideration.
 
NotAnMD said:
Great Point!!! A white, aian, or middle eastern student could never really know a black, latino, or native american...it's like the sharks and the jets from west side story. Best if people keep to their own side of the tracks. And there is gonna be a war if two ever fall in love!!!

That's really beautiful infiniti.


No one is saying people can't know one another. That is just a little figment of your imagination. The fact that you think everyone knows everyone and everything is yippy tells me how little you know about this things. A little fact to wake you up- It is indeed true that whites, asian, and middle eastern on the most part do not interact with black, latino or native american (to use your own setence). College campuses are supposed to be better than the general population when it comes to social interaction. Even so, the sad realities of american college campuses are eminent.

Every now and then you see a few people who genuinely know one another from these groups (I repeat, these are exceptions). And yes, interracial dating or whatever between those groups still cause friction. Let's not kid ourselves.

Personally, I don't limit myself socially. I don't really care to include or preclude any group of people. If you are cool, you can be my peeps.
 
Elastase said:
Life experience. Being able to identify with the underserved. I am of course assuming that the URM was probably underserved themselves. These life experiences really motivate you to make a real difference, especially in outreach, etc.


I find previous posts that a white, Asian or Middle Eastern person couldn't have meaningful interactions with Native American, Latino, or black people a little offensive (unless it was just sarcastic). I lived in South America, speak spanish, am a certified medical spanish interpreter and interact with latinos in a meaningful way on a daily basis.... quite possibly in a more meaningful capacity than some of the 2nd and 3rd generation latinos out there that don't speak any spanish. I would have genuine interest serving that community someday. However, being white, I may not get into medical school with a 30 MCAT and 3.6 GPA, a masters, 5 pubs, fluency in 3 languages, etc. (having been told by one school post interview that my verbal score was prohibitively low (an 8), while that same school accepted a african american with a 5 and another with a 6 (according to mdapplicants).... so I am a little irritated by the current state of med school admissions. If ethnicity is going to be taken into consideration, it should not be allowed to account for more than ~10-20% of the equation
 
star22 said:
However, being white, I may not get into medical school with a 30 MCAT and 3.6 GPA, a masters, 5 pubs, fluency in 3 languages, etc. (having been told by one school post interview that my verbal score was prohibitively low (an 8), while that same school accepted a african american with a 5 and another with a 6 (according to mdapplicants).... so I am a little irritated by the current state of med school admissions. If ethnicity is going to be taken into consideration, it should be allowed to account for more than ~10-20% of the equation

The myth is that you won't get into med school with stats like that unless you are a complete tool or too arrogant to apply to lesser schools (Maybe not top 20 since, after all, you got an 8 in verbal) 🙂

The admissions committees take more than just numbers into account. High numbers don't necessarily = good doctor.
 
star22 said:
I find previous posts that a white, Asian or Middle Eastern person couldn't have meaningful interactions with Native American, Latino, or black people a little offensive (unless it was just sarcastic). I lived in South America, speak spanish, am a certified medical spanish interpreter and interact with latinos in a meaningful way on a daily basis.... quite possibly in a more meaningful capacity than some of the 2nd and 3rd generation latinos out there that don't speak any spanish. I would have genuine interest serving that community someday. However, being white, I may not get into medical school with a 30 MCAT and 3.6 GPA, a masters, 5 pubs, fluency in 3 languages, etc. (having been told by one school post interview that my verbal score was prohibitively low (an 8), while that same school accepted a african american with a 5 and another with a 6 (according to mdapplicants).... so I am a little irritated by the current state of med school admissions. If ethnicity is going to be taken into consideration, it should be allowed to account for more than ~10-20% of the equation

Yeah by all means there are people from different backgrounds that CAN and DO relate well with other cultures because of their experiences. Yeah that doesn't make sense, according to your experiences, that you have not been swooped up by a med school. Maybe you didn't apply to the right schools, or maybe something else was not great in your application (i.e. LORs, personal statement, not enough clinical stuff, these are just example I don't know about your specific case).

Different schools look at the ethnicity factor differently. I really believe that most schools make it a slight consideration, and not as drastic as some people believe. It is definitely not considered based on a percentage, its more like taking the application into deeper consideration, esp. if its URM/disadvantaged (both)...
 
infiniti said:
No one is saying people can't know one another. That is just a little figment of your imagination. The fact that you think everyone knows everyone and everything is yippy tells me how little you know about this things. A little fact to wake you up- It is indeed true that whites, asian, and middle eastern on the most part do not interact with black, latino or native american (to use your own setence). College campuses are supposed to be better than the general population when it comes to social interaction. Even so, the sad realities of american college campuses are eminent.

Every now and then you see a few people who genuinely know one another from these groups (I repeat, these are exceptions). And yes, interracial dating or whatever between those groups still cause friction. Let's not kid ourselves.

Personally, I don't limit myself socially. I don't really care to include or preclude any group of people. If you are cool, you can be my peeps.

Its interesting that you accuse whites/asians of being ignorant to other cultures and "sticking to their own" when this is also common of african americans and latinos. to say that whites/asians on "the most part" do not interact with the minorities you listed is such a a HUGE geneneralization. Basically what youre assuming here is that african americans/latinos are familiar with the white/asian populations more so than the opposite...thats ridiculous but of course completely self-serving to your argument. We could ALL stand to be a little more tolerant and a little less ignorant. And tell me, how many native americans do you socialize with?
 
Vizsla said:
Its interesting that you accuse whites/asians of being ignorant to other cultures and "sticking to their own" when this is also common of african americans and latinos. to say that whites/asians on "the most part" do not interact with the minorities you listed is such a a HUGE geneneralization. Basically what youre assuming here is that african americans/latinos are familiar with the white/asian populations more so than the opposite...thats ridiculous but of course completely self-serving to your argument. We could ALL stand to be a little more tolerant and a little less ignorant. And tell me, how many native americans do you socialize with?

Yeah, at my school it's only the black students who truly self-segregate. Other groups may do it too, but only to a small extent. Generally, it's common to see Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern, and Anglo/Euro/white kids hanging out together. But you almost never see any black kids with them. It may not be this way everywhere, I realize.
 
eastsidaz said:
Yeah, at my school it's only the black students who truly self-segregate. Other groups may do it too, but only to a small extent. Generally, it's common to see Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern, and Anglo/Euro/white kids hanging out together. But you almost never see any black kids with them. It may not be this way everywhere, I realize.
You're assuming that the segregation is solely self-segregation, and you fail to say how large each of these groups is within the population. Some people like to seek out the 3 others who look like them. I don't personally, but I know plenty of people who do. Ever thought about how much a handful of white people would clump together in a predominantly black environment? I've seen that happen too.
 
Thundrstorm said:
You're assuming that the segregation is solely self-segregation, and you fail to say how large each of these groups is within the population. Some people like to seek out the 3 others who look like them. I don't personally, but I know plenty of people who do. Ever thought about how much a handful of white people would clump together in a predominantly black environment? I've seen that happen too.


This is fair, but why are only blacks doing it? Latinos and blacks exist in the same numbers at my school, but Latinos--even international students from Latin America--fit in more readily. I think this is a cultural thing, and maybe a skin color thing, since many of them are indistinguishable from vanilla white kids. It's also interesting to note that actual natives of Africa hang out with whites.

Another point is that a sizable chunk of the black population at a lot of schools is made up of varsity athletes, who are likely to spend time together anyway.
 
I am glad this is making you guys think about the issues. I do however like to remind you that I am not just talking about your little college campuses. In the grand scheme of things, I am talking about everyday life and other more important situations.

May I suggest that you guys step away from your computer and observe what's going on right outside your doors. As a matter of fact, talk to your parents and see what they have to say. My post isn't about generalizations, it is about the realities of American life as it stands .

My post is there to stimulate discussions and thoughts. I don't worry about how you interpret what I had to say (although some of your interpretations seem to come from no where). If you want to believe I am pinpointing a certain group, then by all means know yourselves out.

Being a minority in a country also means that you're well inclined with the popular culture than the popular culture is inclined with yours. Certainly everyone could learn from others, but let's call a spade a spade.
 
Another point is that a sizable chunk of the black population at a lot of schools is made up of varsity athletes, who are likely to spend time together anyway.[/QUOTE]


It is a fact that the vasity athlete population at most schools (except for those that have 10-20 black students) are not large relative to the overall black population. This is another misconception coming from students who have "extensive interactions" with URMs.
 
infiniti said:
Another point is that a sizable chunk of the black population at a lot of schools is made up of varsity athletes, who are likely to spend time together anyway.


It is a fact that the vasity athlete population at most schools (except for those that have 10-20 black students) are not large relative to the overall black population. This is another misconception coming from students who have "extensive interactions" with URMs.[/QUOTE]

This is true at state schools, but not mine. We have ~500 black students, and at least 50 of those are on the football roster. Once you start looking at the other teams, you see that it is, in fact, a sizable chunk, though not a majority.
 
500-50 = 450.

Let's assume that those 50 students are absolutely segregated from other races (including their white or other race football teammates), there are still 450 students (90% of total black student population) to interact with. I don't see how mentioning varsity football (even in your supposedly small school) helps your argument. Please enlighten me!
 
infiniti said:
500-50 = 450.

Let's assume that those 50 students are absolutely segregated from other races (including their white or other race football teammates), there are still 450 students (90% of total black student population) to interact with. I don't see how mentioning varsity football (even in your supposedly small school) helps your argument. Please enlighten me!
He's saying you should also consider basketball, track, etc.
 
Vizsla said:
Its interesting that you accuse whites/asians of being ignorant to other cultures and "sticking to their own" when this is also common of african americans and latinos. to say that whites/asians on "the most part" do not interact with the minorities you listed is such a a HUGE geneneralization. Basically what youre assuming here is that african americans/latinos are familiar with the white/asian populations more so than the opposite...thats ridiculous but of course completely self-serving to your argument. We could ALL stand to be a little more tolerant and a little less ignorant. And tell me, how many native americans do you socialize with?

Oh crap...grandslam out the park!!!!!

I gotta put more meat on the grill!
 
Vizsla said:
Is this the only reason you visit this thread? to post a link to that discussion multiple times? Congrats, everyone gets it... nothing new has been presented...satisfied? but this wont stop people from posting anyways so get over it. If youre tired of reading the same old **** then dont visit the thread.

Btw what you just said was posted on this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=245260

PS: get over yourself 🙄
 
star22 said:
I find previous posts that a white, Asian or Middle Eastern person couldn't have meaningful interactions with Native American, Latino, or black people a little offensive (unless it was just sarcastic). I lived in South America, speak spanish, am a certified medical spanish interpreter and interact with latinos in a meaningful way on a daily basis.... quite possibly in a more meaningful capacity than some of the 2nd and 3rd generation latinos out there that don't speak any spanish. I would have genuine interest serving that community someday. However, being white, I may not get into medical school with a 30 MCAT and 3.6 GPA, a masters, 5 pubs, fluency in 3 languages, etc. (having been told by one school post interview that my verbal score was prohibitively low (an 8), while that same school accepted a african american with a 5 and another with a 6 (according to mdapplicants).... so I am a little irritated by the current state of med school admissions. If ethnicity is going to be taken into consideration, it should not be allowed to account for more than ~10-20% of the equation

Are you going to play the victim and blame others because YOU could not get an acceptance??
 
star22 said:
...while that same school accepted a african american with a 5 and another with a 6 (according to mdapplicants).... so I am a little irritated by the current state of med school admissions. If ethnicity is going to be taken into consideration, it should not be allowed to account for more than ~10-20% of the equation

Dude, you can't believe everything you see on the internet. MdApplicants data is skewed, if it is true at all. Having experience in research, you should know that self selected, self reported data means almost nothing.
 
infiniti said:
No one is saying people can't know one another. That is just a little figment of your imagination. The fact that you think everyone knows everyone and everything is yippy tells me how little you know about this things.
Look man, I obviously have no idea what happened concerning race relations that pissed you off so badly, but not everyone has such a hard time relating to people with a different skin color.

For myself, and I think for most people, this isn't even an issue about loosing "my spot" to a URM with lower stats. And everyone is aware that there are a ton of URM's who more than earned their place.Nor is this about slowing minorities down in their quest to better themselves or denying care to underserved populations. I oppose AA in medical school admissions and scholarships on principle alone. And it stimulates me intellectually to see what people of a different perspective have to say. But when I read posts like yours, it makes me concerned about issues bigger than AA, because it's obviously coming from a deep feeling of division between races. Not everyone thinks that way, and most of us going to med school are huge idealists. Though I oppose AA, I am still going to be working side by side with guys like you, serving the underserved (one has nothing to do with the other). But you need to be aware that a ton of people have a problem with the inherent inequality of AA for very valid, well articulated reasons. And we are the same people who are going to voice those opinions when we are your colleagues. So you might want to come up with better arguments than "you don't know me" and "you can't effectively treat the minorities of america". That just fuels the division that you are so upset about.
 
Newton Bohr MD said:
Are you going to play the victim and blame others because YOU could not get an acceptance??

Not at all. I was just pointing out that I think if AdComs have the goal of finding students that are going to fill a niche in the underserved communities, race/ethnicity is only part of the equation.
 
infiniti said:
In terms of matriculation #'s for URM's (specifically referring to AA here), I am surprised people here (except for 2 or 3 people who posted above) are ignoring the fact that HBCU's take almost a 3rd of all matriculating African Americans. Look at the website for those schools and you will see that their averages are quite low relative to say, top 10 med schools. Those numbers are averages, which means aproximately 30 to 50 % are below or above. This fact by itself has seriously drags down the average for URM's matriculating at non HBCU.

This also implies that non HBCU are accepting black students at a ridiculously low rate. If you take out all the students going to Historically black medical schools, the acceptance rate of black students goes to a shameful level. So what preference are you guys talking about and how many people get this "preferential treatment".

As a black student who attended a well regarded undergrad, I can tell you that most URM's who interviewed with me (most schools try to interview URMs around the same time so they can give the impression of being diverse) at several of the top schools had very high numbers. Top schools don't really waste their time chasing around mediocre students. These schools get the creme of the crop regardless of demographics.

THANK YOU INFINITI. THIS IS THE POINT THAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO STRESS FOR THE LAST TWO DAYS. 25% OF AFRICAN AMERICAN PHYSICIANS COME FROM EITHER HOWARD, MEHARRY, OR MOREHOUSE - only 3 schools, and SCHOOLS AT WHICH THE STATS ARE CONSIDERABLY LOWER. So that means the rest of African American physicians are dispersed between 117 schools. (I think there are 120 med schools total, and I am sure that some obviously pursued DO degrees or were trained outside the US, etc.) So while this is not the answer to the issue, I just wish people would have a bit more perspective when they speak. Sure there are URMS at top schools that may have lower than avg stats. So what are we talking, maybe 2-3 people (most med schools have about like 10 URMS I believe). Maybe those people had a special situation or did something amazing - no one here is on those admissions committees, so we don't know. And sure there are some people who some believe "don't deserve" to be at these schools. The system isn't perfect, and we should focus on ways to fix that, and not on pointing the finger and relaying our opinions on who is to blame or on who deserves what.

And this is a question that I am sure I will get flamed for -
For everyone complaining about not being able to get into med school etc., how many of you applied to either Howard, Meharry, or Morehouse?
 
Think about this: America and the United States as we know it today is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. Why...you ask? One major factor is that while other countries were developing industry to build their country up...AMERICA used the free labor of URMs. Specifically African Americans. It is estimated that over 7 million blacks were foricibly moved from their countries to America to be slaves....Thus...Blacks were building this country up while those in control (WASPS) were making the $$$. It has not been that long since slavery ppl...You think a couple decades of Afirmative Action makes the playing field level...Do you really think this?
 
bluehighlighter said:
Think about this: America and the United States as we know it today is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. Why...you ask? One major factor is that while other countries were developing industry to build their country up...AMERICA used the free labor of URMs. Specifically African Americans. It is estimated that over 7 million blacks were foricibly moved from their countries to America to be slaves....Thus...Blacks were building this country up while those in control (WASPS) were making the $$$. It has not been that long since slavery ppl...You think a couple decades of Afirmative Action makes the playing field level...Do you really think this?[/QUOTE]

interesting point.

You know, and with all this arguing that we are doing, people also forget that the BIGGEST BENEFICIARIES OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ARE WHITE WOMEN. Oh yes yes. Many college campuses are now close to 50-50 male/female. Please don't forget that many of the top schools in America did not start accepting women until the mid 20th century. But of course no one is going to say that this is unfair. Let me not launch into my feminist rhetoric, but obviously the inclusion of women allows for the opportunity for society to move away from masculine/patriarchal ideals and systems. Is it too far fetched to think that the increase of underrepresented minorities in healthcare would be a positive move towards eliminating healthcare disparities? Come on guys...
 
ladyballa1492 said:
And this is a question that I am sure I will get flamed for -
For everyone complaining about not being able to get into med school etc., how many of you applied to either Howard, Meharry, or Morehouse?

I applied to Howard last year, received a secondary with the wrong year crossed out and the right year written in pencil, submitted the secondary and received no response after that, not even a rejection...so apparently I am still being considered for the Class of 2009 🙂 Ladyballa, I dont think anyone here is complaining that there are TOO MANY URMs admitted, just that the system of AA is short term solution that completely avoids the root of the problem and ends up serving as a crutch to some minorities who do not warrant any extra consideration based on their educational background.
 
oh howard howard, lol.

i definitely understand your point and see where you are coming from. i personally even think that AA should be less of a factor when applying to professional schools than it is when applying to college. it just seems like a lot of people on here keep arguing about the TON of people that they know who went to an Ivy undergrad who got into Yale or Wash U with subpar scores. All I wish is that when we have these debates is that people would be a bit more realistic with the facts and stories that they bring to the table; it makes the discussion more useful.
 
ladyballa1492 said:
bluehighlighter said:
Think about this: America and the United States as we know it today is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. Why...you ask? One major factor is that while other countries were developing industry to build their country up...AMERICA used the free labor of URMs. Specifically African Americans. It is estimated that over 7 million blacks were foricibly moved from their countries to America to be slaves....Thus...Blacks were building this country up while those in control (WASPS) were making the $$$. It has not been that long since slavery ppl...You think a couple decades of Afirmative Action makes the playing field level...Do you really think this?[/QUOTE]

interesting point.

You know, and with all this arguing that we are doing, people also forget that the BIGGEST BENEFICIARIES OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ARE WHITE WOMEN. Oh yes yes. Many college campuses are now close to 50-50 male/female. Please don't forget that many of the top schools in America did not start accepting women until the mid 20th century. But of course no one is going to say that this is unfair. Let me not launch into my feminist rhetoric, but obviously the inclusion of women allows for the opportunity for society to move away from masculine/patriarchal ideals and systems. Is it too far fetched to think that the increase of underrepresented minorities in healthcare would be a positive move towards eliminating healthcare disparities? Come on guys...
Where did this come from? Women face hurdles not help getting into college these days: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/264293_collegegirl26.html
 
Vizsla said:
I applied to Howard last year, received a secondary with the wrong year crossed out and the right year written in pencil, submitted the secondary and received no response after that, not even a rejection...so apparently I am still being considered for the Class of 2009 🙂 Ladyballa, I dont think anyone here is complaining that there are TOO MANY URMs admitted, just that the system of AA is short term solution that completely avoids the root of the problem and ends up serving as a crutch to some minorities who do not warrant any extra consideration based on their educational background.

Hahahahaha, yeah...howard is known for being the most unorganized school in the world!!!! A friend of mine had the same thing happen to her. I hang my head in shame.

Newsflash: Vizla has been nominated to represent the NL East in this year's All-Star game...

Dammit, who drank all the Kool-Aid
 
bluehighlighter said:
Think about this: America and the United States as we know it today is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. Why...you ask? One major factor is that while other countries were developing industry to build their country up...AMERICA used the free labor of URMs. Specifically African Americans. It is estimated that over 7 million blacks were foricibly moved from their countries to America to be slaves....Thus...Blacks were building this country up while those in control (WASPS) were making the $$$. It has not been that long since slavery ppl...You think a couple decades of Afirmative Action makes the playing field level...Do you really think this?

Alls I have to say to this is wow, thats some insight; unfortunatly its not really true, but before I begin and am labled a biggot son of a slave owner I just need to add that my family was still living in Europe at the time of the civil war, and would not make it to this country until the turn of the 20th century so my realtives had nothing to do with this whole bloody affair (and I am the first person to live in a southern state, having moved to Virgina just this year.)

Ok, history lesson: the civil war ended in the year 1865. At that time America was an afterthought on world politics, and had only recently aquired the present day 48 states by hook or by crook via buyouts and wars. While the South had relied entirely on slave labor to produce its cotton trade, there was the other half of the economy, the free north where the industrial revolution was taking hold. The reason that the South lost the civil war, mainly was due to a lack of resoures, the north simply had more economic might then then the south (which had better military leaders and eaisier war aims.) After the war, despite vast swaths of the south laying in ruin (and thus incapable of being farmed) the country didnt colapse so clearly even back then the US did not have to rely on southern cotton, ergo your claim is BS from the get go, the American economy was running on factories and freeing the slaves did nothing to hurt their growth after the civil war, ergo slave labor was not needed to drive the primary engine of the American economy at that time. When America did finally become a world power, during the early 20th century it was again achived via economic might of the great American factory.

And now on to my pet peeve, with all due respect, why the hell do you need to constantly bring up the civil war and act like it hasnt been over despite the fact it ended allmost 150 years ago; do you have any idea what kind of company you are putting yourself in using that as a crutch? The only other people who use that as a sourse of all their woes are the good ol boys with the confederate flag still hanging on their rusty pick-up trucks! At this point no one you know was alive during that time and all most everyone you know wasnt even alive when people who lived during the civil war were alive. Granted, the 13-15th amendments were never fully followed until the 1960s, but you werent alive to experience that either (and neither were any of your classmates.)

Your arguement about URMs being equally qualified, but still needing special assistance is a circular, illogical arguement. You are either equal, or you are inferior and need extra help in order to achive equality. You cant have your cake and eat it too, pick one! Its high time we changed racial AA to economic AA and focus on the people who truely need the break to get out of poverty.
 
Touchdown said:
Your arguement about URMs being equally qualified, but still needing special assistance is a circular, illogical arguement. You are either equal, or you are inferior and need extra help in order to achive equality. You cant have your cake and eat it too, pick one! Its high time we changed racial AA to economic AA and focus on the people who truely need the break to get out of poverty.

Awesome post and history lesson. Most coherent and direct I've seen. It cannot be had both ways.
 
Touchdown said:
Alls I have to say to this is wow, thats some insight; unfortunatly its not really true, but before I begin and am labled a biggot son of a slave owner I just need to add that my family was still living in Europe at the time of the civil war, and would not make it to this country until the turn of the 20th century so my realtives had nothing to do with this whole bloody affair (and I am the first person to live in a southern state, having moved to Virgina just this year.)

Ok, history lesson: the civil war ended in the year 1865. At that time America was an afterthought on world politics, and had only recently aquired the present day 48 states by hook or by crook via buyouts and wars. While the South had relied entirely on slave labor to produce its cotton trade, there was the other half of the economy, the free north where the industrial revolution was taking hold. The reason that the South lost the civil war, mainly was due to a lack of resoures, the north simply had more economic might then then the south (which had better military leaders and eaisier war aims.) After the war, despite vast swaths of the south laying in ruin (and thus incapable of being farmed) the country didnt colapse so clearly even back then the US did not have to rely on southern cotton, ergo your claim is BS from the get go, the American economy was running on factories and freeing the slaves did nothing to hurt their growth after the civil war, ergo slave labor was not needed to drive the primary engine of the American economy at that time. When America did finally become a world power, during the early 20th century it was again achived via economic might of the great American factory.

And now on to my pet peeve, with all due respect, why the hell do you need to constantly bring up the civil war and act like it hasnt been over despite the fact it ended allmost 150 years ago; do you have any idea what kind of company you are putting yourself in using that as a crutch? The only other people who use that as a sourse of all their woes are the good ol boys with the confederate flag still hanging on their rusty pick-up trucks! At this point no one you know was alive during that time and all most everyone you know wasnt even alive when people who lived during the civil war were alive. Granted, the 13-15th amendments were never fully followed until the 1960s, but you werent alive to experience that either (and neither were any of your classmates.)

Your arguement about URMs being equally qualified, but still needing special assistance is a circular, illogical arguement. You are either equal, or you are inferior and need extra help in order to achive equality. You cant have your cake and eat it too, pick one! Its high time we changed racial AA to economic AA and focus on the people who truely need the break to get out of poverty.

Do you believe this country has a history of putting black people 10 steps behind whites??

Do you believe black people would be better off if they had received reparations??
 
Newton Bohr MD

1. I believe that blacks began far off worse then any other immigrant and that the glass ceiling on black achivement did not get removed until the Civil Rights era in the 1960s, its not that they were constantly put 10 steps behind whites its that they were orginally put 20 steps behind and were diliberatly slowed for 90 years after they were allowed to start advancing.

2. A big resounding no! First of all, it would bankrupt the federal governement and thus negativly affect all citizens and lastly its not logical. Why should the great-great-great-great-great grandson/daughter of a slave get reperations, they werent the one neagivly affected by slavery, infact if you could argue they are experiencing a benifit because without their ancestor's servititude they wouldnt be American citizens. That by no means justifys it, but it makes paying reperations silly.
 
Touchdown said:
Newton Bohr MD

1. I believe that blacks began far off worse then any other immigrant and that the glass ceiling on black achivement did not get removed until the Civil Rights era in the 1960s, its not that they were constantly put 10 steps behind whites its that they were orginally put 20 steps behind and were diliberatly slowed for 90 years after they were allowed to start advancing.

2. 1)A big resounding no! First of all, it would bankrupt the federal governement and thus negativly affect all citizens and lastly its not logical. Why should the great-great-great-great-great grandson/daughter of a slave get reperations, they werent the one neagivly affected by slavery, 2)infact if you could argue they are experiencing a benifit because without their ancestor's servititude they wouldnt be American citizens. That by no means justifys it, but it makes paying reperations silly.

1)I was referring to the 1800's not now
2) :laugh: :laugh: Wow ... I hope you never say that in public 👎
 
1. No, because they were not equal citizens back then and no amount of money is going make them that, and they likely would have been defrauded out of it. A better thing to have done would have been to actually enforce the 13-15 amendments and start providing an education for black children (and any adult that could spare the time) from the get go.

2. I wouldnt because I dont necissarly believe it I've just heard it before and you have to agree it is interesting, not that is an excuse for it. My biggest reason is the whole time thing, I just thought I would throw the American citizen thing out there as an argument I have heard in the past.
 
Brainsucker said:
ladyballa1492 said:
Where did this come from? Women face hurdles not help getting into college these days: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/264293_collegegirl26.html

yeah, but as the article says, the number of women in college is close to 50, whether it is seeming more compet. and problematic is another issue entirely, the point i was trying to make is that the numbers are now close to equal as a result of aa legislation. that's all.

great pictures from yale.
 
Touchdown said:
^I wouldnt because I dont necissarly believe it I've just heard it before and you have to agree it has some merit, not that is an excuse for it. My biggest reason is the whole time thing, I just thought I would throw the American citizen thing out there as an argument I have heard in the past.

No...
 
^I agree, thats why I changed it to interesting but I can see why some people think it does.
 
Touchdown said:
^I agree, thats why I changed it to interesting but I can see why some people think it does.


some people?? you mean white supremacist... :laugh: Lets just say if you had a gov. job and said that you would prob. not have a job anymore... :laugh:
 
Sadly its not just white supremacists unfortunatly and yes it isnt PC (which by the way I dispise because there is no way you can have a decent debate while trying to adhere.)

Heres a way I can sort of buy this arguement, again Ive heard it a lot of times and I still dont really buy it but I see the logic in there because of my belief that everything happens for a reason aka silver lining to a cloud, anyways here we go:

First the textbook trajedy with a silver lining:

Holocaust=horrible but the silver lining Isreal is created in direct response to the horror the western world had over the Holocaust.

And now the slavery one:

Slavery=horrible but siliver lining is that a lot of African Americans whouldnt be in the US right now if their ancestors whouldnt have been forceable abducted and forced into slaved labor here

Notice that neither of these things actually excuse the action, but in the long run the agrument states they did produce a tangible good (the reason I cannot fully believe this is because if slave traders hadnt decimated most west african socities who knows how different Africa could have been, it may have even been a better place to live then the US, unfortunatly we will never know.)
 
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