URM acceptance rates - confused

[cfdavid]

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It originated as something civil rights leaders (including MLK Jr.) advocated for in the mid-60s. Lyndon Johnson adopted it as a way to correct structural iniquities. During the Nixon administration, it became a mandatory part of the process of giving federal contracts. Universities adopted it as well, as racial protests swept campuses nationwide.

Forty years later, it still exists, and we're still debating it. When asked how long it would take for AA to level the playing field, Thurgood Marshall said something like, "one hundred years, at least".

The concern, obviously, for those of us who are skeptical of it, is that it will become permanently entrenched in our culture. It's supposed to solve a problem, but will any group that benefits from it ever willingly give it up if "equality" is achieved? No people, white, black, or purple, act against their self-interest. Hence, the emphasis has gone from "leveling the playing field" to "diversity", a justification that will allow AA to remain in place indefinitely.

Even worse, people who question it on SDN get flamed and treated like complete bigots. 🙁

It's interesting, because many of us don't have a problem with adcoms selecting based on factors other than just numbers. Many of us would tend to agree (see, now you know I don't have a 4.0/45 lol) that there's more involved in becoming a great physician (hopefully the goal of all med schools).

I wouldn't even have a problem if adcoms thought, "well, gee, we really need family practice docs to stick around and serve urban Detroit" "and, golly, we think that the black guy that grew up and lives in urban Detroit is a bit more apt to stick around." "therefore, we are going to take the black guy (with an otherwise similar application) over the non-URM." No big deal. To me, that makes sense. We must respect the mission of any given institution.

Or, to consider economic or other life factors in the equation. How much did YOU spend on the app process or on study aids/professional courses?? They're not cheap. Economic background does matter.

But, I think it's natural for people to resist selection factors that are based soley (very hard to prove) on skin color. Again, consider the above scenario. I honestly don't think people would have a problem with that. However, to admit someone over another in order to fill a quota just doesn't seem fair, and people will continue to be uncomfortable with that.

Oh, by the way eastsidaz, I'm not directing this response to you. Rather, your post made me think of something and I lazily hit reply. lol

 

[cfdavid]

It's always interesting how people vehemently against AA try to use MLK to support their arguments. 🙄

Particularly when the man was about as strong a supporter of AA as anyone alive in the '60s.

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/mlk3.html

The last time I encountered this was on the blog of a nearly plainly racist Representative (I believe he's from Indiana) who went about quoting MLK's "I have a dream" speech, and distorting it as much as possible to imply he was anti-AA. He got torn a new a$$hole on his blog by non-bigots, and he promptly disallowed comments on his blog - I kid you not. 🙂

This isn't good company to keep.

perhaps the man you reference is/was a bigot. but, not everyone that disagrees with you, or AA, is a bigot.

 

[cfdavid]

If you feel that you are at a disadvantage, you are free to check the box on AMCAS.

First, I don't think you can assume that's what she feels. Second, you should know that most people would feel extremely uncomfortable checking the disadvantaged box. And that's probably a good thing, because our culture of victims (which has nothing to do with race) is a sad thing.

Everyone's a victim these days. Example abound.
Sure, there are people that really should check that box. I can only imagine. But, even the ones that should probably don't. Because if they've gotten that far, they've learned not to focus on their obstacles. Rather, I'm sure they see those as minor hurdles to be ran over, around, through, or under.

 

[cfdavid]

Shyrem, how can people be disadvantaged when they are black, doing well in school and have been "accidently" given B- in several classes only to have the grades changed to A+ after other professors regraded them?

Why is the sky blue?

Why do hold on to your purse ever so tightly when that "dark figure" walks towards you?

Why don't we ever see news about black, and latino kids missing on TV? Do this group have a genetic mutation that surpresses getting lost?

Frankly there are many questions in this world. My advice for you and others thinking along the same line is to go out there and try to understand things from a different perspective. Put yourselves in unfamiliar situation and keep an open mind. You might surprise yourself. If not, you can at least say you've tried.

You're correct that there is a lack of coverage when minority kids go missing. But, liberals are so elitist as to suggest that everybody else needs to be more "open minded" or needs to look at it through the other persons shoes.

Did it ever occur to you that people watch what they can most identify with? (know many whites that watch BET? some, perhaps, but not a lot)

Ever consider that a pretty girl (regardless of race even) might spur public outcry more than the ugly one (people will be people), and as a result those little girls get more attention? And that attention is good for ratings which is good for ad sales??

And remind yourself, when you reach parenthood, not to take some extra precautions when in an unfamiliar neighborhood known for having high crime rates. Perhaps that neighborhood is also mainly minority. But, no matter how hard you try, you can't help but notice that the majority of crimes commited in that neighborhood come from the majority ethnicity there. Now, when you get the flat tire, or run out of gas (or simply are walking down the street) with your family in tow, why don't you be the one that "experiments" with your loved ones.

 

[NotAnMD]

First, I don't think you can assume that's what she feels. Second, you should know that most people would feel extremely uncomfortable checking the disadvantaged box. And that's probably a good thing, because our culture of victims (which has nothing to do with race) is a sad thing.

Everyone's a victim these days. Example abound.
Sure, there are people that really should check that box. I can only imagine. But, even the ones that should probably don't. Because if they've gotten that far, they've learned not to focus on their obstacles. Rather, I'm sure they see those as minor hurdles to be ran over, around, through, or under.

This post begs the question...

Is it fair for URM's who come from wealthy, affluent backgrounds to benefit from disadvantaged status?

 

[riceman04]

This post begs the question...

Is it fair for URM's who come from wealthy, affluent backgrounds to benefit from disadvantaged status?

"disadvantaged status"...swing...and a miss by a mile!...why is this guy even in the major leagues.
strike:1

marzd pass that chicken

 

[riceman04]

You're correct that there is a lack of coverage when minority kids go missing. But, liberals are so elitist as to suggest that everybody else needs to be more "open minded" or needs to look at it through the other persons shoes.

Did it ever occur to you that people watch what they can most identify with? (know many whites that watch BET? some, perhaps, but not a lot)

Ever consider that a pretty girl (regardless of race even) might spur public outcry more than the ugly one (people will be people), and as a result those little girls get more attention? And that attention is good for ratings which is good for ad sales??

And remind yourself, when you reach parenthood, not to take some extra precautions when in an unfamiliar neighborhood known for having high crime rates. Perhaps that neighborhood is also mainly minority. But, no matter how hard you try, you can't help but notice that the majority of crimes commited in that neighborhood come from the majority ethnicity there. Now, when you get the flat tire, or run out of gas (or simply are walking down the street) with your family in tow, why don't you be the one that "experiments" with your loved ones.

good swing...ball one

 

[NotAnMD]

"disadvantaged status"...swing...and a miss by a mile!

marzd pass that chicken

That's what it's all about, right? Righting the wrongs of hundreds of years of injustice that equate to an inherent disadvantage. Or am I missing something here?

But I would like to hear a proponent of AA explain to me why it's fair for URM's from wealthy families to receive preference concerning admissions and scholarship money.

(and btw riceman...you're neck deep in it, sports fan)

 

[happydays]

First, I don't think you can assume that's what she feels. Second, you should know that most people would feel extremely uncomfortable checking the disadvantaged box. And that's probably a good thing, because our culture of victims (which has nothing to do with race) is a sad thing.

Everyone's a victim these days. Example abound.
Sure, there are people that really should check that box. I can only imagine. But, even the ones that should probably don't. Because if they've gotten that far, they've learned not to focus on their obstacles. Rather, I'm sure they see those as minor hurdles to be ran over, around, through, or under.

first, I said "if she feels..." not "you feel, so you...." I hope this is clear.

Second, if people feel they are at a disadvantage, they should let the adcoms know. This way, no one can complain about "not being on equal ground" later on. You can't justify anger if you've been given the opportunity to prevent it. I'm not talking about shyrem, but I'm talking about the entire applicant pool.

 

[riceman04]

That's what it's all about, right? Righting the wrongs of hundreds of years of injustice that equate to an inherent disadvantage. Or am I missing something here?

But I would like to hear a proponent of AA explain to me why it's fair for URM's from wealthy families to receive preference concerning admissions and scholarship money.

(and btw riceman...you're neck deep in it, sports fan)

I am a proponent of the current system, but I recognize that changes to it must be made.
This system was not put in place to try and right the wrongs of the past (well not directly)...we just need greater representation in medicine (especially within our own communities)

haha I'm still in my lawn chair

 

[notdeadyet]

But I would like to hear a proponent of AA explain to me why it's fair for URM's from wealthy families to receive preference concerning admissions and scholarship money.

AA does not exist just to give opportunities to those who need it, but to establish role models from under-represented groups. AA tries to help establish more leaders of color to help inspire other people of color.

You can like it or you can not like it. I'm just trying to point something out, no interest in debating.

If there's any MODs on this thread, any chance we could set up an AA subforum? There's more traffic on threads that rehash what is AA, what's an URM, why do they get all these great breaks, etc. Much more traffic than what's currently on some of the subforums.

 

[star22]

This post begs the question...

Is it fair for URM's who come from wealthy, affluent backgrounds to benefit from disadvantaged status?

Just to clarify, being a URM is separate from the disadvantaged section of AMCAS. However, 4 of the 5 URM applicants I have known have come from wealthy backgrounds and still benefit from their URM status.

 

[gostudy]

Just some quick notes.

1. Everyone that is new to this debate should seriously go and read the forum link NewtonBohr posted before coming here and posting again. It has every AA argument known to many from all angles.

2. I cringe when people mention the token black kid from rich parents who got in based on AA. That's not good science. Imagine during a PhD dissertation a student argues his point by saying "this one time I heard of there being apoptosis in these cells. I don't have any evidence, but I've just heard." By all means if you are going to make statements like these please provide some statistics.

3. Notdead, thank you for your post regarding black role models in medicine. Most non-URMs miss this point completely and unfortunately will never get it. Perception is reality folks. Turn on the TV. When do you see blacks? Singing, dancing, rapping, running, and dunking. Sure you'll have your Condis and Baraks. But these are the EXCEPTION. If any of you have been around inner city kids you know what I'm talking about. Ask them if they know a black doctor, lawyer, bussiness person (that doesn't sell drugs) and they'll look at you like you're crazy. Perception is reality.

4. In the end, non-URMs will never know what it means to be black in this country unless...you suddenly become black! That's why I encourage each of you if you are truly passionate about this issue to check out this show that has been airing on FX for a few weeks now. It will be airing tonight at 10/9 central: Black White . It may just change the way you look at things.

 

[Hope2010]

...However, 4 of the 5 URM applicants I have known have come from wealthy backgrounds and still benefit from their URM status.

In what way do they benefit?


...on a completely tangential note, your post reminded me of those commercials where 4 out of 5 dentists recommend Trident. *sigh* Television has ruined my ability to carry on an adult conversation. 😳

 

[FuchaDoc]

Just some quick notes.

1. Everyone that is new to this debate should seriously go and read the forum link NewtonBohr posted before coming here and posting again. It has every AA argument known to many from all angles.

2. I cringe when people mention the token black kid from rich parents who got in based on AA. That's not good science. Imagine during a PhD dissertation a student argues his point by saying "this one time I heard of there being apoptosis in these cells. I don't have any evidence, but I've just heard." By all means if you are going to make statements like these please provide some statistics.

3. Notdead, thank you for your post regarding black role models in medicine. Most non-URMs miss this point completely and unfortunately will never get it. Perception is reality folks. Turn on the TV. When do you see blacks? Singing, dancing, rapping, running, and dunking. Sure you'll have your Condis and Baraks. But these are the EXCEPTION. If any of you have been around inner city kids you know what I'm talking about. Ask them if they know a black doctor, lawyer, bussiness person (that doesn't sell drugs) and they'll look at you like you're crazy. Perception is reality.

4. In the end, non-URMs will never know what it means to be black in this country unless...you suddenly become black! That's why I encourage each of you if you are truly passionate about this issue to check out this show that has been airing on FX for a few weeks now. It will be airing tonight at 10/9 central: Black White . It may just change the way you look at things.

Gostudy, I'm a URM and I dont want to get started on this forum, but you are very right about ROLE MODELS!!! URM youth need ROLE MODELS besides "stars" that's one of the main things I look forward to while in med school and once I graduate being a role model for these kids.

 

[infiniti]

I've been experimenting since 1984 and no, I don't see security guards checking every skinny white boy for guns because the vast majority of all psychopathic killers (the type that just kills everybody because a girl turned them down) are middle to upperclass white men (or should I say boys).

I posed the question to show that there are many angles and things to consider when thinking about these issues (things other than, I am a poor white kid, why don't I get any advantage).

Just so you know, it is the same rational (the, I don't want to experiment with my family or coworkers line of thinking) that certain employees use when they turn down qualified applicants who have black or ethnic names.

If you don't think there is substancial racial discrimination in America (as most SDNer's tend to believe), then we can't really have a meaningful conversation. The first step would be for you to get educated about the topic, then we can talk.

I am a minority and I thought I had it bad until I saw what others are going through. Believe me, URM or not, we have a lot to learn about race relations in America.

You are also right about people wanting to see other people like them. It is th reason why Television is all of a sudden including minority members. Things have started changing. I wonder where TV would be in say, 10 years.

 

[NotAnMD]

AA does not exist just to give opportunities to those who need it, but to establish role models from under-represented groups. AA tries to help establish more leaders of color to help inspire other people of color.

You can like it or you can not like it. I'm just trying to point something out, no interest in debating.

If there's any MODs on this thread, any chance we could set up an AA subforum? There's more traffic on threads that rehash what is AA, what's an URM, why do they get all these great breaks, etc. Much more traffic than what's currently on some of the subforums.

Is this to say that URM's can't have non-URM's as role models and vice versa? Because that would be extremely racist and closed-minded. (and I do realize that this is not your point, but it is a reasonable assumption from this line of thinking)

Furthermore, the whole role model argument transcends the mere concept of leading by example. URM's who benefit from AA are officially expected to then, once in a position of influence, give prefernetial treatment to people of their race. That, by definition, is also racism. Shouldn't our goal be to tear down the barriers of color, rather than create them?

 

[MarzMD]

I posted this article in the "Everyone Forum" but I think people are scared to comment on it. I think it is relevant to this topic though. What do you guys think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/o...all&adxnnlx=1144166615-HWW6yURpwFJhE51IKg6NXw

 

[star22]

In what way do they benefit?


...on a completely tangential note, your post reminded me of those commercials where 4 out of 5 dentists recommend Trident. *sigh* Television has ruined my ability to carry on an adult conversation. 😳

I sort of thought that too after I wrote it.

First of all, one of my friends is first generation from Peru and he learned English in middle school and his family is pretty poor. So, in his case, I think it is cool that med schools appreciate his background (eventhough his numbers may not be as stellar).

The worst URM situation I know of though is a guy who has one grandmother that is native hawaiian (he is 75% white), his parents are very wealthy (one doctor, one business exec) he has a 26 MCAT, 3.4 GPA, he has 6 acceptances so far and a 30,000/year "merit scholarship". And when he was studying for the MCAT he used to say how he was "just shooting for 8s since he was a URM". 😱

I know a few other URM who also have had competely normal (or better) opportunities, but have gotten into multiple med schools with 26-30 MCAT and standard grades and ECs. So when I say that they have benefited from being a URM, I just think their applications wouldn't have been as competetive if they were asain or white.

 

[ShyRem]

That "black white" tv show. I watched about 20 minutes of it, and quite frankly was very offended. I was offended that someone had to "learn to speak black". I know plenty of black people who speak grammatically correct English, and I personally see the "black speech" (I am offended even typing that phrase) not being a racial issue, but an educational issue. I found it appalling that the poor grammar was being excused as a racial issue. BTW: I also know plenty of white people who have disgustingly poor grammar. I don't view them as "speaking black". I view them as uneducated, whether they be black, white, pink, purple, or green. I think several issues that have been viewed as AA issues that are, in reality, socio-economic issues.

As for the disadvantaged question: personally, I'd rather not even apply to something than admit I have a disability or a disadvantage: judge me on my merits. Judge me on my character. Judge me on my work. I would really not feel good about myself if I thought I got somewhere just to fill a quota for disabled/disadvantaged. If I couldn't handle the work, I wouldn't apply.

 

[FuchaDoc]

I sort of thought that too after I wrote it.

First of all, one of my friends is first generation from Peru and he learned English in middle school and his family is pretty poor. So, in his case, I think it is cool that med schools appreciate his background (eventhough his numbers may not be as stellar).

The worst URM situation I know of though is a guy who has one grandmother that is native hawaiian (he is 75% white), his parents are very wealthy (one doctor, one business exec) he has a 26 MCAT, 3.4 GPA, he has 6 acceptances so far and a 30,000/year "merit scholarship". And when he was studying for the MCAT he used to say how he was "just shooting for 8s since he was a URM". 😱

I know a few other URM who also have had competely normal (or better) opportunities, but have gotten into multiple med schools with 26-30 MCAT and standard grades and ECs. So when I say that they have benefited from being a URM, I just think their applications wouldn't have been as competetive if they were asain or white.

And that honestly pisses me off because that's what reaaly gets the non-urm and urm student upset when someone abuses the system!

 

[autoimmunity]

3. Notdead, thank you for your post regarding black role models in medicine. Most non-URMs miss this point completely and unfortunately will never get it. Perception is reality folks. Turn on the TV. When do you see blacks? Singing, dancing, rapping, running, and dunking. Sure you'll have your Condis and Baraks. But these are the EXCEPTION. If any of you have been around inner city kids you know what I'm talking about. Ask them if they know a black doctor, lawyer, bussiness person (that doesn't sell drugs) and they'll look at you like you're crazy. Perception is reality.

4. In the end, non-URMs will never know what it means to be black in this country unless...you suddenly become black! That's why I encourage each of you if you are truly passionate about this issue to check out this show that has been airing on FX for a few weeks now. It will be airing tonight at 10/9 central: Black White . It may just change the way you look at things.

I love basketball (no seriously) and I wish my race had more representation in that sport. The only person I really have to look up to is Yao Ming, who mind you doesn't play my position and thereby doesn't really interest me. I sometimes wish there could be AA in college hoops or even the NBA.

Also, URM status is not strictly limited to those who are black. There are a ton of other minorities. Just like you say I'll never know what it means to be black, you'll never know what it means to be me.

 

[gostudy]

That "black white" tv show. I watched about 20 minutes of it, and quite frankly was very offended. I was offended that someone had to "learn to speak black". I know plenty of black people who speak grammatically correct English, and I personally see the "black speech" (I am offended even typing that phrase) not being a racial issue, but an educational issue. I found it appalling that the poor grammar was being excused as a racial issue. BTW: I also know plenty of white people who have disgustingly poor grammar. I don't view them as "speaking black". I view them as uneducated, whether they be black, white, pink, purple, or green. I think several issues that have been viewed as AA issues that are, in reality, socio-economic issues.

Having poor grammar has very little to do with "speaking black." Bad grammar has to do with not knowing how to speak "mainstream."

More than anything talking black includes certain intonations and colloquialisms. Think of it as "talking Southern" or "talking like a New Englander."

It's much like the Spanish language in that people from different countries speak a different blend of Spanish. And those that are educated are able to speak "mainstream" Spanish when necessary. In the same way I speak mainstream English in a professional setting (which means when I'm around a bunch of white people). But when I'm with my peoples or the fam, I'll speak black English. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just how we do. And it's not even about bad grammar. If I'm communicating to someone that speaks the same dialect as me, who cares if somebody else can't understand it?

However, there is still a need for people to learn how to speak mainstream. Speaking mainstream has nothing to do with speaking white black or whatever. It has to do with communicating in such a way that most people can understand you.

 

[gostudy]

Just like you say I'll never know what it means to be black, you'll never know what it means to be me.

You're right I won't. But, I'm open to learn about your experiences from your perspective.

 

[NotAnMD]

I love basketball (no seriously) and I wish my race had more representation in that sport. The only person I really have to look up to is Yao Ming, who mind you doesn't play my position and thereby doesn't really interest me. I sometimes wish there could be AA in college hoops or even the NBA.

Dude, you've got Steve Nash . . .

Oh, but wait, he's a Canadian so you can't look up to him either. He probably wouldn't even want you to get enjoyment out of watching him . . . his viewing pleasure is preferentially reserved for people of his ethnic background.

 

[autoimmunity]

You're right I won't. But, I'm open to learn about your experiences from your perspective.

Same here. 👍 🙂

 

[Vizsla]

And that honestly pisses me off because that's what reaaly gets the non-urm and urm student upset when someone abuses the system!

but are they "abusing" the system? AA is intended for those who are a minority in the medical field. Technically, they are allowed to take advantage all they want...and plenty of students do. Are you telling me that if you were a minority and came from a very well to do family and had access to every educational opportunity that your non-minority peers had, you wouldn't still assign yourself URM status when filling out AMCAS??

 

[Sundarban1]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game. It's the system that is broken, not the people.

 

[gostudy]

I love basketball (no seriously) and I wish my race had more representation in that sport. The only person I really have to look up to is Yao Ming, who mind you doesn't play my position and thereby doesn't really interest me. I sometimes wish there could be AA in college hoops or even the NBA.

I like country music. The only person I have to look up to is Cowboy Troy.

Medical school admissions like who wins a CMA or who plays in the NBA is a subjective proccess. All of these are sellers market for adcoms, CMAs, NBA. This means these entities get to make the rules for those who want to participate.

 

[NotAnMD]

Seriously though...Steve Nash is really good.

 

[autoimmunity]

Dude, you've got Steve Nash . . .

Oh, but wait, he's a Canadian so you can't look up to him either. He probably wouldn't even want you to get enjoyment out of watching him . . . his viewing pleasure is preferentially reserved for people of his ethnic background.

It would be nice to see an asian at the shooting guard or point guard position. There was one that caught on with the Suns earlier this season or the last, but he stunk and was subsequently dropped.

I don't need an asian URM in the NBA to serve as a basketball role model. There are many great players out there. I agree with one of your previous posts.

 

[gostudy]

I don't need an asian URM in the NBA to serve as a basketball role model. There are many great players out there. I agree with one of your previous posts.

But a lot of people in China do. Do you have any idea how basketball has taken off in China as a result of Yao Ming?

 

[NotAnMD]

I don't need an asian URM in the NBA to serve as a basketball role model. There are many great players out there. I agree with one of your previous posts.

Thanks, I agree with me too. (hugs all around)

 

[NotAnMD]

But a lot of people in China do. Do you have any idea how basketball has taken off in China as a result of Yao Ming?

Well that's because Yao reserves a certain number of spots in his fan club each year specifically for chinese people.

 

[ladyballa1492]

something that i posted before about this, and i think its worth posting again (though a bit of a curve ball):

i'm really tired of all this talk of URMS taking spots.

According to Iserson's Getting Into Residency (the residency "bible"):

The number of black physicians has not changed much over the past 70 years. There are only 50 doctors per 100,000 blacks in America. Of these doctors, 25% GRADUATED FROM EITHER HOWARD, MEHARRY, OR MOREHOUSE.

That's only 3 med. schools people. Let's face it, Howard is not Harvard (no offense), so perhaps the numbers (gpas, mcats) are a bit skewed for minorities. If you took the stats of minorities that go to the top 20 schools, i don't think that the disparity in grades between urm's and the whites would be particularly significant. As a URM who went to an Ivy League school, I am led to believe that in 2005 no urms from my institution who got into harvard and other top schools had less than a 34 mcat. and many of them were able to claim disadvantaged status.

hmm, and maybe more non-minorities should apply to meharry, howard, and morehouse??

just my .02 cents

 

[notdeadyet]

Is this to say that URM's can't have non-URM's as role models and vice versa? Because that would be extremely racist and closed-minded. (and I do realize that this is not your point, but it is a reasonable assumption from this line of thinking)

(I promsied I wouldn't do this...) Okay, one response, then I have to get off of this thread. Threads like these are like reruns of a Three's Company or other show you didn't really like but have seen so many times, you're almost tempted to watch it for nostalgia's sake....

You can have whatever role model you want, NotAnMD. But the closer one can identify with a role model, the more effective that role model can be. The more similarities, the more you get the "if s/he can do it, so can I".

As for this being racist thinking, no, it isn't. I have no idea what your logic is there. But don't bother. I don't play the "If you don't support AA, you're a racist" game (insufficient evidence to make that conclusion) nor the "Ah, your support of AA is racist... hee-hee...." (more of the same).

URM's who benefit from AA are officially expected to then, once in a position of influence, give prefernetial treatment to people of their race.

Site your source. The only time I've heard the argument "You benefited from AA, therefore you must base your treatment on this group of people" is from folks arguing against AA.

Folks, if you aren't benefiting from AA, please don't argue about what effect the program has on you. You're not really qualified.

 

[autoimmunity]

I like country music. The only person I have to look up to is Cowboy Troy.

Medical school admissions like who wins a CMA or who plays in the NBA is a subjective proccess. All of these are sellers market for adcoms, CMAs, NBA. This means these entities get to make the rules for those who want to participate.

I understand what you're saying. I don't have to necessarily agree entirely with those rules though do I?

Please don't respond with "then do something about it." I think having an open dialogue is doing something about it.

 

[autoimmunity]

I understand what you're saying. I don't have to necessarily agree entirely with those rules though do I?

Please don't respond with "then do something about it." I think having an open dialogue is doing something about it.

And furthermore, what would be your response if AA was abolished and they all responded with, "Sorry buddy, it's a seller's market."

 

[gostudy]

(I promsied I wouldn't do this...) Okay, one response, then I have to get off of this thread. Threads like these are like reruns of a Three's Company or other show you didn't really like but have seen so many times, you're almost tempted to watch it for nostalgia's sake....

So right. I'm officially off this thread. If any of you have any issues regarding AA/URM I suggest you actually talk to adcom members. I know I have and it has opened my eyes to the real issues being addressed by adcoms. After all these people, not us on SDN, are those most qualified to discuss such issues with you.

Have fun!

 

[infiniti]

I read the article and couldn't agree more. There is certainly a lot of discrimination against minorities but we also can't deny the self destructive patterns apparent in these communities.

It is heart breaking to see how the minority community as a whole is turning out. There used to be a time when people would get their hands cut off just because they read a book. They knew the importance of education and sought out after it even means loosing their lives. These communities used to be all about education at some point. Somewhere along the way, this message was lost.

This is precisely why the minority members needs minority role models. It isn't because white people can't be role models (some of my greatest inspirations are white), it is just that it strikes a cord to see someone who looks like you doing something you've never thought possible. You also have to remember that a lot of people in some of the communities have no connection whatsoever to a white person. White people don't enter their thoughts until they watch TV, see one e.t.c.

I personally try to show people that it is possible to love hip hop, raggae, know how to speak ebonics and still be successful. It would be suicidal to ask people to give up these things. what should be emphasized is that those things are entertainment and nothing more. There is time to get your groove on and there is time to hit the stacks. Btw, hip hop (old school here) and raggae are mad cool. 👍

 

[MarzMD]

Glad someone finally read it. I only hope that those problems are addressed at some point in the near future. What good is a crutch when the underlying problems are never solved?

 

[autoimmunity]

There is time to get your groove on and there is time to hit the stacks. Btw, hip hop (old school here) and raggae are mad cool. 👍

I hate Sean Paul. But I dig the rest.

 

[EndSong]

Okay I'll add my two cents and dive into this... *sigh* I know I'll probably step on toes with this so bear with...

Personally I'm pretty much against AA and allowing URMs in with much lower stats. My personal background is not very different from a financially poor URM despite the fact that I am not one.

I'm asian so people naturally assume that I had very pushy parents who wanted a doctor in the family. This is in fact, not true. I had to push to even allow my family to agree to let me pursue medicine. Most of my family is pretty blue-collar and I'm one of the first generation to seek college-level education. I grew up in a 3rd world country and learned to speak English later. I grew up in a non-English speaking home where we scrapped pennies. Some of the homes I grew up in did not have a functioning toilet, we still used chamber pots. We've done very well for ourselves since 10 years ago though, just for the record.

What bothers me is everyone sees my last name and assumes I must have grown up very well-to-do with an educated family that values higher education like most people with a surname like Nguyen, Li, or Chang. I think the way I grew up might not be unlike people with surnames like Gonzalez. But I also think that people like Gonzalez are getting in even though they have lower academic stats because of AA. AA says to me that it has nothing to do with difficulties growing up, it is something that purely has to do with concessions based on how dark your skin is or whether or 13% Navejo.

 

[MarzMD]

It has to do with politics. If you make it worth the while of politicians to broaden the range of AA, they will. If nobody pushes for it, then it wont happen even if it is "the right thing" to people.

 

[infiniti]

Endsong, go to AAMC and read the reasons why it supports AA. This might help you deal with the dilemma you seem to be facing. Btw, you haven't stepped on any toe because everything you said has been said over and over again on SDN (not that it makes your experience less meaningful- it is always cool to hear stories of people pulling themselves up by the bootstraps).

 

[autoimmunity]

It has to do with politics. If you make it worth the while of politicians to broaden the range of AA, they will. If nobody pushes for it, then it wont happen even if it is "the right thing" to people.

I totally agree.

I think some URMs are just much better at getting out there and having their collective voice heard. The African-American and Latin groups are especially good at this. Other groups aren't as effective. I wonder if it's because such groups don't have enough numbers, perhaps they aren't as motivated about certain topics. I don't know.

 

[NotAnMD]

So right. I'm officially off this thread. If any of you have any issues regarding AA/URM I suggest you actually talk to adcom members. I know I have and it has opened my eyes to the real issues being addressed by adcoms. After all these people, not us on SDN, are those most qualified to discuss such issues with you.

Have fun!

That must have been a traumatic experience, having an admissions person validate a policy that directly benefits you. Hope you were sitting down.

 

[ladyballa1492]

and again -
is there some sort of study or stats available that show the avg, gpa and mcat scores for urm's from top tier medical schools? this will probably make big difference from the "lower" stats that everyone keeps getting upset about.

 

[Brainsucker]

and again -
is there some sort of study or stats available that show the avg, gpa and mcat scores for urm's from top tier medical schools? this will probably make big difference from the "lower" stats that everyone keeps getting upset about.

Med students from "top tier" med schools all tend to have terrific numbers, terrific ecs, and terrific essays. It's hard to compare, especially as different schools have different philosophies. (WashU is known around here as a "numbers *****.") But I don't see the point of restricting the discussion to 20 or so schools. There are plenty of other great schools that are nearly as hard to get into.

 

[star22]

Med students from "top tier" med schools all tend to have terrific numbers, terrific ecs, and terrific essays. It's hard to compare, especially as different schools have different philosophies. (WashU is known around here as a "numbers *****.") But I don't see the point of restricting the discussion to 20 or so schools. There are plenty of other great schools that are nearly as hard to get into.

According to MSAR the lowest accepted MCAT scores at the top schools were (not to say that these were necessarily URM scores):
VR/PS/BS
WashU 6/9/9
Harvard 7/7/8
Hopkins 6/8/8
Stanford 4/8/8
UCSF 6/7/8
Yale 6/8/9
Penn 7/8/9
Duke 6/7/8
Mayo 6/8/8