URM acceptance rates - confused

[Newton Bohr MD]

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Sadly its not just white supremacists unfortunatly and yes it isnt PC (which by the way I dispise because there is no way you can have a decent debate while trying to adhere.)

Heres a way I can sort of buy this arguement, again Ive heard it a lot of times and I still dont really buy it but I see the logic in there because of my belief that everything happens for a reason aka silver lining to a cloud, anyways here we go:

First the textbook trajedy with a silver lining:

Holocaust=horrible but the silver lining Isreal is created in direct response to the horror the western world had over the Holocaust.

And now the slavery one:

Slavery=horrible but siliver lining is that a lot of African Americans whouldnt be in the US right now if their ancestors whouldnt have been forceable abducted and forced into slaved labor here

Notice that neither of these things actually excuse the action, but in the long run the agrument states they did produce a tangible good (the reason I cannot fully believe this is because if slave traders hadnt decimated most west african socities who knows how different Africa could have been, it may have even been a better place to live then the US, unfortunatly we will never know.)

I dont think the people that suffered in katrina are doing much better than the average African...

 

[infiniti]

No one is saying people can't know one another. That is just a little figment of your imagination. The fact that you think everyone knows everyone and everything is yippy tells me how little you know about this things.

Look man, I obviously have no idea what happened concerning race relations that pissed you off so badly, but not everyone has such a hard time relating to people with a different skin color.

For myself, and I think for most people, this isn't even an issue about loosing "my spot" to a URM with lower stats. And everyone is aware that there are a ton of URM's who more than earned their place.Nor is this about slowing minorities down in their quest to better themselves or denying care to underserved populations. I oppose AA in medical school admissions and scholarships on principle alone. And it stimulates me intellectually to see what people of a different perspective have to say. But when I read posts like yours, it makes me concerned about issues bigger than AA, because it's obviously coming from a deep feeling of division between races. Not everyone thinks that way, and most of us going to med school are huge idealists. Though I oppose AA, I am still going to be working side by side with guys like you, serving the underserved (one has nothing to do with the other). But you need to be aware that a ton of people have a problem with the inherent inequality of AA for very valid, well articulated reasons. And we are the same people who are going to voice those opinions when we are your colleagues. So you might want to come up with better arguments than "you don't know me" and "you can't effectively treat the minorities of america". That just fuels the division that you are so upset about.

Actually, I would be a little worried about working with people like you. I am afraid you will become one of those doctors who lack a good grip on social issues. To be a good doctor across the board, you will have to understand racial issues and the implications they have on health care. Pretending to be idealistic (I say pretending because I find it hard to believe that you think "most people" will agree with you that everything is yippy) will not get you anywhere in medicine.

You said something about the medical profession being idealistic. I think you've been looking at the wrong profession. Medicine can afford to be anything but idealistic. Good medicine always takes social implications into account. Examples of this abounds.

In terms of me having a horrible experience and being very angry at the world. I guess people automatically become angry and frustrated when their opinions happen to be different from yours.


If you think this discussion is heated, then you need to head down and see some of the discussions I have with my (non black and often black) friends. We argue vigorously, feel the pain, resent each others opinion, enjoy the anticipation, move on and continue with our lives. It is part of the learning experience.

The fact that you think I have a difficult time relating to "other skin colors" just because I have a different view tells me that you yourself might be suffering from the illusion that you have great relationships with people of other colors. Perhaps your friends just don't discuss those issues with you because they don't think you would understand. This happens more often than you think. It is the same reason half of SDNers know "a rich black guy who has the same opportunity they had" when it is indeed (by far) more likely that you would meet a "a black guy who lacked half of the opportunities you had".

 

[WhatUpDoc!]

Its high time we changed racial AA to economic AA and focus on the people who truely need the break to get out of poverty.

Blah, whatever 😴

If that change were to happen then ya'll anti-AA whiners would start b1tch3n about poor folk with lower stats taking spots from ya'll. Yeah, making AA solely socioeconomic sounds good on paper, but that'll just open up another can of worms.

(of course, I have posted this in another AA thread, here it is again for posterity 👍 )

 

[gostudy]

And now the slavery one:

Slavery=horrible but siliver lining is that a lot of African Americans whouldnt be in the US right now if their ancestors whouldnt have been forceable abducted and forced into slaved labor here

Ok, so I thought I was off this thread (and for all intents and purposes I am) but this caught my eye as a common misconception.

Very very few black Africans were "abducted" from West Africa during the slave trade. The great majority were sold to white Europeans by tribal chiefs and leaders. And people often forget that a small percentage of slaves in America were actually African. The great majority of slaves were born right here in the Americas.

Hey the blame for slavery is spread all around.

 

[NotAnMD]

No one is saying people can't know one another. That is just a little figment of your imagination. The fact that you think everyone knows everyone and everything is yippy tells me how little you know about this things.


Actually, I would be a little worried about working with people like you. I am afraid you will become one of those doctors who lack a good grip on social issues. To be a good doctor across the board, you will have to understand racial issues and the implications they have on health care. Pretending to be idealistic (I say pretending because I find it hard to believe that you think "most people" will agree with you that everything is yippy) will not get you anywhere in medicine.

You said something about the medical profession being idealistic. I think you've been looking at the wrong profession. Medicine can afford to be anything but idealistic. Good medicine always takes social implications into account. Examples of this abounds.

In terms of me having a horrible experience and being very angry at the world. I guess people automatically become angry and frustrated when their opinions happen to be different from yours.


If you think this discussion is heated, then you need to head down and see some of the discussions I have with my (non black and often black) friends. We argue vigorously, feel the pain, resent each others opinion, enjoy the anticipation, move on and continue with our lives. It is part of the learning experience.

The fact that you think I have a difficult time relating to "other skin colors" just because I have a different view tells me that you yourself might be suffering from the illusion that you have great relationships with people of other colors. Perhaps your friends just don't discuss those issues with you because they don't think you would understand. This happens more often than you think. It is the same reason half of SDNers know "a rich black guy who has the same opportunity they had" when it is indeed (by far) more likely that you would meet a "a black guy who lacked half of the opportunities you had".

The basis of the arguments you are making tend to involve discrediting the life experiences of those who disagree with you (like mine, for example) and then glorifying your own. Go back and reread some of your posts. Nobody is doing that to you. I fully acknowledge that your life may have been hard and you may have faced adversity, just because you claim to have. Our life experiences, and the knowledge we gain from them, is all we have in this world.

Moving on...so sweet point about not wanting to work with a future doctor like me because I strongly oppose AA and am not afraid to talk about it...that'll help out a lot later. Especially because I have no problem working with a pro AA person like you at all...stop trying to be such a martyr. You're obviously well educated (probably at a school equally or even more "prestigious" than mine) and doing well enough for yourself that you're going to be a doc.

Concerning your ignorant blanket statements about my experience with minorities, I could sit here and tell you my life story....where I live, who are my friends, the people I date, who I work with, volunteer with, so on and so forth (all of which have minorities who I have real relationships with)...but you would just tell me that those aren't meaningful and that I am deluted in thinking I could know a minority. That's pathetic and "socially incompetent". However, even if you did actually see my life and, by some miracle, accepted those things, you would then call me an "exception" and move on. Keep it up man...you are gonna be pissed off the rest of your life.

You need to accept that people can intellectually oppose AA, and still be compassionate and culturally competent. They are not mutually exclusive.

I like the soap box though...you should make a derby racer out of it!!!

 

[autoimmunity]

I like the soap box though...you should make a derby racer out of it!!!

You kill me!

 

[MarzMD]

This thread makes me want to shoot myself.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

This thread makes me want to shoot myself.

BTW that was said on this thread...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=245260 😉

 

[infiniti]

NotanMD,
You apparently lack the ability differentiate between a solid argument and your flunctuating emotions. I do say the soap box is all yours. Isn't this apparent.

I responded about working with someone like you because you explicitly stated that "when I read posts like yours, it makes me concerned about issues bigger than AA, because it's obviously coming from a deep feeling of division between races". Isn't this the dumbest comment ever?

You obviously think there is a deep feeling of racial divide because I disagree with you. This tells me that some of your "extensive URM friends" haven't disagreed with your rather idealistic and non practical view of racial issues in America.

You went on and on about the person you date , talk to blah blah blah. Do you want a cookie. Seriously, if you think your "extensive social circle" (sigh) reflects what goes on in America, you are more delusional than I thought.

I am not very good at making people all nice and fluffy. If you want to have a serious discussion with me, you will have to

1) Check your emotions and stop looking for sympathy from me simply because you date or talk to a URM. Dating or interacting with URM doesn't make you an expert on this issue (this is a very popular albeit lame excuse on SDN). Understanding that America has bad race relations is the equivalent of learning ABC. It is just step one and you won't know how to put words together unless you know your foundations.


2) Realize that one can have great relationship with people across the board and still have an objective view of the world.

3) I am not pro AA, so stop making that assumption. I support AA because it is the best system we have right not. It has flaws and I will be more than happy to see it get tossed as soon as a better idea develops. Furthermore, your posts totally miss the point of AA in medicine.

4)I don't mind that you are against AA (many of my friends are). I just can't stand when you use the "token black guy" or "my calc class where everyone gets along" argument (which are all exceptions to what reality tell us- don't take my word for it. Google away).

Finally, I find it hard to argue with you when you apparently don't understand what is considered by most to be general knowledge. I suggest that you do some reasearch into the topic. I appologize if some of my post were a little mean. It wasn't the intention. I just think we should cut the crap, stop pretending and have meaningful discussions about the topic.

 

[1Path]

Very very few black Africans were "abducted" from West Africa during the slave trade. The great majority were sold to white Europeans by tribal chiefs and leaders..

Supply and demand. Where there is no demand, there will be no supply! 😉

 

[eastsidaz]

Basically, I've gleaned that what it comes down to on SDN is this: you are not capable of in any way understanding AA or race in America unless you are, yourself, a URM. By default, all URMs are experts on the subject. The rest of us are detached and delusional, and, no matter what our experiences with URMs are, we just don't get it.

Ignore the fact that some URMs oppose the AA status quo.

Also ignore the fact that many of those receiving direct and substantial benefits from AA may be a bit biased in terms of their willingness to abandon the system.

Get it?

 

[KAI1927]

Basically, I've gleaned that what it comes down to on SDN is this: you are not capable of in any way understanding AA or race in America unless you are, yourself, a URM. By default, all URMs are experts on the subject. The rest of us are detached and delusional, and, no matter what our experiences with URMs are, we just don't get it.

Ignore the fact that some URMs oppose the AA status quo.

Also ignore the fact that many of those receiving direct and substantial benefits from AA may be a bit biased in terms of their willingness to abandon the system.

Get it?

That about sums up most of the pro-AA arguments on this thread. But everybody is really spinning their wheels, its like arguing about religion or politics; wouldn't it be more productive talking about Chuck Norris?

 

[skypilot]

Granted, the 13-15th amendments were never fully followed until the 1960s, but you werent alive to experience that either (and neither were any of your classmates.) .

Not true. I was alive! And I remember busing and desegregation. 🙂

 

[autoimmunity]

Basically, I've gleaned that what it comes down to on SDN is this: you are not capable of in any way understanding AA or race in America unless you are, yourself, a URM. By default, all URMs are experts on the subject. The rest of us are detached and delusional, and, no matter what our experiences with URMs are, we just don't get it.

Ignore the fact that some URMs oppose the AA status quo.

Also ignore the fact that many of those receiving direct and substantial benefits from AA may be a bit biased in terms of their willingness to abandon the system.

Get it?

You pretty much summed it up. Don't forget to add that we're bigots. 🙁

 

[NotAnMD]

Ok Inifiniti...

you want rationale, here it is...

If you're this involved in SDN pre-alo, you are a med student, a new grad or about to graduate and looking to attend medical school. Great. As stated before, you are probably well educated and have done well enough in school to be considered for acceptance. Great. Now myself and many non-URM's are in the exact same boat. We have all received functionally equivalent preparation and have nearly identicle resumes.

So, as touchdown has eluded to, we can conclude one of 2 things. Either you have worked as hard as non URM's, earned your way, and fully deserve the world of opportunity that awaits you. OR you have been deficient in some respect, and have required help at one or more steps along the way. However, in either case now you have absolutely equivalent status and the playing field is level.

It is my opinion, and that of many others, that in either case at this point (applying to grad school) you are not ENTITLED to hand outs. And for the case of this argument, I will assume that you got where you are completely on your own...so you're as capable as anyone else, right? At this point, I believe that you have the ability to make it without the extra push from "the man". If I am wrong and you need that additional advantage, feel free to correct me.

 

[Elastase]

I don't understand this discussion, so much finger pointing... its just wrong.

The AAMC AND Admissions from almost every school have decided that it is IMPORTANT to review both URM and disadvantaged as factors for admissions. It is important because they see it being important to gain equal healthcare and equal access to healthcare for everyone. There are reasons why all-star minorities applicants are recruited, there are just not enough of them to go around. These reasons are obviously important, discussing them and trying to point fingers is really wasting you time. Go out there and attempt to help disadvantaged people (URM and non-URM) get ahead both for college and professional schools. Until there is equal representation (or at least close to it) from each cultural/ethnic background in medicine and other top professions, the URM status will exist to SLIGHTLY help level the playing field...

 

[Elastase]

If you're this involved in SDN pre-alo, you are a med student, a new grad or about to graduate and looking to attend medical school. Great. As stated before, you are probably well educated and have done well enough in school to be considered for acceptance. Great. Now myself and many non-URM's are in the exact same boat. We have all received functionally equivalent preparation and have nearly identicle resumes.

So, as touchdown has eluded to, we can conclude one of 2 things. Either you have worked as hard as non URM's, earned your way, and fully deserve the world of opportunity that awaits you. OR you have been deficient in some respect, and have required help at one or more steps along the way. However, in either case now you have absolutely equivalent status and the playing field is level.

It is my opinion, and that of many others, that in either case at this point (applying to grad school) you are not ENTITLED to hand outs. And for the case of this argument, I will assume that you got where you are completely on your own...so you're as capable as anyone else, right? At this point, I believe that you have the ability to make it without the extra push from "the man". If I am wrong and you need that additional advantage, feel free to correct me.

That makes pretty good sense, once you are at that level playing field there should be no more "hand-outs".

The only thing is that MOST URMs have not gone this route, and that is what the AAMC sees. Yes, there are some URMs (sometimes of mixed backgrounds) that have grown up in a nurturing, and academically positive background. However, I really believe that most URMs, for example Latino where specific culture can see WORK, getting a job, being MORE important than education.

 

[Touchdown]

So, as touchdown has eluded to, we can conclude one of 2 things. Either you have worked as hard as non URM's, earned your way, and fully deserve the world of opportunity that awaits you. OR you have been deficient in some respect, and have required help at one or more steps along the way. However, in either case now you have absolutely equivalent status and the playing field is level.

Thats twisting my words a little, what I was talking about was how some people in the same reply state that all the URM's they know have the same stats as normal apps and that URMs deserved special breaks in admission because of what they have gone through. You obviously cant have equal stats and yet still neeed extra help. Anyways just wanted to clear that up, Im washing my hands of this thread no one ever seems to want to debate this issue, they simply recycle talking points (Its not fair! You enslaved my people! Your'e lazy! etc.) I think that neither side is correct, there are some people in this world who deserve AA, those people being the poor which just so happens to contain a disproportionate amount of URMs at the moment (which is why AA hasnt been changed from racial to economic yet, that will happen in about 10-20 years when URMs normalize along economic lines.)
The poor need that help due to: the horrible condtions of their primary education schools, having to come up with the money to pay for higher education, and (more often then middle and upper class people but certainly not allways) a bad family situation.

With that parting comment I wash myself of this thread.

 

[skypilot]

absolutely equivalent status and the playing field is level.

It is my opinion, and that of many others, that in either case at this point (applying to grad school) you are not ENTITLED to hand outs. And for the case of this argument, I will assume that you got where you are completely on your own...so you're as capable as anyone else, right? At this point, I believe that you have the ability to make it without the extra push from "the man". If I am wrong and you need that additional advantage, feel free to correct me.

Everybody needs a little help. Some people get it from a rich uncle. Some people get it from a relative who is a doctor who counsels them. Or a physician neighbor who helps them get a volunteer position at a hospital.

Some people get it by forking the money over for a Kaplan course. Some people don't have relatives who are physicians, or rich uncles. And insidious discrimination and the residue from past discrimination still exists in the U.S. All you have to do to realize this is to read this thread. 🙂

 

[lilnoelle]

Although the system is not completely fair, there exists an abundance of programs and measures that are designed to resolve the imbalance. Just a few of these include scholarships targeting URMs, public outreach programs, and affirmative action at the level of undergraduate education.

I am not an URM, but I am a female that grew up on a farm in rural Iowa. Although these programs may exist, the majority of the people that can be helped by them are not aware of them. I certainly wasn't aware of any programs that were available. I wasn't really aware of the possibility that I could be a physician - as a female, my responsibilities were to my children and not career, according to my parents.
Anyway, my point is, if I was naive to the possibilities for me, how much more for someone who was disadvantaged even more than I was.
I believe that the fact that I grew up on a farm helped me secure a seat in a state university despite the fact that my stats were below average. Some may be angered at this. But the truth is, as many have pointed out, numbers don't mean a lot. I am an intelligent individual and believe I have what it takes to succeed in medical school. The fact that I had an MCAT of 28 instead of 32 or above really has very little to do with my success rate at med school. I am GRATEFUL to have the chance to redeem myself and make my school proud of their choice in accepting me but do not feel that I have "stolen" a seat from someone more deserving.
Truth is, we all tend to find offense in something that disadvantages us. For instance, I had very little padding in my application - therefore, it bothered me during the application cycle that others join clubs and head up organizations just so they look good to adcomms. Others will be irritated with me for getting in with a smaller amount of committee involvement and lower than average stats saying that I used my background to get myself into school. Truth is, I thought my background was a disadvantage to me during the application cycle, the possibility of it being an advantage didn't occur to me until seeing this site (post-interviews).

 

[foo]

According to MSAR the lowest accepted MCAT scores at the top schools were (not to say that these were necessarily URM scores):
VR/PS/BS
WashU 6/9/9
Harvard 7/7/8
Hopkins 6/8/8
Stanford 4/8/8
UCSF 6/7/8
Yale 6/8/9
Penn 7/8/9
Duke 6/7/8
Mayo 6/8/8

I see...

I assume these individuals are "legacy" admissions. Mom or Dad were alumni. Or wealthy parents made a sizeable financial contribution to the school. Schools usually "overlook" poor MCAT scores in such cases... 😉

Is this correct? Am I jumping to conclusions based on the "stereotype" that a sizeable number of "spots" are perhaps reserved for the children of alumni and wealthy donors...

 

[mismd]

According to MSAR the lowest accepted MCAT scores at the top schools were (not to say that these were necessarily URM scores):
VR/PS/BS
WashU 6/9/9
Harvard 7/7/8
Hopkins 6/8/8
Stanford 4/8/8
UCSF 6/7/8
Yale 6/8/9
Penn 7/8/9
Duke 6/7/8
Mayo 6/8/8

But when you include these numbers in this setting you are indirectly implying that it probably belonged to URMs

 

[mismd]

Ok, so I thought I was off this thread (and for all intents and purposes I am) but this caught my eye as a common misconception.

Very very few black Africans were "abducted" from West Africa during the slave trade. The great majority were sold to white Europeans by tribal chiefs and leaders. And people often forget that a small percentage of slaves in America were actually African. The great majority of slaves were born right here in the Americas.

Hey the blame for slavery is spread all around.

I disagree with you. I am from West Africa and yes a lot of slaves were forcibly removed from their homes, some were sold but most were removed. the Republic of Congo actually has a memorial place that actually details what they slaves were put thru including being beaten and forced to change their names.

 

[autoimmunity]

I am not an URM, but I am a female that grew up on a farm in rural Iowa. Although these programs may exist, the majority of the people that can be helped by them are not aware of them. I certainly wasn't aware of any programs that were available. I wasn't really aware of the possibility that I could be a physician - as a female, my responsibilities were to my children and not career, according to my parents.
Anyway, my point is, if I was naive to the possibilities for me, how much more for someone who was disadvantaged even more than I was.
I believe that the fact that I grew up on a farm helped me secure a seat in a state university despite the fact that my stats were below average. Some may be angered at this. But the truth is, as many have pointed out, numbers don't mean a lot. I am an intelligent individual and believe I have what it takes to succeed in medical school. The fact that I had an MCAT of 28 instead of 32 or above really has very little to do with my success rate at med school. I am GRATEFUL to have the chance to redeem myself and make my school proud of their choice in accepting me but do not feel that I have "stolen" a seat from someone more deserving.
Truth is, we all tend to find offense in something that disadvantages us. For instance, I had very little padding in my application - therefore, it bothered me during the application cycle that others join clubs and head up organizations just so they look good to adcomms. Others will be irritated with me for getting in with a smaller amount of committee involvement and lower than average stats saying that I used my background to get myself into school. Truth is, I thought my background was a disadvantage to me during the application cycle, the possibility of it being an advantage didn't occur to me until seeing this site (post-interviews).

Congrats on the acceptance. 🙂

I just have a question regarding your post. You said that you were not aware of the various resources available to you. I think that's very unfortunate. But honestly, who's responsibility is it? Are the opportunities supposed to be given to you or should you have to go out there and find them yourself? The opportunities are there to begin with. The rest, IMO, should be up to you. But I guess this is just going to lead to arguments regarding having the resources to find the resources. In which case, we can agree that the root of the problem is far upstream of AA policies and that a true solution to the dilemma should target that beginning.

 

[George_Clooney]

I see...

I assume these individuals are "legacy" admissions. Mom or Dad were alumni. Or wealthy parents made a sizeable financial contribution to the school. Schools usually "overlook" poor MCAT scores in such cases... 😉

Is this correct? Am I jumping to conclusions based on the "stereotype" that a sizeable number of "spots" are perhaps reserved for the children of alumni and wealthy donors...

Are you serious?

 

[lilnoelle]

Congrats on the acceptance. 🙂

I just have a question regarding your post. You said that you were not aware of the various resources available to you. I think that's very unfortunate. But honestly, who's responsibility is it? Are the opportunities supposed to be given to you or should you have to go out there and find them yourself? The opportunities are there to begin with. The rest, IMO, should be up to you. But I guess this is just going to lead to arguments regarding having the resources to find the resources. In which case, we can agree that the root of the problem is far upstream of AA policies and that a true solution to the dilemma should target that beginning.

Hmmmm... how to answer this. Yes, i believe everyone is ultimately responsible for themself. I also believe that an intelligent person can do about anything they prioritize to do. (Notice I said about) So, the first step is self discovery - what does one want to do with their life. If there is no models/mentors for a person to follow, they will not even discover that particular field as a youth. Basically, that played out for me not discovering medicine until mid college and not realizing I could actually do it until a while after graduation. (discouraging professors/getting married and then immediately pregnant.) Once I decided this is what I wanted, I went about getting it, believing I had very little chance because of my limited experience/unusual upbringing instead of understanding that my upbringing was actually a benefit for me.
So for me, basically my upbringing meant late self discovery, which meant putting three years between schooling and the MCATs, and also studying for the MCATs with an obnoxious 2 year old/being five months pregnant and working 40 hours a week. I feel somewhat justified in saying I would've had a higher MCAT with less going on in my life, but felt the adcom would just say that med school is going to be worse, and lets face it, my two children aren't going to be leaving anytime soon.
I don't really consider myself disadvantaged, nor did I mark disadvantaged on my application. Everyone's life has perks and drawbacks. What I am saying, is if I wasn't aware of the possibilities for me, how much more could someone who came from a truly disadvantaged background not realize there are programs out there to help them.

 

[docturk]

Hmmmm... how to answer this. Yes, i believe everyone is ultimately responsible for themself. I also believe that an intelligent person can do about anything they prioritize to do. (Notice I said about) So, the first step is self discovery - what does one want to do with their life. If there is no models/mentors for a person to follow, they will not even discover that particular field as a youth. Basically, that played out for me not discovering medicine until mid college and not realizing I could actually do it until a while after graduation. (discouraging professors/getting married and then immediately pregnant.) Once I decided this is what I wanted, I went about getting it, believing I had very little chance because of my limited experience/unusual upbringing instead of understanding that my upbringing was actually a benefit for me.
So for me, basically my upbringing meant late self discovery, which meant putting three years between schooling and the MCATs, and also studying for the MCATs with an obnoxious 2 year old/being five months pregnant and working 40 hours a week. I feel somewhat justified in saying I would've had a higher MCAT with less going on in my life, but felt the adcom would just say that med school is going to be worse, and lets face it, my two children aren't going to be leaving anytime soon.
I don't really consider myself disadvantaged, nor did I mark disadvantaged on my application. Everyone's life has perks and drawbacks. What I am saying, is if I wasn't aware of the possibilities for me, how much more could someone who came from a truly disadvantaged background not realize there are programs out there to help them.

I agree with you TOTALLY! I am also a mom (2yr old and 5 yr old). I have been told numerous times that I will not be able to handle med school. I've had people flat out tell me to "go ahead and be a nurse". I am from a disadvantaged background, however I feel my stats outweigh my disadvantaged status. I had my kids very young, but never used them as a crutch or an excuse for poor performance. There are still a lot of stereotypes out there regarding young women of color who have kids early (I had my first my freshman year in college). I've had numerous people who have told me it was impossible......I am now juggling 3 acceptances and on hold at 2 other schools

 

[autoimmunity]

Hmmmm... how to answer this. Yes, i believe everyone is ultimately responsible for themself. I also believe that an intelligent person can do about anything they prioritize to do. (Notice I said about) So, the first step is self discovery - what does one want to do with their life. If there is no models/mentors for a person to follow, they will not even discover that particular field as a youth. Basically, that played out for me not discovering medicine until mid college and not realizing I could actually do it until a while after graduation. (discouraging professors/getting married and then immediately pregnant.) Once I decided this is what I wanted, I went about getting it, believing I had very little chance because of my limited experience/unusual upbringing instead of understanding that my upbringing was actually a benefit for me.
So for me, basically my upbringing meant late self discovery, which meant putting three years between schooling and the MCATs, and also studying for the MCATs with an obnoxious 2 year old/being five months pregnant and working 40 hours a week. I feel somewhat justified in saying I would've had a higher MCAT with less going on in my life, but felt the adcom would just say that med school is going to be worse, and lets face it, my two children aren't going to be leaving anytime soon.
I don't really consider myself disadvantaged, nor did I mark disadvantaged on my application. Everyone's life has perks and drawbacks. What I am saying, is if I wasn't aware of the possibilities for me, how much more could someone who came from a truly disadvantaged background not realize there are programs out there to help them.

So you're in agreement that the problem is upstream of AA? .......... 😕

 

[cfdavid]

I agree with you TOTALLY! I am also a mom (2yr old and 5 yr old). I have been told numerous times that I will not be able to handle med school. I've had people flat out tell me to "go ahead and be a nurse". I am from a disadvantaged background, however I feel my stats outweigh my disadvantaged status. I had my kids very young, but never used them as a crutch or an excuse for poor performance. There are still a lot of stereotypes out there regarding young women of color who have kids early (I had my first my freshman year in college). I've had numerous people who have told me it was impossible......I am now juggling 3 acceptances and on hold at 2 other schools

Congratulations! That's awesome, and you should be proud. When I was in high school I was heavily involved in sports (hockey). So, multiple times per week (including weekends), I was traveling around to practices, games, and tournaments. Needless to say, I wasn't a great student. I remember a high school counselor advising me to pursue a trade or something, not that there's anything wrong with that.

But, in reality, many very successful people had to overcome challenges early on. Examples abound, and I look at people like Jack Welch (legendary GE Chairman) who overcame stuttering problems and possibly ADHD as a young guy. Many, many business leaders (not sure about medicine frankly) were kind of mavericks that may not have excelled under the traditional system of measuring success. Some were even told they wouldn't amount to anything as a result.

The point is that there are so many naysayers out there. Good for you in sticking to your guns. That's why I'm not a big fan of counselors (traditionally). I think they can end up giving advice without really understanding the true fabric of an individual. And the suggestion that a track record need be developed at the age of 15 or 16 is ridiculous.

It cracks me up (I'm a non-trad) when I hear people on here thinking "oh my god, I got an MIP! Is my career in medicine in jeopardy??". lol
So, they f*cked up when they were 18. Chalk it up to a mistake, and move on. And trust me, I don't know too many "goody two-shoes" that really end up being very successful in the real world (or interesting. lol)

Anyway, I digress....lol

 

[lilnoelle]

So you're in agreement that the problem is upstream of AA? .......... 😕

That depends on what your definition of AA is. If its just letting people in because they are of an under representative minory, then I think its wrong. i.e. Doctor's child thats an URM who was given every opportunity and is an unimpressive applicant shouldn't be given anything extra because of his race. However I hope this isn't what happens. We aren't the adcoms and we don't look at each person individually. I hope they look at the whole picture, including hardships and stumbling blocks that a person overcame, and make a good decision. As it has been said many times, numbers don't mean everything. A person who got a 27 on the MCAT could've also gotten a 32 on a different day. If the individual who got a 27 was able to shell out $2000 to take the Kaplan, they maybe could've gotten a 35.

 

[lilnoelle]

Yes, I believe the problem is upstream of AA.

 

[lilnoelle]

I agree with you TOTALLY! I am also a mom (2yr old and 5 yr old). I have been told numerous times that I will not be able to handle med school. I've had people flat out tell me to "go ahead and be a nurse". I am from a disadvantaged background, however I feel my stats outweigh my disadvantaged status. I had my kids very young, but never used them as a crutch or an excuse for poor performance. There are still a lot of stereotypes out there regarding young women of color who have kids early (I had my first my freshman year in college). I've had numerous people who have told me it was impossible......I am now juggling 3 acceptances and on hold at 2 other schools

Thats fantastic. I sincerely wish I had family nearby so I could get help with my kids. Now I deal with people who think that I am someowhat neglecting my children because I'm about to undertake something as time consuming as medical school. (My parents included) Its easy to believe it at times... but then again, I hear a lot of students that tell me I'll be just fine, and I have a supportive husband.

 

[docturk]

Thats fantastic. I sincerely wish I had family nearby so I could get help with my kids. Now I deal with people who think that I am someowhat neglecting my children because I'm about to undertake something as time consuming as medical school. (My parents included) Its easy to believe it at times... but then again, I hear a lot of students that tell me I'll be just fine, and I have a supportive husband.

My husband is my biggest support system also! I KNOW with him behind me I WILL do fine! Just believe in yourself and keep on truckin'. We are not going to have it as "easy" as many of the other med students, but what else is new? I've been swimming upstream my entire life and I'm not afraid of a struggle. IMO we will make better doctors because of the obstacles that we've had to face while becoming doctors.

 

[foo]

There are other types of afirmative action (besides towards URM).

Yes, if one of your parents is an alumni, of gave a sizeable donation, you will get "afirmative action" (e.g. two equally qualified individuals, the one with connections will get in). Lots of schools specifically ask "what connection do you have with the school".

Please look at the history of standardized testing and you'll notice a history of biasis (and discrimination).

Schools want to admit those students that will be most likely to be successful (because they want highly successful alumni that are financially well off and will donate to the school). Such applicants will receive afirmative attention. Yes, son of an alumnus or wealthy parent makes a difference.

 

[bluehighlighter]

TOUCHDOWN...I am so glad you washed your hand of the thread ...b/c truly you are an idiot...In one of your earlier posts you said:

Slavery=horrible but siliver lining is that a lot of African Americans whouldnt be in the US right now if their ancestors whouldnt have been forceable abducted and forced into slaved labor here

There is no silver lining in the situation. The fact that you would even put this up for an option is ridiculous. There are millions of Americans who made it here by leaving their natal lands by their own accord...(i.e. your parents). I am the ancestors of the Blacks in this country would have much rather stayed in Africa their entire lives than to make it over here and be brutally raped, forced into oppressive labor, and manipulated mentally...If you can't underdstand that ...then you are the type that will have a hard time working with minority patients....

 

[Touchdown]

Sadly its not just white supremacists unfortunatly and yes it isnt PC (which by the way I dispise because there is no way you can have a decent debate while trying to adhere.)

Heres a way I can sort of buy this arguement, again Ive heard it a lot of times and I still dont really buy it but I see the logic in there because of my belief that everything happens for a reason aka silver lining to a cloud, anyways here we go:

First the textbook trajedy with a silver lining:

Holocaust=horrible but the silver lining Isreal is created in direct response to the horror the western world had over the Holocaust.

And now the slavery one:

Slavery=horrible but siliver lining is that a lot of African Americans whouldnt be in the US right now if their ancestors whouldnt have been forceable abducted and forced into slaved labor here

Notice that neither of these things actually excuse the action, but in the long run the agrument states they did produce a tangible good (the reason I cannot fully believe this is because if slave traders hadnt decimated most west african socities who knows how different Africa could have been, it may have even been a better place to live then the US, unfortunatly we will never know.)

Why dont you read the whole post before you call me out on being a racist, I was stating an arguement that I dont agree with but have heard tons of time and can see why some people believe in it. Also thank you for proving my other point about how no one really wants to debate this, only get into a pissing contest. And screw you for trying to attack me on a personal level how the hell do you know what I am going to be like with minority patients, you dont know me at all this is a message board for pete sakes, your trying to be a doctor now its time to abandon the whole high schoolish idea of calling someone out just to make yourself feel like an adult. Peace out.

 

[EndSong]

It's more than just blacks who were forced. Also, I think its a nice point to interject that blacks were sold by other blacks, at the time, into slavery. In other news, I doubt refugees like people of Vietnamese descent can be said to really have left the country of their own accord insomuch as it was stay, starve and possibly die or get on a very tiny little "boat", float across various islands, risk dying, illness and piracy to get to the states.

Lots of bad things happen. Lots and lots of bad things. You can continue to blame the oppressors for historical unfairness, evil and injustice but eventually it probably won't affect you because it happened long before you were ever born.

Blacks weren't the only race to be put to slavery. Jews weren't the only race to be systematically executed. All we can try and do is move on, learn from the mistakes and work on building a future. And it doesn't do anyone any good to re-hash and beat the dead horse. Slavery is often brought up as an example and it sucked but reminding anyone that it happened isn't constructive. It's like being in a relationship with someone, if the other person keeps bringing up horrible mistakes you one party did, you'll never get any where. Like children and their parents. You can periodically blame your parents because x, y and z happened; but its not going to change the fact that it happened. Its easy to say that things happened to you, and yes a great many things do happen to you. What's more difficult is picking yourself up by the bootstraps and saying yeah, can't control outside myself but can control the inside. To paraphrase Elenor Roosevelt, no one can bother you without your permission.

 

[4paw]

So you're in agreement that the problem is upstream of AA? .......... 😕

AA is considered a strategy to solve downstream problems. i.e. more role models, more 'old boys' networks' to help people along, even if that is an exclusive babysitting network. never know what will happen when the old boys' networks are young moms' networks, backed up by some who were, who then became professionals and now have money to invest in the community... AA was created as a way to shift the dynamic of the downstream problems as well as the 'glass ceiling'.

 

[4paw]

There are other types of afirmative action (besides towards URM).

Yes, if one of your parents is an alumni, of gave a sizeable donation, you will get "afirmative action" (e.g. two equally qualified individuals, the one with connections will get in). Lots of schools specifically ask "what connection do you have with the school".

Please look at the history of standardized testing and you'll notice a history of biasis (and discrimination).

Schools want to admit those students that will be most likely to be successful (because they want highly successful alumni that are financially well off and will donate to the school). Such applicants will receive afirmative attention. Yes, son of an alumnus or wealthy parent makes a difference.

i like what you're saying, that the process does privilege some groups over others. the way you're using the term 'affirmative action' does not retain the political context/theoretical context in which it developed. the terms reflected strategies to correct equity imbalance due to systems of oppression such as sexism, racism and classism, which (at the time this term was developed the schools were heavily into socialist thought) were created at different times, i.e. the concept of race the way it is often used developed within colonial models/biological models, and these days the oppression is perpetuated because it is in the interests of the economically privileged class to maintain the status quo. i.e. if everyone truly were equal to get ahead, how many would want to work the mechanized, rote labour of a factory line? not many. so, aa also includes that analysis of oppression, and how to eradicate systems of oppression. it's not just a correction, it was developed to be an agent of change.

 

[Sanctuary]

Sheesh.. this thread is still going?! BTW -- My question was answered within the first 3-4 posts. 🙂

 

[bluehighlighter]

It's more than just blacks who were forced. Also, I think its a nice point to interject that blacks were sold by other blacks, at the time, into slavery. In other news, I doubt refugees like people of Vietnamese descent can be said to really have left the country of their own accord insomuch as it was stay, starve and possibly die or get on a very tiny little "boat", float across various islands, risk dying, illness and piracy to get to the states.

Lots of bad things happen. Lots and lots of bad things. You can continue to blame the oppressors for historical unfairness, evil and injustice but eventually it probably won't affect you because it happened long before you were ever born.

Blacks weren't the only race to be put to slavery. Jews weren't the only race to be systematically executed. All we can try and do is move on, learn from the mistakes and work on building a future. And it doesn't do anyone any good to re-hash and beat the dead horse. Slavery is often brought up as an example and it sucked but reminding anyone that it happened isn't constructive. It's like being in a relationship with someone, if the other person keeps bringing up horrible mistakes you one party did, you'll never get any where. Like children and their parents. You can periodically blame your parents because x, y and z happened; but its not going to change the fact that it happened. Its easy to say that things happened to you, and yes a great many things do happen to you. What's more difficult is picking yourself up by the bootstraps and saying yeah, can't control outside myself but can control the inside. To paraphrase Elenor Roosevelt, no one can bother you without your permission.

I do agree with what you're saying but in the case of all these groups of people, the injustices that occurred long ago have ramifications that manifest themselves in present day life. The current structure of society reflects the infrastructure of events long ago (i.e. % of representation of URM's in every aspect of life: politics, law, MEDICINE...etc.)...It is overly idealistic to think that when one has been taught from generation to generation that they are inferior that they can easily throw of the chains of this ideaology. All I'm saying is that my ancestors pulled themselves up by their bootstraps while using the labor of slaves...

 

[bluehighlighter]

Why dont you read the whole post before you call me out on being a racist, I was stating an arguement that I dont agree with but have heard tons of time and can see why some people believe in it. Also thank you for proving my other point about how no one really wants to debate this, only get into a pissing contest. And screw you for trying to attack me on a personal level how the hell do you know what I am going to be like with minority patients, you dont know me at all this is a message board for pete sakes, your trying to be a doctor now its time to abandon the whole high schoolish idea of calling someone out just to make yourself feel like an adult. Peace out.

All I'm saying is that I see no logic in these arguments...and in my opinion anyone who does would not be on the same wavelength as the vast majority of minority patients. I just doubt that they think that way...and it seems that if you do...you're cultural competency skills might not be as strong as someone elses...

 

[jtboyd]

I almost feel embarrassed posting in this thread, but I believe people are starting to show their true colors. OF COURSE Affirmative Action is needed in the health care system now more than ever!!!! Even with the minorities that happen to get into medical school with Affirmative Action they are barely enough to tip the disparity in the health care system. Minorities especially African Americans are on the low side of the scale for pretty much every disease except skin cancer! WHY IS THAT? I am sure we all know the answer.

Truth is many minorities in the USA are oppressed. NOT BECAUSE OF SLAVERY! But because of the ideologies that were passed down with slavery. You know (stereotypes, looking down on interracial marriages, disrespect of minority culture (esp. rap, hip-hop), not supporting minority businesses.) Those with higher education should understand this. Honestly, I respect all cultures equally weather I agree or disagree, however many people think opposite of me.

It's easy for some to think the playing field is even by now. But the truth is, it is far from even. Why is it when a minority gets a spot over a non-minority all hell breaks loose but when a non-minority gets a spot over a minority (which by the way is American History) he deserves it or somehow that's the way it should be and there is silence? Come on guys statistically if every minority that applied with equal scores as you automatically took your place there would surely be more than ~ 5-10 minorities out of a class of ~170. The fact of the matter is many minority students are very intelligent.

MAIN THOUGHT: Affirmative Action is vital in the health care system.

If you can't take my word take theirs http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2003/030319.htm

 

[jtboyd]

Opps I almost forgot, Medical School is not about numbers and MCAT scores it's about finding people that will make the biggest difference in the health care system! It's more than numbers; I mean medicine is about improving lives! Not every person who keeps his head in a book will make a big difference over someone with average scores who loves to volunteer 85% of his time to help others. I mean medical school is hard don't get me wrong you don't have to be a genius to make it through. In this respect medical school cannot and is not computerized, it is highly subjective. Minorities are needed in the health field to improve the disparity in the health care system. If they don't who will? You?


Take awhile to internalize this!

1.) Why are minorities given preference in medical schools again?

a.
b.
c. all of the above

 

[ndspider]

Afirmative Action. Relative Term

Medical Schools *need* to graduate students to serve minorities. Do you expect a rich kid form the midwest to go into downtown atlanta to set up practice.

Of course not.

So medical school's reserve spots for individuals that will serve certain populations. If they didn't, who would serve them?

To put it simply, they are not taking a spot away from you, cuz the spot wasn't for you unless you planned on working for the underclass. And it is fair to asusme, that since you have never aspired to do so, except for the few hours of community service you did to pad your application in college, you never will. So don't complain.

Duh.

 

[Touchdown]

First of all, why did you reserect your thread ndspider?

Second of all, how do you know that whites arent going serve poor communities, and URMs are? Is there a clause in an URM accpetance (like the NHSC) that makes them serve those communitie? People tend to move to communities like the one they grew up in (if not move back to that community,) irregardless of race. So if you wanted to accomplish that goal you should set an economic AA up.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Right . . . well look, no rational person thinks that URM's should be individually looked down upon in the context of a medical school class. And if I were a URM, I would feel just as defensive and upset about that kind of destructive thinking . . .

That said, the issue is that URM's ARE being accepted at a comparable rate to non URM's with number's that are considerably lower. They are awarded preferential treatment based on their ethnic backgrounds alone. And that is always going to rub people the wrong way. So my question about the point of this posting stands. It does not at all refute the inequalities of a policy based entirely on race.

And if you are confused, (no sarcasm intended) you can fell free to PM me. Thanks.

Just because URMs are admitted at comparable rates (actually at slightly lower rates) doesn't mean that comparable numbers of URMs are accepted. I was actually shocked by this data posted by Gostudy. In 2005, there were 1136 black matriculates of the 17,004 US medschool matriculates. This means that blacks made up 6.6% of all the matriculates. There were 3,249 Asians (19.6%), 10,295 whites (60.5%), and only 824 Hispanics (4.8%). If you look at the actual numbers, it really seems like those who get "rubbed the wrong way" over AA are just crying over spilled milk. I mean honestly, Whites and Asians make up about 80% of all accepted applicants.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

First of all, why did you reserect your thread ndspider?

Second of all, how do you know that whites arent going serve poor communities, and URMs are? Is there a clause in an URM accpetance (like the NHSC) that makes them serve those communitie? People tend to move to communities like the one they grew up in (if not move back to that community,) irregardless of race. So if you wanted to accomplish that goal you should set an economic AA up.

YES, there is evidence that URMS are much more likely to serve poor or disadvantaged communities.

Minority physicians are more likely to serve minority patients even when controlling for premedical school performance and socio-economic backgrounds

Minority patients were over four times more likely to receive care from non-white physicians than were Caucasian patients

African American physicians practiced in areas where the percentage of African Americans was nearly five times as high, on average, as in areas where other physicians practiced

Although black physicians account for less than 5% of the total US physician workforce, they serve as regular health care providers for 23% of black individuals.

The article goes on to quote studies that show minorities are more likely than other ethnic groups to go into primary care, serve uninsured populations, give care to individuals using medicade, and (yes) practice in under served areas.
Besides, we're talking about such a small number of matriculates. What would Whites or Asians really gain if all 1000 spots occupied by blacks could be theirs for the taking? What is 6.6% in the face of 80%? Think about it: The ratio of Black to White or Asian matriculates is 8:100

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

 

[Vizsla]

yeah, can we close this thread already