URM and residency

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One way that could justify racial discrimination is to make admissions unattainable for person X who was born under crappy circumstances, through no fault of his own. Then X, given his crappy birth circumstances is limited to a less-than high school education because highly qualified teachers don’t want to work where he lives. Additionally, X will need to face other challenges such as food insecurity because he lives in a food desert, high crime rate due to the low resource area that he lives in, and many peers with absent parents because of systemic let downs who make the class environment hardly compatible with academic success. Person X needs to work to help support the family and cannot afford to pay for SAT tutor. He gets a lower SAT score than other students across the state with private SAT tutors and a healthy diet of fruits and veggies. Kids with large supportive networks of people who have all managed to attain an education in relatively safe conditions. He does relatively well and maybe scores enough to get into a college with some aid, but not enough for a substantial merit based scholarship.

X maybe makes it out of his residential area to attend a college somewhere. He could very well be the only one that’s made it this far, many having fallen through the cracks for a multitude of reasons including poor social support structures, or even adverse health outcomes in the family. Statistically, person X has a very highly likelihood of being uninsured for some reasons stated above and many more that I won’t list, or just having poor health outcomes because of poor access to health related education, or other difficult circumstances.

In college, while other folks are drinking and partying and doing whatever with some idea of their options, X is in an entirely new domain. He has almost no one with reliable experience about what is and what isn’t available to him in college. He also has to work to support himself and maybe his family. If he decides that he wants to do medicine, well then he has to start checking off boxes. But he still has all the other stuff to deal with. He can not afford to lose his job, he has to find some way to get to and from his work / volunteering/ whatever else he needs for premed. He doesn’t have a reliable mentor or the social capital to just randomly shadow a physician. In fact, he’s likely never met a physician outside of the hospital, especially one that looks like him.

Now comes the MCAT. Given aforementioned social situation, he can not afford the time or money for the $$$ it takes to pay for tutoring services for the MCAT. He gets a 506. Not the best score, but one that technically meets the minimum score as set out by AAMC for success in med school.

He applies to a few schools. He describes his road travelled. An actual adcom reads his story and realizes that someone being able to score a 506, despite everything else he has going on, is probably going to bring a valuable experience to the class.

He is given a chance to go back and end the vicious cycle that he was born into. He now becomes the one doctor that Person Z will see and realize that they too can be something more than society has been led to believe. He goes back and works in that ****-hole neighborhood that other physicians won’t want to practice in. He makes an actual difference for his community.

And in turn, a little dent is made in the health care system for his community. Physician distrust is lessened for his smaller community. With other few success stories in different fields, maybe someone else can be the first grocery store in this food desert. Or a teacher who was given the opportunity comes back and inspires children the way she wasn’t inspired. And in that way, maybe preventative care in it’s messiness becomes more disseminated or at least better accessed. Less ERvisits for chronic preventable disease, etc.
You just described a case for economic hardship considerations, but you tried to use it to justify racial discrimination. Why do you propose we use a racially discriminatory surrogate marker for economics when we can just skip the racism and use economics?
 
You just described a case for economic hardship considerations, but you tried to use it to justify racial discrimination. Why do you propose we use a racially discriminatory surrogate marker for economics when we can just skip the racism and use economics?

Because the two are not separate and have never been separate issues in the history of the United States
 
You just described a case for economic hardship considerations, but you tried to use it to justify racial discrimination. Why do you propose we use a racially discriminatory surrogate marker for economics when we can just skip the racism and use economics?
Economics issues are highly racialized.
 
Because the two are not separate and have never been separate issues in the history of the United States
But they are separate. It’s an example of your adherence to racial discrimination to assume the experiences of people solely based on their race
 
But they are separate. It’s an example of your adherence to racial discrimination to assume the experiences of people solely based on their race
That’s not what they’re trying to get across.
 
That’s not what they’re trying to get across.
But it is. They are wrong but that is exactly what they are trying to say.

They are saying we need URM policies because there is no way the assumedly poor URM population from the hood with absentee parents can compete against the spoiled ORM/white kids with their fancy private schools, wholesome lunches and tutors. It’s an absurd generalization on both sides and they just literally did it
 
Would you agree with me that being a doctor has historically been a profession accessible to the wealthier members of their communities?
 
But it is. They are wrong but that is exactly what they are trying to say.

They are saying we need URM policies because there is no way the assumedly poor URM population from the hood with absentee parents can compete against the spoiled ORM/white kids with their fancy private schools, wholesome lunches and tutors. It’s an absurd generalization on both sides and they just literally did it
Uhh :eyebrow:
 
One way that could justify racial discrimination is to make admissions unattainable for person X who was born under crappy circumstances, through no fault of his own. Then X, given his crappy birth circumstances is limited to a less-than high school education because highly qualified teachers don’t want to work where he lives. Additionally, X will need to face other challenges such as food insecurity because he lives in a food desert, high crime rate due to the low resource area that he lives in, and many peers with absent parents because of systemic let downs who make the class environment hardly compatible with academic success. Person X needs to work to help support the family and cannot afford to pay for SAT tutor. He gets a lower SAT score than other students across the state with private SAT tutors and a healthy diet of fruits and veggies. Kids with large supportive networks of people who have all managed to attain an education in relatively safe conditions. He does relatively well and maybe scores enough to get into a college with some aid, but not enough for a substantial merit based scholarship.

X maybe makes it out of his residential area to attend a college somewhere. He could very well be the only one that’s made it this far, many having fallen through the cracks for a multitude of reasons including poor social support structures, or even adverse health outcomes in the family. Statistically, person X has a very highly likelihood of being uninsured for some reasons stated above and many more that I won’t list, or just having poor health outcomes because of poor access to health related education, or other difficult circumstances.

In college, while other folks are drinking and partying and doing whatever with some idea of their options, X is in an entirely new domain. He has almost no one with reliable experience about what is and what isn’t available to him in college. He also has to work to support himself and maybe his family. If he decides that he wants to do medicine, well then he has to start checking off boxes. But he still has all the other stuff to deal with. He can not afford to lose his job, he has to find some way to get to and from his work / volunteering/ whatever else he needs for premed. He doesn’t have a reliable mentor or the social capital to just randomly shadow a physician. In fact, he’s likely never met a physician outside of the hospital, especially one that looks like him.

Now comes the MCAT. Given aforementioned social situation, he can not afford the time or money for the $$$ it takes to pay for tutoring services for the MCAT. He gets a 506. Not the best score, but one that technically meets the minimum score as set out by AAMC for success in med school.

He applies to a few schools. He describes his road travelled. An actual adcom reads his story and realizes that someone being able to score a 506, despite everything else he has going on, is probably going to bring a valuable experience to the class.

He is given a chance to go back and end the vicious cycle that he was born into. He now becomes the one doctor that Person Z will see and realize that they too can be something more than society has been led to believe. He goes back and works in that ****-hole neighborhood that other physicians won’t want to practice in. He makes an actual difference for his community.

And in turn, a little dent is made in the health care system for his community. Physician distrust is lessened for his smaller community. With other few success stories in different fields, maybe someone else can be the first grocery store in this food desert. Or a teacher who was given the opportunity comes back and inspires children the way she wasn’t inspired. And in that way, maybe preventative care in it’s messiness becomes more disseminated or at least better accessed. Less ERvisits for chronic preventable disease, etc.
The above is them doing what I said.
 
Sorry let’s try this again,

@sb247

Would you agree with me that being a doctor has historically been a profession accessible to the wealthier members of their communities?
 
But it is. They are wrong but that is exactly what they are trying to say.

They are saying we need URM policies because there is no way the assumedly poor URM population from the hood with absentee parents can compete against the spoiled ORM/white kids with their fancy private schools, wholesome lunches and tutors. It’s an absurd generalization on both sides and they just literally did it

Nailed it. The argument should be over with this point but people arguing for URM status will never concede. Anecdotally, I know many URMs who were my buds in college that used their race to their advantage during admissions process despite their parents being wealthy; from a hispanic student sent to prep school/private colleges to a black student whose parents are 1st gen immigrant doctors from Africa. Definitely more privileged than most of the poor white trash that I grew up with.

Personally I dont think economic status or race should be a criterion for admission but if med schools insist on social engineering then at least focus on uplifting the poor rather than arbitrarily assigned privilege status based on the color of your skin
 
Nailed it. The argument should be over with this point but people arguing for URM status will never concede. Anecdotally, I know many URMs who were my buds in college that used their race to their advantage during admissions process despite their parents being wealthy; from a hispanic student sent to prep school/private colleges to a black student whose parents are 1st gen immigrant doctors from Africa. Definitely more privileged than most of the poor white trash that I grew up with.

Personally I dont think economic status or race should be a criterion for admission but if med schools insist on social engineering then at least focus on uplifting the poor rather than arbitrarily assigned privilege status based on the color of your skin

I've seen this so much in medical school and top colleges. The URM spots and advantage goes mostly to rich well off students who just had bad scores, and much less commonly to people who were actually economically disadvantaged. It's like, how are your parents making 200k per year and sending you to the best private schools and buying you 3 MCAT prep courses and you still can't break a 505? How are these the people that medical schools get away with admitting for their "diversity quota"? Not saying that everyone falls into this category, but man it's a lot. I have met very few students of any race or gender in medical school who come from impoverished backgrounds, but most of them that I have met are super hardworking anyways and didn't even get the admissions boost. Overall, the vast majority of people in medical school come from wealthy or well to do families, and I think the people who benefit most from affirmative action are not in actuality the people who were severely handicapped growing up.

Also: I know of at least 2 URM students with wealthy doctor parents that got full rides to med school's where they were just at the median for stats. That's absolutely nuts.
 
Sorry let’s try this again,

@sb247

Would you agree with me that being a doctor has historically been a profession accessible to the wealthier members of their communities?
Sorry, if you don’t tag/reply me I don’t always see it.

Of course people with money have a slightly easier time accessing all sorts of careers. That’s one of the reasons people work hard and try to get ahead, so they can try to get their kids more opportunities in life
 
Sorry, if you don’t tag/reply me I don’t always see it.

Of course people with money have a slightly easier time accessing all sorts of careers. That’s one of the reasons people work hard and try to get ahead, so they can try to get their kids more opportunities in life
WTF kind of question was that in the first place. Like no **** sherlock
 
Anecdotally, I know many URMs who were my buds in college that used their race to their advantage
There’s a lot of compelling arguments in this thread as there always is but what do you mean by “used” their race??? Should they have just lied and said they were white since they grew up wealthy?

Just because some minorities are well off does not mean they magically avoid the social and psychological burdens that can come with being a person of color in this country. Generalizing “a lot” of rich minorities as lazy students who “used” their race to achieve success based on anecdotal evidence is a viewpoint you should reconsider.
 
One way that could justify racial discrimination is to make admissions unattainable for person X who was born under crappy circumstances, through no fault of his own. Then X, given his crappy birth circumstances is limited to a less-than high school education because highly qualified teachers don’t want to work where he lives. Additionally, X will need to face other challenges such as food insecurity because he lives in a food desert, high crime rate due to the low resource area that he lives in, and many peers with absent parents because of systemic let downs who make the class environment hardly compatible with academic success. Person X needs to work to help support the family and cannot afford to pay for SAT tutor. He gets a lower SAT score than other students across the state with private SAT tutors and a healthy diet of fruits and veggies. Kids with large supportive networks of people who have all managed to attain an education in relatively safe conditions. He does relatively well and maybe scores enough to get into a college with some aid, but not enough for a substantial merit based scholarship.

X maybe makes it out of his residential area to attend a college somewhere. He could very well be the only one that’s made it this far, many having fallen through the cracks for a multitude of reasons including poor social support structures, or even adverse health outcomes in the family. Statistically, person X has a very highly likelihood of being uninsured for some reasons stated above and many more that I won’t list, or just having poor health outcomes because of poor access to health related education, or other difficult circumstances.

In college, while other folks are drinking and partying and doing whatever with some idea of their options, X is in an entirely new domain. He has almost no one with reliable experience about what is and what isn’t available to him in college. He also has to work to support himself and maybe his family. If he decides that he wants to do medicine, well then he has to start checking off boxes. But he still has all the other stuff to deal with. He can not afford to lose his job, he has to find some way to get to and from his work / volunteering/ whatever else he needs for premed. He doesn’t have a reliable mentor or the social capital to just randomly shadow a physician. In fact, he’s likely never met a physician outside of the hospital, especially one that looks like him.

Now comes the MCAT. Given aforementioned social situation, he can not afford the time or money for the $$$ it takes to pay for tutoring services for the MCAT. He gets a 506. Not the best score, but one that technically meets the minimum score as set out by AAMC for success in med school.

He applies to a few schools. He describes his road travelled. An actual adcom reads his story and realizes that someone being able to score a 506, despite everything else he has going on, is probably going to bring a valuable experience to the class.

He is given a chance to go back and end the vicious cycle that he was born into. He now becomes the one doctor that Person Z will see and realize that they too can be something more than society has been led to believe. He goes back and works in that ****-hole neighborhood that other physicians won’t want to practice in. He makes an actual difference for his community.

And in turn, a little dent is made in the health care system for his community. Physician distrust is lessened for his smaller community. With other few success stories in different fields, maybe someone else can be the first grocery store in this food desert. Or a teacher who was given the opportunity comes back and inspires children the way she wasn’t inspired. And in that way, maybe preventative care in it’s messiness becomes more disseminated or at least better accessed. Less ERvisits for chronic preventable disease, etc.
I can agree with a lot of this but let’s say we determine med school app status and residency by where one grows up and family income or lack of instead of URM (race)

I had plenty of URM students from rich families in my med school class and poor white folk. The URM from rich families stilll got a lot of the scholarship and had lower entry stats than the non URMs. Make it about where one grows up not race then we can talk
 
One way that could justify racial discrimination is to make admissions unattainable for person X who was born under crappy circumstances, through no fault of his own. Then X, given his crappy birth circumstances is limited to a less-than high school education because highly qualified teachers don’t want to work where he lives. Additionally, X will need to face other challenges such as food insecurity because he lives in a food desert, high crime rate due to the low resource area that he lives in, and many peers with absent parents because of systemic let downs who make the class environment hardly compatible with academic success. Person X needs to work to help support the family and cannot afford to pay for SAT tutor. He gets a lower SAT score than other students across the state with private SAT tutors and a healthy diet of fruits and veggies. Kids with large supportive networks of people who have all managed to attain an education in relatively safe conditions. He does relatively well and maybe scores enough to get into a college with some aid, but not enough for a substantial merit based scholarship.

X maybe makes it out of his residential area to attend a college somewhere. He could very well be the only one that’s made it this far, many having fallen through the cracks for a multitude of reasons including poor social support structures, or even adverse health outcomes in the family. Statistically, person X has a very highly likelihood of being uninsured for some reasons stated above and many more that I won’t list, or just having poor health outcomes because of poor access to health related education, or other difficult circumstances.

In college, while other folks are drinking and partying and doing whatever with some idea of their options, X is in an entirely new domain. He has almost no one with reliable experience about what is and what isn’t available to him in college. He also has to work to support himself and maybe his family. If he decides that he wants to do medicine, well then he has to start checking off boxes. But he still has all the other stuff to deal with. He can not afford to lose his job, he has to find some way to get to and from his work / volunteering/ whatever else he needs for premed. He doesn’t have a reliable mentor or the social capital to just randomly shadow a physician. In fact, he’s likely never met a physician outside of the hospital, especially one that looks like him.

Now comes the MCAT. Given aforementioned social situation, he can not afford the time or money for the $$$ it takes to pay for tutoring services for the MCAT. He gets a 506. Not the best score, but one that technically meets the minimum score as set out by AAMC for success in med school.

He applies to a few schools. He describes his road travelled. An actual adcom reads his story and realizes that someone being able to score a 506, despite everything else he has going on, is probably going to bring a valuable experience to the class.

He is given a chance to go back and end the vicious cycle that he was born into. He now becomes the one doctor that Person Z will see and realize that they too can be something more than society has been led to believe. He goes back and works in that ****-hole neighborhood that other physicians won’t want to practice in. He makes an actual difference for his community.

And in turn, a little dent is made in the health care system for his community. Physician distrust is lessened for his smaller community. With other few success stories in different fields, maybe someone else can be the first grocery store in this food desert. Or a teacher who was given the opportunity comes back and inspires children the way she wasn’t inspired. And in that way, maybe preventative care in it’s messiness becomes more disseminated or at least better accessed. Less ERvisits for chronic preventable disease, etc.
I spent like 300 bucks on mcat prep and got mid nineties and so did a lot of others but the rest of this is good even though I’m against URM benefits at this time
 
There’s a lot of compelling arguments in this thread as there always is but what do you mean by “used” their race??? Should they have just lied and said they were white since they grew up wealthy?

Just because some minorities are well off does not mean they magically avoid the social and psychological burdens that can come with being a person of color in this country. Generalizing “a lot” of rich minorities as lazy students who “used” their race to achieve success based on anecdotal evidence is a viewpoint you should reconsider.
My hispanic buddy straight up said "thank God Im URM because my MCAT is ****"; he now is the type of guy like OP who is always asking people of being URM will help him match neurosurgery. Friend from Africa talked about how difficult his life experience was in his PS (that I proof read) and it was admittedly total BS that he embellished so it "sounded good". I know it sounds like Im being a dick but I literally witnessed this and it is how these specific people "used" their race
 
WTF kind of question was that in the first place. Like no **** sherlock

Lol alright smart guy, well if you grant me that medicine is a field that has historically been available almost exclusively to just the wealthy, then ask your self; why is it that some groups are Underrepresented? Couldn’t it be, at the very least, because they (by and large) are not as wealthy?
And by extension, if you’re paying attention, doesn’t it seem that the underrepresented seem to be a different racial make up than the wealthy who have historically been involved in medicine?
Then, going back to @sb247 ‘s point, doesn’t this ran counter by showing that there is in fact some correlation between economics and race and thus, the ability to play the med school admissions game? These Issues are not mutually exclusive.
 
The problem with the current system is the rich URMs are actually crowding out the poor URMs due to the priority of race over economics. Some of the poor URM premeds I knew didn't end up in medical school because they weren't able to dedicate enough time to school/MCAT/applications etc, while all the rich URMs I knew got full rides to top schools with average scores. Even if you argue they "deserve" a top school based on social/psychological racial hardships, I'm not sure why they need a full ride when they have the means to pay for medical school. Especially considering that there are a lot of actually poor med students who aren't getting any financial support.
 
My school had a much higher URM fail rate vs the average. Which in a way does not do them a good service either. You can’t just let people wade into school that can’t hack it.
 
Lol alright smart guy, well if you grant me that medicine is a field that has historically been available almost exclusively to just the wealthy, then ask your self; why is it that some groups are Underrepresented? Couldn’t it be, at the very least, because they (by and large) are not as wealthy?
And by extension, if you’re paying attention, doesn’t it seem that the underrepresented seem to be a different racial make up than the wealthy who have historically been involved in medicine?
Then, going back to @sb247 ‘s point, doesn’t this illustrate some correlation between economics and race and thus, the ability to play the med school admissions game?
Then lets just use economic status to assess how much of a handout people need. Why would we use race to indirectly look at how disadvantaged someone is?

I don't even believe that socioeconomic status should be used in determining admission. But I'd rather that than race. If you want admission then you should have better grades/scores/interpersonal skills than your competitor.
 
My hispanic buddy straight up said "thank God Im URM because my MCAT is ****"; he now is the type of guy like OP who is always asking people of being URM will help him match neurosurgery. Friend from Africa talked about how difficult his life experience was in his PS (that I proof read) and it was admittedly total BS that he embellished so it "sounded good". I know it sounds like Im being a dick but I literally witnessed this and it is how these specific people "used" their race
Embellishing your life in an application? Well, I never...

Again I am not taking issue with whether or not your two anecdotes are accurate or not, but with your idea that race is something people “use” to give themselves an advantage. It certainly wasn’t an advantage at other times in their life, should they have just not “used” it then? Dismissing the social/economic/educational barriers that URMs may face because you have two friends that are annoying seems a little shortsighted. Unless you don’t think those barriers exist?
 
Embellishing your life in an application? Well, I never...

Again I am not taking issue with whether or not your two anecdotes are accurate or not, but with your idea that race is something people “use” to give themselves an advantage. It certainly wasn’t an advantage at other times in their life, should they have just not “used” it then? Dismissing the social/economic/educational barriers that URMs may face because you have two friends that are annoying seems a little shortsighted. Unless you don’t think those barriers exist?
I believe those social/educational/financial barriers exist for poor people... not wealthy minorities. Why do you insist on race being the issue that we use to determine a person's level of privilege in 2019? I believe that looking at economic status directly we can more accurately categorize who has had their opportunities in life severely limited compared to the average person.
 
Except how exactly is it discrimination if certain minorities are overrepresented severalfold relative to their percentage of the population?



And yet we don't have nearly as many threads discussing the merits of whether children of faculty, alumni or donors should have an admissions advantage.
Trump has demonstrated that it's easier to beat on URM...
 
I believe those social/educational/financial barriers exist for poor people... not wealthy minorities.
If you really think that a black child growing up is immune to any kind of individual or systemic prejudice/discrimination because his/her parents are wealthy, then I’m not even sure we should be having a conversation.
Why do you insist on race being the issue that we use to determine a person's level of privilege in 2019? I believe that looking at economic status directly we can more accurately categorize who has had their opportunities in life severely limited compared to the average person.
Point to where I insisted that race should be the sole reason. I think looking at economic statuses is incredibly valuable. Schools do too! People are able to put down their parental income and categorize themselves as SES disadvantaged, and I am sure that medical schools value those applicants.

Your opinion that race shouldn’t be used in admissions is a valid one, but the idea that being rich alleviates any barriers minorities face and that race is something URMs “use” when it’s convenient to them is not.
 
Lol alright smart guy, well if you grant me that medicine is a field that has historically been available almost exclusively to just the wealthy, then ask your self; why is it that some groups are Underrepresented? Couldn’t it be, at the very least, because they (by and large) are not as wealthy?
And by extension, if you’re paying attention, doesn’t it seem that the underrepresented seem to be a different racial make up than the wealthy who have historically been involved in medicine?
Then, going back to @sb247 ‘s point, doesn’t this ran counter by showing that there is in fact some correlation between economics and race and thus, the ability to play the med school admissions game? These Issues are not mutually exclusive.
Money absolutely can help. Some races are more likely to have money.

If your argument is poor people need some extra consideration then advocate for that specifically and not for a racially discriminatory surrogate characteristic
 
Money absolutely can help. Some races are more likely to have money.

If your argument is poor people need some extra consideration then advocate for that specifically and not for a racially discriminatory surrogate characteristic

Less that poor people need extra consideration and more that doctors are more likely to open up practices in poor communities of their own people, rather than poor communities of other ethnicities.
 
Less that poor people need extra consideration and more that doctors are more likely to open up practices in poor communities of their own people, rather than poor communities of other ethnicities.
straight up nobody wants to practice in poor communities. Minorities, white, asian, malaysian, Martians, extraterrestrials, nobody
 
Less that poor people need extra consideration and more that doctors are more likely to open up practices in poor communities of their own people, rather than poor communities of other ethnicities.
The days of “setting up a practice” are ending anyway. Docs are going employed.....
And again, if you want a doc in a certain place, pay them enough and one will show up
 
My hispanic buddy straight up said "thank God Im URM because my MCAT is ****"; he now is the type of guy like OP who is always asking people of being URM will help him match neurosurgery. Friend from Africa talked about how difficult his life experience was in his PS (that I proof read) and it was admittedly total BS that he embellished so it "sounded good". I know it sounds like Im being a dick but I literally witnessed this and it is how these specific people "used" their race

Good job on assuming what “type of guy” I am. It was a simple question. Not every URM just uses their race btw. I would have been just fine and still gotten accepted to several medical schools had I been ORM.
 
My school had a much higher URM fail rate vs the average. Which in a way does not do them a good service either. You can’t just let people wade into school that can’t hack it.

haha yeah I won't bite. But okay.


Money absolutely can help. Some races are more likely to have money.

If your argument is poor people need some extra consideration then advocate for that specifically and not for a racially discriminatory surrogate characteristic

I think you are making the point that the optics of a racially conscious med school admissions process are not pretty, and in some ways I can understand why you might see it from that point of view. Ideally, we should be able to judge people according to their merit in their respective fields, and solve issues as simply as they might appear at first glance which should be a characteristic of one's abilities and not their skin color. So in this example, if money is the problem then make things like FAP and wave secondary fees for those that cannot afford to pay. Doesn't matter if you are white, or black or anything in between. That should solve the money issue. The problem is that the world doesn't work that way and you should have enough life experience to know that. I mean even in medicine, if you have a patient come in for whatever, say chest pain, It is important to at least ask about the family history, the social history, past medical history because some illness might predispose you to another. By doing this, you are considering all risk factors for this presentation which informs how you move forward in dealing with this particular issue. For the racially conscious Adcom, the lower score in the setting of an otherwise good application might then prompt them to consider the other "risk factors" for such a score. Proverbial distance travelled for example.

So then going back to the admissions thing. In order to understand why it is done that way, you have to conduct some investigation into the question of why exactly health outcomes are the way that they are and why they are different amongst people of different races, even though they might be of similar socioeconomic status. The admissions process is an attempt at solving a very big macro problem !!
Here is one study that talks about the problem of "black women [experiencing] high rates of pregnancy-related mortality and morbidity, along with high rates of cesarean delivery, compared with other racial and ethnic groups". This is a race issue. But it is also a health issue. And it is also an economic issue.

So why should race be considered more in the med school admissions process instead of just the monetary / merit aspects? Because we as a society are not at a place where we can uncouple race from economic issues quite yet. We are also very much still in tune with our tribal, lizard brains and unfortunately today, people of different races are often seen as the other and as such, unconscious bias, which is more often non-premeditated (without malicious intent) comes in to play. And again unfortunately race is one of the quickest ways to identify "people like us" which is a survival instinct, a biological issue. Lastly, America is not a true Meritocracy. I am not sure it ever was but that is an entirely different conversation.

Sorry for the text wall
 
straight up nobody wants to practice in poor communities. Minorities, white, asian, malaysian, Martians, extraterrestrials, nobody

You cannot speak for everybody. That is why the personal statement of someone from those communities who expresses interest in going back to those communities to practice will catch an Adcom's eye, more so than the difference between a 3.4 and a 3.65 GPA for example.
 
You just described a case for economic hardship considerations, but you tried to use it to justify racial discrimination. Why do you propose we use a racially discriminatory surrogate marker for economics when we can just skip the racism and use economics?
Because if we did that schools would still be filled with white students.
 
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Did you all miss the meaning of URM? It doesn’t automatically = poor, nor should it. We need doctors who look like their patients and understand their struggles to go back and serve their own communities. Health outcomes are better that way. If an URM gets into Harvard because of being URM I don’t have a problem with it and you shouldn’t either. How does that affect you? Some of you are always complaining on the DO forum so you probably didn’t even have a shot at Harvard to begin with lol. I can never understand those who go out of their way to complain about the few URM that get into med school thinking they are taking a seat of a more “deserving” white/Asian student. Med school is not a right, it is a privilege.
 
Did you all miss the meaning of URM? It doesn’t automatically = poor, nor should it. We need doctors who look like their patients and understand their struggles to go back and serve their own communities. Health outcomes are better that way. If an URM gets into Harvard because of being URM I don’t have a problem with it and you shouldn’t either. How does that affect you? Some of you are always complaining on the DO forum so you probably didn’t even have a shot at Harvard to begin with lol. I can never understand those who go out of their way to complain about the few URM that get into med school thinking they are taking a seat of a more “deserving” white/Asian student. Med school is not a right, it is a privilege.
Not a DO and just matched my preferred specialty so I guess your ad hominem doesn’t apply to me... Still call BS in that I don’t believe social engineering should play a role in med school admissions. We should admit the most qualified applicants regardless race/socioeconomic status and allow them to practice medicine however/wherever they want so long as they are competent and can find a job.
 
Because if we did that schools would still be filled with white students.
more likely asian students, but that’s fine
Did you all miss the meaning of URM? It doesn’t automatically = poor, nor should it. We need doctors who look like their patients and understand their struggles to go back and serve their own communities. Health outcomes are better that way. If an URM gets into Harvard because of being URM I don’t have a problem with it and you shouldn’t either. How does that affect you? Some of you are always complaining on the DO forum so you probably didn’t even have a shot at Harvard to begin with lol. I can never understand those who go out of their way to complain about the few URM that get into med school thinking they are taking a seat of a more “deserving” white/Asian student. Med school is not a right, it is a privilege.
We don’t need doctors to look like the patients, that’s not true
 
This thread is infuriating. The number of you that are basically saying “life is unfair an URM took a good spot away from a non-URM” is the literal basis of why AA is in place, that same thinking process. When someone on this thread then gives you a thorough explanation of why, you still hold your noses up and it is appalling. Shame on you.

Maybe we should all stick to the original question in this thread and state that being an URM doesn’t really increase your chance of getting into a residency program. Residency program directors get to have certain parameters in place and be picky, that’s how it is. Many more people get into a good residency programs because of who they know, rather than the fact that them being an URM is a part of their application.

If being an URM and affirmative action was as significant as many of you seem to say, than many programs would have a majority of their applicants be URM. Is that the case? No it is not.

Please be the type of non judgmental, accepting future providers/providers you should be. People who get into medical school/residency programs do so because their application proved that they deserved to be there (most of the time, always exceptions). I wonder how many of us would be so opinionated on this thread if we weren’t anonymous?
 
Not a DO and just matched my preferred specialty so I guess your ad hominem doesn’t apply to me... Still call BS in that I don’t believe social engineering should play a role in med school admissions. We should admit the most qualified applicants regardless race/socioeconomic status and allow them to practice medicine however/wherever they want so long as they are competent and can find a job.



Yeah well unfortunately that’s where your definition of most qualified and the admissions definition of most qualified will be at loggerheads...
 
This thread is infuriating. The number of you that are basically saying “life is unfair an URM took a good spot away from a non-URM” is the literal basis of why AA is in place, that same thinking process. When someone on this thread then gives you a thorough explanation of why, you still hold your noses up and it is appalling. Shame on you.

Maybe we should all stick to the original question in this thread and state that being an URM doesn’t really increase your chance of getting into a residency program. Residency program directors get to have certain parameters in place and be picky, that’s how it is. Many more people get into a good residency programs because of who they know, rather than the fact that them being an URM is a part of their application.

If being an URM and affirmative action was as significant as many of you seem to say, than many programs would have a majority of their applicants be URM. Is that the case? No it is not.

Please be the type of non judgmental, accepting future providers/providers you should be. People who get into medical school/residency programs do so because their application proved that they deserved to be there (most of the time, always exceptions). I wonder how many of us would be so opinionated on this thread if we weren’t anonymous?
racial discrimination is either wrong or it isn’t. You shouldn’t be defending racial discrimination while patting yourself on the back
The literature disagrees with you quite substantially.
Except it doesn’t. We’ve been through this topic and the “literature “ before
 
racial discrimination is either wrong or it isn’t. You shouldn’t be defending racial discrimination while patting yourself on the back

Except it doesn’t. We’ve been through this topic and the “literature “ before

No we haven’t! I showed only 2 studies with a very limited scope. You didn’t even provide anything to counter. But this is not going to go anywhere so I’m moving on.
 
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