URM and residency

[Detailfanatic]

Does being a hispanic URM also help to match for competitive specialties? or is the URM advantage mostly for med school admission?

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[deleted480308]

Does being a hispanic URM also help to match for competitive specialties? or is the URM advantage mostly for med school admission?

The urm discrimination still exists for residency. Diversity as a goal remains

 

[Chelsea FC]

Use the search function.

 

[Dr. Doctor MD]

Does being a hispanic URM also help to match for competitive specialties? or is the URM advantage mostly for med school admission?

URM status may provide a slight boost but only in certain situations and it doesn't help students who wouldn't be competitive to begin with. Whatever boost it does give is a small fraction of the massive advantage that it provided for medical school admissions. In residency selection they are looking for a different set of attributes than medical school admissions. I mean even the few specific programs that champion diversity are still overwhelmingly ORM, meaning lots of programs like to talk the talk, but very few actually walk the walk.

URM status will never make up for poor Step 1, research, or an overall weak application. I have seen numerous URM students who were banking on URM status to compensate for a weak step 1 or other red flag in their application and not a single one of them matched. They all went into cycles with a lot of confidence and expected that URM status would add points to their step 1 like it did for the MCAT. Being URM just isn't something that most residency programs are going to use to pick who they are going to work with for 60 hours per week for the next 4-7 years. There are a slew of over qualified applicants and programs aren't going to waste a spot on someone they don't like to begin with just because of ethnicity.

On the other hand, those students who are URM but actually checked all the boxes and are competitive to begin with got far more interviews than their equal ORM counterparts. Everyone wants the 250+ URM students with a good application and these individuals get a whole lot of interviews, and matched at much higher name brand institutions. Some of the best matches I've seen were URM students who had things like 250, AOA, etc. I don't think I have ever heard of an ORM applicant turning down interviews in competitive specialties, but I have known several strong URM applicants who stopped after 15 or so interviews despite getting more offers. When everything in your application is good, having URM status can be the one thing that sets you apart from the other 500 amazing applicants, but don't think for a second it will compensate for a poor application.

TLDR;
Everyone wants qualified URM candidates to attend their program, but few are willing to drop their standards solely for diversity, meaning URM status only benefits those who would have stood a chance to begin with.

 

[radsisrad]

Hospitals have overpaid HR departments and other bean-counters, same as every corporation.

Yes, there is an advantage.

 

[Detailfanatic]

Use the search function.

Did a brief search and couldn’t find anything. But thanks for your super helpful answer. Keep it up!

 

[Chelsea FC]

Did a brief search and couldn’t find anything. But thanks for your super helpful answer. Keep it up!

It literally took me 2 seconds.

How much does race, ethnicity factor into the residency process?

Do PDs care? Or is it mostly based on your Step, clinicals, LORs, research? When applying to medical schools, ORM vs URM matters a lot. Is this the case in residencies selections too?

forums.studentdoctor.net

Affermative action regarding residency

Out of curiosity, is affirmative action taken into account by PD's when they are determining how to rank students? So for example: do Asian students, on average, need higher step scores to match to similar places like with MCAT? Is there a URM bias similar to med school admission?

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[DO2015CA]

It’s only
Going to help you if you are even every other way. They aren’t going to accept an unqualified person just because they are Hispanic. They have tons of applicants, many of whom that are URM and are competitive

 

[Newyawk]

Ive always wondered if the anonymous forum posters who list URM as an attribute, so to speak, are also the students who will argue that they arrived at their positions solely based on merit. Are these the same people, or are there 2 different camps?

 

[Bancrofti]

IMO, as a URM in a competitive specialty, if it does make a difference, it's slight. I think as a Hispanic URM if you are a native Spanish speaker in an area with a high Hispanic population, it could definitely work in your favor. One such place that I rotated at mentioned how they didn't really consider someone being Hispanic or their fluency in their selection process. However, when you look at their resident list, it was definitely much better represented by URM Hispanic residents than a majority of other programs in my field (as it should be). There are efforts to increase diversity in several of the more competitive fields through organizations specific to each field. If you're interested in networking, that would be your best best as "knowing people" can help get you in the door at places who might not otherwise have interviewed you.

 

[Detailfanatic]

Ive always wondered if the anonymous forum posters who list URM as an attribute, so to speak, are also the students who will argue that they arrived at their positions solely based on merit. Are these the same people, or are there 2 different camps?

I think it’s naive to ignore the benefit of being URM. but also I realize that I had a very good application and I would have been fine regardless

 

[dangEras]

URM is very helpful. Among my aquintances, students that were initally recommended to apply to backups in community FM/IM matched to Columbia Anesthesia, NYU EM, and UPenn IM.

 

[Splenda88]

The urm discrimination still exists for residency. Diversity as a goal remains

A lot less so in residency than med school...

 

[getdown]

At some point, your actual talent and skills will need to do more of the talking than what color skin you have.

 

[Dwan]

URM still matters. Among those I knew, for IM, URMs with average applications (220-230s) matched to top tier programs (UCSF, Penn) that top students at our low tier school typically don't get. Not every institution will weight URM heavily though, so your overall list may be more random without an otherwise strong application.

 

[softball2344]

look at the current resident lists for programs you are interested in and you'll probably be able to tell whether it is actually a priority for them (vs what their website says)

 

[mistafab]

Us URMs actually have meetings to talk about how easy we have it. In residency and life in general.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

URM is very helpful. Among my aquintances, students that were initally recommended to apply to backups in community FM/IM matched to Columbia Anesthesia, NYU EM, and UPenn IM.

Were these applicants from this cycle?

 

[Yakuzadoc]

It doesn't matter.
I'm a URM hispanic. URM status didn't help me get into medical school either. Maybe I'm an outlier.

 

[LebronManning]

URM status didn't help me get into medical school either.

Why do you think that?

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Us URMs actually have meetings to talk about how easy we have it. In residency and life in general.

I was not a URM , but there are people who have a tougher road to success, and we have to recognize that. And as above poster said, at some point you have to have skills to be a competent physician.

 

[7331poas]

URM still matters. Among those I knew, for IM, URMs with average applications (220-230s) matched to top tier programs (UCSF, Penn) that top students at our low tier school typically don't get. Not every institution will weight URM heavily though, so your overall list may be more random without an otherwise strong application.

what tier is your school?

 

[Newyawk]

Why do you think that?

Yea id love to hear the response to this. One issue with affirmative action is that nobody knows who benefited and who didnt. Most URMs want a society where URMs are favored to correct for disadvantages, but they also want to be respected as equals. You can desire both, but one is a consequence of the other. It seems like every year theres a URM who manages to get into all the ivy league schools with a sub-1500 SAT score. Do you know how many sub-1500 SAT students dont get into a single ivy? A URM who scores at or above average on the mcat for their school can easily argue that they were a qualified candidate, and theyd be right. The issue is that many students with their same MCAT score got rejected, so who knows what really factored in?

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Yea id love to hear the response to this. One issue with affirmative action is that nobody knows who benefited and who didnt. Most URMs want a society where URMs are favored to correct for disadvantages, but they also want to be respected as equals. You can desire both, but one is a consequence of the other. It seems like every year theres a URM who manages to get into all the ivy league schools with a sub-1500 SAT score. Do you know how many sub-1500 SAT students dont get into a single ivy? A URM who scores at or above average on the mcat for their school can easily argue that they were a qualified candidate, and theyd be right. The issue is that many students with their same MCAT score got rejected, so who knows what really factored in?

So if you don't know then why is the all-too-common default assumption that Black and Hispanic med students didn't deserve their spots?

 

[Newyawk]

So if you don't know then why is the all-too-common default assumption that Black and Hispanic med students didn't deserve their spots?

Did you read the rest of my comment? Or just the sentence you bolded?

 

[deleted480308]

So if you don't know then why is the all-too-common default assumption that Black and Hispanic med students didn't deserve their spots?

Openly defended racial discrimination in admissions is the likely answer

In the same manner that if I meet a guy with a building named after their dad I wonder if it helped them through admissions

 

[Newyawk]

Openly defended racial discrimination in admissions is the likely answer

In the same manner that if I meet a guy with a building named after their dad I wonder if it helped them through admissions

Cant have your cake and eat it too

 

[7331poas]

Yea id love to hear the response to this. One issue with affirmative action is that nobody knows who benefited and who didnt. Most URMs want a society where URMs are favored to correct for disadvantages, but they also want to be respected as equals. You can desire both, but one is a consequence of the other. It seems like every year theres a URM who manages to get into all the ivy league schools with a sub-1500 SAT score. Do you know how many sub-1500 SAT students dont get into a single ivy? A URM who scores at or above average on the mcat for their school can easily argue that they were a qualified candidate, and theyd be right. The issue is that many students with their same MCAT score got rejected, so who knows what really factored in?

meh, i am a little conflicted on this. I do not think you need a 270 to be a dermatologist. So if they admit someone with a 245 who is URM, I do not necessarily think that they "dont deserve it".

Its also a little relative. Residency match has gotten drastically more competitive since the time when the PDs were going through the process. A "undeserving" URM of today was the neurosurgeon of yesterday (slight exaggeration).

 

[deleted480308]

meh, i am a little conflicted on this. I do not think you need a 270 to be a dermatologist. So if they admit someone with a 245 who is URM, I do not necessarily think that they "dont deserve it".

Its also a little relative. Residency match has gotten drastically more competitive since the time when the PDs were going through the process. A "undeserving" URM of today was the neurosurgeon of yesterday (slight exaggeration).

The problem is if the asian kid needs a 270 and someone else is just fine with less because of their race

I think we all agree derm requires a 270 because of supply/demand as opposed to complexity

 

[LebronManning]

So if you don't know then why is the all-too-common default assumption that Black and Hispanic med students didn't deserve their spots?

Because by default black and hispanic students at any institution got in to that institution easier than whites and asians. Thats just how AA works. If black and hispanic students are at any medical school, you can assume their white and asian counterparts of identical caliber are at one tier lower of a school.

URM at Good MD school = ORM at worse MD school
URM at worse MD school = ORM at DO school
URM at DO school = ORM was not accepted into any school.

Sure there are minimal exceptions. Maybe 3-5% of black and hispanic students at top of the top schools would have been there even if they were ORM, but the vast majority not.

 

[Cheeni17]

Why admissions to med school and residency depend on anything other than scores, ability, research and personality beats me

 

[LebronManning]

Why admissions to med school and residency depend on anything other than scores, ability, research and personality beats me

liberals

 

[7331poas]

Why admissions to med school and residency depend on anything other than scores, ability, research and personality beats me

Probably because the culture of medicine has been toxic. The addition of women and minorities to the workforce presumably is going to improve the experience of medical students, residents, and those who have to work around physicians including nurses.

Thats the idea at least. I do think that medical schools need to look out for certain types of people. I know plenty of high scorers within my own class who I would never want to work with or have as my doctor.

 

[Cheeni17]

Probably because the culture of medicine has been toxic. The addition of women and minorities to the workforce presumably is going to improve the experience of medical students, residents, and those who have to work around physicians including nurses.

Thats the idea at least. I do think that medical schools need to look out for certain types of people. I know plenty of high scorers within my own class who I would never want to work with or have as my doctor.

And personality was put in there for a reason



What makes one think adding women and URM to medicine makes it less toxic ? Why can’t we all just be on level playing field? Not rhetorical question seriously wondering this myself

 

[Cheeni17]

liberals

You may be right but the rights rhetoric doesn’t do anyone any good either hence why I’m independent but let’s not make it too political

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Openly defended racial discrimination in admissions is the likely answer

In the same manner that if I meet a guy with a building named after their dad I wonder if it helped them through admissions

Except how exactly is it discrimination if certain minorities are overrepresented severalfold relative to their percentage of the population?

Openly defended racial discrimination in admissions is the likely answer

In the same manner that if I meet a guy with a building named after their dad I wonder if it helped them through admissions

And yet we don't have nearly as many threads discussing the merits of whether children of faculty, alumni or donors should have an admissions advantage.

 

[deleted407021]

And personality was put in there for a reason



What makes one think adding women and URM to medicine makes it less toxic ? Why can’t we all just be on level playing field? Not rhetorical question seriously wondering this myself

There wasn't a level playing field to begin with ever in American history.

 

[deleted480308]

Except how exactly is it discrimination if certain minorities are overrepresented severalfold relative to their percentage of the population?

Because that’s not what the discrimination actually means, and you know that.

You are better than pretending asians aren’t being discriminated against. It really should be a meritocracy, racial percentage goals be damned

And yet we don't have nearly as many threads discussing the merits of whether children of faculty, alumni or donors should have an admissions advantage.

it gets brought up all the time like this as a “whataboutism”. There is almost never anyone to defend it on the boards and certainly no schools openly bragging about selling seats to donors so it’s a one sided and boring discussion

 

[Cheeni17]

Because that’s not what the discrimination actually means, and you know that.

You are better than pretending asians aren’t being discriminated against. It really should be a meritocracy, racial percentage goals be damned

it gets brought up all the time like this as a “whataboutism”. There is almost never anyone to defend it on the boards and certainly no schools openly bragging about selling seats to donors so it’s a one sided and boring discussion

Asians are finally suing some of the bigger schools as they should. They do so well they get punished by those anti meritocracy fanatics. I hope they win

 

[Newyawk]

Except how exactly is it discrimination if certain minorities are overrepresented severalfold relative to their percentage of the population?



And yet we don't have nearly as many threads discussing the merits of whether children of faculty, alumni or donors should have an admissions advantage.

If a minority group is overrepresented in america it’s because they’ve earned it. That much should be obvious to you. In fact, theyre so good that there are unofficial rules that make it even harder for them to gain admission.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Because that’s not what the discrimination actually means, and you know that.

You are better than pretending asians aren’t being discriminated against. It really should be a meritocracy, racial percentage goals be damned

it gets brought up all the time like this as a “whataboutism”. There is almost never anyone to defend it on the boards and certainly no schools openly bragging about selling seats to donors so it’s a one sided and boring discussion

What happens when large swaths of the population end up even more underserved than they already are? Black and Hispanic people be damned too, eh?

Sure, legacy admits are a whataboutism but it remains a point of hypocrisy that we have multiple lawsuits filed annually fighting affirmative action (which has arguable benefits for society as a whole) when we don't have these same public discussions regarding legacy admits. I went to a T-10 that was 7% URM and 12% legacy/faculty admits and nobody batted an eye about the latter.

If a minority group is overrepresented in america it’s because they’ve earned it. That much should be obvious to you. In fact, theyre so good that there are unofficial rules that make it even harder for them to gain admission.

It's way more complicated than that. A large percentage of "model minorities" were effectively cherry picked among the best and brightest of their countrymen, and many of their progeny born here in the states were effectively born on first base. Wealth begets wealth and social capital begets social capital.

 

[deleted407021]

It's way more complicated than that. A large percentage of "model minorities" were effectively cherry picked among the best and brightest of their countrymen, and many of their progeny born here in the states were effectively born on first base. Wealth begets wealth and social capital begets social capital.

Way better analysis.

 

[deleted480308]

What happens when large swaths of the population end up even more underserved than they already are? Black and Hispanic people be damned too, eh?

Sure, legacy admits are a whataboutism but it remains a point of hypocrisy that we have multiple lawsuits filed annually fighting affirmative action (which has arguable benefits for society as a whole) when we don't have these same public discussions regarding legacy admits. I went to a T-10 that was 7% URM and 12% legacy/faculty admits and nobody batted an eye about the latter.



It's way more complicated than that. A large percentage of "model minorities" were effectively cherry picked among the best and brightest of their countrymen, and many of their progeny born here in the states were effectively born on first base. Wealth begets wealth and social capital begets social capital.

Then sue your alma mater, I support your frustration if those legacies got bonus points. It doesn’t justify racial discrimination. And underserved patient demographics aren’t that way because of medical racial discrimination, they just don’t have the same money/insurance. No one is refusing to see black/hispanic patients.

Class mobility stats actually disagree with your last paragraph, the highest quintile of income has kids more likely than not to drop a quintile and the same is true in reverse for people in the lowest quintile

 

[Cheeni17]

If a minority group is overrepresented in america it’s because they’ve earned it. That much should be obvious to you. In fact, theyre so good that there are unofficial rules that make it even harder for them to gain admission.

Yes but this is America so the non hackers scream discrimination when they do not do as well

 

[catnip12]

What happens when large swaths of the population end up even more underserved than they already are? Black and Hispanic people be damned too, eh?

Sure, legacy admits are a whataboutism but it remains a point of hypocrisy that we have multiple lawsuits filed annually fighting affirmative action (which has arguable benefits for society as a whole) when we don't have these same public discussions regarding legacy admits. I went to a T-10 that was 7% URM and 12% legacy/faculty admits and nobody batted an eye about the latter.



It's way more complicated than that. A large percentage of "model minorities" were effectively cherry picked among the best and brightest of their countrymen, and many of their progeny born here in the states were effectively born on first base. Wealth begets wealth and social capital begets social capital.

Lol I always wonder if people who throw around the supposedly unfair advantage that “URM status” confers upon a candidate ever take a moment to even think about why certain groups are underrepresented in medicine.
I mean it doesn’t take a lot of intellectual effort, nor do you have to flip far into the history books before you stumble upon some ugly chapters.

And underserved patient demographics aren’t that way because of medical racial discrimination, they just don’t have the same money/insurance.

^That’s an incomplete answer at best!

 

[deleted480308]

^That’s an incomplete answer at best!

Complete the picture for us in a way that justifies racial discrimination, we have time

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Speaking Spanish >>>>> being hispanic

 

[medicineman1234]

It's way more complicated than that. A large percentage of "model minorities" were effectively cherry picked among the best and brightest of their countrymen, and many of their progeny born here in the states were effectively born on first base. Wealth begets wealth and social capital begets social capital.

Careful. If you're ok with generalizing like this to defend your beliefs, you can't complain when people make sweeping generalizations of others, whether urm or not. Especially when those defending urm in this thread are clearly upset at being generalized.

 

[catnip12]

One way that could justify racial discrimination is to make admissions unattainable for person X who was born under crappy circumstances, through no fault of his own. Then X, given his crappy birth circumstances is limited to a less-than high school education because highly qualified teachers don’t want to work where he lives. Additionally, X will need to face other challenges such as food insecurity because he lives in a food desert, high crime rate due to the low resource area that he lives in, and many peers with absent parents because of systemic let downs who make the class environment hardly compatible with academic success. Person X needs to work to help support the family and cannot afford to pay for SAT tutor. He gets a lower SAT score than other students across the state with private SAT tutors and a healthy diet of fruits and veggies. Kids with large supportive networks of people who have all managed to attain an education in relatively safe conditions. He does relatively well and maybe scores enough to get into a college with some aid, but not enough for a substantial merit based scholarship.

X maybe makes it out of his residential area to attend a college somewhere. He could very well be the only one that’s made it this far, many having fallen through the cracks for a multitude of reasons including poor social support structures, or even adverse health outcomes in the family. Statistically, person X has a very highly likelihood of being uninsured for some reasons stated above and many more that I won’t list, or just having poor health outcomes because of poor access to health related education, or other difficult circumstances.

In college, while other folks are drinking and partying and doing whatever with some idea of their options, X is in an entirely new domain. He has almost no one with reliable experience about what is and what isn’t available to him in college. He also has to work to support himself and maybe his family. If he decides that he wants to do medicine, well then he has to start checking off boxes. But he still has all the other stuff to deal with. He can not afford to lose his job, he has to find some way to get to and from his work / volunteering/ whatever else he needs for premed. He doesn’t have a reliable mentor or the social capital to just randomly shadow a physician. In fact, he’s likely never met a physician outside of the hospital, especially one that looks like him.

Now comes the MCAT. Given aforementioned social situation, he can not afford the time or money for the $$$ it takes to pay for tutoring services for the MCAT. He gets a 506. Not the best score, but one that technically meets the minimum score as set out by AAMC for success in med school.

He applies to a few schools. He describes his road travelled. An actual adcom reads his story and realizes that someone being able to score a 506, despite everything else he has going on, is probably going to bring a valuable experience to the class.

He is given a chance to go back and end the vicious cycle that he was born into. He now becomes the one doctor that Person Z will see and realize that they too can be something more than society has been led to believe. He goes back and works in that ****-hole neighborhood that other physicians won’t want to practice in. He makes an actual difference for his community.

And in turn, a little dent is made in the health care system for his community. Physician distrust is lessened for his smaller community. With other few success stories in different fields, maybe someone else can be the first grocery store in this food desert. Or a teacher who was given the opportunity comes back and inspires children the way she wasn’t inspired. And in that way, maybe preventative care in it’s messiness becomes more disseminated or at least better accessed. Less ERvisits for chronic preventable disease, etc.

 

[catnip12]

@sb247 It’s more than just a numbers game. And again, highest stats = /= most deserving of a med school spot.