URM? Any Insights from adcoms or interviewers?

[MangoPlant]

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Did you ever think this is because at one point it was easier to make money as an athlete or musician than to become a professional as a minority in our country? There hasn't always been opportunities for minorities in education really. Things picked up in the 70's and the number of minorities enrolling in college and grad school has risen more and more each year.

In fact, I did think this - which is why I was suggesting that we initiate programs to remove this "rapper or NBA or bust" mindset from the african american community, and emphasize programs that show the importance of education. I'm not blaming the African American community for the mindset they have now, I am proposing a method to emphasize education for a new era.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

1- I don't care what you expect?
2- Yes life is full of flaws and it is especially amazing when it tilts in your favor. No biggie, you can hide behind the reasoning that giving yourself a boost in admissions is good for society.

That's a bit presumptuous. And for the most part, life does not tilt in my favor.
I guess I'll out myself here, but I can't apply to med school unless immigration reform is passed (yes I am one of those "lawbreakers as @sb247 pointed out earlier). And if it isn't passed this summer, then it's likely another 3 years of living in the shadows (and in poverty) for me. Through insane hardships, I managed to graduate from college with honors and as a post bacc I have a 3.8 gpa and a 3.9 science gpa.
I haven't been a recipient of any "boosts."

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

That's a bit presumptuous. And for the most part, life does not tilt in my favor.
I guess I'll out myself here, but I can't apply to med school unless immigration reform is passed (yes I am one of those "lawbreakers as @sb247 pointed out earlier). And if it isn't passed this summer, then it's likely another 3 years of living in the shadows (and in poverty) for me. Through insane hardships, I managed to graduate from college with honors and as a post bacc I have a 3.8 gpa and a 3.9 science gpa.
I haven't been a recipient of any "boosts."

I think Loyola is accepting illegal immigrants.

 

[deleted480308]

That's a bit presumptuous. And for the most part, life does not tilt in my favor.
I guess I'll out myself here, but I can't apply to med school unless immigration reform is passed (yes I am one of those "lawbreakers as @sb247 pointed out earlier). And if it isn't passed this summer, then it's likely another 3 years of living in the shadows (and in poverty) for me. Through insane hardships, I managed to graduate from college with honors and as a post bacc I have a 3.8 gpa and a 3.9 science gpa.
I haven't been a recipient of any "boosts."

http://www.suntimes.com/20724223-76...welcome-to-apply-to-loyola-us-med-school.html

there is also the carribean, if you are a rock star academically it could be a reasonable flanking maneuver

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I think Loyola is accepting illegal immigrants.

I just PMed you.

 

[EMDO2018]

URM threads are so pointless, the school I'm going to has a class size of 175. Looking at the MSAR from last year, there were 5 black students and 3 hispanic student , 1 native American. The other 166 seats were white and Asian students. The mean MCAT was 30, mean GPA was 3.7, which means there were plenty of white students with scores well below the mean. But I guess URMs are an easy target , its always " why urms are taking seats and getting in with low stats", the proportion of urms in most med schools is so low, it doesn't make a difference.

 

[buttercup12]

Well, instead of simply lowering the standards for a person to get in because they are black or hispanic, we could try to provide more opportunities for them to be able to reach the standards that are expected of non-URMs. For example, we could offer resources that URMs have easy access to (there are already a ton of SURP/summer undergraduate research programs that are specifically for URMs, but I digress), and we could also reform education at the lower levels so that science is much more emphasized. I can tell you from anecdotal evidence that many African American boys are under the impression that its either rapper, NBA/NFL player, or nothing (gangster, drug dealer, etc). We need programs that remove this mindset from the African American community and emphasize the importance of education. Again, I'm simply using African Americans as an example, not trying to single out any race.

TL;DR: Instead of lowering standards for URMs, find out what is stopping them from achieving the standards expected of everyone else and fix that problem.

.

 

[buttercup12]

In fact, I did think this - which is why I was suggesting that we initiate programs to remove this "rapper or NBA or bust" mindset from the african american community, and emphasize programs that show the importance of education. I'm not blaming the African American community for the mindset they have now, I am proposing a method to emphasize education for a new era.

.

 

[Mr Interesting]

In fact, I did think this - which is why I was suggesting that we initiate programs to remove this "rapper or NBA or bust" mindset from the african american community, and emphasize programs that show the importance of education. I'm not blaming the African American community for the mindset they have now, I am proposing a method to emphasize education for a new era.

You are proposing programs that targets minorities to them show the "importance of education" but you essentially have a problem with med school programs that do that for the importance of public health?

 

[MangoPlant]

My God, really?
Nothing better than non-black/AA people asserting their opinion on what they think is setting that community back.

Oh yeah, I forgot that only black/AA people are allowed to talk about and have opinions on potential problems that might be setting back the black community. My bad.

BTW, Where did I say I'm non-black? MDApps isn't always accurate 🙂

 

[MangoPlant]

You are proposing programs that targets minorities to them show the "importance of education" but you essentially have a problem with med school programs that do that for the importance of public health?

The problem is with lowering MCAT/GPA standards for people based on their ethnicity. That doesn't solve the problem. What solves the problem is finding out what is preventing the population of interest, in this case URMs, from achieving the standards expected of Whites and Asians (please don't try to argue that Asians and Whites aren't held to higher standards of MCAT/GPA), and addressing that problem.

 

[EMDO2018]

if there is an underserved area? the same way most problems of distribution are solved, the areas that no one wants to live in pay enough to attract the workers they need

Well, instead of simply lowering the standards for a person to get in because they are black or hispanic, we could try to provide more opportunities for them to be able to reach the standards that are expected of non-URMs. For example, we could offer resources that URMs have easy access to (there are already a ton of SURP/summer undergraduate research programs that are specifically for URMs, but I digress), and we could also reform education at the lower levels so that science is much more emphasized. I can tell you from anecdotal evidence that many African American boys are under the impression that its either rapper, NBA/NFL player, or nothing (gangster, drug dealer, etc). We need programs that remove this mindset from the African American community and emphasize the importance of education. Again, I'm simply using African Americans as an example, not trying to single out any race.

TL;DR: Instead of lowering standards for URMs, find out what is stopping them from achieving the standards expected of everyone else and fix that problem.

So where are all these billions/ trillions of dollars for educational enhancement going to come from? How will you attract high quality teachers to move into underserved areas, which tend to be dangerous and lacking resources? You are basically suggesting instead of adcoms letting in urms with slightly lower stats, we completely remove all educational disadvantages in the entire country and make sure that everybody gets an equal quality education. That would be a wonderful thing, but currently its impractical. Not enough good teachers, not enough resources.

 

[deleted480308]

So where are all these billions/ trillions of dollars for educational enhancement going to come from? How will you attract high quality teachers to move into underserved areas, which tend to be dangerous and lacking resources? You are basically suggesting instead of adcoms letting in urms with slightly lower stats, we completely remove all educational disadvantages in the entire country and make sure that everybody gets an equal quality education. That would be a wonderful thing, but currently its impractical.

I might have been quoted by mistake...but I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that in order to attract medical professionals to areas they don't want to go, some areas will have to pay more. That solves the distribution issue. The racial percentages of the medical profession is not an issue to be solved any more than the racial percentages of any other profession

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Then how should it be accomplished?

That's what I asked. No response.

How do you increase the number of physicians that identify with certain groups of the populations without increasing the training of such physicians? Seriously how do you accomplish this without increasing the numbers of qualified candidates into medical schools?

The threshold of success is something like a MCAT of 25. So there is no argument about their capabilities to provide excellent healthcare. So what really is the issue? If the goal is geared towards proportions then this is strictly a statistical method.


Also, people tend to be oblivious to the lasting effects brought by increasing the number of URM groups. Short term, increased availability to patients, better healthcare to specific groups, etc. In the long term these URM groups escape the low class and limited resources they have been in. Their success and wealth allows better education and resources for their children. Their children are more likely to go into medicine, they have better stats due to the wealth-opportunity relationship. The overall stats of applicants increase, the overall number of applicants increase, the need for specific groups lessens as the increased training begins to close the gap. The "boost" decreases due to simple supply and demand. Which hopefully leads to no more under representation.
The effects of this policy go far beyond the application process. It could actually change the lives of many historically oppressed groups of people. Just food for thought.

 

[EMDO2018]

I might have been quoted by mistake...but I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that in order to attract medical professionals to areas they don't want to go, some areas will have to pay more. That solves the distribution issue. The racial percentages of the medical profession is not an issue to be solved any more than the racial percentages of any other profession

Rural and underserved areas already pay more than most jobs in metropolitan areas, but still most physicians choose to practice near or around big cities.

 

[EMDO2018]

.

 

[el_duderino]

I might have been quoted by mistake...but I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that in order to attract medical professionals to areas they don't want to go, some areas will have to pay more. That solves the distribution issue. The racial percentages of the medical profession is not an issue to be solved any more than the racial percentages of any other profession

It also leads to situations where access to and cost of medical care is wildly disparate from place to place. Yes yes the "market" will make it even out as people move away from expensive areas or whatever, but that doesn't seem to work that well in practice. The situation we have now is one where access to quality medical care is highly correlated with income and SES and many minorities are severely underrepresented from the highest levels of education largely because they lack so many advantages early in life. It sucks, and throwing your hands in the air and letting people do pretty much whatever they want, trusting that the market will sort it all out, is painfully naive and ignores pretty much the entirety of the history of minority and disadvantaged populations.

 

[altitudinarian]

The thing is, the med school applicant has already gone through 16+ years of education to get to that point to apply. And in those 16+ years of education is what separates those from making it and not making it. To get to the point of applying to med school, you must've gone through elementary school, middle school, high school, college education, and maybe some other additional training; yet, in one way or form, everyone goes through that path.

Our educational system from the get-go is set up in a way that if you don't push your child to succeed, if you don't live in a certain area, if you're not picked in those lotteries that certain schools have, allowed admission at those top schools, or some other way to get the better package of education, you're screwed. Yes, there are stories of those who've made it pass the discrimination, the social inequality, and all the other factors that will prevent someone from getting into college, making it to the top. However, the majority of students are screwed over if they aren't in the right spot at the right time. From blacks to Asians, from whites to especially Native Americans, you'll see that in each group there are factors that prevent them making the grade. From those living in the Appalachia area to those living in New Mexico's Española Valley to the streets in Chicago, there are kids who are screwed over by our educational system. Sure, there are those who can simply get by, excel no matter what; who don't have to worry about cultural, social, economic and racial factors. So it's up to them to figure out if they truly want to be on top or just want to get by in life.

Yet, for those who don't have that luxury, unless they have parents/people who are willing to inspire them, they themselves find ways to make it through, and/or have a school system that is there to support them, it's difficult as hell as a student to make it if they have the odds stacked up against them. And even still, if your child is at the top school, if you're not of the majority ethnicity, culture, and/or the majority social class, it's still hard. Look up a couple of documentaries PBS and other companies made on this subject, where kids were accepted at great schools, yet still struggled because they weren't the majority, they weren't the "same." It's tough, and you need support networks to help those kids out. But our nation has sparse support networks that ensures that all kids don't slip through the cracks.

So what is in place is to help out those who are historically underrepresented and have been discriminated against continuously due to the social, racial, economic and cultural factors that have made them become underrepresented. Affirmative action, boosts, bigger financial aid packages, whatever you want to call it; it's there because our system is still fractured, it isn't helping every student have the same opportunity. Yet this harbors further contempt among ORMs because they feel cheated out, that one should be entered based on qualifications, not on race. I get that. Heck, I know of some URMs who don't like affirmative action because they don't want to be seen as getting into school based on race, and want to be recognized by their merits. It sucks on both sides.

BUT WHAT CAN WE DO?? I ask that every single time I have this conversation with people. Because it's a real issue, and it won't stop until there is some definitive action to be made. For the sad truth is, our educational system isn't uniform. What one kid learns in Massachusetts is not the same of another kid in Florida (through the public system). There is no guarantee that your child is getting the best education at a public school, to help them make the pass. And our nation isn't helping out the teachers, principals, and those who are needed to uplift the system either. It's a complex, but important problem that needs to be tackled.

And attracting more medical professionals to under-served areas? Well, these are the same under-served areas that have sucky public school systems, and possibly few opportunities to better education. If more money, resources, jobs, whatever can help the area become less "under-served" than yeah, maybe it'll attract more medical professionals (depends on the specialty and the circumstances of the professional at hand), but you'll be producing a generation of students that might have the chance to pursue those said professions and, realizing their area is becoming better, might come and serve there. Or at the very least, help themselves move up.

All in all, it's a sucky situation. It's a very complex, multi-layered set of problems that are all interconnected. So we can have this conversation again and again, but until you can get the rest of the country to figure out how to reach out to these under-served areas, to make public education the best it can be for every student no matter who they are and where they live, that students don't need to be worried about being discriminated against in the classroom and other activities that'll help them achieve in their academic life, then it'll still be like this.

 

[deleted480308]

It also leads to situations where access to and cost of medical care is wildly disparate from place to place. Yes yes the "market" will make it even out as people move away from expensive areas or whatever, but that doesn't seem to work that well in practice. The situation we have now is one where access to quality medical care is highly correlated with income and SES and many minorities are severely underrepresented from the highest levels of education largely because they lack so many advantages early in life. It sucks, and throwing your hands in the air and letting people do pretty much whatever they want, trusting that the market will sort it all out, is painfully naive and ignores pretty much the entirety of the history of minority and disadvantaged populations.

yes, people with more money can afford better everything...that will never change. Goods and services cost money and some people are willing to pay more. If your point is that some town doesn't have a doctor, there is a dollar amount that will get them a doctor...a dollar amount that doesn't require racial discrimination to solve the problem of distribution. Whether you want the county health clinics to pay that dollar amount or make the people pay out of pocket, the principal is the same.

 

[heartsink]

Your logic seems to imply that this fact is only known to certain individuals with some threshold of education. That is simply not true. It's a historical fact, there are many ways to propagate this information outside of formal education.

You're correct, in theory. We could put it on billboards and buses and hand out pamphlets on the corner. If someone were so inclined to look into the history of American research at a local library they could read it there. In my travels, however, I've never seen anything mention Tuskeege or discuss how research was once conducted. If you aren't taught it, it would take considerable volition and initiative to find out.

I could ask my parents, both with bachelors degrees, and I'm sure they wouldn't know either.

There is absolutely no way for me to know which of my URM classmates were given a boost in admissions because of their race/background. Even if I did know it, it does not logically follow that I will develop contempt for them. I'm, after all, in medical school too.

Not knowing is part of the problem. In the absence of knowledge, doubt grows. For you that doubt is not influential but it still exists as a thought, as an idea. Ideas are resilient.

You don't have to read preallo long before you sense that sentiment already in the minds of some ORM premeds.

 

[el_duderino]

yes, people with more money can afford better everything...that will never change. Goods and services cost money and some people are willing to pay more. If your point is that some town doesn't have a doctor, there is a dollar amount that will get them a doctor...a dollar amount that doesn't require racial discrimination to solve the problem of distribution. Whether you want the county health clinics to pay that dollar amount or make the people pay out of pocket, the principal is the same.

No. My point is that underrepresented minorities are in fact underrepresented because the system inherently disadvantages them quite severely.

There's nothing wrong with an intentional, concerted effort to bring minority representation in medicine closer to their actual prevalence in the population if it's done in a good way and the URMs being admitted are qualified and likely to succeed.

 

[deleted480308]

You're correct, in theory. We could put it on billboards and buses and hand out pamphlets on the corner. If someone were so inclined to look into the history of American research at a local library they could read it there. In my travels, however, I've never seen anything mention Tuskeege or discuss how research was once conducted. If you aren't taught it, it would take considerable volition and initiative to find out.

I could ask my parents, both with bachelors degrees, and I'm sure they wouldn't know either.

I'm not even sure billboards would convey it to the majority of the population...anecdotal evidence exhibit A

 

[deleted480308]

No. My point is that underrepresented minorities are in fact underrepresented because the system inherently disadvantages them quite severely.

There's nothing wrong with an intentional, concerted effort to bring minority representation in medicine closer to their actual prevalence in the population if it's done in a good way and the URMs being admitted are qualified and likely to succeed.

even the aamc says "racial balancing" is unconstitutional...there are certainly methods of providing good care to people that don't require racial discrimination https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

and when donald sterling "took who he wanted" to rent his apartments he was discriminating racially...I happen to find racial discrimination to be immoral

I think the analogy is faulty. If medical schools were deciding on matriculants solely based on race, as in "Mr and Mrs adcom are black and really like black people, and distrust white people" then I think you'd have a case. But you and I know, admissions is much more multi factorial and complicated than that. As I've tried to point out, my school gives what some might call preferential treatment to non-trads, they also heavily favor those willing to commit to rural areas for practice in the form of free tuition, and they make it clear they desire those interested in primary care above others. If you're black, that's great too. So the analogy is faulty, race is not the singular deciding factor as in your example.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'm sure there were many white supremacists that said the same thing - "schools take who they want, not who has the best scores" - when civil rights activists argued for qualified non-whites to be allowed into top schools. Change does not happen without debate.

See above, these analogies are overly simplistic and faulty. Following yours to it's logical conclusion (changing the current URM admissions situation) would lead to even less minority representation in medicine. I'm pretty sure what's being said without being said is this: "If they can't make the grades/scores, they don't deserve to get in". Which is ignoring all of the complicated factors which were in place those 22 years before those scores were submitted.

 

[el_duderino]

and when donald sterling "took who he wanted" to rent his apartments he was discriminating racially...I happen to find racial discrimination to be immoral

The degree to which people equate discriminating specifically against minorities because you don't like them with giving underrepresented minorities extra chances is mind boggling. It's like they think anything that has anything to do with race is equivalent.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

We could put it on billboards and buses and hand out pamphlets on the corner. If someone were so inclined to look into the history of American research at a local library they could read it there. In my travels, however, I've never seen anything mention Tuskeege or discuss how research was once conducted. If you aren't taught it, it would take considerable volition and initiative to find out.

I could ask my parents, both with bachelors degrees, and I'm sure they wouldn't know either.

But they are taught it. It sounds like some of you have been in academia too long. I knew the entire history of my people before I was 10 years old, it would be another decade before I took a course in it in college. It's called oral communication or tradition. And it can happen outside of classrooms. You think the people affected in Alabama didn't tell their family members in Mississippi, Louisiana, or Tennessee? And those people don't tell their children and grand children?

Some poor black people in the south:
"Using a convenience sample of 301 African Americans in Durham, North Carolina, Sengupta et al.37utilized structural equation modeling to explore distrust and other factors that might influence willingness to participate in AIDS research by means of a cross-sectional survey. Respondents were classified by income level (below poverty vs. lower- to upper-middle class). The investigators hypothesized that impoverished participants would not be able to answer questions about the USPHS Syphilis Study at Tuskegee due to their lack of knowledge. As a result, Sengupta et al.37 over sampled from the lower- to upper-middle class subgroup to attain statistical power on questions pertaining to the study. Approximately two-thirds of the sample indicated they had heard of the USPHS Syphilis Study at Tuskegee."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1828138/

Mail and telephone survey outside of the south:
The under-representation of racial/ethnic minorities among medical research participants has recently resulted in mandates for their inclusion by the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Therefore, there is a need to determine how history, attitudes, cultural beliefs, social issues, and investigator behavior affect minority enrollment in medical research studies. From January 1998 to March 1999, 179 African-American and white residents of the Detroit Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area (PMSA) participated in a mail and telephone survey designed to examine impediments to African-American participation in medical research studies. Chi-square tests were performed to assess differences between the study groups using the Survey Data Analysis Program (SUDAAN). Eighty-one percent of African Americans and 28% of whites had knowledge of the Tuskegee Study (p = <0.001). Knowledge of the Tuskegee Study resulted in less trust of researchers for 51% of African-Americans and 17% of whites (p = 0.02). Forty-six percent of African-Americans and 34% of whites indicated that their knowledge of the study would affect future research participation decisions (p = 0.25).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2568333/

I disagree that it takes "considerable volition" to have knowledge of this event, all it takes is for someone to repeat what they've been told. Rumors are not hard to propagate, especially particularly scandalous ones. And your "travels" are irrelevant as that would not be the primary mode of communicating this event to the population in question, unless you were polling poverty level blacks in America.

Not knowing is part of the problem. In the absence of knowledge, doubt grows.

I do not subscribe to this dogma, I'm not sure the scientific community at large does either. You might be lonely on this hill.

For you that doubt is not influential but it still exists as a thought, as an idea. Ideas are resilient.
You don't have to read preallo long before you sense that sentiment already in the minds of some ORM premeds.

If those same people get accepted to medical school and harbor contempt toward all of their URM classmates over perceived, not proven, admissions preference then we have huge problems, I'd agree. I don't think this is reality though.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

even the aamc says "racial balancing" is unconstitutional...there are certainly methods of providing good care to people that don't require racial discrimination https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf

"A shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually evolving underlying reality. The new definition accommodates including and removing underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession. "

What will you guys argue when black Doctors are no longer under represented and the new URM are trangender, homosexuals, or "gingers" to take from the last thread on this?

 

[deleted480308]

"A shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually evolving underlying reality. The new definition accommodates including and removing underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession. "

What will you guys argue when black Doctors are no longer under represented and the new URM are transexuals, homosexuals, or "gingers" to take from the last thread on this?

I don't think birth genetics should be considered at all...it's almost like I have a nefarious believe that applicants should "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

 

[deleted480308]

The degree to which people equate discriminating specifically against minorities because you don't like them with giving underrepresented minorities extra chances is mind boggling. It's like they think anything that has anything to do with race is equivalent.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Hahaha that's awesome. Lions are great.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I don't think birth genetics should be considered at all...it's almost like I have a nefarious believe that applicants should "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

I get that your value assumption elevates individual liberty over the collective need, but that shouldn't preclude you from acknowledging the difference. The AAMC is talking about demographics, which include genetics. Medical schools are trying to address the needs of society as defined here by the AAMC as well as the individual applicant. So, medical schools are evaluating content of character and genetics. I think this issue will continue to trouble people who try to fit it into one idealogical camp or the other.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

If those same people get accepted to medical school and harbor contempt toward all of their URM classmates over perceived, not proven, admissions preference then we have huge problems, I'd agree. I don't think this is reality though.

I've seen anti-URM sentiment diminish in a few ppl after they've gotten to know some of us better. I guess it's easier for some to harbor resentment when their views principally stem from admissions data. And that's very apparent in these discussions. Those that comment on "unfair admissions" are focused on admissions. While the others (including myself) have remarked on the need to reach out to medically underserved communities. I'm just hoping that there's a paradigm shift once patients enter the picture.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I've seen anti-URM sentiment diminish in a few ppl after they've gotten to know some of us better. I guess it's easier for some to harbor resentment when their views principally stem from admissions data. And that's very apparent in these discussions. Those that comment on "unfair admissions" are focused on admissions. While the others (including myself) have remarked on the need to reach out to medically underserved communities. I'm just hoping that there's a paradigm shift once patients enter the picture.

Exactly. Their primary concern is their own admission to medical school and their chances. They don't seem to have any concern about what is best for all patient populations.

It's like Goro said. The overachievers that have lived for numbers and stats never thought that merit could be measured by any other categories besides their grades and a standardized test. This is a hard pill to swallow for them. Funny how the people I hear this from are usually the ones that don't see any point in candidates studying the humanities, taking psych and sociology, or even history courses. Their perceptions may vary greatly after seeing how the other half had lived.

The easy target is race. They can throw contempt at the minority that is admitted. But they will never question if their ORM peers were admitted with less than stellar stats. I mean obviously the total of 15 URMs in their class completely brought down that GPA/MCAT average of the class of 200. Seems legit.

 

[heartsink]

I do not subscribe to this dogma, I'm not sure the scientific community at large does either. You might be lonely on this hill.

When you don't know something, you question it. Does the scientific community subscribe to questioning when they don't know something? Do you?

If those same people get accepted to medical school and harbor contempt toward all of their URM classmates over perceived, not proven, admissions preference then we have huge problems, I'd agree. I don't think this is reality though.

Because of the way admission works, this is reality. It doesn't need to be a widespread haterade fest for it to exist as an idea in the back of ones mind. As long as this is the status quo, the idea that the possibility exists that someone barely made it and it was due to their skin color will continue to live like a disease for generations.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

When you don't know something, you question it. Does the scientific community subscribe to questioning when they don't know something? Do you?

You said "doubt grows" in the last post, doubt necessarily implies some former adoption of a fact, idea, or position. What you're describing here sounds more like curiosity or inquisitiveness.

To answer your question, it depends.
Do I not know that I don't know? If so, then no.
Do I know that I don't know? If so, is there value in me searching out the answer? What's the return on investment and what's the opportunity costs for me to find out?

Because of the way admission works, this is reality. It doesn't need to be a widespread haterade fest for it to exist as an idea in the back of ones mind. As long as this is the status quo, the idea that the possibility exists that someone barely made it and it was due to their skin color will continue to live like a disease for generations.

You can't possibly know if there is contempt and to what level the contempt ORMs hold against their URM counter parts. If you have some data to present, I'd reconsider my position. This sounds like pure conjecture though.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Exactly. Their primary concern is their own admission to medical school and their chances. They don't seem to have any concern about what is best for all patient populations.

It's like Goro said. The overachievers that have lived for numbers and stats never thought that merit could be measured by any other categories besides their grades and a standardized test. This is a hard pill to swallow for them. Funny how the people I hear this from are usually the ones that don't see any point in candidates studying the humanities, taking psych and sociology, or even history courses. Their perceptions may vary greatly after seeing how the other half had lived.

The easy target is race. They can throw contempt at the minority that is admitted. But they will never question if their ORM peers were admitted with less than stellar stats. I mean obviously the total of 15 URMs in their class completely brought down that GPA/MCAT average of the class of 200. Seems legit.

Completely agree. And is an ORM with a 3.6 and 30 MCAT at Hopkins less deserving? Of course not. But based on some of the remarks here, they're taking a seat from a candidate with a +7 MCAT score.

Btw, I'm thrilled when I see ORM's at Cornell and Sinai with "below average" stats for those schools. It makes me feel better about the world.

 

[The Buff OP]

Shoulders and tri's, legs tomorrow

Day 2 after legs day and my legs are sore as F.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Day 2 after legs day and my legs are sore as F.

 

[The Buff OP]

View attachment 182048

That's what I'm going to do from now on. I'm going hijack URM threads and go off-topic and get them closed. Looking back at comments from the early 2000's URM threads ALWAYS go into flame wars. The people who hate on URM's can go to la chingada. 👍

 

[mrh125]

URM should also be Underrepresented MCAT because it's important to consider students of all mcat scores from 1-45 regardless of what their score may be. Schools should put that in their diversity statement.

 

[Womb Raider]

It bothers me when people see this as unethical.

I think that many people forget the original intentions of affirmative action programs. I am a black student and I completely support giving URM students a small boost. Not just because I am black, but I think many fail to look at why it is necessary.

Both of my parents grew up facing extreme systematic racism. My dad was legally not allowed to go to school with other races until he was in 8th grade, and for my mom, 6th grade. They were spat on while walking to school and racist extremist groups were a real everyday threat. They feared for their safety going to a non HBCU. My dads family was broken up just so they could legally stay in housing projects (able bodied black men were not permitted to live in a housing project). This did not affect my family, but the war on drugs policies also destroyed many families and their economic potential. Many black families are still affected by this type of systematic racism that went on and it doesn't end in one generation as some people still believe.

So, not only does affirmative action attempt to help these wrongdoings, but it also helps produce doctors that are more likely to return to these communities and help them. Never before has one group been targeted so heavily by systematic racism in the United States, and it's not as if they came here as willing immigrants. (That's not to say other groups have it easy!)

To put it simply, when similar applications are present, no doubt in my mind, the URM should get the spot. I know many will disagree with this, but until you have experienced these disadvantages, I don't think you can even begin to understand this type of necessary reparation. The system is not perfect,I get that. But I also think a lot of people overestimate how many spots black URM Take. Discounting HBCU's, there aren't THAT many spots being filled by black URM.

Ok so you're in favor of hurting people now for something that they had no control over to make up for something that didn't actually hurt you.

Really? You get that the system is not perfect? Why are you so eager to adopt it, then?

You guys supporting this are (for the most part) able to (god forbid!!) accept that this system is not perfect, thank god. Realize though that you are settling for mediocrity rather than striving to produce a better system. When people settle, changes don't occur, and if they do, it happens at a slower pace.

I refuse to call giving a small preference to URMs racial discrimination. Racial discrimination is alive and well in America, but it is not happening to me- a suburban white guy. I do hope that med schools will give me some consideration for my SES-01 status, but even growing up poor is nothing compared to the stuff that happened to my classmates, friends and girlfriend.

That's interesting! Please tell me, where do you draw the line? What's "small" mean?

I don't think this is about being "comfortable." This has everything to do with trust. Minorities have a hard time trusting white doctors because of history. History affects present life and affects how we perceive things. Medically, what we have done to many minority populations is disgusting and it isn't a shock that many of them do not trust white doctors. They know they are competent but some of them are still fearful of being used as guinea pigs for some experimental drug or procedure. It sucks because everyone loses but this is changing with time.

White people have been used as guinea pigs too. In fact, this was the number one reason I had difficulty enrolling white patients in the clinical trials I worked on.

This country has progressed SIGNIFICANTLY since the days of Tuskegee and uninformed medical testing. Have you actually been a part of modern clinical research? Do you understand all of the steps that must be followed before a patient is allowed to be enrolled? Minorities do not have any more reason to doubt research in America TODAY than any other race. The fear is there because of the past. It's there because your grandparents or parents told you stories of how it used to be in the bad ol' days, something that isn't even remotely similar to now. Your kids are undoubtedly going to hear about never trusting white doctors either because someone who lived a hundred years ago was harmed by someone who isn't living anymore.

I'm not discrediting these actions, I'm just trying to illustrate that you're moving in the wrong direction by advocating for a world in which black physicians treat black patients using outdated experiences to justify this lack of trust. It's ironically perpetuating the very mentality you're trying to overcome.

How about we design a system that encourages society to achieve race-blind trust!

It’s not really affirmative action. This isn’t some kind of hand out or reparation. This is for the good for country’s overall health and wellness.

But what's the problem with discrimination that actually leads to improved public health? This isn't about the applicants that "get rejected." It's about improving the health of the population.

So was Tuskegee. You're using utilitarian ethics to justify wronging the individual. Too bad you're a hypocrite.

It's about providing the best care for the patient. It doesn't matter if you think they are racist or not. If a patient is more likely to open up to someone they feel they can relate to and consistently come back for physicals and follow-ups, that is the primary concern, not changing them into a better person in your eyes.

Everything in life can be influenced by "feeling comfortable" by those that look like us. Where do we draw the line? I demand (insert my race here) teachers, barbers, taxi drivers, dentists, pizza delivery boys, NBA players, news broadcasters, friends, busses, communities, etc... Do you see how racist that sounds?

Let's stop looking in the past. We're the first generation that actually has hope for treating all races equally, but when we support ideas like this we're just shooting ourselves in the foot.

It takes time regain trust. It's unreasonable to expect minority populations to forget hundreds of years of abuse (which ended not too long ago) in such a short amount of time.

Tell me how you were abused. Also, tell me how others, who were not involved in your ancestor's abuse, should provide you with reparations. Stop acting like you were the victim in events that happened in the past.

The path to equality is paved with forgiveness and accepting new beginnings. Looking in the past and demanding things only exacerbates the animosity between races.

No one said this system is perfect but it does accomplish the mission it has set out to accomplish whether you like it or not. The constant fussing and crying does nothing to help the issue.

Actually if it weren't for people like us (who disagree with this form of racism) and society were full of people like you (who are happy with this system) nothing would ever change and this kind of favoritism based on skin color would go unchecked indefinitely.

Edit: what would be an acceptable method of addressing the healthcare disparities besides promoting the training of doctors that patients can identify with and will likely give better care to minority and immigrant populations? The problem is that there aren't enough doctors to serve the communities in this way, so increasing the numbers are wrong though they are well qualified to.

So the ends justify the means?

Then how should it be accomplished?

Short answer: better education IMO.

You act as though everyone in this world was created equal. Let's introduce a affirmative action policy for NBA draft so that white guys can make it too. Oh wait, that's not saving lives so that's different!!!!!1

How do you increase the number of physicians that identify with certain groups of the populations without increasing the training of such physicians? Seriously how do you accomplish this without increasing the numbers of qualified candidates into medical schools?

How about putting more effort into teaching physicians to relate to people who don't have the same skin color as they do. How about spending more time and effort bridging the disparity between the races and promoting a sense of race-blind trust to our children, by example, rather than diving into a system where we must go to a doctor that looks like us!!!! Yeah GREAT WAY TO END RACISM.

Approximately two-thirds of the sample indicated they had heard of the USPHS Syphilis Study at Tuskegee."

Amount of knowledge was not assessed

I've "heard of" quantum physics! I wonder how many of that 2/3 actually could describe what it was.

 

[deleted480308]

No one should be having any feelings of animosity toward URM students who got accepted. I've repeatedly told students to go ahead and check that box regardless of their opinion of the URM policy. We all have families/futures to deal with and we all know we'd check whatever box we could to add to our chances. 5% boost for loving Justin Bieber? (*hangs head low, checks the box and goes to itunes) Those students don't have any responsibility, solely due to their skin color, for the racial discrimination in the policy. And, those students aren't going to get the policy changed as premeds.

The other thing I tell people is to think about the racial discrimination in that policy and to work to change it once they are doctors. Get on aamc boards, get on adcoms, advocate with ama, run for office and work to eliminate racial discrimination because it's wrong (as is age/gender/etc). It's the people that choose to actually advocate for racial discrimination that I take philosophical issue with, not those who benefit from their racial discrimination. To do otherwise wouldn't be logical, but even those I disagree with can be treated with civility and given full credit for their accomplishments.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

Ok so you're in favor of hurting people now for something that they had no control over to make up for something that didn't actually hurt you.

Really? You get that the system is not perfect? Why are you so eager to adopt it, then?

You guys supporting this are (for the most part) able to (god forbid!!) accept that this system is not perfect, thank god. Realize though that you are settling for mediocrity rather than striving to produce a better system. When people settle, changes don't occur, and if they do, it happens at a slower pace.



That's interesting! Please tell me, where do you draw the line? What's "small" mean?



White people have been used as guinea pigs too. In fact, this was the number one reason I had difficulty enrolling white patients in the clinical trials I worked on.

This country has progressed SIGNIFICANTLY since the days of Tuskegee and uninformed medical testing. Have you actually been a part of modern clinical research? Do you understand all of the steps that must be followed before a patient is allowed to be enrolled? Minorities do not have any more reason to doubt research in America TODAY than any other race. The fear is there because of the past. It's there because your grandparents or parents told you stories of how it used to be in the bad ol' days, something that isn't even remotely similar to now. Your kids are undoubtedly going to hear about never trusting white doctors either because someone who lived a hundred years ago was harmed by someone who isn't living anymore.

I'm not discrediting these actions, I'm just trying to illustrate that you're moving in the wrong direction by advocating for a world in which black physicians treat black patients using outdated experiences to justify this lack of trust. It's ironically perpetuating the very mentality you're trying to overcome.

How about we design a system that encourages society to achieve race-blind trust!




So was Tuskegee. You're using utilitarian ethics to justify wronging the individual. Too bad you're a hypocrite.



Everything in life can be influenced by "feeling comfortable" by those that look like us. Where do we draw the line? I demand (insert my race here) teachers, barbers, taxi drivers, dentists, pizza delivery boys, NBA players, news broadcasters, friends, busses, communities, etc... Do you see how racist that sounds?

Let's stop looking in the past. We're the first generation that actually has hope for treating all races equally, but when we support ideas like this we're just shooting ourselves in the foot.



Tell me how you were abused. Also, tell me how others, who were not involved in your ancestor's abuse, should provide you with reparations. Stop acting like you were the victim in events that happened in the past.

The path to equality is paved with forgiveness and accepting new beginnings. Looking in the past and demanding things only exacerbates the animosity between races.



Actually if it weren't for people like us (who disagree with this form of racism) and society were full of people like you (who are happy with this system) nothing would ever change and this kind of favoritism based on skin color would go unchecked indefinitely.



So the ends justify the means?



Short answer: better education IMO.

You act as though everyone in this world was created equal. Let's introduce a affirmative action policy for NBA draft so that white guys can make it too. Oh wait, that's not saving lives so that's different!!!!!1



How about putting more effort into teaching physicians to relate to people who don't have the same skin color as they do. How about spending more time and effort bridging the disparity between the races and promoting a sense of race-blind trust to our children, by example, rather than diving into a system where we must go to a doctor that looks like us!!!! Yeah GREAT WAY TO END RACISM.





I've "heard of" quantum physics! I wonder how many of that 2/3 actually could describe what it was.

So you are so closed off to what is going on around you that you didn't know what 'LGBT' meant the other day, but you are positive you are 100% knowledgeable about the racial situation in this country. OK.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Ok so you're in favor of hurting people now for something that they had no control over to make up for something that didn't actually hurt you.

Really? You get that the system is not perfect? Why are you so eager to adopt it, then?

You guys supporting this are (for the most part) able to (god forbid!!) accept that this system is not perfect, thank god. Realize though that you are settling for mediocrity rather than striving to produce a better system. When people settle, changes don't occur, and if they do, it happens at a slower pace.



That's interesting! Please tell me, where do you draw the line? What's "small" mean?



White people have been used as guinea pigs too. In fact, this was the number one reason I had difficulty enrolling white patients in the clinical trials I worked on.

This country has progressed SIGNIFICANTLY since the days of Tuskegee and uninformed medical testing. Have you actually been a part of modern clinical research? Do you understand all of the steps that must be followed before a patient is allowed to be enrolled? Minorities do not have any more reason to doubt research in America TODAY than any other race. The fear is there because of the past. It's there because your grandparents or parents told you stories of how it used to be in the bad ol' days, something that isn't even remotely similar to now. Your kids are undoubtedly going to hear about never trusting white doctors either because someone who lived a hundred years ago was harmed by someone who isn't living anymore.

I'm not discrediting these actions, I'm just trying to illustrate that you're moving in the wrong direction by advocating for a world in which black physicians treat black patients using outdated experiences to justify this lack of trust. It's ironically perpetuating the very mentality you're trying to overcome.

How about we design a system that encourages society to achieve race-blind trust!




So was Tuskegee. You're using utilitarian ethics to justify wronging the individual. Too bad you're a hypocrite.



Everything in life can be influenced by "feeling comfortable" by those that look like us. Where do we draw the line? I demand (insert my race here) teachers, barbers, taxi drivers, dentists, pizza delivery boys, NBA players, news broadcasters, friends, busses, communities, etc... Do you see how racist that sounds?

Let's stop looking in the past. We're the first generation that actually has hope for treating all races equally, but when we support ideas like this we're just shooting ourselves in the foot.



Tell me how you were abused. Also, tell me how others, who were not involved in your ancestor's abuse, should provide you with reparations. Stop acting like you were the victim in events that happened in the past.

The path to equality is paved with forgiveness and accepting new beginnings. Looking in the past and demanding things only exacerbates the animosity between races.



Actually if it weren't for people like us (who disagree with this form of racism) and society were full of people like you (who are happy with this system) nothing would ever change and this kind of favoritism based on skin color would go unchecked indefinitely.



So the ends justify the means?



Short answer: better education IMO.

You act as though everyone in this world was created equal. Let's introduce a affirmative action policy for NBA draft so that white guys can make it too. Oh wait, that's not saving lives so that's different!!!!!1



How about putting more effort into teaching physicians to relate to people who don't have the same skin color as they do. How about spending more time and effort bridging the disparity between the races and promoting a sense of race-blind trust to our children, by example, rather than diving into a system where we must go to a doctor that looks like us!!!! Yeah GREAT WAY TO END RACISM.





I've "heard of" quantum physics! I wonder how many of that 2/3 actually could describe what it was.

You're comparing Tuskegee with ppl that may or may not have lower #'s for med school??

And sure, make a "supplemental NBA draft." If anyone included in that draft performs at the NBA level and helps teams improve within 3-4 years, then of course they're qualified for the NBA. If you can pull this off maybe you should become a basketball coach and/or scout.
Anyone drafted into the NBA has to perform to remain in the league, whether they are the #1 overall pick or a late second rounder. The same goes for med school. Everyone must pass the boards and get through a residency in order to become a doctor. Med school admission is not a golden ticket.
And what about the ORM's that were "drafted" to Penn and Harvard with lower LizzyM scores?! Are they taking a seat from someone with a higher score?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

No one should be having any feelings of animosity toward URM students who got accepted. I've repeatedly told students to go ahead and check that box regardless of their opinion of the URM policy. We all have families/futures to deal with and we all know we'd check whatever box we could to add to our chances. 5% boost for loving Justin Bieber? (*hangs head low, checks the box and goes to itunes) Those students don't have any responsibility, solely due to their skin color, for the racial discrimination in the policy. And, those students aren't going to get the policy changed as premeds.

The other thing I tell people is to think about the racial discrimination in that policy and to work to change it once they are doctors. Get on aamc boards, get on adcoms, advocate with ama, run for office and work to eliminate racial discrimination because it's wrong (as is age/gender/etc). It's the people that choose to actually advocate for racial discrimination that I take philosophical issue with, not those who benefit from their racial discrimination. To do otherwise wouldn't be logical, but even those I disagree with can be treated with civility and given full credit for their accomplishments.

Although we differ on these issues, I appreciate that you're advocating for civility and the recognition of ppl's accomplishments.

 

[el_duderino]

The idea that white kids with good stats are being hurt by this policy is ridiculous.

No one should be having any feelings of animosity toward URM students who got accepted. I've repeatedly told students to go ahead and check that box regardless of their opinion of the URM policy. We all have families/futures to deal with and we all know we'd check whatever box we could to add to our chances. 5% boost for loving Justin Bieber? (*hangs head low, checks the box and goes to itunes) Those students don't have any responsibility, solely due to their skin color, for the racial discrimination in the policy. And, those students aren't going to get the policy changed as premeds.

The other thing I tell people is to think about the racial discrimination in that policy and to work to change it once they are doctors. Get on aamc boards, get on adcoms, advocate with ama, run for office and work to eliminate racial discrimination because it's wrong (as is age/gender/etc). It's the people that choose to actually advocate for racial discrimination that I take philosophical issue with, not those who benefit from their racial discrimination. To do otherwise wouldn't be logical, but even those I disagree with can be treated with civility and given full credit for their accomplishments.

Look at it this way: the very experience of growing up as a URM serves as a powerful EC/experience that medical schools and the health community at large recognize as having real, actual value.

Just as someone with lower GPA/MCAT might get in because they have published research, someone with lower GPA/MCAT might get in because they grew up with the experience of being a URM.

The URMs who are getting in with lower stats are not less deserving than ORMs with higher stats for the very reason that they have a lifelong set of experiences and perspectives that the ORM does not.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I think this statement from the AAMC in the context of how they define URM needs to be read and understand by more people here.

"A shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually evolving underlying reality. The new definition accommodates including and removing underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession. "

To me, this undermines any real argument that this is a "race issue". The primary factor is representation of some group, it happens to be that certain racial groups are underrepresented today, in the future, it very well could be other types of communities or populations that have nothing to do with race are the focus for proper representation and admissions preference.

 

[StBernardsRule]

You don't have to read preallo long before you sense that sentiment already in the minds of some ORM premeds.

When you teach kids from a very young age "racism is always bad and you should not treat someone differently based on their race" then all of the sudden they find out getting into medical school (which has often been their lifelong dream) is an incredibly racist process, then I expect it to leave a bad taste in their mouth.

Also, the URM boost seems to be about 10 MCAT points, so calling it a "small" boost is a bit frustrating to those of us who were basically told they need to get a 3.8+/32+ to have a pretty good shot at just getting in somewhere. I also volunteer in a couple organizations that seek out URM students specifically and have been denied (yup) being part of a volunteer group which tutors kids in a very poor area because they only want URM volunteers. Quite frustrating and leaves a bad taste.

 

[el_duderino]

Also, the URM boost seems to be about 10 MCAT points

(apologies to Randall)