URM? Any Insights from adcoms or interviewers?

[WhittyPsyche]

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I think you are mis-attributing some other people's posts as mine? You did that in another post earlier too lol. Either way. I never disagreed with the things you're saying here.

No. I'm addressing a whole but what I was identifying was the fact that you don't have to scrap one thing while you wait for the implementation of another thing. Just continuing from your comment. And earlier I used your post because you liked the attack comment then referred to the fact that the other poster was URM by public knowledge.

 

[el_duderino]

then please spell it out...

I did spell it out, but you completely ignore the things I'm telling you. Minority underrepresentation in medicine has significant effects in health disparities and health outcomes for minorities. Increasing minority representation in medicine improves health outcomes and decreases health disparities.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

No. I'm addressing a whole but what I was identifying was the fact that you don't have to scrap one thing while you wait for the implementation of another thing. Just continuing from your comment. And earlier I used your post because you liked the attack comment then referred to the fact that the other poster was URM by public knowledge.

I like a lot of comments

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Unless you have evidence that an asian doctor physically can't provide good care to a black person or a white doctor can't provide good care to a hispanic patient...then I'm going to stick to my point. A patient "preferring" a doctor of their race is not a justification for unconstitutional racial balancing in admissions. A patient trusting a doctor of their race more is not a justification either (much like it wouldn't be appropriate for a hospital in a rural country area to prefer white doctors because they found some of their patients were as bigoted as those patients that don't like white doctors.

There have been a number of studies by the NIH and other bodies that have proved that health outcomes are better when minority and foreign groups are treated by physicians that share their cultural background and language. In fact, a few links were posted earlier in the thread about this. Not hard to find, I'm on a phone and page numbers differ so I'll let you peruse at your will.

 

[deleted480308]

I did spell it out, but you completely ignore the things I'm telling you. Minority underrepresentation in medicine has significant effects in health disparities and health outcomes for minorities. Increasing minority representation in medicine improves health outcomes and decreases health disparities.

we've discussed the concepts of geographic distribution of doctors and patient mistrust...both of which I have addressed (even if you didn't like the answers)

what do you think I'm missing?

 

[el_duderino]

we've discussed the concepts of geographic distribution of doctors and patient mistrust...both of which I have addressed (even if you didn't like the answers)

what do you think I'm missing?

You're missing the fact that the program in question actually provides real, tangible public health benefits. Your only suggestion in this entire 9-page thread so far has been school vouchers, which - even if they totally eliminated all disparities in educational opportunity, which they most certainly do not - would create a gap of 20 years in which minorities would continue to be significantly underrepresented.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

You're missing the fact that the program in question actually provides real, tangible public health benefits. Your only suggestion in this entire 9-page thread so far has been school vouchers, which - even if they totally eliminated all disparities in educational opportunity, which they most certainly do not - would create a gap of 20 years in which minorities would continue to be significantly underrepresented.

20 years for the education itself. A number of years before actual implementation. I question some people's knowledge of politics, nothing goes through immediately simply because it's a good idea. It will be a long time before funding like this comes to fruition.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

20 years for the education itself. A number of years before actual implementation. I question some people's knowledge of politics, nothing goes through immediately simply because it's a good idea. It will be a long time before funding like this comes to fruition.

And even after implementation, policy reversal can occur with a new Congress, President, etc

 

[plumazul]

Unless you have evidence that an asian doctor physically can't provide good care to a black person or a white doctor can't provide good care to a hispanic patient...then I'm going to stick to my point. A patient "preferring" a doctor of their race is not a justification for unconstitutional racial balancing in admissions. A patient trusting a doctor of their race more is not a justification either (much like it wouldn't be appropriate for a hospital in a rural country area to prefer white doctors because they found some of their patients were as bigoted as those patients that don't like white doctors.

Who is doing this?

straw man: creating a false or made up scenario and then attacking it. (e.g., Evolutionists think that everything came about by random chance.) Most evolutionists think in terms of natural selection which may involve incidental elements, but does not depend entirely on random chance. Painting your opponent with false colors only deflects the purpose of the argument. (The straw man is the most commonly used fallacy of all.)

 

[plumazul]

For those on this thread who are having problems understanding certain terms, here is a brief tutorial:

Racism: Is the reason we have URM racial and ethnic groups in our health care system.

Public Health Policy: is the decisions, plans, and actions that are undertaken to achieve specific health care goals within a society. An example would be increasing diversity in medical schools throughout the country where it has been historically lacking, in order to better serve the health care needs of our nation.

I hope this has been helpful.

 

[deleted480308]

Who is doing this?

straw man: creating a false or made up scenario and then attacking it. (e.g., Evolutionists think that everything came about by random chance.) Most evolutionists think in terms of natural selection which may involve incidental elements, but does not depend entirely on random chance. Painting your opponent with false colors only deflects the purpose of the argument. (The straw man is the most commonly used fallacy of all.)

It has been stated in this thread that one of the reasons for needing to racially discriminate in med school admissions is because URM patients don't trust white doctors...it's not a straw man if I'm actually responding to a point made by someone

 

[el_duderino]

It has been stated in this thread that one of the reasons for needing to racially discriminate in med school admissions is because URM patients don't trust white doctors...it's not a straw man if I'm actually responding to a point made by someone

Not exactly, and even if that were true it's a small part of the whole picture.

 

[plumazul]

It has been stated in this thread that one of the reasons for needing to racially discriminate in med school admissions is because URM patients don't trust white doctors...it's not a straw man if I'm actually responding to a point made by someone

I was referring to the predicate. (and it was most definitely a "straw man")

 

[deleted480308]

Not exactly, and even if that were true it's a small part of the whole picture.

There absolutely were people making the point...you might not think it's a large factor, but it was certainly presented as being a factor.

But they are taught it. It sounds like some of you have been in academia too long. I knew the entire history of my people before I was 10 years old, it would be another decade before I took a course in it in college. It's called oral communication or tradition. And it can happen outside of classrooms. You think the people affected in Alabama didn't tell their family members in Mississippi, Louisiana, or Tennessee? And those people don't tell their children and grand children?

Some poor black people in the south:
"Using a convenience sample of 301 African Americans in Durham, North Carolina, Sengupta et al.37utilized structural equation modeling to explore distrust and other factors that might influence willingness to participate in AIDS research by means of a cross-sectional survey. Respondents were classified by income level (below poverty vs. lower- to upper-middle class). The investigators hypothesized that impoverished participants would not be able to answer questions about the USPHS Syphilis Study at Tuskegee due to their lack of knowledge. As a result, Sengupta et al.37 over sampled from the lower- to upper-middle class subgroup to attain statistical power on questions pertaining to the study. Approximately two-thirds of the sample indicated they had heard of the USPHS Syphilis Study at Tuskegee."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1828138/

Mail and telephone survey outside of the south:
The under-representation of racial/ethnic minorities among medical research participants has recently resulted in mandates for their inclusion by the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Therefore, there is a need to determine how history, attitudes, cultural beliefs, social issues, and investigator behavior affect minority enrollment in medical research studies. From January 1998 to March 1999, 179 African-American and white residents of the Detroit Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area (PMSA) participated in a mail and telephone survey designed to examine impediments to African-American participation in medical research studies. Chi-square tests were performed to assess differences between the study groups using the Survey Data Analysis Program (SUDAAN). Eighty-one percent of African Americans and 28% of whites had knowledge of the Tuskegee Study (p = <0.001). Knowledge of the Tuskegee Study resulted in less trust of researchers for 51% of African-Americans and 17% of whites (p = 0.02). Forty-six percent of African-Americans and 34% of whites indicated that their knowledge of the study would affect future research participation decisions (p = 0.25).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2568333/

I disagree that it takes "considerable volition" to have knowledge of this event, all it takes is for someone to repeat what they've been told. Rumors are not hard to propagate, especially particularly scandalous ones. And your "travels" are irrelevant as that would not be the primary mode of communicating this event to the population in question, unless you were polling poverty level blacks in America.


I do not subscribe to this dogma, I'm not sure the scientific community at large does either. You might be lonely on this hill.


If those same people get accepted to medical school and harbor contempt toward all of their URM classmates over perceived, not proven, admissions preference then we have huge problems, I'd agree. I don't think this is reality though.

Do I have to be a minority to understand their plight and sympathize with them? If anything, my personal experience having minority friends and roommates and my clinical experience, working with patients in underserved areas has really opened my eyes to a lot of things. Tell me, do you have to be directly affected by something tragic to become fearful? The Tuskegee incident was not an isolated incident. Things like that have happened numerous times throughout our history, some not that long ago. So, for you it may be a thing in the past for others it’s just another reason to fear going to the doctor. When you consider this and add the fact that the US Public Health service has, on occasion, failed to act on certain diseases since they only affected poor minority populations you get the outcome we have now. A system in medicine where minorities don’t feel they matter or receive quality care. A system they feel will use them or their children as guinea pigs without their consent just because they are minorities (research the CDC incident 1990 in LA). This is not really about slavery and segregation, although those events do play a role in why certain things are in our country. Whether you like it or not, our history is dark and we have done some awful things to minority populations to betray their trust. There is no sweeping it under the rug. The path to equality is paved with forgiveness but forgiving doesn’t necessarily mean forgetting. It’s almost human nature to be apprehensive when someone does something to lose your trust, particularity when it happens again and again. So how about you forgive those who are still a little reluctant to trust again, especially with something as important as their life.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with the change in the educational system. The point being that changing the educational system is a large scale political affair that will not be attainable in the immediate future. There is a lot of work going on to this already (and had been for some time). Medical school admissions is trying to do their best to address the healthcare disparities in the short term. After all we can't tell people to stop getting sick or dying until we can fix the educational system that will help address their concerns several decades down the road. And since the scores required to be successful meet the threshold this is a logical and acceptable solution to increase physician training. I don't think anyone has yet provided immediate solutions to that specific goal- physician training.

And I think Womb Raider's dismissal of this need because the people with the most trust issues are dying it will die soon is completely insensitive: most geriatric care are in cases where those patients are dying or may die soon anyway. So does that mean we shouldn't care about their needs? Should we also pass that to the terminal ill?

These policies aren't set in stone to continue for an indefinite amount of time. It is set to address a specific issue in the present. And as demographics change so will the policies as someone had pointed out many times. We have a growing immigrant population for example and an urgent need for care from doctors that share language and culture with these patients to increase the effectiveness of treatment and encourage them to take better care of themselves. When numbers become proportionate then there is no need to specifically seek anyone of a certain background. And as I said before when minority numbers in professional schools increase the subsequent education and elevation of their children, their extended family, and their communities also raise significantly. Which have the amazing long term effects of providing better educational opportunities for members of current URM communities and you will see the gap between GPAs and MCAT scores begin to close.

 

[mrh125]

The whole diversity idea in the way people seem to define it often times is really off. There are more factors than race that dictate diversity and should be taken into account. You could have 10 asian or white people in the same room who have a wealth of life experiences, know 5 languages each, and diverse insight thought patterns and insight to life while a hundred people of different races together could have less diverse experiences and points of view. Going by race alone leaves a lot of context out including socioeconomic status. For example what happens to a white person who lives below poverty line? Are their experiences discounted because they may not have it as rough as URMs? (someone actually said this should be the case in an earlier thread). URM status is a positive thing to a degree because it is a subjective factor in the admissions process, however flawed it may be. I'd rather have any subjective factor however flawed it is over another metric like the MCAT because it's just a number which may indicate something depending on how you look at*.

I wish they would extrapolate URM status to include factors aside from sexual preference and race. It's annoying and messed up how only certain kinds of diversity are acceptable too, like god forbid I mention dealing with a mental disorder in my medical school application that really influenced my work ethic, drive to succeed and pushed through my difficult circumstances and life experiences (ADHD). That really irritated me for a while. It's basically like saying "my diversity is ok, but yours isn't." People will bend over backwards for you if you're a certain kind of diverse but ignore you and denigrate you if you're another kind. It's just wrong.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Day 2 after legs day and my legs are sore as F.

Nice Work!

Nothin like the pain of a good days work... lasting multiple days

LIFT BIG = BE BIG

 

[el_duderino]

For example what happens to a white person who lives below poverty line? Are their experiences discounted because they may not have it as rough as URMs?

No. AMCAS provides a section specifically for addressing such a situation.

Furthermore, it's one thing to grow up poor. It's another thing to grow up black. It's not like one is better or worse. These are fundamentally different experiences.

 

[BrCo]

I have a muslim friend who wants to be an OB/GYN for other muslim woman. She says there is a lack of muslim OB/GYNs where she grew up, and woman often feel uncomfortable going to the doctors because of this lack of trust. There is a reason why we need a diversity in the medical field. It's bigger than Johnny is getting "preferential" treatment - it's because that person has experiences that you could never have, no matter how many volunteering hours you have. I will never truly know what it is like to be a muslim woman who is scared of going to a white doctor.

 

[mrh125]

I have a muslim friend who wants to be an OB/GYN for other muslim woman. She says there is a lack of muslim OB/GYNs where she grew up, and woman often feel uncomfortable going to the doctors because of this lack of trust. There is a reason why we need a diversity in the medical field. It's bigger than Johnny is getting "preferential" treatment - it's because that person has experiences that you could never have, no matter how many volunteering hours you have. I will never truly know what it is like to be a muslim woman who is scared of going to a white doctor.

If you could develop further cultural sensitivity and understanding you could become a doctor who is better prepared, more understanding, and ready to treat patients. It may not be exactly the same but recognition of others comes in many different forms.

 

[BrCo]

Hopefully every physician is trained to be culturally sensitive and understanding of a diverse group of individuals. Yet the deepest recognition and acceptance of others doesn't mean that patients can automatically trust me or accept me.

If you could develop further cultural sensitivity and understanding you could become a doctor who is better prepared, more understanding, and ready to treat patients. It may not be exactly the same but recognition of others comes in many different forms.

 

[plumazul]

The whole diversity idea in the way people seem to define it often times is really off. There are more factors than race that dictate diversity and should be taken into account. You could have 10 asian or white people in the same room who have a wealth of life experiences, know 5 languages each, and diverse insight thought patterns and insight to life while a hundred people of different races together could have less diverse experiences and points of view. Going by race alone leaves a lot of context out including socioeconomic status. For example what happens to a white person who lives below poverty line? Are their experiences discounted because they may not have it as rough as URMs? (someone actually said this should be the case in an earlier thread). URM status is a positive thing to a degree because it is a subjective factor in the admissions process, however flawed it may be. I'd rather have any subjective factor however flawed it is over another metric like the MCAT because it's just a number which may indicate something depending on how you look at*.

I wish they would extrapolate URM status to include factors aside from sexual preference and race. It's annoying and messed up how only certain kinds of diversity are acceptable too, like god forbid I mention dealing with a mental disorder in my medical school application that really influenced my work ethic, drive to succeed and pushed through my difficult circumstances and life experiences (ADHD). That really irritated me for a while. It's basically like saying "my diversity is ok, but yours isn't." People will bend over backwards for you if you're a certain kind of diverse but ignore you and denigrate you if you're another kind. It's just wrong.

And why do you think they are not? The only people hung up on race are the trolls on this thread. Wiser people then us are making and implementing policy. When you are fully educated and grow wiser and much more experienced in these issues, then you are free to someday become a medical school president or some other position directly related to policy and help to improve healthcare for everyone. Unless this is not your purpose?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

There absolutely were people making the point...you might not think it's a large factor, but it was certainly presented as being a factor.

There are studies that correlate the Tuskegee fiasco with lack of trust in white providers. But I was responding to the notion that it takes higher education to even know about the experiment.

 

[deleted480308]

There are studies that correlate the Tuskegee fiasco with lack of trust in white providers. But I was responding to the notion that it takes higher education to even know about the experiment.

I wasn't refuting that some minority patients distrust white doctors, I'm saying that using that bigotry to excuse more racial discrimination is wrong

 

[el_duderino]

I wasn't refuting that some minority patients distrust white doctors, I'm saying that using that bigotry to excuse more racial discrimination is wrong

There are more and better arguments. Start addressing those.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I wasn't refuting that some minority patients distrust white doctors, I'm saying that using that bigotry to excuse more racial discrimination is wrong

Yes. But you also asked for proof that it would be better if they were treated by someone that shared their backgrounds. Which has been pointed out many times to have a significant positive effect on treatment and health outcomes. Didn't you say that's all you needed to hear?

Unless you have evidence that an asian doctor physically can't provide good care to a black person or a white doctor can't provide good care to a hispanic patient...then I'm going to stick to my point. A patient "preferring" a doctor of their race is not a justification for unconstitutional racial balancing in admissions. A patient trusting a doctor of their race more is not a justification either (much like it wouldn't be appropriate for a hospital in a rural country area to prefer white doctors because they found some of their patients were as bigoted as those patients that don't like white doctors.

 

[The Buff OP]

Nice Work!

Nothin like the pain of a good days work... lasting multiple days

LIFT BIG = BE BIG

Yeah, dude. I only did squats and leg extensions. I did about 6 sets of squats and 4 sets of leg extensions. Those workouts almost took me 2 hours. I rested for about 3-5 minutes between sets. I called it off early because it was late and I was drained, I needed my food in me.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Just in case you are too lazy to look back..

And again, I’m reposting this. The US department of Health looked into this as well.

The Rationale for Diversity in the Health Professions: A Review of the Evidence

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Health Resources and Services Administration Bureau of Health Professions October 2006

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Several racial and ethnic minority groups and people from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are significantly underrepresented among health professionals in the United States. Underrepresented minority (URM) groups have traditionally included African-Americans, Mexican Americans, Native Americans, and mainland Puerto Ricans. Numerous public and private programs aim to remedy this underrepresentation by promoting the preparedness and resources available to minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged health professions candidates, and the admissions and retention of these candidates in the health professions pipeline and workforce. In recent years, however, competing demands for resources, along with shifting public opinion about policies aimed to assist members of specific racial and ethnic groups, have threatened the base of support for “diversity programs.” Continued support for these programs will increasingly rely on evidence that they provide a measurable public benefit.

The most compelling argument for a more diverse health professions workforce is that it will lead to improvements in public health. We therefore examined the evidence addressing the contention that health professions diversity will lead to improved population health outcomes. Specifically, we searched for, reviewed, and synthesized publicly available studies addressing four separate hypotheses:

1) The service patterns hypothesis: that health professionals from racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely than others to serve racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged populations, thereby improving access to care for vulnerable populations and in turn, improving health outcomes;

2) The concordance hypothesis: that increasing the number of racial and ethnic minority health professionals—by providing greater opportunity for minority patients to see a practitioner from their own racial or ethnic group or, for patients with limited English proficiency, to see a practitioner who speaks their primary language—will improve the quality of communication, comfort level, trust, partnership, and decision making in patient-practitioner relationships, thereby increasing use of appropriate health care and adherence to effective programs, ultimately resulting in improved health outcomes;

3) The trust in health care hypothesis: that greater diversity in the health care workforce will increase trust in the health care delivery system among minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged populations, and will thereby increase their propensity to use health services that lead to improved health outcomes; and

4) The professional advocacy hypothesis: that health professionals from racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds will be more likely than others to provide leadership and advocacy for policies and programs aimed at improving health care for vulnerable populations, thereby increasing health care access and quality, and ultimately health outcomes for those populations.

We reviewed a total of 55 studies:17 for service patterns, 36 for concordance, and 2 for trust in health care. We were not able to identify any empirical studies addressing the hypothesis that greater health professions diversity results in greater advocacy or implementation of programs and policies targeting health care for minority and other disadvantaged populations. Our review generated the following findings:


• URM health professionals, particularly physicians, disproportionately serve minority and other medically underserved populations;

• minority patients tend to receive better interpersonal care from practitioners of their own race or ethnicity, particularly in primary care and mental health settings;

• non-English speaking patients experience better interpersonal care, greater medical comprehension, and greater likelihood of keeping follow-up appointments when they see a language-concordant practitioner, particularly in mental health care; and

• insufficient evidence exists as to whether greater health professions diversity leads to greater trust in health care or greater advocacy for disadvantaged populations.

CONCLUSION

Programs and policies to promote racial, ethnic, and socioeconomic diversity in the health professions are based, at least in part, on the principle that a more diverse health care workforce will improve public health. We developed a framework and reviewed publicly available evidence addressing that principle. We found that current evidence supports the notion that greater workforce diversity may lead to improved public health, primarily through greater access to care for underserved populations and better interpersonal interactions between patients and health professionals. We identified, however, several gaps in the evidence and proposed an agenda for future research that would help to fill those gaps. Conducting this research will be essential to solidifying the evidence base underlying programs and policies to increase diversity among health professionals in the United States.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Yeah, dude. I only did squats and leg extensions. I did about 6 sets of squats and 4 sets of leg extensions. Those workouts almost took me 2 hours. I rested for about 3-5 minutes between sets. I called it off early because it was late and I was drained, I needed my food in me.

Separate day for the Hammies?

I've been pulling back from the heavy lower body lifting, got a tweeked achilles I'm waiting for to heal. I like legs man, it still baffles me people slack on them. If your gonna work out why not be the complete package. Best athletes I've encountered had great wheels, not giant pecs.

 

[mrh125]

And why do you think they are not? The only people hung up on race are the trolls on this thread. Wiser people then us are making and implementing policy. When you are fully educated and grow wiser and much more experienced in these issues, then you are free to someday become a medical school president or some other position directly related to policy and help to improve healthcare for everyone. Unless this is not your purpose?

I've talked to people about this multiple times and have gotten into arguments with people about it before here who insisted that race was THE factor. Can you show me where students with diverse backgrounds and life experiences with lower standardized test scores are accepted over those with great mcat and scores GPA and mcat alone? For example, I have an intense passion for Arabic, Farsi, German, and Italian and have dedicated a sizable portion of my time to studying Islamic culture, teaching myself classical arabic to read the Qu'ran, and learning religions and cultures across the world to better understand those around me. That sort of recognition and curiosity should be favored and I'm not just saying that because of who I am. It really should be recognized and noted. If you're willing to try your hardest and put genuine effort into understanding others and not just phony embellished crap it should be taken into account. There's times almost everyone in the doctor's office would do anything for an emotionally intuitive culturally sensitive doctor and that means far more than a test score imo.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I've talked to people about this multiple times and have gotten into arguments with people about it before here who insisted that race was THE factor. Can you show me where students with diverse backgrounds and life experiences with lower standardized test scores are accepted over those with great mcat and scores GPA and mcat alone? For example, I have an intense passion for Arabic, Farsi, German, and Italian and have dedicated a sizable portion of my time to studying Islamic culture, teaching myself classical arabic to read the Qu'ran, and learning religions and cultures across the world to better understand those around me. That sort of recognition and curiosity should be favored and I'm not just saying that because of who I am. It really should be recognized and noted. If you're willing to try your hardest and put genuine effort into understanding others and not just phony embellished crap it should be taken into account. There's times almost everyone in the doctor's office would do anything for an emotionally intuitive culturally sensitive doctor and that means far more than a test score imo.

I can only give you anecdotal examples, but I've seen it a few times at the more selective NY schools.
It appears that there can be more practical implications for being exposed to one culture vs another for admissions to a specific school (although I could be wrong). For example, in NYC an ORM who is fluent in Spanish and has a history of working with patients in Washington Heights may have an advantage at Columbia (even with lower stats).
Maybe you can find a school with a hospital that treats a sizable Muslim population. That could possibly work out for you.

 

[Narmerguy]

Let's keep the thread on topic. If you find the discussion lacking, you can ignore the thread or actually join in to improve it.

 

[mrh125]

I can only give you anecdotal examples, but I've seen it a few times at the more selective NY schools.
It appears that there can be more practical implications for being exposed to one culture vs another for admissions to a specific school (although I could be wrong). For example, in NYC an ORM who is fluent in Spanish and has a history of working with patients in Washington Heights may have an advantage at Columbia (even with lower stats).
Maybe you can find a school with a hospital that treats a sizable Muslim population. That could possibly work out for you.

thank you for your examples and I appreciate the advice 🙂. I also believe medical schools should facilitate and help people who want to learn about other languages and cultures to help others. Like I'm interested in learning spanish to address healthcare disparities amongst hispanic population. I'm a firm believer that all it takes is a little bit of curiosity and drive to be able to make a difference and I know there are probably many people who could really benefit from a great medical school education and put it to use address the needs of others worldwide. Some people have upbringings where they don't even get a chance to do that regardless of how much they want to. I really wish there was more flexibility in medical school admissions, but that's a whole other issue and there's the nasty government regulated medicare residency cap to deal with.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

thank you for your examples and I appreciate the advice 🙂. I also believe medical schools should facilitate and help people who want to learn about other languages and cultures to help others. Like I'm interested in learning spanish to address healthcare disparities amongst hispanic population. I'm a firm believer that all it takes is a little bit of curiosity and drive to be able to make a difference and I know there are probably many people who could really benefit from a great medical school education and put it to use address the needs of others worldwide. Some people have upbringings where they don't even get a chance to do that regardless of how much they want to. I really wish there was more flexibility in medical school admissions, but that's a whole other issue and there's the nasty government regulated medicare residency cap to deal with.

I believe that some of the California schools (if not all) offer Spanish classes and also give you exposure to a sizable Spanish-speaking patient population. (I once heard that being somewhat fluent in Spanish is an "unofficial" pre-req for UCSD).
Spanish is not difficult to learn, and I can honestly tell you that ppl of LA descent appreciate when others speak their language (even with an accent). Just watch the news on Telemundo and listen to baseball and soccer games in Spanish. I often encourage my non-Latino pre-health peers to learn Spanish. The word "boost" has been used a lot in this thread and I believe that learning Spanish is a way to give yourself a boost.

 

[The Buff OP]

Separate day for the Hammies?

If I'm already going ham everyday when I hit the gym, why overtrain hamstrings?
Yeah, I train hammies on a different day. Like I would do hamstring then hit some tris after, cause I can. lol
I just got back from a quick arms workout to blow stress of my EMT class. The material is not hard. What stresses me out is you get all these chapters to read and most of them will not be on the test.

I've been pulling back from the heavy lower body lifting, got a tweeked achilles I'm waiting for to heal. I like legs man, it still baffles me people slack on them. If your gonna work out why not be the complete package. Best athletes I've encountered had great wheels, not giant pecs.

I got injured once on my knees and lower back I haven't done deadlifts for about 2 years (I know kill me now). I also just started doing legs again because I thought they could shrink so I can fit into some pants, but no they shrank a lil and got fat (less cut)=(.

 

[deleted480308]

Just in case you are too lazy to look back..

Thanks I found the link http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/diversityreviewevidence.pdf

Of the 4 main points they propose, they admit they can't find good evidence for two of them..... "
For two of our hypotheses—that greater health
professions diversity leads to greater trust in health care and greater advocacy for disadvantaged
populations—empirical evidence was scant or lacking." -p16

Regarding the proposal that racial concordance provides better care, the majority of their studies referenced are not studies of outcomes but actually patient satisfaction surveys. They have one study that shows a delay in the time to reciept of HIV drugs with racial discordance but they also reference a study showing no connection between racial concordance and access to coronary angiograms which doesn't seem to make their summary.

It's also a misrepresentation to imply that orms won't/don't provide care to urms , thus necessitating the increase of urm providers. It says on pg 16 that urm patients have been shown to seek out urm providers even without regard to convenience of office location. Another consideration (which would be addressed by my earlier comments, that paying people properly will produce providers where you want them) is the statistics that urm doctors are more likely to medicaid which increases the odds of them being chosen by a urm patient. There are doctors willing to care for these patients but we put large swaths of the population on medicaid with substandard rates and wonder why the doctors aren't lining up to be short-paid.

My belief still stands that any well trained physician can/will provide quality care to any patient, regardless of either person's race.

 

[deleted480308]

I believe that some of the California schools (if not all) offer Spanish classes and also give you exposure to a sizable Spanish-speaking patient population. (I once heard that being somewhat fluent in Spanish is an "unofficial" pre-req for UCSD).
Spanish is not difficult to learn, and I can honestly tell you that ppl of LA descent appreciate when others speak their language (even with an accent). Just watch the news on Telemundo and listen to baseball and soccer games in Spanish. I often encourage my non-Latino pre-health peers to learn Spanish. The word "boost" has been used a lot in this thread and I believe that learning Spanish is a way to give yourself a boost.

I agree that spanish is a really helpful skill. If not for the utility as a provider, for the show of effort toward the patient. I'm still pretty bad at it, but trying

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

I believe that some of the California schools (if not all) offer Spanish classes and also give you exposure to a sizable Spanish-speaking patient population. (I once heard that being somewhat fluent in Spanish is an "unofficial" pre-req for UCSD).
Spanish is not difficult to learn, and I can honestly tell you that ppl of LA descent appreciate when others speak their language (even with an accent). Just watch the news on Telemundo and listen to baseball and soccer games in Spanish. I often encourage my non-Latino pre-health peers to learn Spanish. The word "boost" has been used a lot in this thread and I believe that learning Spanish is a way to give yourself a boost.

What does LA stand for?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I agree that spanish is a really helpful skill. If not for the utility as a provider, for the show of effort toward the patient. I'm still pretty bad at it, but trying

I've heard good things about the Rosetta Stone software (although it's expensive).
Maybe someone you know already has it.

My Spanish needs some improvement as well, and I will definitely get my hands on some language software prior to matriculating.

 

[deleted480308]

I've heard good things about the Rosetta Stone software (although it's expensive).
Maybe someone you know already has it.

My Spanish needs some improvement as well, and I will definitely get my hands on some language software prior to matriculating.

my budget couldn't handle the rosetta stone haha

I mainly piece together scraps of my high school spanish class and help from my friends at church (prob 40% spanish speaking)

 

[altitudinarian]

Duolingo is free and will at least get you to a level of conversational Spanish.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

What does LA stand for?

Los Angeles duh!
Jk Latin American. It's probably the wrong term to use because not everyone of LA descent speaks Spanish (Latin America also includes Brazil). Maybe "Hispanic" is better. And I'm not sure how non-Hispanics from that region are categorized. At least where I'm from, a lot of Hispanics use the word "Latino" to describe their background.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

my budget couldn't handle the rosetta stone haha

I mainly piece together scraps of my high school spanish class and help from my friends at church (prob 40% spanish speaking)

It might also help to get basic anatomy flash cards in Spanish so that you can incrementally learn the terms. Obviously, it would probably be overkill to learn stuff like the branches of the carotid artery in Spanish. But the names of vital organs and terms like pain and high blood pressure are definitely useful.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

If I'm already going ham everyday when I hit the gym, why overtrain hamstrings?
Yeah, I train hammies on a different day. Like I would do hamstring then hit some tris after, cause I can. lol
I just got back from a quick arms workout to blow stress of my EMT class. The material is not hard. What stresses me out is you get all these chapters to read and most of them will not be on the test.


I got injured once on my knees and lower back I haven't done deadlifts for about 2 years (I know kill me now). I also just started doing legs again because I thought they could shrink so I can fit into some pants, but no they shrank a lil and got fat (less cut)=(.

Dude I quit the deads too, I've even started only doing heavy MAN shrugs once a month. My hams need some work... it might be time to give them they're own split.

Epic Chest day... the powers of Jakd compelled it

Back tomorrow with some bicep tendonitis, lifting MAN weights is certainly injury prone... PAIN = GAIN

 

[Womb Raider]

I get the whole concept of wanting to be around someone who looks like you, thinks like you, talks like you, walks like you, dances like you, and understands you on a cultural level, I really do. But don't you guys see where this is going? What it is setting the precedent for?

Obviously we prefer being surrounded by people who we can relate to and connect with, but to what extent? At what point are these things considered a "right" instead of a "luxury?" I find it very frightening that the health system in America is involving itself in these affairs. What's next? Why stop at healthcare?

One could argue that all aspects of life would be more desirable, more efficient and more effective if people of the same race congregated and went about their lives separated from the other groups. Education, for example, is one field I could see being much more effective (especially at an early age) if students learned from people of the same race and cultural background. Why don't we give students the option of attending class with a teacher that is the same race as them? This involves the same issue of distrust between the races that cause problems with the recipient of the system (i.e. patients, students) but why has this thought process not infiltrated the public school system? Are you guys going to claim that your teacher's race as a kid is irrelevant?

Call me an optimist, but I see something more - I have more hope in humanity. I envision a society that trusts one another regardless of their race, skin color and gender and overcomes the outdated prejudices associated with race. I see a society that doesn't need to implement a system of medicine that operates to try to match the demographics of physicians to the demographics of society so that, each patient goes to their race of physician. I refuse to accept that this is the best way to achieve equality and, although I believe we will get there eventually, systems such as this are severely hindering the process.

I hope you guys remember that you're in favor of utilitarian ethics, and the next time you find yourself in a similar situation and feel like you got the short end of the stick, you'll remember this. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

[el_duderino]

Beyond a single patient being treated BT a single physician, there is significant cultural value to seeing minorities succeeding in highly educated and demanding professions.

 

[MangoPlant]

I have a muslim friend who wants to be an OB/GYN for other muslim woman. She says there is a lack of muslim OB/GYNs where she grew up, and woman often feel uncomfortable going to the doctors because of this lack of trust. There is a reason why we need a diversity in the medical field. It's bigger than Johnny is getting "preferential" treatment - it's because that person has experiences that you could never have, no matter how many volunteering hours you have. I will never truly know what it is like to be a muslim woman who is scared of going to a white doctor.

1. Being white does not preclude one from being Muslim.
2. Your Muslim friend won't be getting any URM boost (at most schools) unless she is either Black/Hispanic/Native American. In other words, if your Muslim friend who wants to treat other Muslim women is Asian - too bad. This is what happens when we base Affirmative Action on race and not other factors such as desire to treat specific groups, socioeconomic status, etc. A white guy who grew up in a predominantly poor black neighborhood and desires to serve the black community will have less of a chance than a black guy who grew up in a well-off gated community with doctors for parents, all other things being equal.

 

[el_duderino]

A white guy who grew up in a predominantly poor black neighborhood and desires to serve the black community will have less of a chance than a black guy who grew up in a well-off gated community with doctors for parents, all other things being equal.

How certain are you of that? Did a bunch of adcoms say something to that effect?

 

[LMBLBM]

How certain are you of that? Did a bunch of adcoms say something to that effect?

Because, assuming that a white guy and a black guy are equally competitive, URM boost will go towards to the black guy

 

[el_duderino]

Because, assuming that a white guy and a black guy are equally competitive, URM boost will go towards to the black guy

And growing up disadvantaged in a medically underserved community will also impart a boost that the black kid from the wealthy family of physicians won't have. Who are you to speak for adcoms everywhere by saying that the fictional white kid here will be rejected in favor of the black kid?

 

[LMBLBM]

And growing up disadvantaged in a medically underserved community will also impart a boost that the black kid from the wealthy family of physicians won't have. Who are you to speak for adcoms everywhere by saying that the fictional white kid here will be rejected in favor of the black kid?

Are there any systematic policies, like affirmative action, for socioeconomically disadvantaged individuals? If there is one, please tell me.