URM lying - should I report

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gogetter898

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To preface, this guy is like a brother to me. He was born in Lebanon, but is claiming on his app that he is half Mexican. He has a last name that is defff classic middle eastern, but his first name is a little more ambiguous so I don’t think people would really know.

Should I report this? Do med schools do their own investigations and would find out anyway so I don’t have to get involved? I’ve heard med schools do investigations that span into the third year to catch lies on applications. Not sure if this is true, but would it end up coming out anyway? Does him claiming 1/2 even grant him URM status?

A bit of a moral dilemma on if I should speak up or if the lie will come out in the future so I don’t have to feel guilty knowing. He did extracurricular work with minorities so I don’t know why he has to convert that experience into a lie.

His stats are fine so he would get in anyway. The ethics of the situation just dont sit right with me knowing there are actual URM students deserving of a spot he could take.
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Need more info before I can give an opinion: Are you sure he is not part Mexican? How did you know he marked himself as 1/2 Mexican? Did he tell you he was lying? Is he discussing being an URM in is essays?

gogetter898 said:
Should I report this? Do med schools do their own investigations and would find out anyway so I don’t have to get involved? I’ve heard med schools do investigations that span into the third year to catch lies on applications. Not sure if this is true, but would it end up coming out anyway? Does him claiming 1/2 even grant him URM status?
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I don't think it's feasible to report this, because it is your word against his. Maybe adcoms can chime in. But I'm not sure how you would even report it? Call every school he applied to? Med schools do not verify race cause there really is no way to do that. But they will know where his parents are from, so there's that. 1/2 URM still grants him URM status I believe.
 
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erenyeager said:
Need more info before I can give an opinion: Are you sure he is not part Mexican? How did you know he marked himself as 1/2 Mexican? Did he tell you he was lying? Is he discussing being an URM in is essays?



I don't think it's feasible to report this, because it is your word against his. Maybe adcoms can chime in. But I'm not sure how you would even report it? Call every school he applied to? Med schools do not verify race cause there really is no way to do that. But they will know where his parents are from, so there's that. 1/2 URM still grants him URM status I believe.
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He told me he was lying thinking we would have a laugh about it. He’s 100% Lebanese. Yes, he is discussing it in his essays

How would schools know where his parents are from? I do not recall that part of the app, only names, jobs, education of parents
 
Should I warn him that the likelihood of him getting away with it is slim, not even considering the slimy morals of the situation. He really does seem to think he can pull it off and I kind of believe he can, which is why I was considering reporting.
 
gogetter898 said:
He told me he was lying thinking we would have a laugh about it. He’s 100% Lebanese. Yes, he is discussing it in his essays

How would schools know where his parents are from? I do not recall that part of the app, only names, jobs, education of parents
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Not sure about AMCAS, but TMDSAS asks for parents birth city.
 
Hahah he’s “like a brother” to you but you’re itching to report him.

1/2 Mexican isn’t going to make or break his application either way, I dont think it will qualify him for URM status either especially if he’s including Middle Eastern as well. There are enough highly qualified Mexicans for the top programs. Harvard isn’t going to look at his application and be like oh damn we found a brilliant 1/2 Mexican to fill our URM quota.

And for all we know he may be just messing around. Are you sure he actually has that written down on his application?

Either way, focus on your own application. A close friend trying to ruin another friends career (unless it’s actually something serious) is not good form. If he does lie, karma will get to him eventually, you don’t want karma coming after you...
 
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I say mind your own business. But you are right to feel disappointed and, quite frankly, disgusted. People like this tend to have no respect for URMs. Don’t listen to people saying you’re a “****ty friend” for even feeling upset. If it were me, I would distance myself from this guy.

However, you don’t want to get tangled up in this mess. You don’t want him to try and get revenge on you. Remind him how slim the chances are that he’ll get away with it will be, but let it play out. He will get caught easily.
 
LizzyM said:
Does anyone else get a "asking for a friend" vibe to this OP? In other words, "if I do this, even though I am a strong enough candidate to get in on my own, am I likely to get ratted out by someone who knows that I am not URM?"
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I am 100% Chinese. I don’t think this would work for me...
 
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Just let it be, no need to be a tattle-tale and involve yourself into something ultimately frivolous. Let the adcom deal with it, it's not YOUR problem dude. 🙄
 
Smells fishy.

Assuming this is true, your friend is committing fraud. Would it be any different if they lied about their MCAT score or forged their transcript? Cheating is cheating.
 
sb247 said:
It’s almost like they shouldn’t need to know our race because it shouldn’t be relevant to applications, huh?
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That makes it too easy to squeeze out the racial /ethnic groups that are "undesirable" or who are "taking over" but no one will be able to prove anything because there will be no enumeration of the applicants and matriculants by race/ethnicity. Is that what you want?
 
LizzyM said:
That makes it too easy to squeeze out the racial /ethnic groups that are "undesirable" or who are "taking over" but no one will be able to prove anything because there will be no enumeration of the applicants and matriculants by race/ethnicity. Is that what you want?
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Let’s be more honest here, current policies of asking for that data are actually designed to squeeze out those demographics who are “taking over”.

The folks reviewing applications have no business asking everyone’s race. If it needs to be collected to track for discrimination it should be completely blind to anyone actually in admissions
 
gogetter898 said:
To preface, this guy is like a brother to me. He was born in Lebanon, but is claiming on his app that he is half Mexican. He has a last name that is defff classic middle eastern, but his first name is a little more ambiguous so I don’t think people would really know.

Should I report this? Do med schools do their own investigations and would find out anyway so I don’t have to get involved? I’ve heard med schools do investigations that span into the third year to catch lies on applications. Not sure if this is true, but would it end up coming out anyway? Does him claiming 1/2 even grant him URM status?

A bit of a moral dilemma on if I should speak up or if the lie will come out in the future so I don’t have to feel guilty knowing. He did extracurricular work with minorities so I don’t know why he has to convert that experience into a lie.

His stats are fine so he would get in anyway. The ethics of the situation just dont sit right with me knowing there are actual URM students deserving of a spot he could take.
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This doesn't make you an accomplice in a crime. Just let it be OP
 
gogetter898 said:
He told me he was lying thinking we would have a laugh about it. He’s 100% Lebanese. Yes, he is discussing it in his essays

How would schools know where his parents are from? I do not recall that part of the app, only names, jobs, education of parents
Click to expand...
And for all you know he may have been joking anyway
 
sb247 said:
Let’s be more honest here, current policies of asking for that data are actually designed to squeeze out those demographics who are “taking over”.

The folks reviewing applications have no business asking everyone’s race. If it needs to be collected to track for discrimination it should be completely blind to anyone actually in admissions
Click to expand...

Let's be more honest. In many cases, you don't need the "race/ethnicity" boxes when name, parents' names, place of birth, home address, and languages spoken can likely give a very high likelihood of a correct guess.
 
LizzyM said:
Let's be more honest. In many cases, you don't need the "race/ethnicity" boxes when name, parents' names, place of birth, home address, and languages spoken can likely give a very high likelihood of a correct guess.
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But you don’t address a potential for some racial discrimination via more subtle racial indicators by promoting open disclosure to fuel an open plan to racially gerrymander an incoming class

if you are worried about racial discrimination you keep that as blind to reviewers as possible and have a completely independent group review data for discrimination. I mean, we’re doctors. Blinded studies are pretty much the standard
 
sb247 said:
Let’s be more honest here, current policies of asking for that data are actually designed to squeeze out those demographics who are “taking over”.

The folks reviewing applications have no business asking everyone’s race. If it needs to be collected to track for discrimination it should be completely blind to anyone actually in admissions
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Can we just say ASIAN here?

I'm not liking how you're skirting around the topic.
 
sb247 said:
But you don’t address a potential for some racial discrimination via more subtle racial indicators by promoting open disclosure to fuel an open plan to racially gerrymander an incoming class

if you are worried about racial discrimination you keep that as blind to reviewers as possible and have a completely independent group review data for discrimination. I mean, we’re doctors. Blinded studies are pretty much the standard
Click to expand...

That’s what the Navy is doing. Promotional photos are out of promotion packets, and name and gender are likely to be next. Boards will have no idea what race or gender candidates are.
 
wispyfairy said:
I know a lot of Latinos who were born in Lebanon :bored: Lots of actors/singers/actresses are half lebanese half latina/o. There's also a lot of Lebanese people in Mexico and South America. Doesn't look like you know the full story lol.

Seems like you may be VERY jealous and you sound kinda stupid lol. Looks more like you view him in spite and competition. This isn't your problem. If I were an adcom I'd honestly toss your email away lol.
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This is very inappropriate
 
Sunbodi said:
This is very inappropriate
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I don't see how my post is. I'm tired of people trying to monitor people and determine their minority status. You don't know someone's ethnic background and just because someone does not LOOK like a certain ethnicity doesn't mean that they're not.
 
wispyfairy said:
I don't see how my post is. I'm tired of people trying to monitor people and determine their minority status. You don't know someone's ethnic background and just because someone does not LOOK like a certain ethnicity doesn't mean that they're not.
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no need for name calling. Read the TOS.

ORMs are there because they had the best stats arguably. But I also understand the need for diversity and having good stats does not necessarily mean you become the best doctor.
 
sb247 said:
But you don’t address a potential for some racial discrimination via more subtle racial indicators by promoting open disclosure to fuel an open plan to racially gerrymander an incoming class

if you are worried about racial discrimination you keep that as blind to reviewers as possible and have a completely independent group review data for discrimination. I mean, we’re doctors. Blinded studies are pretty much the standard
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Good point. This was presented in a recent paper on implicit bias in residency selection and med admissions.
How Clinicians and Educators Can Mitigate Implicit Bias in Patient Care and Candidate Selection in Medical Education
by Quinn Capers IV
DOI: 10.34197/ats-scholar.2020-0024PS
 
I am an ORM and I'm just going to say that I am disappointed here with the anti-URM sentiment.
The truth is such few URM students apply to medical schools each year that the sample size is small and obviously scores will get scewed left or right based on that.
Secondly, I will also emphasize that I know multiple students who are URM and actually had higher stats than my ORM friends.
Thirdly, a lot of URM is URM for a reason - socioeconomic status. I don't know what it is like to grow up poor but I know many of my URM classmates do have to worry about family, supporting family, etc.
There are such few URM surgeons/physicians and they would greatly benefit society by giving back to an underprivileged patient population.
Next - URM and ORM are outnumbered by white students in AOA.

There's discrimination against URM students their entire life for not being deserving of an acceptance and I disavow that and the anger towards that. Having ROLE models of your ethnicity/race HELPS wehther you believe it or not.
 
I think a better way to go about representation in med school admissions is to get rid of all racial data with the exception of having a URM checkbox with an optional essay to describe how one is URM similar to the disadvantaged box. That way there would be less discrimination against Asian students in admissions and still representing URMs.
 
Sunbodi said:
I think a better way to go about representation in med school admissions is to get rid of all racial data with the exception of having a URM checkbox with an optional essay to describe how one is URM similar to the disadvantaged box. That way there would be less discrimination against Asian students in admissions and still representing URMs.
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How is there discrimination against Asian students when Asian students are indeed overrepresented in medicine? I say this as an ORM ...
 
iamarosepetal said:
How is there discrimination against Asian students when Asian students are indeed overrepresented in medicine? I say this as an ORM ...
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The median MCAT for accepted Asian students is 513 while it's 511 for white students.

This means Asian students- many of which are the children of immigrants and do not have inherited wealth in the US must perform better than students who have inherited wealth and more social resources.
 
Sunbodi said:
I think a better way to go about representation in med school admissions is to get rid of all racial data with the exception of having a URM checkbox with an optional essay to describe how one is URM similar to the disadvantaged box. That way there would be less discrimination against Asian students in admissions and still representing URMs.
Click to expand...
I feel like the root of discrmination is SES and that race and SES are intangibly equated and entwined (for the time being). Asians and whites are not typically low SES. While there may be discrimination against Asians and whites in admissions, they typically have more advantages growing up compared to African-Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans.

Racism is more than just a checkbox on a med school application. It is a series of interactions all throughout one's life that can make or break your self-esteem, a job application, a career, and numerous opportunities. THAT is why there are laws mandating a certain number of seats for URMs in college/graduate school--to prevent segregation and to block schools from not accepting these minorities.

Just some food for thought.
 
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jhkmd said:
I feel like the root of discrmination is SES and that race and SES are intangibly equated and entwined (for the time being). Asians are not typically of low SES. While there may be discrimination against Asians and whites in admissions, they typically have more advantages growing up compared to African-Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans.

Racism is more than a checkbox on a med school application. It is a series of interactions all throughout one's life that can make or break your self-esteem, a job application, a career, and numerous opportunities. THAT is why there are laws mandating a certain number of seats for URMs in college/graduate school.

Just some food for thought.
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Also a 513 and a 511 are comparable. The number of white applicants is signifcantly greater and fewer Asian individuals (myself included) live in states where the MCAT averages are lower

Also to say they do not count for first generation in med school admissions is a little silly. My friends who are also Asian, first generation students all had the ability to account for this in college/medical school applications and definitely got in with scores SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a 511.

To take this out on URMs is not fair/right.
 
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iamarosepetal said:
THANK YOU
Also a 513 and a 511 are comparable. The number of white applicants is signifcantly greater and fewer Asian individuals (myself included) live in states where the MCAT averages are lower

Also to say they do not count for first generation in med school admissions is a little silly. My friends who are also Asian, first generation students all had the ability to account for this in college/medical school applications and definitely got in with scores SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a 511.

To take this out on URMs is not fair/right.
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513 and 511 are not the same.
 
I guess we should clarify what are the goals here:
- is it to completely remove any indication of race/ethnicity/gender/orientation during the application process? The logical outcome of this would be that classes would be less diverse. Numerous studies have shown that familial SES has a big impact on GPA and mcat scores. This would lead to a further concentration of medical students coming from upper income families with resources to support their children academically and materially.
- is it to ensure that we train doctors to match demographics of our respective communities? There is data that shows that patients have better outcomes when cared for by doctors of their own ethnic/racial background. Add on to this folks with different sexual orientations and gender identifies and it gets more complex. But wouldn’t this lead to a quota system where we try to match the demographics of our communities? That would look very different in LA and Houston vs Burlington VT and Sioux Falls.
- is it to allow for admissions committees to have additional pieces of information when deciding how to put a class together? I don’t know about y’all, but I benefit from having classmates with different experiences and values than I do. It’s an opportunity for me to learn so I can better serve others in the future. However, including this info does present the possibility that some may use the data inappropriately and some applicants will try to game the system.
 
GreenDuck12 said:
I guess we should clarify what are the goals here:
- is it to completely remove any indication of race/ethnicity/gender/orientation during the application process? The logical outcome of this would be that classes would be less diverse. Numerous studies have shown that familial SES has a big impact on GPA and mcat scores. This would lead to a further concentration of medical students coming from upper income families with resources to support their children academically and materially.
- is it to ensure that we train doctors to match demographics of our respective communities? There is data that shows that patients have better outcomes when cared for by doctors of their own ethnic/racial background. Add on to this folks with different sexual orientations and gender identifies and it gets more complex. But wouldn’t this lead to a quota system where we try to match the demographics of our communities? That would look very different in LA and Houston vs Burlington VT and Sioux Falls.
- is it to allow for admissions committees to have additional pieces of information when deciding how to put a class together? I don’t know about y’all, but I benefit from having classmates with different experiences and values than I do. It’s an opportunity for me to learn so I can better serve others in the future. However, including this info does present the possibility that some may use the data inappropriately and some applicants will try to game the system.
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Honestly I just feel the whole process is gamed by adcoms and high income students to benefit themselves.

I'll give you an example. The racial data in AMCAS does not distinguish between ethnicities. This means that high SES Latin American students with many resources (such as Cubans) have similar chances at being accepted as a Mexican immigrant student with less resources because they are both URM.

Adcoms want to inflate their numbers of URM students while also maintaining a high median MCAT and GPA. So even if they know these two students have very different backgrounds they might look solely at stats when choosing between the two because they both checked the Hispanic box.

High SES students know this and in order to game the system they won't fight it.

The system benefits those who are already have money and resources and frankly it's not fair.

I would feel fine if race were eliminated and a box instead for URM with a description because this would hurt disadvantaged students less than the current system
 
Sunbodi said:
513 and 511 are not the same.
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While I don't disagree with your overall point, they actually are not statistically different. There is a 2 point variance in either direction, so a 511 could be a 513 if taken on a different day and two scores whose variances overlap should not be considered to be significantly different. All of this is explained in where you get your score.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
While I don't disagree with your overall point, they actually are not statistically different. There is a 2 point variance in either direction, so a 511 could be a 513 if taken on a different day and two scores whose variances overlap should not be considered to be significantly different. All of this is explained in where you get your score.
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For a single individual there is not much of a difference.

For thousands of students there is a statistically significant difference.

Edit: but I'm sure you already knew this and just wanted me to be more specific
 
The idea that there is discrimination of Asian American applicants in medical school admissions is an absolute myth.

It is a privilege to come from communities that are invested in its young people’s futures and provide ample resources for their preparation and success.
Unlike for the Black and Latino communities, for which the overwhelming majority are provided next to nothing from their school systems, governments, and fellow citizens. Fellow citizens who should be spending more time helping to empower the disenfranchised rather than complain about petty, negligible experiences that ultimately don’t significantly diminish their future success.
 
Sunbodi said:
For a single individual there is not much of a difference.

For thousands of students there is a statistically significant difference.

Edit: but I'm sure you already knew this and just wanted me to be more specific
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It’s unlikely they are different even across all takers. The two point band is the 68% CI.
 
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