URM lying - should I report

[deleted697308]

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The idea that there is discrimination of Asian American applicants in medical school admissions is an absolute myth.

It is a privilege to come from communities that are invested in its young people’s futures and provide ample resources for their preparation and success.
Unlike for the Black and Latino communities, for which the overwhelming majority are provided next to nothing from their school systems, governments, and fellow citizens. Fellow citizens who should be spending more time helping to empower the disenfranchised rather than complain about petty, negligible experiences that ultimately don’t significantly diminish their future success.

agreed systemic racism definitely plays a giant role as well in outcomes for Latino and black communities, as well as native American populations.

 

[deleted697308]

513 and 511 are not the same.

I'm a former engineer with a heavy statistics background and they are indeed the save and overlap when you get your test results.

 

[deleted480308]

Good point. This was presented in a recent paper on implicit bias in residency selection and med admissions.
How Clinicians and Educators Can Mitigate Implicit Bias in Patient Care and Candidate Selection in Medical Education
by Quinn Capers IV
DOI: 10.34197/ats-scholar.2020-0024PS

It seems illogical to me that in an effort they pitched as anti racial/gender bias they thought it was appropriate to make removing scores part of the main intervention

 

[beattheprocess]

While I don't disagree with your overall point, they actually are not statistically different. There is a 2 point variance in either direction, so a 511 could be a 513 if taken on a different day and two scores whose variances overlap should not be considered to be significantly different. All of this is explained in where you get your score.

So... a 513 could also be a 515? I'm not disagreeing here, but I just think your point is a little pedantic, especially once you compare the other minority groups 505/507 to the Asians' 513.

The idea that there is discrimination of Asian American applicants in medical school admissions is an absolute myth.

It is a privilege to come from communities that are invested in its young people’s futures and provide ample resources for their preparation and success.
Unlike for the Black and Latino communities, for which the overwhelming majority are provided next to nothing from their school systems, governments, and fellow citizens. Fellow citizens who should be spending more time helping to empower the disenfranchised rather than complain about petty, negligible experiences that ultimately don’t significantly diminish their future success.

lol do you think that privilege was just bestowed to Asians by white people or did they earn it? The work ethic instilled by Asians cultures is absolutely ridiculous and the schooling in China and Korea makes everything in the US look like recess. They study the hardest and get into the higher ranked universities and pursue the most difficult areas of study which translates to more money and privilege. Maybe other minorities should emulate that? Or is the race card so much easier?

 

[GreenDuck12]

@beattheprocess I would be very wary of blanket statements regarding the work ethics minority groups...

 

[deleted697308]

So... a 513 could also be a 515? I'm not disagreeing here, but I just think your point is a little pedantic, especially once you compare the other minority groups 505/507 to the Asians' 513.



lol do you think that privilege was just bestowed to Asians by white people or did they earn it? The work ethic instilled by Asians cultures is absolutely ridiculous and the schooling in China and Korea makes everything in the US look like recess. They study the hardest and get into the higher ranked universities and pursue the most difficult areas of study which translates to more money and privilege. Maybe other minorities should emulate that? Or is the race card so much easier?

As an Asian person, the immigration of Asians in recent decades (other than refugee status) has largely been dictated by US interests in high tech/highly educated skilled labor and education. That is vastly different than the socioeconomic status of underrepresented minorites in the US. Native Americans and black populations have been largely subject to systemic racism and have historically been poor. That has nothing to do with work ethic. Working tough low paying blue collar jobs shows nothing about someone's work ethic.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So... a 513 could also be a 515? I'm not disagreeing here, but I just think your point is a little pedantic, especially once you compare the other minority groups 505/507 to the Asians' 513.

Yes. The 68% CI is 2 points plus or minus. A 513 is not meaningfully different than a 515 despite how much we want to think they’re different. It’s not pedantic. When one of your main points is that the mean for two groups is different when they are likely not, that needs to be addressed.

 

[deleted987519]

@beattheprocess I would be very wary of blanket statements regarding the work ethics minority groups...

Blanket statements about economic status and general privilege are fine

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Maybe other minorities should emulate that? Or is the race card so much easier?

Be careful here.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Blanket statements about economic status and general privilege are fine

You mean between the connection between grades, test scores, and SES? I’d be happy to send you papers on it as this was my field as an educator and have a masters degree on the subject.

Note: In my prior post I did not fault applicants nor parents from upper income backgrounds nor did I make a statement about their work ethic nor did I say they were not deserving of an admission. Simply that egalitarian metrics are not all that egalitarian nor easily separated from one’s economic situation.

 

[deleted987519]

You mean between the connection between grades, test scores, and SES? I’d be happy to send you papers on it as this was my field as an educator and have a masters degree on the subject.

Note: In my prior post I did not fault applicants nor parents from upper income backgrounds nor did I make a statement about their work ethic nor did I say they were not deserving of an admission. Simply that egalitarian metrics are not all that egalitarian nor separated from ones economic situation.

no, not SES & test scores

 

[deleted1063817]

So... a 513 could also be a 515? I'm not disagreeing here, but I just think your point is a little pedantic, especially once you compare the other minority groups 505/507 to the Asians' 513.



lol do you think that privilege was just bestowed to Asians by white people or did they earn it? The work ethic instilled by Asians cultures is absolutely ridiculous and the schooling in China and Korea makes everything in the US look like recess. They study the hardest and get into the higher ranked universities and pursue the most difficult areas of study which translates to more money and privilege. Maybe other minorities should emulate that? Or is the race card so much easier?

This conversation started because someone played the race card, and it’s developed into a group therapy session for folks with fragile egos who need comfort, despite the fact that they’re over represented in the professional world compared to national statistics. Let’s also get rid of this bull**** rhetoric about implied meritocracy. The level of nepotism that exists in medicine , In higher education, and so on is significant. Too many folks I know who I did better on my boards and standardized testing get more leverage because of family connections and mentorship from faculty who aren’t sure how to properly mentor URM students. They then get this psychological complex that they’re naturally gifted as opposed to acknowledging they’re the product of abundant resources, nurturing and nepotism.

 

[GreenDuck12]

no, not SES & test scores

Then I don’t think I understood your prior post. Could you elaborate? I was not aware that my prior post about the outcomes of removing race/gender from admissions was controversial. You can DM me if you like?

 

[deleted697308]

This conversation started because someone played the race card, and it’s developed into a group therapy session for folks with fragile egos who need comfort, despite the fact that they’re over represented in the professional world compared to national statistics. Let’s also get rid of this bull**** rhetoric about implied meritocracy. The level of nepotism that exists in medicine , In higher education, and so on is significant. Too many folks I know who I did better on my boards and standardized testing get more leverage because of family connections and mentorship from faculty who aren’t sure how to properly mentor URM students. They then get this psychological complex that they’re naturally gifted as opposed to acknowledging they’re the product of abundant resources, nurturing and nepotism.

I will speak out and say that having a mentor in your own ethnicity/race is invaluable. This is something underrepresented minorities DO not have the privilege of and often suffer at subjective grading metrics with the concept that is falsely held that they do not deserve to be there. All of this is FALSE and they work incredibly harder than the many seats that go to nepotism.

 

[patnic511]

lol do you think that privilege was just bestowed to Asians by white people or did they earn it? The work ethic instilled by Asians cultures is absolutely ridiculous and the schooling in China and Korea makes everything in the US look like recess. They study the hardest and get into the higher ranked universities and pursue the most difficult areas of study which translates to more money and privilege. Maybe other minorities should emulate that? Or is the race card so much easier?

I would recommend reading about the model minority myth, which praises Asian Americans for playing by society's rules and uses Asian Americans to serve as "evidence" that racism and discrimination can be overcome if only you work hard enough. Meanwhile, the myth allows you to ignore the vast differences in discrimination and racism towards Asian Americans vs Black Americans. The challenges each group faces are absolutely not the same, especially considering centuries of slavery.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So you do agree that there's a difference there's a difference between a 505/507 and 511/513?

Yes, but I never said there wasn’t. I specifically responded to a post claiming the difference between a 511 and 513 was meaningful.

Trying. It's hard you know.

It’s better to walk away or ignore if you have to than to say something to get you a warning.

 

[deleted697308]

So...? Are you insinuating that they didn't earn their skills and education? I see nothing wrong with the US having standards on who they let into the country.



So you do agree that there's a difference there's a difference between a 505/507 and 511/513?



Trying. It's hard you know.




So what? Are you complaining that the NFL/NBA has "too many" black people? Professional bodies don't need to represent the population.



If you want to keep using anecdotes as your main source of evidence then go for it.

having EDUCATION is largely indicative of the precedent for future generations, something that URMs largely do not have because of the systemic racism for decades and the poverty that they were born into. it's not the same and don't even try to compare the two.

 

[deleted1063817]

I would recommend reading about the model minority myth, which praises Asian Americans for playing by society's rules and uses Asian Americans to serve as "evidence" that racism and discrimination can be overcome if only you work hard enough. Meanwhile, the myth allows you to ignore the vast differences in discrimination and racism towards Asian Americans vs Black Americans. The challenges each group faces are absolutely not the same, especially considering centuries of slavery.

Yaassss queen!

 

[gyngyn]

This will be the last warning.

 

[deleted1063817]

This will be the last warning.

Yaass queen is an expression of endearment from those of us in the lgbt community. Hopefully you don’t have issues with the lgbt community expressing adoration.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yaass queen is an expression of endearment from those of us in the lgbt community. Hopefully you don’t have issues with the lgbt community expressing adoration.

That wasn't what the warning was for, and I think you know it. Personal attacks will not be tolerated, and a post of yours that contained one was deleted as was another by a different user. If you two can't keep your hands to yourselves, there will be consequences.

 

[deleted688779]

It is a privilege to come from communities that are invested in its young people’s futures and provide ample resources for their preparation and success.
Fellow citizens who should be spending more time helping to empower the disenfranchised rather than complain about petty, negligible experiences that ultimately don’t significantly diminish their future success.

While I find bits of this agreeable, I would (respectfully) urge readers and participants of this thread to be very very cautious when tempted to associate certain qualities with an individual based on their identities.

 

[deleted889094]

The idea that there is discrimination of Asian American applicants in medical school admissions is an absolute myth.

It is a privilege to come from communities that are invested in its young people’s futures and provide ample resources for their preparation and success.
Unlike for the Black and Latino communities, for which the overwhelming majority are provided next to nothing from their school systems, governments, and fellow citizens. Fellow citizens who should be spending more time helping to empower the disenfranchised rather than complain about petty, negligible experiences that ultimately don’t significantly diminish their future success.

I would point out that some of my URM classmates have complained that they feel there is a stigma about them getting in more easily or deserving to be there less than others. I think there is an aspect of affirmative action type policies that is negative as well.

Also, race does not intrinsically put you in a decided community for SES and resources. For example, most of the URM students in my class have parents of higher SES than mine (based on what information I have and can guess from) So I don't really know what to make of any of this information.

Not trying to make a point, just throwing more info into the discussion.

Edit: typo

 

[BeLikeH2O]

My dad came to the US as a 10 year old with his parents in 1975. They were named "boat people." my dad wears that name proudly. He and his siblings became engineers and scientists. Now, I will be attending medical school in a few weeks. YES, we are privideged and blessed.

 

[deleted688779]

I would recommend reading about the model minority myth, which praises Asian Americans for playing by society's rules and uses Asian Americans to serve as "evidence" that racism and discrimination can be overcome if only you work hard enough. Meanwhile, the myth allows you to ignore the vast differences in discrimination and racism towards Asian Americans vs Black Americans. The challenges each group faces are absolutely not the same, especially considering centuries of slavery.

Food for thought: the model minority myth, including any assumptions behind it, is used by all sides as a tool-of-justification to use Asians/Asian-Americans as a prop to justify their policies and agendas, at the detriment of Asians/Asian-Americans. Even some people who call out the fallacy of the myth turn around and use underlying assumptions of the myth to bolster their own rhetoric. This includes those who claim to fight for social justice.

My dad came to the US as a 10 year old with his parents in 1975. They were named "boat people." my dad wears that name proudly. He and his siblings became engineers and scientists. Now, I will be attending medical school in a few weeks. YES, we are privideged and blessed.

While I applaud and congratulate your success, I hope you understand that your situation isn't reflective of all individuals of the group or the group as a whole. If we play this game, I can pull an individual story from my (Asian) neighbor or the (Asian) kids who grew up in my neighborhood and can claim something completely different about privilege and reality.

I also want to propose individuals here to stop using the term "ORM" (overrepresented in medicine). I used to use this term but I find myself more and more put off by how there is a negative connotation...implying members of this group are otherwise somehow unwelcomed or un"deserving" or that we wouldn't otherwise be here or that our numbers need to be cut down. "Over" implies that our numbers should be reduced. Their representation should be valued and sought. Members of this group are minorities, PoC, a hallmark of diversity, and human beings, to imply that they are somehow "over" is a disgusting thought. If we claim to be friends of social justice then these implications should have no place.

 

[Goro]

Let's drop the URM vs ORM simmering flame war, OK?

Whether the OP is trolling or not, it IS a teaching moment.

Let's posit that OP send a letter to the Admissions Dean of whatever school s/he knows the friend is applying to.

The Admissions dean, long accustomed to angry ex-SOs, psychopaths, disgruntled bosses, sabotaging siblings or parents, will take one look at the letter and throw it away.

The screeners will note a lack of service to Hispanic communities, and act accordingly. If there IS service to Hispanic communities or other underserved, so much the better for the friend.

 

[dptemo]

Now stats do not lie, but I do believe they can be deceitful. ORM avg. are higher than URM avg. but the med school process is so complex, that MCAT/GPA stats do not tell the full story. I had friends who were ORM & above avg stats, but did not get into med school. I also had URM friends with below avg stats get accepted.
Totally unfair right? Well no, wrong. Here's some key parts of the story I did not tell you. My ORM friends who did not get accepted only applied to the top schools in our state. My URM friend applied to every school in our state. My URM friend did not get into a top-ranked school, but they got into a school nonetheless. In addition, I have no idea when they applied, the quality of their PS, the quality of their LOR's, EC's, etc.
C'mon now let's get real, I don't think an adcom is looking through apps and says wow, we have way too many ORM's let's stop and get some URM's.

 

[deleted480308]

Now stats do not lie, but I do believe they can be deceitful. ORM avg. are higher than URM avg. but the med school process is so complex, that MCAT/GPA stats do not tell the full story. I had friends who were ORM & above avg stats, but did not get into med school. I also had URM friends with below avg stats get accepted.
Totally unfair right? Well no, wrong. Here's some key parts of the story I did not tell you. My ORM friends who did not get accepted only applied to the top schools in our state. My URM friend applied to every school in our state. My URM friend did not get into a top-ranked school, but they got into a school nonetheless. In addition, I have no idea when they applied, the quality of their PS, the quality of their LOR's, EC's, etc.
C'mon now let's get real, I don't think an adcom is looking through apps and says wow, we have way too many ORM's let's stop and get some URM's.

Except they literally are as a policy exercising racial discrimination in favor of urms

 

[gyngyn]

Ok, that's it.