URM status

[LizzyM]

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The fact that your MSTP director is worried about how many URMs you have and making sure you're on brochures shows me that even after affirmative action was deemed illegal, that it sadly still exists. 🙁

There is nothing illegal about saying "everyone" is welcome here. We do not exclude people based on race, ethnicity, gender, etc. To do so would be illegal.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

There is nothing illegal about saying "everyone" is welcome here. We do not exclude people based on race, ethnicity, gender, etc. To do so would be illegal.

Hi LizzyM,

Yeah I definitely agree with yout statement. I honestly think race/ethnicity should not matter when selecting candidates. Just pick the best candidates for the positions, and if they happen to be all white men, or all asian women or whatever, it shouldn't matter. If they are the best candidates then who cares what race they are.

FRom his story, it seemed like his admissions director was worried about not having enough URMs, and putting him on the admissions brochure because he's black. To me, this is not right and am pretty sure it is illegal.

But there's no point in me getting worked up about it, because it won't change anything 🙁

 

[Thundrstorm]

The fact that your MSTP director is worried about how many URMs you have and making sure you're on brochures shows me that even after affirmative action was deemed illegal, that it sadly still exists. 🙁

It's not my MSTP director... it was at another school. The brochure comment was about college. And I was having this discussion at a school that has a high % of urms despite the fact that the director crunches the numbers AFTER all final decisions, as opposed to keeping track during apps and trying to fill quotas. He was trying to figure out why other schools actively try to recruit urm applicants and have little diversity, whereas he doesn't have to try and he does just fine. And I told him it's probably partially because he already has a diverse student population.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Hi LizzyM,

Yeah I definitely agree with yout statement. I honestly think race/ethnicity should not matter when selecting candidates. Just pick the best candidates for the positions, and if they happen to be all white men, or all asian women or whatever, it shouldn't matter. If they are the best candidates then who cares what race they are.

FRom his story, it seemed like his admissions director was worried about not having enough URMs, and putting him on the admissions brochure because he's black. To me, this is not right and am pretty sure it is illegal.

But there's no point in me getting worked up about it, because it won't change anything 🙁

Who said I was a black male?

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

darker skin, hair, eyes - I, however, look like Jim Gaffigan

I did a search of Jim Gaffigan and came up with this

If you truly look like this and you don’t speak Spanish or have a "Hispanic sounding name" I would hesitate to check it. But, if you honestly feel it is a big part of you then go ahead... I know Hispanics who are part of the “Spanish elite” in Mexico who are white but, they still speak Spanish and would be more likely to serve the hispanic community well.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

It's not my MSTP director... it was at another school. The brochure comment was about college. And I was having this discussion at a school that has a high % of urms despite the fact that the director crunches the numbers AFTER all final decisions, as opposed to keeping track during apps and trying to fill quotas. He was trying to figure out why other schools actively try to recruit urm applicants and have little diversity, whereas he doesn't have to try and he does just fine. And I told him it's probably partially because he already has a diverse student population.

My apologies for not understanding correctly.

But nevertheless, the fact that OTHER schools try to actively bring URMs to their schools is not very good, in my opinion. I think the school should just accept the best people that apply and not worry about race/ethnic/gender breakdowns of their classes.

It only leads to heated debates and causes inter-racial and social anger even more than what was originally there.

 

[Rafa]

But nevertheless, the fact that OTHER schools try to actively bring URMs to their schools is not very good, in my opinion. I think the school should just accept the best people that apply and not worry about race/ethnic/gender breakdowns of their classes.

Just curious...

As a member of ethnicity X, would you be entirely comfortable being the only X student in a 150-sized class with 149 members of ethnicity Y? Or (to make it simpler), would you be perfectly fine with being in a class full of 150 people who looked the way, thought the way, and came from the same background you did - despite the complete unresemblance such scenarios would have to the real world?

 

[skypilot]

My apologies for not understanding correctly.

But nevertheless, the fact that OTHER schools try to actively bring URMs to their schools is not very good, in my opinion. I think the school should just accept the best people that apply and not worry about race/ethnic/gender breakdowns of their classes.

It only leads to heated debates and causes inter-racial and social anger even more than what was originally there.

Yes but being the best is not just about numbers. Just because you went to prep school and took a Kaplan course does not make you the best candidate. Give the admissions committees some credit. 🙂

 

[LizzyM]

FRom his story, it seemed like his admissions director was worried about not having enough URMs, and putting him on the admissions brochure because he's black. To me, this is not right and am pretty sure it is illegal.(

There is nothing illegal about depicting people of different races on an admissions brochure. (it might be unethical to picture models who are not students so as to have a racial mix but it isn't against the law). In fact, if you were to deliberately picture only white males in all of the marketing materials for a school, what would your opinion be if you were a possible applicant who was not a white male?

 

[Dr.Andrews]

Yes but being the best is not just about numbers. Just because you went to prep school and took a Kaplan course does not make you the best candidate. Give the admissions committees some credit. 🙂

I definitely agree with you here.

However, the study done by the man in California showed that URMs were being let into medical schools with GPA/MCAT scores that were substantially lower than the average acceptance scores. Furthermore, it is not reasonable to conclude that the URMS had better EC's, LORs then the other applicants.

As I said before, whether we agree on this or not, it won't change anything, because schools will always be worried about getting enough URMS to go there, and will accept URM's who have lesser qualifications than ORMS.

No point in arguing about it, it is not going to change. I was just giving my opinion 😳

 

[Thundrstorm]

I wish we could mention race without talking about affirmative action.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

There is nothing illegal about depicting people of different races on an admissions brochure. (it might be unethical to picture models who are not students so as to have a racial mix but it isn't against the law). In fact, if you were to deliberately picture only white males in all of the marketing materials for a school, what would your opinion be if you were a possible applicant who was not a white male?

I think the poster's original contention, was that they purposely went out of their way to pick him instead of asians/whites to put him on their brochure.

I agree that there is nothing illegal about putting whoever you want on a brochure, but it is illegal to give preference to people based on race as the course case in California mentioned in the link showed.

 

[LizzyM]

My apologies for not understanding correctly.

But nevertheless, the fact that OTHER schools try to actively bring URMs to their schools is not very good, in my opinion. I think the school should just accept the best people that apply and not worry about race/ethnic/gender breakdowns of their classes.

It only leads to heated debates and causes inter-racial and social anger even more than what was originally there.

There are reasons why a school would want to recruit minorities:

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/march03/umichigan.htm

and the Supreme Court says that it is legal:

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/1541/

 

[Dr.Andrews]

There are reasons why a school would want to recruit minorities:

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/march03/umichigan.htm

and the Supreme Court says that it is legal:

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/1541/

In his link the author mentioned a court case in which the Supreme Court of California ruled using race was illegal in admissions. That is what I was referring to, not the US Supreme Court.

Again, it's obvious that these topics lead to really angering debates among lots of people, and there's no point to argue about it. 🙂

 

[Thundrstorm]

I think the poster's original contention, was that they purposely went out of their way to pick him instead of asians/whites to put him on their brochure.

I agree that there is nothing illegal about putting whoever you want on a brochure, but it is illegal to give preference to people based on race as the course case in California mentioned in the link showed.

There was a big debate at my college about the brochure issue because the brochure made the college appear more diverse than it really was. The intent, of course, was to encourage more students of color to apply for admission, based on the very principle Lizzy and I were discussing (if there already are students of color, prospectice students are morelikely to go there). Some students felt this was dishonest marketing, whereas others saw value in the recruitment of minority applicants. The question was whether it was ethical to "lure" students to the school by misrepresenting our racial makeup, although the success of such a campaign would, in fact, make the brochure true.

 

[chuhop23]

re those people who keep talking about affirmative action... there is a very good reason why medical schools recruit URMs and it is completely independent of affirmative action. the US health care system fails to provide equal high quality health care to all individuals. it is a fact that minorities face tremendous health disparities and that physicians that are URM are more likely to have an impact on these populations. there has been a lot said about AA but its important for people to understand that the main reason medical schools want URM students has nothing to do with AA.

 

[MollyMalone]

I'm going to ask nicely once more.

Please stop hijacking the OP's thread. If you want to talk about AA, take it to the Topics in Healthcare Forum:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=245260

If what you are saying is not a response to the OP's question, you're posting in the wrong place.

Thank you.

 

[Avalanche21]

The fact that your MSTP director is worried about how many URMs you have and making sure you're on brochures shows me that even after affirmative action was deemed illegal, that it sadly still exists. 🙁

It might be sad that AA still exists, but what is sadder is that racism still exists. I suggest taking a course on racial inequalities sometime. What is sad is that people spend most of their time whining about AA, when they have privilege that others don't. Have you ever heard of redlining? Do you know what it's like to be called a n***** and to be secluded and ignored because of the color or your skin? Are you aware that even some banks give less loans to blacks even though blacks have more investments within that bank? Just some things to think about...any by the way, I'm not black.

To the OP, sorry your thread got hijacked, and sorry I just wrote something off topic. Anyway, I do think you got enough responses to make a good decision. If you identify as Hispanic, then check the box. If you don't, then don't check it. This is not a matter of fractions.

 

[LizzyM]

.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

I'm going to ask nicely once more.

Please stop hijacking the OP's thread. If you want to talk about AA, take it to the Topics in Healthcare Forum:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=245260

If what you are saying is not a response to the OP's question, you're posting in the wrong place.

Thank you.

You're right Molly.

These kind of posts are not constructive to this board and get people a bit upset. There's a reason why people even in society get angry about this stuff! I apologize. 😳

 

[infiniti]

Don't appologize (as this helps no one). Go educate yourself. From your connection of AA to race, it seems as though you don't understand why medical schools try to recruit URMs. Try to read up and understand it. Start by going to AAMC website. Recruiting minorities to medical school is more than just making the class look cute!

 

[Rafa]

There's a reason why people even in society get angry about this stuff! I apologize.

People get angry when they see things they don't understand. Stop apologizing - it helps no one. Just try to learn more about the situation. Things are never as black and white as they first appear.

 

[MollyMalone]

 

[stiffany]

Just curious...

As a member of ethnicity X, would you be entirely comfortable being the only X student in a 150-sized class with 149 members of ethnicity Y? Or (to make it simpler), would you be perfectly fine with being in a class full of 150 people who looked the way, thought the way, and came from the same background you did - despite the complete unresemblance such scenarios would have to the real world?

Well, just because I'm "white" or "of european descent" or whatever and most of the people I know happen to be white, that in no way makes us look the same way, think the same way, or even come from the same background, which is what you're inadvertently implying by creating two ethnicities with these same characteristics and then simplifying your question. Even though most of my current friends are from the college I graduated from (and most are Asian and white), we still have very different families, interests, looks, tastes, etcetera. I've never had a visible characteristic that makes me markedly different than other people (which ethnicity can or cannot do depending on your reference), but I still think I'd be okay being quote unquote "different" if my fellow classmates didn't treat my difference as a crutch, excuse, or isolating factor.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Well, just because I'm "white" or "of european descent" or whatever and most of the people I know happen to be white, that in no way makes us look the same way, think the same way, or even come from the same background, which is what you're inadvertently implying by creating two ethnicities with these same characteristics and then simplifying your question. Even though most of my current friends are from the college I graduated from (and most are Asian and white), we still have very different families, interests, looks, tastes, etcetera. I've never had a visible characteristic that makes me markedly different than other people (which ethnicity can or cannot do depending on your reference), but I still think I'd be okay being quote unquote "different" if my fellow classmates didn't treat my difference as a crutch, excuse, or isolating factor.

Obviously every individual is different, and I don't think anyone is implying that all white people look exactly the same or anything like that. But it's very easy for you to say you'd be okay being visibly "different" if you haven't had to experience it your whole life.

Anyway, I believe the OP's question has been answered repeatedly, and as Molly has pointed out, we already have a longstanding AA thread, so maybe... could we just let this thread die?

 

[baylormed]

two points:

1. referring to the "hispanic features": i am first generation mexican american, but everyone thinks i'm "white" until i tell them otherwise...

2. that study is around 15 years old. i think now there are URM's who work just as hard as the rest of the applicants (obviously, not all of them do, and not all of them deserve spots) i refused to be classified as an AA kid, so i worked my ass off to deserve a spot in med school just like everyone else. it kind of sucks though because everyone expects us to be dumb as ****, that's why they had AA. it's disheartening when everyone expects you to be stupid.

Can I hug you???????????????

😍 😍 😍 😍

I can't tell you how much I agree with the bold statement above. And people don't know what that's like unless they have experienced it themselves.

 

[NubianPrincess]

Off topic - Well, it's always in the last place you look, baylormed 😀

 

[baylormed]

Off topic - Well, it's always in the last place you look, baylormed 😀

???????

 

[NubianPrincess]

The quote in your sig. Darn, I hoped you would get it i'm such a simpsons geek LOL

 

[baylormed]

The quote in your sig. Darn, I hoped you would get it i'm such a simpsons geek LOL

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh.....Haha.

 

[NotAnMD]

two points:

1. referring to the "hispanic features": i am first generation mexican american, but everyone thinks i'm "white" until i tell them otherwise...

2. that study is around 15 years old. i think now there are URM's who work just as hard as the rest of the applicants (obviously, not all of them do, and not all of them deserve spots) i refused to be classified as an AA kid, so i worked my ass off to deserve a spot in med school just like everyone else. it kind of sucks though because everyone expects us to be dumb as ****, that's why they had AA. it's disheartening when everyone expects you to be stupid.

Honestly, that is really respectable and you are a complete bad ass.

With respect to people thinking you are going to be a *******, that really sux. Though it is an unfortunate, but very real, bi-product of the current system.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Honestly, that is really respectable and you are a complete bad ass.

With respect to people thinking you are going to be a *******, that really sux. Though it is an unfortunate, but very real, bi-product of the current system.

A) I personally don't care if others view me negatively lol... I let my work speak for itself 😎
B) what makes you think things will be different if AA was canceled ?
Namely, I was viewed negatively in some of the subjective classes I took in college and, I always felt that I had to prove that I was a good student to be taken seriously... Thus, I am kind of use to it…

 

[MollyMalone]

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

ok I will not post anymore b/c I have nothing to add 🙂

 

[KornKobs]

When you apply as an URM, are you just recognizing that you qualify as a minority applicant, or are you identifying yourself as belonging to that ethnicity? I ask because I'm 1/4 hispanic but have no hispanic features and a European last name and rarely experienced any of the hardships and stigmas with which many Mexican-Americans are faced. Its a bit of a dilemma because I don't want to feel like I'm abusing a system designed to assist those who do face discrimination but at the same time I'm in no clear violation of the rules. Has anyone else had to make a similar decision?

Ok when I apply, I am checking that I'm an urm because I am part Native American. My father's side of the family is very involved in the tribe and they currently live on a reservation in WA. I am also involved when I get the chance to go up to WA for family reunions. I am less than 1/4, so therefore I cannot become a member. My father is a member and actually gets checks from the tribe. The tribe I'm from still recognizes me as Native American and I have paper work for that since I can't claim myself an actual member.

Well, I think that if you can relate to being hispanic (not sure how to expand on this)..and that is part of your ethnicity, then you should put it down...if you normally do that already, I guess. But if you consider yourself, caucasian, or whatever, then you ought to put that. I have made a thread about this before, but I didn't even understand the whole concept of urm...which then led me to think that maybe I shouldn't put that since I'm not an actual member of the tribe because I'm such a small percentage. anyway, I think I have a better understanding of the whole thing.

 

[KornKobs]

if you have a tread and the letters URM are in the title it is an AA thread lol

not everyone knows what "AA" is 😳

 

[Avalanche21]

not everyone knows what "AA" is 😳

Affirmative Action

By the way, we can still save the kitten! STOP THE VIOLENCE! 😱

 

[Pancho Villa]

When you apply as an URM, are you just recognizing that you qualify as a minority applicant, or are you identifying yourself as belonging to that ethnicity? I ask because I'm 1/4 hispanic but have no hispanic features and a European last name and rarely experienced any of the hardships and stigmas with which many Mexican-Americans are faced. Its a bit of a dilemma because I don't want to feel like I'm abusing a system designed to assist those who do face discrimination but at the same time I'm in no clear violation of the rules. Has anyone else had to make a similar decision?

i've decided to repost the original topic of this thread.

so bjorklund, have we answered your question? 😀

 

[Psycho Doctor]

it's not about growing up privileged. It is about the prospect of going to work in an underserved community. Don't confuse the policies used for undergrads with those used by med schools.

oh really? since when did you have to sign up to practice in south africa if you are accepted as a URM? 😕

 

[Psycho Doctor]

To the OP,

Short answer: don't check the box. It is unethical and you would be taking advantage of the system.

Long answer: if you can convince yourself over the next few months that you have a profound desire to care for the underserved, then by all means check it. As riceman04 suggests, then the box would be entirely meant for you. And by being 1/4 hispanic, you would be in a unique position to help those in your community. You could even volunteer at a free clinic this summer to prove your commitment (believe it or not lots of non-urm's, including myself, do it all the time).



This "dilemma" illustrates the complete lack of accountability in the current system. And I reject the idea that this is an isolated case. Applicants all across the country are faced with this same decision right now.

give me a break, all of you. where does it ever say if a URM is accepted they MUST serve the underserved? What if I as a white want to serve the underserved...will I be forbidden to? This is a cheap shot as an easy door in; lets call a spade a spade and stop beating around the bush.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Hi LizzyM,

Yeah I definitely agree with yout statement. I honestly think race/ethnicity should not matter when selecting candidates. Just pick the best candidates for the positions, and if they happen to be all white men, or all asian women or whatever, it shouldn't matter. If they are the best candidates then who cares what race they are.

FRom his story, it seemed like his admissions director was worried about not having enough URMs, and putting him on the admissions brochure because he's black. To me, this is not right and am pretty sure it is illegal.

But there's no point in me getting worked up about it, because it won't change anything 🙁

the supreme court may have ruled AA illegal but did nothong to stop it and in fact claimed school were doing nothing wrong; we all know they are blind; whatever, as you said no one cares and nothing will ever change.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

give me a break, all of you. where does it ever say if a URM is accepted they MUST serve the underserved? What if I as a white want to serve the underserved...will I be forbidden to? This is a cheap shot as an easy door in; lets call a spade a spade and stop beating around the bush.

You remind me so much of myself Psycho Doctor. It's like I've known you my entire life 😍 lol

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Yes but being the best is not just about numbers. Just because you went to prep school and took a Kaplan course does not make you the best candidate. Give the admissions committees some credit. 🙂

I know you weren't talking to me, but just for the record I never took a Kaplan course or any course so all my work is my own and yes I agree it would be nice to eliminate that from the equation. But if you think about it, I was propbably penalized twice; once for not being a URM and then again for being white in an upper middle class area where adcoms just assumed i got the advantage of taking a prep course, which i did not because i was too busy going to summer school taking orgo, shadowing a doctor and working at two volunteer jobs, while studying on my own for the MCAT and wriotng apps; oh yea and excuse me for sleeping 3 hrs every night.

 

[MollyMalone]

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I wish we could mention race without talking about affirmative action.

race=AA=discrimination

 

[Dr.Andrews]

I know you weren't talking to me, but just for the record I never took a Kaplan course or any course so all my work is my own and yes I agree it would be nice to eliminate that from the equation. But if you think about it, I was propbably penalized twice; once for not being a URM and then again for being white in an upper middle class area where adcoms just assumed i got the advantage of taking a prep course, which i did not because i was too busy going to summer school taking orgo, shadowing a doctor and working at two volunteer jobs, while studying on my own for the MCAT and wriotng apps; oh yea and excuse me for sleeping 3 hrs every night.

I'm working a full time job (research position) this summer, volunteering every weekend, working as a referee, and studying for the MCAT. I certainly don't have a very easy life like alot of people think white people do. 😳

 

[MollyMalone]

What I want to know is this: if you all care so much about this issue, why is it too much trouble to talk about it in the place specifically designed for that discussion, instead of crapping all over other people's threads?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I'm working a full time job (research position) this summer, volunteering every weekend, working as a referee, and studying for the MCAT. I certainly don't have a very easy life like alot of people think white people do. 😳

well obviously whites all have the life of leisure and should be discriminated against in all college, med and law school admission; didn't you get the memo? 😱

 

[Thundrstorm]

I'm working a full time job (research position) this summer, volunteering every weekend, working as a referee, and studying for the MCAT. I certainly don't have a very easy life like alot of people think white people do. 😳

Can I come to your pity party or is it a one-man affair? I'll bring punch.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

race=AA=discrimination

You know Psycho, I don't mind it, and I actually think it's a good idea to encourage people from URMs to apply to medical school. I see nothing wrong with going out into the community and encouraging people from URMs to give medicine a shot.

But I don't think they should be given preference in the admissions policies. Would you agree that ecouraging URMs to apply is a good idea?