I'm applying as URM (Native American) and just wanted some other peoples' opinions about it. I am not registered with my tribe, I could be but was raised 'white' so never really thought about it. I also don't look like the typical NA, and just had the thought that adcoms would see this as me perhaps being untruthful? I have some general characteristics, but I inherited the hair and eye color from the only European influence in my family. Just wondering what people think of this....would I be better off to change it to just caucasian?
URM status?
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Do you think of yourself as Native American? Do you still have ties to your tribe? If you say yes, than probably do the URM route.
However, if you were raised "white," don't think of yourself as NA, and have little to no affiliation to your tribe then apply caucasian.
However, if you were raised "white," don't think of yourself as NA, and have little to no affiliation to your tribe then apply caucasian.
I do consider myself to be Native American, more so with values that my families holds than anything else. I have begun to become more involved as I've gotten older (I recently moved to the area where my ancestors are from, and am learning more every day). However, due to things like eugenics and racism, my family never really made it public notice what our history was. My grandparents were persecuted and ran out of their native towns for having an 'inter-racial' marriage (grandpa was Irish, gma is Ojibwa) and therefore really never talked about it too much due to thier harsh experiences.
The main reason I'm wondering about this is the fact that a friend brought to my attention this summer...I have never tried to receive any of the benefits that are available for Native Americans, ie money for tuition or even income from the casino where my family is a founding family (we have an exibit named after us on the premises). His theory was, if I never wanted the freebies then, why do I want the URM status now? I guess I'm just looking for opinions from people who dont know me personally....if it were you, would you file as URM?
The main reason I'm wondering about this is the fact that a friend brought to my attention this summer...I have never tried to receive any of the benefits that are available for Native Americans, ie money for tuition or even income from the casino where my family is a founding family (we have an exibit named after us on the premises). His theory was, if I never wanted the freebies then, why do I want the URM status now? I guess I'm just looking for opinions from people who dont know me personally....if it were you, would you file as URM?
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I think this is a very personal issue which only you can answer. Perhaps also talk it over with your family. URM issues are a bit of a hot button on SDN, and of course the people on here don't know you or your situation well enough, but I'm hoping that you'll only get civil, reasoned responses to your inquiry. Also, if the only reason that you're questioning your initial decision to apply as a URM is your friend's opinion, I'd say discount it. This has nothing to do with your friend.
Regardless, I think that if you are a NA and identify as being a NA, you can (and should) claim URM status. It of course is not necessary to do so in order to claim URM status, but is your goal to return to the NA community to practice as a doctor? Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
Phoenix, I would just like to thank you for always being so thoughtful and giving such good advice! I am definitely just looking to get the general opinion of the situation, as I would like to have an idea of what the adcoms would think about the situation.
I'm not trying to start a debate about URM at all, so please if you would like to put your opinion out there be civil!!
I'm not trying to start a debate about URM at all, so please if you would like to put your opinion out there be civil!!
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My pleasure. And something to keep in mind is that the vast majority of the opinions that you will get from people in this forum are pre-meds (or sometimes med students), and that they are not necessarily representative of how adcoms think. Technically, I don't think it should matter what the general consensus is on SDN as to whether you should check the box or not. Unless, of course, you get one of the adcoms who post on here (LizzyM?) to offer an opinion.
Anyway, I can't imagine that an adcom would hold it against you if you check off URM. Especially based on what you've said above. It really doesn't matter if your hair and eye color are not traditionally that of a NA. But that's beside the point. I think your best bet would be to talk to your pre-med advising department (if your school has one) about this, or even to call one of the schools that you're interested in and ask them about it if you're really concerned. I certainly called a school or two myself and ran some scenarios by them to see if I was on the right track with my post-bac plans, and even later about getting some advice as to whether I should retake the MCAT. It's much better to get these opinions from the schools themselves if you can.
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Simple answer really. If you aren't registered as a Native American, then it really means that you did not put in enough effort to be recognized as such.
Honestly though, if you want the benefits that come with being a NA, then you need to have the sufferings too. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too!
Honestly though, if you want the benefits that come with being a NA, then you need to have the sufferings too. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too!
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highly doubt that ADCOM will question you too much about it as long as you can elaborate how being NA has affected your growth.
To above, I know plenty of black/hispanics who utilize their URM status without ever having endured any race related hardships. I also know plenty of asians who have endured racism and haven't ever had a damn thing handed to them ever.
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Simple answer really. If you aren't registered as a Native American, then it really means that you did not put in enough effort to be recognized as such.
Honestly though, if you want the benefits that come with being a NA, then you need to have the sufferings too. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too!
So have you gone through constant suffering being African American and thus applying URM? You know with your parents being college educated and one having a PhD and all.
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Check this thread out:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=382520&highlight=tribal+urm
It looks like this is a moot discussion if AMCAS doesn't ask you to check a URM box. If all you're doing is checking the box that identifies your race/ethnicity, I think there's no harm whatsoever in checking what you are.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=382520&highlight=tribal+urm
It looks like this is a moot discussion if AMCAS doesn't ask you to check a URM box. If all you're doing is checking the box that identifies your race/ethnicity, I think there's no harm whatsoever in checking what you are.
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If it were me, I'd want the casino earnings (which can sometimes be really substantial), URM status and anything else that was coming my way, regardless of whether I'd ever set foot on reservation. Why not take advantage?
If it's just your grandmother, and you look Caucasian and have an Anglo-sounding last name, though, then people might be a little suspicious.
If it's just your grandmother, and you look Caucasian and have an Anglo-sounding last name, though, then people might be a little suspicious.
Well, without giving away too much personal info...my grandfather on the other side of the family is all Native American also, but a diff tribe. It's harder to document that, as he didnt even receive a social security number until he began working (was born on a reservation when it was considered 'optional' I guess). I mean, he's not even sure when his exact birth day is. So I don't have a certifiable paper trail with that side of the family like I do with the other side. I dont have an Anglo last name...I've actually never heard anyone with my last name outside of my family and it doesnt sound like ANY specific type of name for that matter.
I really wasnt looking to start anything here, and thank you for those of you that gave your opinion.
I really wasnt looking to start anything here, and thank you for those of you that gave your opinion.
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If you consider yourself Native American, then check it off. For the record, no where on AMCAS is there a box that says "URM". You simply check the box beside your race: Caucasian, Black, Hispanic, Native American, Asian, etc. Your interviewer, expecting to meet one person may be surprised when he/she meets you, especially if you look extremely un-native american, but I wouldn't worry about that. Fill out your application honestly and prayer and patience will take care of the rest.
Simple answer really. If you aren't registered as a Native American, then it really means that you did not put in enough effort to be recognized as such.
Honestly though, if you want the benefits that come with being a NA, then you need to have the sufferings too. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too!
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Simple answer really. If you aren't registered as a Native American, then it really means that you did not put in enough effort to be recognized as such.
Honestly though, if you want the benefits that come with being a NA, then you need to have the sufferings too. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too!
What a stupid answer. So should my friends who are black with rich parents not check African American because they didn't have "sufferings" when they were growing up?
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Simple answer really. If you aren't registered as a Native American, then it really means that you did not put in enough effort to be recognized as such.
Honestly though, if you want the benefits that come with being a NA, then you need to have the sufferings too. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too!
TERRIBLE answer
thumbdownTo the OP, there is no URM checkbox on AMCAS. Rather, you just select what race(s) you are. How do you normally describe yourself when people ask what you are? What do you normally put on forms that ask for race? I realize these kinds of questions can be complicated (I always stop and think a little bit about this too).
I think your second post on this thread answers the question: "I do consider myself to be Native American." If I were you, I'd ignore your friend. Not all Native Americans have the same history, the same way African Americans don't all have the same history (just look at the differences between my post and TheRealMD's post, and Vvandenn's response to TheRealMD's post).
I guess I only have one more question that could apply to this discussion, as I have decided that I am leaving myself marked as Native American...is it possible to mark more than one race? I do consider myself NA first, but also caucasian. If I can only stick with one I'm keeping it how it is, I would love to get the opportunity to discuss this with adcoms!!, but if I can have two I would also include caucasian.
This dicussion has also led me to think it may be wise for me to officially register with my tribe. I never really thought I would need a card to prove to others who I am, but maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea of something to have just in case...
This dicussion has also led me to think it may be wise for me to officially register with my tribe. I never really thought I would need a card to prove to others who I am, but maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea of something to have just in case...
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Simple answer really. If you aren't registered as a Native American, then it really means that you did not put in enough effort to be recognized as such.
Honestly though, if you want the benefits that come with being a NA, then you need to have the sufferings too. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too!
Way off base here buddy. OP, I think you should mark NA if you feel strongly about it. My mom is in a similar predicament (she is trying to figure out what fraction of NA heritage she contains to the end of registering with her tribe). Even so, she still identifies with and considers herself African American as well (paralleling your caucasian heritage).
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You can definitely check off more than one race, and you should do so if you feel inclined to do so. I think some secondaries may have the option of choosing only one, but you can definitely choose two on AMCAS. I personally decided to check off the race I most strongly identify with, and in my secondaries that ask about diversity, I have discussed in more depth the way that my ethnic background has influenced me.
In the end, I woudn't worry about this too much. I doubt schools would ask specifically about whether or not you are registered, and even if they do, it seems like you have definite ties to being Native American and it would be ridiculous of them to not acknowledge that. You are a person, not a registration number.
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Here is my take on the situation, being that I am also a registered NA with absolutely no NA appearance.
If you are a registered NA it doesn't matter if you have ever even seen a full-blooded Native American. The reason is the assimilation of native americans was forced. Early settlers gave native americans the choice to "act white" or go live in a refugee camp.
The reason I dont look Native American, or know anything at all about NA culture is because my family was forced to become as white as possible as fast as possible.
If that isn't enough for URM status then I dont think anyone deserves it.
If you are a registered NA it doesn't matter if you have ever even seen a full-blooded Native American. The reason is the assimilation of native americans was forced. Early settlers gave native americans the choice to "act white" or go live in a refugee camp.
The reason I dont look Native American, or know anything at all about NA culture is because my family was forced to become as white as possible as fast as possible.
If that isn't enough for URM status then I dont think anyone deserves it.
Wow bep, you definitely expressed my frustrations with this situation perfectly! It is comforting to know I'm not the only one out there right now with this situation...I wish you the best, good luck!!
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technically thats not the definition of URM....it doesn't matter how much personal hardship or collective cultural/racial hardship you'd be subjected too. URM is simply underpersented for what ever reason in medicine. And NA are definately URMs, but the decision is purely statistics
I personally think the whole URM thing is pretty ******ed. While TheRealMD's statement was a poor answer to the OP's question, it does ring true in the sense if you were in fact never financially or "prejudicially" disadvantaged by your race, why should you get special compensation for it?
Of course one could make the arguement, which is very valid, that prejudice comes with race, but if indeed your parents were professionals, made good income, provided for a good education, how exactly are you at a disadvantage?
As such, I believe URM like consideration should be solely based on social-economic status. If your a poor son of a white dirt farmer in rural West Virgina, without adequate access to health care services, without expectations for professional success, how does that make you're achievements any less significant than someone whose sole "distadvantage" is race? Of course statistically race correlate with economic status, but whats holding you back? the color of your skin or the fact that you can't afford to take SAT prep classes?
As an asian person who has overcome significant financial difficulties, language barriers (which most URMs never had to deal with), and racism, how am I less deserving of consideration? I'm not asking for a handout, just that no one else gets the unfair advantage either.
Well, there are some schools that ask about SES specifically. I know U of Illinois had a question about how many years your family made under the poverty line. I guess for them I am doubly URM....
There is no perfect system to help work out who is disadvantaged. There will always be someone who feels that they are being slighted.
There is no perfect system to help work out who is disadvantaged. There will always be someone who feels that they are being slighted.
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I may be mistaken, but doesn't AMCAS allow you to apply as "disadvantaged"?
Of course any individual of any race who has risen above terrible circumstances to apply to medical school should be given more consideration than the average joe. That said, riddle me this: do you think two students, one African American and the other Caucasian, who come from middle class families of equivalent socioeconomic status are treated and perceived the same by society? Everyone always poses the extremes with respect to the URM discussions, but how about when things are (seemingly) equal?
artaxerxes, I am glad you were able to overcome your obstacles. Trust me, I cringe when I see people cheating the system. Even so, I am highly ambivalent about what the true solution to this problem really is. Of course the
quintessential SDN proposal is "a system where you are only judged solely on your merits." But even that precludes a lot of people (*especially* URMs) from applying. However, should they apply in the first place if they can't get in solely based on merit? But if they don't apply, will there be only be a laughable amount of URMs in medicine? How does one quantify merit beyond numbers? These are the questions that plague my mind.
N
njbmd
Please stay on topic. If you have something to add to the current discussion then reply otherwise start another thread rather than hijacking this one.
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Ay ay, mon capitan.
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What do you all say about someone like me?
Cuban-American (predominant language spoken at home is Spanish)
raised in Hialeah, FL (Medically UnderServed & Health Professional Shortage)
don't identify as White or Black - I'm all shades of white and brown =0)
URM - Environmentally Disadvantaged?
Cuban-American (predominant language spoken at home is Spanish)
raised in Hialeah, FL (Medically UnderServed & Health Professional Shortage)
don't identify as White or Black - I'm all shades of white and brown =0)
URM - Environmentally Disadvantaged?
Well, I know that they decide if you're 'enviornmentally disadvantaged' by the address you list...it shows on your primary if your area is considered disadvantaged, either rural or medically disadvantaged I believe (I'm from Flint, MI, which is def a medically underserved area amongst the general crap hole that is Flint). So that part is up to your address, and decided by AMCAS automatically. There is a list on AMCAS of exactly what is considered URM, I'm not sure about Cuban or not. What race did you check off if you dont mind me asking?
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Anyone know if any hispanic is a URM? (specifically, Cuban) ... Or are only Mexicans and Puerto Ricans URMs?
I've seen other people post on here that being Cuban doesnt count as being URM, but that is just what I have read someone else post. Can't vouch for the accuracy of that.
I wanted to also add that I have contacted a few schools that I have either interview(ed) at or are at the top of my list, and this is what I was told by the adcoms: you DO NOT have to provide them with, or prove to them, that you are enrolled nationally or locally in your tribe. This includes needing a certificate of indian blood for the interview. They all expressed to me that this was viewed by their admissions as a sort of backwards racism- ie requiring one group and one group only to be able to prove their background. One school (NYMC) did tell me she wasnt sure if they would ask for this information once you matriculated or not, but then it would just be for statistical reasons. I know this is something that took up a significant amount of my worries in the process, and thought someone else might benefit from this info.
Edit: The schools I specifically spoke with were Michigan State CHM, Michigan State COM, New York Medical College, Tufts, Wayne State, and the U of Illinios.
I wanted to also add that I have contacted a few schools that I have either interview(ed) at or are at the top of my list, and this is what I was told by the adcoms: you DO NOT have to provide them with, or prove to them, that you are enrolled nationally or locally in your tribe. This includes needing a certificate of indian blood for the interview. They all expressed to me that this was viewed by their admissions as a sort of backwards racism- ie requiring one group and one group only to be able to prove their background. One school (NYMC) did tell me she wasnt sure if they would ask for this information once you matriculated or not, but then it would just be for statistical reasons. I know this is something that took up a significant amount of my worries in the process, and thought someone else might benefit from this info.
Edit: The schools I specifically spoke with were Michigan State CHM, Michigan State COM, New York Medical College, Tufts, Wayne State, and the U of Illinios.
