US MD for $320k or IMG for $100k?

[Stagg737]

I don't know about specific programs, but last year in the NRMP DOs had 3 derm matches, US-IMGs had 4. DOs had 51 path matches, US-IMGs had 41. DOs had 1 ortho match, US-IMGs had 5.

This goes to show exactly what I said above, that in the NRMP, DO and US-IMG outcomes are very similar. Maybe that makes me defensive and a shill, or maybe it just makes me someone who can look at data without any bias.

And yes, the attrition rates at the big 3 caribbean schools are very substantial (15-25%). But that doesn't change the fact that NRMP outcomes for US-IMGs are much better than people state on this forum.

Those stats are nice, but they don't answer my question.

Also, in the past 3 years my school (DO) has matched 2 people into derm at Mayo and 2 people into plastics over the past 5 years. We also matched 8 people into path, 4 of which went to top 20 programs, and 2 went to top 5 programs (Cleveland Clinic and Wash U).

Also, if you want to do overall match rates and include AOA, my school had 8 people match ortho this year which is relevant since many AOA ortho programs are pretty on par with many non-academic ACGME programs. It's also a big reason I'm hoping the merger doesn't happen for my match, since a lot of people have said that MDs wanting to match ortho will very likely apply to AOA programs and take a few of those slots. That's speculation, but it still makes me uneasy.

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[NeuResurgens]

As others have said, U.S. MD. Your chances of a U.S. residency are much smaller coming from a foreign medical school.

 

[pandahunter]

never... ever... go to a Caribbean school.

 

[chipwhitley]

OP, you are asking on a board of mostly US MDs. I would also ask on an IMG forum. You're not likely to get a different answer, but hearing it directly from an IMG will hold more weight, I think.

Don't ask the carribean school's marketing department though.

 

[the argus]

1) look at sacklers website they have NY accreditation as a US school. The letter is on their site.

2) no PDs overall say that. Look at the PD survey. 71% will interview DOs 60 will interview US IMG

3) the NRMP doesn't detail osteopathic students specifically. You're the one that doesn't know about the PD survey.

4) That's just flat out false.

5) not according to the match list on their website.

1. You're right, NY state considers Sackler grads as US MDs for licensing purposes. I didn't know that. Doesn't change the fact though that no PDs view Sackler grads as US MDs, they view them as US-IMGs.

2. If you want to use 60% vs 71% in a survey that only 50% PDs bothered to fill out as proof that DOs are way preferred over US-IMGs, I guess you can. Thats your prerogative.

3. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

4. Again, http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf. There's a reason DOs are included with "independent applicants" and not with US MDs. DO match profile is much closer to IMGs than US MDs.

5. Yes according to the match list, check again.
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm
http://www.sgu.edu/alumni/student-profile-alumni-residency-appointments.html

 

[IlDestriero]

I see a lot of prelim years with no following residencies listed. That's a dead end.
My American medical school had zero of those.
I'm sure they're all in the military or something to explain it...

 

[the argus]

I see a lot of prelim years with no following residencies listed. That's a dead end.
My American medical school had zero of those.
I'm sure they're all in the military or something to explain it...

I count 29 dead-end prelims for Ross (41 listed, but there are also 12 advanced positions listed with no prelim). Certainly not ideal, but a very small percentage of the 800+ matches.

Again, I have never argued caribbean is as good or better than american medical schools. Just that the outcomes are much better than claimed on this forum.

 

[NontradCA]

I'm sure you can guess.
What would be the differential diagnosis of a person who scores well on tests yet chooses a low yield option?

AIDS.

Sorry, it's just my go to answer whenever we do case based learning and the ddx is redundant and obvious.

As an aside, CBL is worthless, like this thread. The OP already knows the answer to his question, he's just looking for any reason to go against conventional wisdom. He hasn't gotten into medical school, so I'm not sure why he's thinking about this. Oh wait, I do. He's looking for an easy, backdoor way into medicine.

 

[chipwhitley]

He's looking for an easy, backdoor way into medicine.

That's called NP school.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

1. You're right, NY state considers Sackler grads as US MDs for licensing purposes. I didn't know that. Doesn't change the fact though that no PDs view Sackler grads as US MDs, they view them as US-IMGs.

2. If you want to use 60% vs 71% in a survey that only 50% PDs bothered to fill out as proof that DOs are way preferred over US-IMGs, I guess you can. Thats your prerogative.

3. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

4. Again, http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf. There's a reason DOs are included with "independent applicants" and not with US MDs. DO match profile is much closer to IMGs than US MDs.

5. Yes according to the match list, check again.
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm
http://www.sgu.edu/alumni/student-profile-alumni-residency-appointments.html

I don't think they view them as US IMGs the same as from the carribean. They get much more competitive matches and that is without a doubt throwing off the data when comparing DO matching with carribean. And if you wanted to just compare the NRMP I think its fair to say DOs match more similarly to IMGs than US MDs but looking at those links US DO still fairs better in the NRMP than carribean by a good amount. Also its giving me total number as some more information would be much more helpful. (Average USLME score/filled unfilled/ percent of osteo entering the match versus US IMG)

Not to mention I checked again and maybe I'm scrolling to fast but I still fail to see those matches. I will check again in the morning and attempt to find them and edit this post.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I don't think they view them as US IMGs the same as from the carribean. They get much more competitive matches and that is without a doubt throwing off the data when comparing DO matching with carribean. And if you wanted to just compare the NRMP I think its fair to say DOs match more similarly to IMGs than US MDs but looking at those links US DO still fairs better in the NRMP than carribean by a good amount. Also its giving me total number as some more information would be much more helpful. (Average USLME score/filled unfilled/ percent of osteo entering the match versus US IMG)

Not to mention I checked again and maybe I'm scrolling to fast but I still fail to see those matches. I will check again in the morning and attempt to find them and edit this post.

I count 29 dead-end prelims for Ross (41 listed, but there are also 12 advanced positions listed with no prelim). Certainly not ideal, but a very small percentage of the 800+ matches.

Again, I have never argued caribbean is as good or better than american medical schools. Just that the outcomes are much better than claimed on this forum.

I read on. In the NMRP 77% of osteo matches. 53% of US IMG matches. Considering US IMGs don't have a fallback (AOA) that really sucks!

 

[Morsetlis]

I would go for the SMP and USMD looking at current trends and developments.

The $100k Caribbean school is unlikely to be SGU, and you will encounter more headache than the money you will save.

 

[the argus]

I read on. In the NMRP 77% of osteo matches. 53% of US IMG matches. Considering US IMGs don't have a fallback (AOA) that really sucks!

I've discussed at length in other threads why that 53% is very misleading and not the true chances of matching as a US-IMG. I'll copy it below if you care to read it.

Like I've said repeatedly, I am not arguing that the caribbean is as good an option as US MD/DO. If you read my earlier posts on this thread you'll see that I told the OP to without a doubt do the SMP. I just think it's important to be realistic when discussing these things, which the majority of people on this forum are not.

I'll give you a perfect example of misinterpreted data used to make half-cocked arguments. This is from earlier in this thread.



This quote was liked by Goro/Lord_Vader/etc, and they're right, that 53% would be ****ing horrifying if it actually represented the chances of matching as a US-IMG, but it doesn't. And it doesn't take much detective work to understand why that number doesn't represent that. But people just throw it out there because it fits their argument, rather than actually understanding where it comes from. I'll put it all here so you don't even have to leave this thread.

If you look at the ECFMG report from 2013,
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf,
you will see that the average time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years.

When people say "match rate", they usually mean the chances of a recent graduate who is in the match for the first time. This is exemplified by the fact that the NRMP data reports actually breaks up US allopathic applicants into US seniors vs. US grad.

But when quoting that 53% you are not actually describing US-IMGs in the match for the first time, you are describing all US-IMGs in the match regardless of how many times they have applied. The NRMP data reports don't differentiate US-IMG senior vs US-IMG grad. There is without a doubt a percentage (~10%) of US-IMGs that manage to graduate from school, but are poor applicants (semester failures, step failures, etc) and are not able to ever match. This small yearly cohort continues to apply every year, builds up over time (hence the 5.7 years above), and drastically skews the US-IMG "match rate".

If you want to include those reapplicants when describing true US-IMG "match rates", then you also have to include all the applicants from those previous years that did successfully match. If you don't do this (like the NRMP data reports), you are way oversampling the poor applicant/unmatched cohort. The NRMP does actually recognize this because they split US allopathic applicants into those 2 groups, they just don't do it for IMGs for some reason.

People try to say the US MD vs US-IMG match rates are 94% vs 53%, which is in fact comparing 2 completely different data sets. The yearly match rates for NRMP defined US grads (i.e. non-matched applicants from previous years) are actually 40-50%, showing that poor applicants, regardless of where they come from, do not do very well in the match.

The first-time match rate for the big 3 caribbean medical schools is between 80-90%. Granted this does not take into account students lost to attrition before graduation, which is no doubt substantial.

But when people say caribbean grads have a ~50% chance of matching, they are grossly misinterpreting the data.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I've discussed at length in other threads why that 53% is very misleading and not the true chances of matching as a US-IMG. I'll copy it below if you care to read it.

Like I've said repeatedly, I am not arguing that the caribbean is as good an option as US MD/DO. If you read my earlier posts on this thread you'll see that I told the OP to without a doubt do the SMP. I just think it's important to be realistic when discussing these things, which the majority of people on this forum are not.

That's a fair point to make but if the number reapplying is that substantial that's a problem in itself. Also they don't separate osteo either and its still way higher than US IMG. So due to those numbers and the PD survey even if you don't count the AOA match DO's still fair better in the NMRP match. Which I think you would agree with? It seems your advising people to go US MD or DO so I guess that's really the take away. Also OP do the SMP or DO!

 

[FutureMDiA]

US MD US MD US MD

 

[iDOliveinMD]

.

 

[soulofmpatel]

Note to the opening poster.

Sadly, I would recommend you go to the US MD school if you want to do US residency. I don't think that you will actually get an extra $220,000 worth of education going to a US MD school, but unfortunately, what school you went to can affect your chances of matching in a US residency. It is easy to say you would be content to match internal medicine now, but only small percentage of medical school grads want to do internal medicine primary care by the time they finish their clerkships. Also, a lot of people are in internal medicine with the intention of entering fellowship. If you want to do a competitive fellowship such as cardiology, oncology, or GI, it matters which program you go to.

When I was a 3rd year medical student, I rotated at a general surgery program where all of the 1st year categorical residents were US grads and all of the prelim residents were IMGs. By coincidence, the IMGs were actually higher performing than the US grad categorical residents (purely coincidental in my opinion). However, I cannot begin to describe to you how much more favorable it is to be a categorical resident. I knew one guy doing a 2nd year preliminary position who could not find a categorical position to continue his training, and he eventually gave up and entered a burn fellowship. He was excellent clinically and very well respected. To quote from the chief resident: "he got far less than what he deserved." I knew excellent 1st year preliminary residents who did not get a position and had to take a 2nd year preliminary position at a different program. It was not uncommon for 1st year preliminary residents to get a 1st year categorical position the following year, losing a year in the process.

If you think about it, one year lost could be a difference of $300,000 mid career earnings in one year versus a $50,000 residency salary, so you could almost pay off the difference in debt in a single year lost in training (not quite if you take into account taxes). Also, consider the possibility that you may end up falling in love with a highly competitive specialty such as derm or rad onc and have great difficulties pursuing your dream.

Again, the $320,000 price tag is ridiculous, and you only have to pay this because other students are not very price sensitive, and there is a lot elitism in medicine. If you in this business long enough, the only think that matters is what you know and what you can do, but you still need to get your foot in the door.

-soul

 

[Mad Jack]

Western Michigan for 500k over Melbourne for free?

Yes, because I could do literally any residency with some hard work coming out of Michigan, but coming from Australia I'd be lucky to match a community psych program in North Dakota come 2019. The merger is getting tighter and tougher every year, and will likely be down to a 30% match rate for IMGs at that point care of all the US school expansion.

 

[soulofmpatel]

Despite what I stated in my above post, I think you guys are underestimating the significance of the burden of educational debt. My wife and I pay $3200 in monthly payments, and we have < 250,000 in combined debt. $320,000 in debt really is a huge burden, and physician compensation is not likely to rise any time soon. Trust me...even if you make $200,000 per year, once you take into account taxes, opportunity cost, starting late to save for retirement, and rising expenses, you won't have as much spending cash as you think.

-soul

 

[username456789]

Despite what I stated in my above post, I think you guys are underestimating the significance of the burden of educational debt. My wife and I pay $3200 in monthly payments, and we have < 250,000 in combined debt. $320,000 in debt really is a huge burden, and physician compensation is not likely to rise any time soon. Trust me...even if you make $200,000 per year, once you take into account taxes, opportunity cost, starting late to save for retirement, and rising expenses, you won't have as much spending cash as you think.

-soul

That's all well and good, but it's a lot harder trying to pay off even $100,000 if you find yourself like many other students not making the cut during the preclinical years of some Caribbean school and you end up dismissed with no recourse.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Caribbean schools: not even once. It's a life -ruining choice, plain and simple.

 

[sazerac]

US MD for $320K, or IMG for $100K? It doesn't matter. In the end the results will be the same.

With either path you will land a job with a salary $80K less than your educational debt.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

For all intents and purposes, when people say IMG they are referring to the caribbean schools.

We all know that there are some outstanding medical schools abroad in many countries including Australia, the UK, Europe, India, etc.

However the number of US citizens studying at those schools remains low. And even though there are some excellent schools, they do still encounter some degree of bias due to lack of familiarity and to concerns for differing standards.

To further clarify some terms for you:
AMG: American medical grad (*traditionally US MD graduate...DOs recently seem intent on shoehorning themselves into this category which while accurate on the basis of citizenship is not accurate on the basis of historical match rates/data which is the primary reason for using the term)

IMG: American citizen studying abroad. Often considered a synonym for carib although as above that's not entirely accurate

FMG: Foreign citizen, attended medical school outside the US.

If DOs aren't AMG what are they?

Applying this cycle to med school, obviously I don't know much of anything so instead of creating a new thread I hoped that some people could possibly answer a few of my questions...

1. Is it possible that a lot of the US-IMG that are not gaining residencies back in the US are going to less competitive international schools like those in the Caribbean versus a graduate of a school like Melbourne or Queensland? I don't see why a prospective resident should be punished for choosing a medical college with a much greater history and prestige than a newly opened US DO school like a Liberty merely because it is in our country. Keeping the students in the US for the sake of being in the US instead of being trained at an internationally recognized medical college seems a little counter-intuitive to me.


2. Will that change after the merger?

Granted this is 2013 data, but at that time a 205 USMLE Step 1 Score for psychiatry which is the field that I want to go into over 40% of applicants matched. I know that a 205 is not a great score but isn't a 215+ very doable? That is not taking into account where they went to school either. I don't necessarily see this ultra high risk that everyone is talking about.


Are you referring to all US-IMGs or mainly Caribbean?


Western Michigan for 500k over Melbourne for free?

Sackler is the only foreign school that caters to us grads that isn't sketchy. When we are talking about schools that cater to american because they couldn't get into med school we aren't talking about world class institutions. We are not talking about Cambridge.

 

[iDOliveinMD]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the clarification. Does that rationale make complete sense to you? I'm sure your completely right it just sort of puzzles me. If I was in charge of resident spots I don't see why I'd choose a person that attended a newly opened private osteopathic school over an internationally recognized institution that has some rich history and more than likely better associated hospitals and medical centers. If both had similar step 1 scores I don't think there should be an advantage to the DO student just because his tax dollars went to the good old USA and their training is more similar to US MD schools. Maybe the Aussies have a few pros over US programs hence them being ranked over dozens of US schools.

I sort of brought this up in another thread but I'll try to explain briefly. I utilized a post-secondary enrollment option when I was 15-17 years old in high school and took over 50 credit hours at a local community college for dual credit. Did poorly. During my official 4 years of undergrad I got a 3.90. Since AMCAS and AACOMAS counts any form of college work towards the GPA totals making my GPA way worse, ~3.40. I sort of platued with the MCAT with a 28.

So with a 3.4 and a 28 I could still get into some DO programs. Australia's medical schools like Queensland only weight the last 3 years worth of coursework so my cGPA would be a 3.93! Queensland average mcat ~28 and ~3.6 cGPA. I'd probably have great shot at getting in. I'm pretty bitter at AMCAS and AACOMAS for holding those grades against me. Sorry not all of us have parents pushing our children for medical school at the age of 15, I was still trying to find myself and fit in. I had no mentor telling me that if you want to go to medical school these transfer credits gpa will matter. If you got this far thanks for reading. Any comments would be appreciated.

The same could be said of DOs who want to compete with American grads, but rightly or wrongly, the perception of adcoms is that if you didn't get into MD, you went DO. If you didn't get into DO, you went abroad. There are a very small number of exceptions to this, but Australia is not one of them, particularly with their tendency to pump out far too many doctors that can't get residency in their own country.

I had a 3.8 and a 35 and went DO, never even applied MD, was trying to save a year. It's going to hurt me through the residency process and possibly the rest of my career, because you are judged based on where you go to school, and that's just a fact. I could get a 250 on Step 1 and there will be programs that will throw my app right in the trash because of where I went to school, but that's life. It isn't fair. So make the right decision and go to a US school, lest you end up with a ton of debt and no way to pay it back.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Hell, I'd go USMD for 500k over IMG for free.

Mad Jack --- I am proud US allopath, but even for me, the scenario you outline is tough. 500k -- you are talking real money.

If the student in this hypothetical situation elects to do low paying specialty, could be in a world of pain.

 

[Mad Jack]

Mad Jack --- I am proud US allopath, but even for me, the scenario you outline is tough. 500k -- you are talking real money.

If the student in this hypothetical situation elects to do low paying specialty, could be in a world of pain.

Not at the rate that new graduates are outstripping residency positions. In 2018, there will only be 3,000 more seats than US MD and DO graduates. By 2019, that number will be closer to 2,100. By 2022, there might actually be parity between residencies and US graduates. Given that the number of international graduates applying in the match is typically 12,000-14,000, even picking a less competitive speciality is far from a guarantee of matching. Hell, even being a US graduate provides no guarantee of matching, MD or DO. But I'd rather spend 500k for a very good shot at a decent residency as a US MD, than possibly waste 4 years of my life for free.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

DO students are more likely to be viewed as "late bloomers" or those who don't do as well on the MCAT. Certainly they are less likely to be associated with any of the attributes I have listed compared to their US MD comparators. If they score well on Step 1, all is forgiven. The opposite is true for Caribbean grads.

I agree with this. Many DOs are DOs for reasons related to their (original) socio economic status, area where they are raised, etc.

 

[Neutropix]

Don't go to the Caribbean if you want to be a physician in the US.

Seriously. Can we just have mandatory FAQ for new users on SDN. That way the same questions don't get recycled every other day. Like force new users to use the search function.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Not at the rate that new graduates are outstripping residency positions. In 2018, there will only be 3,000 more seats than US MD and DO graduates. By 2019, that number will be closer to 2,100. By 2022, there might actually be parity between residencies and US graduates. Given that the number of international graduates applying in the match is typically 12,000-14,000, even picking a less competitive speciality is far from a guarantee of matching. Hell, even being a US graduate provides no guarantee of matching, MD or DO. But I'd rather spend 500k for a very good shot at a decent residency as a US MD, than possibly waste 4 years of my life for free.

Madjack --- I hear you, but what if this person does match and it is peds or FM, etc? How will they contend with 500K (and interest) after residency graduation? That is one bleak scenario.

 

[Mad Jack]

Madjack --- I hear you, but what if this person does match and it is peds or FM, etc? How will they contend with 500K (and interest) after residency graduation? That is one bleak scenario.

Protip: don't match FM or peds, etc, and work a lot of extra hours for your first few years in practice.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Protip: don't match FM or peds, etc, and work a lot of extra hours for your first few years in practice.

Madjack --- good point, but what if you love FM? What if you can't see yourself doing anything besides gen peds? You've got that 500K albatross. What do you do?

 

[Mad Jack]

Madjack --- good point, but what if you love FM? What if you can't see yourself doing anything besides gen peds? You've got that 500K albatross. What do you do?

You have to make sacrifices. Don't do FM if you can't afford to do so. I've got too much debt to do FM myself, it's basically off the table despite how much I enjoy it. What is practucal takes precidence over what is desirable.

 

[Redpancreas]

I've been accepted to a foreign med school which will cost ~100k (I'd have IMG status).
I could start there in August OR go to an SMP program which will cost 320k after everything, but will give me a shiny US MD. All costs include living expenses, but no interest accumulation.

I would be fine with doing residency in Internal, but I would also be fine with gunning for anything more competitive if I went with the 320k US MD.

What does SDN think? Thanks for reading!

Are you just out of college and is this your first cycle w/o success? Also, the SMP route is both expensive and not a guarantee so I'm not sure what you mean in your original post (unless it's EVMS but even then, it's conditional on grades).

There's no real advice to give because while I'm sure if you work hard and do the right things, you'll be able to make your way back to the U.S. but no one including yourself knows if you'll do that. You seem like you'd be fine with primary care so in that case, I'd lean towards the offshore option just because you don't know when you'll get into a U.S. School. A little more information on your stats and previous information would make the decision clearer.


For example,

have you put yourself in a GPA hole?

Solution: post bacc/SMP

Is the mcat your problem:

Solution: do nothing but study for it. A new ones up so even if you've bombed previous attempts, I feel like adcoms will view this one in novel light considering it's a new test and it can't just be a fluke.


Have you failed multiple times at the McAt, have a terrible GPA, have a criminal record?

Perhaps you'd be better off trying the Caribbean.

 

[NeuResurgens]

OP, you are asking on a board of mostly US MDs. I would also ask on an IMG forum. You're not likely to get a different answer, but hearing it directly from an IMG will hold more weight, I think.

Don't ask the carribean school's marketing department though.

I've known people who were told interesting lies.

USLME scores are greater than or equal to at least half of US MD schools, almost all match in the U.S..

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Depends why you are using the term.

If you are being a stickler for the wording and referring only to citizenship, sure they are.

If you are using it to refer to its historical use and to the match data (i.e. to the below chart), it's not accurate since AMG is frequently used interchangeably with US senior:

View attachment 191807


Several posters this year in the match/soap threads would say things like - "I'm an AMG and I went on 10 interviews and still didn't match, how is this possible??" - in that context, the historical match rates only apply to US MD seniors, not DO.

So if DOs aren't american medical graduates what are they? They aren't foreign medical graduates.

Also In terms of overall match rates DOs do fairly similarly (when counting both matches). Just the quality of the matches is different.

 

[mTORC]

Ok, I'll bite:
In addition to your observation: bad judgement, bad advice, ego/hubris, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems,weak research skills, high risk behavior...

How could you say something so judgmental and superficial? You don't know why they picked the schools they went to. I know incredible people who have had to make that decision to pursue their dream. Please, stop trying to box people in to fit your closed-minded view of a complex world.

 

[Goro]

Oh, I don't know, maybe because he's had experience with such people, and personally knows PD who also have????

I've actually interviewed such people, who have bailed on their Carib diploma mills, and now try coming into Medicine via a DO program, and they have exactly the same deficits that the wise gyngyn is referring to. An example: one woman went Carib because "that what her family told her to do".


gyngyn said: ↑
Ok, I'll bite:
In addition to your observation: bad judgement, bad advice, ego/hubris, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems,weak research skills, high risk behavior...

How could you say something so judgmental and superficial? You don't know why they picked the schools they went to. I know incredible people who have had to make that decision to pursue their dream. Please, stop trying to box people in to fit your closed-minded view of a complex world.

 

[mTORC]

Oh, I don't know, maybe because he's had experience with such people, and personally knows PD who also have????

I've actually interviewed such people, who have bailed on their Carib diploma mills, and now try coming into Medicine via a DO program, and they have exactly the same deficits that the wise gyngyn is referring to. An example: one woman went Carib because "that what her family told her to do".


gyngyn said: ↑
Ok, I'll bite:
In addition to your observation: bad judgement, bad advice, ego/hubris, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems,weak research skills, high risk behavior...

That's fine if it is a trend, but these generalizations don't apply to each and every person. To assume everything about a person before discussing their decisions denies them respect, autonomy and opportunities for which they may be otherwise outstanding candidates.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

C'mon, stop. You know the score here. NRMP defines the terms, and DO students do not fall in the "AMG" category. No point getting worked up over semantics.

Yes, your match rate us similar. Is it really "lower quality"? That depends on a lot of factors that are hard to quantify. Personally, I would argue no.

Like tired said, the basis for this is the categories the NRMP lumps grads into. DOs go in the "independent applicant" bucket.

You can also just call them DOs, since that degree is basically only offered in the US* and thus you don't need to clarify country of origin, unlike the MD.

(*yes I'm aware there are a few DO schools in other countries but my understanding is these are not equivalent to a full medical degree and more closely comparable to chiro)

We are considered independent since that's not our main match. There is another american matching system!

Regardless if a DO said I graduated from an American medical school that is a true statement. They are american medical graduates. The NRMP can't change the meaning of words no matter what they meant the term to mean. If you wanted you could call yourself AAMG (allopathic american medical graduates)


I would also agree about the quality statement but people like to associate more matches at academic centers as higher quality. In terms of match % its a similar number.

 

[gyngyn]

How could you say something so judgmental and superficial? You don't know why they picked the schools they went to. I know incredible people who have had to make that decision to pursue their dream. Please, stop trying to box people in to fit your closed-minded view of a complex world.

I believe you may have missed the context (as it was from another thread).
This is the differential diagnosis for characteristics of the pool that chooses the Caribbean over an application (or re-application) to an accredited school. It is not intended to be a description of an individual applicant. I have great sympathy for their suffering.
It is for the interpretation of multiple variables and a complex organism that such differentials are developed (as I am sure you realize).

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

The point is that, if you're going to be talking about the match in the pre-allo forum, the presumption is that (1) you're talking about the MD match, and (2) you will use the terminology that is applicable to the to the MD match.

We can have an argument over semantics and whether NRMP can define words the way it wants, but that's not what pre-allo is for. And pre-allo students here will get better information if everyone is using the same terminology (appropriate to the context, and again, this is pre-allo not pre-osteo).

I don't go over to Dental and expect that everyone who talks about "going into pedo" is trying to get a coaching job at Penn State, so you shouldn't come into pre-allo expecting to be called an AMG.

If I go to an american medical school I expect to be called an american medical graduate. I don't care what you want the term to mean.


Once the matchs combine DOs will most likely be considered AMGs anyway.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

One time I cracked a back.

Tired MD
Osteopath/Chiropractor

Sure why not!

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You want to get a stick up your butt about the semantics of the wording and take personal offense, that's fine.

But when we are trying to clarify colloquial use of terms for pre-meds, in the pre-allo forum, it's not accurate.

I assume it will be after the merger.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I think a lot remains to be seen about the merger

Agreed.

Once the match's combine it will be logical for DOs not to be independent at their own residencies.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

FWIW I agree with you, but it hasn't happened yet, and my only major interest is in making sure pre-meds reading Charting Outcomes understands what they are looking at.

On an unrelated point: how pissed are you guys gonna be when our MD students start doing a 2 week OMM course to meet requirements for the AOA match and start flooding it with applications? If I were a DO, that would concern me a lot. I think there's gonna be some griping the first time an MD matches to a TRI...

I'm OK with US MDs doing AOA programs. I would hope that there wouldn't be bias in either directions though. More fair competition the better. Leave the foreign schools out of the picture.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Yeah, I think that would probably be best, though I think I'd probably have to sell my DeVry stock.

I don't think anything could stop these carribean schools from getting students that are willing to pay

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I'm actually stuck somewhere today, and spent the last hour reading through the Carib forum. Pure craziness. I definitely didn't want to do medicine bad enough to roll the dice like that.

I read through it all the time. Very sad.

I have family members who went that route and went to us MD schools. In the past it wasn't a bad option at all. The people I know at Ross right now seem to be struggling a lot more.

I had carribean representives at my school and they are very deceptive. Probably suckered in some classmates.

 

[IlDestriero]

That's fine if it is a trend, but these generalizations don't apply to each and every person. To assume everything about a person before discussing their decisions denies them respect, autonomy and opportunities for which they may be otherwise outstanding candidates.

They won't have an opportunity to discuss anything with anyone, as they will likely be rejected without a full review.

 

[WingedOx]

I read through it all the time. Very sad.

I have family members who went that route and went to us MD schools. In the past it wasn't a bad option at all. The people I know at Ross right now seem to be struggling a lot more.

I had carribean representives at my school and they are very deceptive. Probably suckered in some classmates.

I read about enough sadness as it is...

But we had some students rotating on the floors of the community hospital I moonlight at today from a "Where the f-ck is that University of the Carribbean" today thru this service... Jesus, the amount these kids are paying not including housing and travel all for the chance to be pondscum applicant in the match is just depressing to think about.