US Students getting rescidency from carribean schools.
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I heard a radio commercial for Ross University yesterday:
"Ross places more graduates into U.S. first year residencies than any medical school in the world."
"Ross places more graduates into U.S. first year residencies than any medical school in the world."
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I heard a radio commercial for Ross University yesterday:
"Ross places more graduates into U.S. first year residencies than any medical school in the world."
I could see that being a reasonable statement. I saw a ValueMD thread that suggests the class size is 450+. The bigger US schools I'm aware of are close to 250. They'd only need to match 55% of the starting class or so to make that claim.
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If they do it based on entering MS1 class size, then perhaps. I've also heard that Ross tosses a lot of people out as they go in order to maintain their "high first-time USMLE pass rate". *shrug*
If you make it through basic sciences and pass the school's comprehensive (NMBE) exam (which lets you sit for the step), and pass Step1/2, then you will get a residency.
That is a lot of steps, but hey, if you can do it then you can get a residency. Especially in FM and IM.
The true numbers out of all that start? According to my experienced estimate.....at one of the "Big 3" schools.....50-60% eventually.
That is a lot of steps, but hey, if you can do it then you can get a residency. Especially in FM and IM.
The true numbers out of all that start? According to my experienced estimate.....at one of the "Big 3" schools.....50-60% eventually.
You can be dead last in your class at Harvard and get a great residency. If you're last at SGU you won't get much. I went to SGU and worked my ass off. I hung out with other students who were serious party people, as I could be, but we were all also very motivated to study and do well, which we did. We all matched very well, and I'm now an Emergency Medicine Attending physician at a big level 1 trauma center. Most of my friends are now in critical care fellowships, one at John's Hopkins, one of U of Penn.
If you go to SGU and do average, you'll get an average residency, maybe a 2nd or 3rd tier internal medicine residency with a chance at a reasonable fellowship after...i.e. cardiology, infectious disease, etc.
But if you go and excel, and I mean work hard (not brown nose your way into knowing people) you can get the gold ring. I rotated in NYC with students from Weil-Cornell Univ. and some of them were absolute *****s. They had science knowledge but no clinical acumen what so ever. But some of them were brilliant. The brilliant ones recognized those of us who were dedicated to knowledge, as they were, and we all became good friends and colleagues.
Skepticism by U.S. programs and hospitals of foreign grads is often warranted based on prior problems. But SGU has worked hard to put that behind and I believe most programs and hospitals have at least a moderate amount of respect for the school these days.
If you get 225's to 260's on the steps as my friends and I did, and know your stuff, and I mean really know it, you look like a doctor that others want to have on your team. If you can't dedicate yourself to that you're going to have a harder time of it, period.
that is really informative - EREROh, can you comment on the success of graduates of SMU and Ross?
Dear ER physician,
I will not take much of your time as I am sure you are very busy, but I was hoping if you could shed some light on the number of foreign graduates that you came across that have graduated from RCSI. From you personal experience that you may have come across, how would you compare caribbean grads to RCSI or other FMGs.
thanks in advance,
Excellent post. I came across the same thing as an MS3 at St Barnabas in Livingston, NJ, and at Maryland General, and at Interfaith in Brooklyn. We'd be rotating with students from other med schools and there was essentially no difference. Some complete tools, and some bright folks on both sides. My friends at SGU went ER, GS, PMR, Rads, Gas, and Ortho. There were plenty of IM's who went on to fellowships in GI and cards.
Everyone that I still talk to (Graduation 5/19/00) would not have done it all differently. Having cake, eating cake.
I am not trying to crash the Caribbean, but I think this post is a little misleading. The number of Caribbean grads currently going into radiology and ortho is tiny...even for grads of US schools those specialties are hyper-competitive and many many students won't be able to get them. I don't know what it was like in 2000...
As for general surgery and ER and anesthesiology, it's hard to get those coming from the Caribbean...I've never met a single Carib grad in any of the ER or general surg. residencies I've been in contact with at 3 major teaching hospitals. This might be different in another geographis area (i.e. New York). A lot of people go down there and don't even graduate. I am certain there are some good students in the Caribbean as well, but they have to overcome more because they tend to get tarred wit the same brush as other students who are less competent, or stereotyped due to the shady nature of some Caribbean med schools. Once they get into residency all should be fine and the playing field is pretty level if you are competent, but the problem is on the front end...certain hospitals/training programs and certain specialties are likely off limits, and/or almost impossible for them to get. You can definitely get something like primary care or psych, and have a shot at stuff like ER and anesthesia, probably general surg. if you do very well in the Caribbean and are a US citizen/green card holder. The competitiveness of GI and cards fellowships has been going up in recent years, as people try to flee primary care...most spots are taken by US grads, though last year a total of 38% in cardiology were filled by DO, US IMG or FGM physicians. GI and cards = definitely not guaranteed, though right now there are still some opportunities.
In 2000 to get Gas or Rad you just neede a beating heart. I completely agree that IMGs are disadvantaged when it comes to residency. I'm an anesthesiologist, and when I graduated I could have gone to any gas program in the nation. Carib grads have to look for the opportunities that exist. The key to being successful is to do well on the USMLE1,2. Although I knew alot of people who were low passes, and they ALL got programs. They went into FM, IM, and Peds.
People I went to AUC with are now:
1. Physician Astronaut.
2. Director of Cardiothoracic ICU at UCLA
3. Director of Peds ICU at major Michigan Hospital
4. Plastic Surgeons-multple
5. Anes, Radiologists, Pain specialists, Cardiologists, Gastro
6. I could go on
Show me how many people who graduated from AUC last year who matched into plastics and radiology...I mean what % of them. It's going to be very, very low...particularly for things like plastics...if there were even any Caribbean grads who matched into a plastic surg residency last year. The fact that you can point to somebody you know who graduated with you who got plastics does not tell much about the chances in general for a Caribbean student, even one with very good USMLE scores. I don't know how competitive plastics and radiology were a few years ago...I'm sure they were competitive, but I know that currently they are very, very competitive...radiology less so than plastics, but it's still very competitive. I'm not trying to hate on Caribbean med students b/c I could have easily been one if I didn't get into a US school and there are doubtless many good students down there. However, to match into something like plastic surgery, even as a US student at a well known medical school who did well in med school, is HARD. As a student you also want to think about what type of residency you want to train in...you want it to be somewhere solid and not a place that doesn't have enough surgical cases, etc. to give you the right training or where working conditions are totally hellish.
trachea, I am glad you have done great in your career and have no doubt that you are talented. However, I don't think we should give unrealistic assessments of what is likely to happen to most students who go to Caribbean medical schools. They should know that many people don't even make it to graduation, and that they might be very limited in the residencies they can get (though still a good shot at less competitive ones). They are gambling if they go down there thinking they will be able to get a spot in things like ER, anesthesia that are medium level competitive...they might but it's damn risky to bank on that. For the highly competitive specialties, I think they should assume they will have a very hard time getting one...can still hope but very unlikely to get those. I went to a med school that is very well known in the states, and even for people in the top 1/3 of our class, and had top USMLE scores like you describe, they were sweating it big time about getting ANY residency in things like plastics, derm, radiology.
I don't think it's true that you, "Just need a pulse" to match into radiology. Usually only the more competitive students at US schools even apply for radiology, and even among those, some won't get a spot anywhere.
trachea, I am glad you have done great in your career and have no doubt that you are talented. However, I don't think we should give unrealistic assessments of what is likely to happen to most students who go to Caribbean medical schools. They should know that many people don't even make it to graduation, and that they might be very limited in the residencies they can get (though still a good shot at less competitive ones). They are gambling if they go down there thinking they will be able to get a spot in things like ER, anesthesia that are medium level competitive...they might but it's damn risky to bank on that. For the highly competitive specialties, I think they should assume they will have a very hard time getting one...can still hope but very unlikely to get those. I went to a med school that is very well known in the states, and even for people in the top 1/3 of our class, and had top USMLE scores like you describe, they were sweating it big time about getting ANY residency in things like plastics, derm, radiology.
I don't think it's true that you, "Just need a pulse" to match into radiology. Usually only the more competitive students at US schools even apply for radiology, and even among those, some won't get a spot anywhere.
I'm not sure why you are posting authoritatively about the Caribbean medical school experience. By your own admission you don't know anything about it. I am only posting about what people I graduated with went into. You don't match into plastics, you match general surgery and then end up in a residency. 8% of my class went into general surgery and half of them went into a plastics fellowship. At the time it was easy to get radiology or anesthesiology. Furthermore I state that most go into FM, IM,Peds, Psych. You state that 38% of cards fellows are not US MDs. Many people from AUC have gone into cardiology. I'm not tying to hype anything, just set the record straight. I know 2 students who did go into ortho. One after first completing an FM residency.
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What is the reality of success from the Caribbean?
I can only give my input, perhaps current students can contibute.
My class started with 76 students, it was the may class at AUC.
Of those people, 1 dropped out in the first week. About 15 to 18 flunked out the first semester, many of them transfered to SABA.
There is a phenomenon in which students have trouble with a course and drop it and then fall back a semester. We lost some people, a handful, but also picked up a handful. So, after starting with 76 first day we ended up with low 50's 5th semester, I think 52.
Of course after basic sciences you get scattered all over the world.
I can only say that, everyone I stayed in contact with directly or through third parties, passed the boards and got a residency.
Most people did IM, FP, Anes, Psych, Gen Surg, Rads, Peds, Path. And that listing is from most common to least.
I would NEVER say that a Carib student is going to get any residency they desire, many programs would rather not have a position filled than give it to a student from the Caribbean. But many programs do exist that will look at an applicant from AUC, Ross, or SGU. I would have been very happy to go into IM and probably would have pursued HEM/ONC.
I agree you're not gonna get neurosurgery, ortho, derm, etc.
I would like to hear some stats, from various carib schools, concerning how many students make it through basic sciences.
Like I said at AUC in the late 90's there was about a 75% chance of making it through successfully.
I can only give my input, perhaps current students can contibute.
My class started with 76 students, it was the may class at AUC.
Of those people, 1 dropped out in the first week. About 15 to 18 flunked out the first semester, many of them transfered to SABA.
There is a phenomenon in which students have trouble with a course and drop it and then fall back a semester. We lost some people, a handful, but also picked up a handful. So, after starting with 76 first day we ended up with low 50's 5th semester, I think 52.
Of course after basic sciences you get scattered all over the world.
I can only say that, everyone I stayed in contact with directly or through third parties, passed the boards and got a residency.
Most people did IM, FP, Anes, Psych, Gen Surg, Rads, Peds, Path. And that listing is from most common to least.
I would NEVER say that a Carib student is going to get any residency they desire, many programs would rather not have a position filled than give it to a student from the Caribbean. But many programs do exist that will look at an applicant from AUC, Ross, or SGU. I would have been very happy to go into IM and probably would have pursued HEM/ONC.
I agree you're not gonna get neurosurgery, ortho, derm, etc.
I would like to hear some stats, from various carib schools, concerning how many students make it through basic sciences.
Like I said at AUC in the late 90's there was about a 75% chance of making it through successfully.
trachea,
I was not trying to disparage you or your classmates.
My concern was that by your post mentioning your classmates who went into things like radiology, plastics, etc. that premeds will read this and think they can go a Caribbean med school and get into those specialties, if they just work hard. As you mention, radiology used to not be as hard to get as it is now...ditto for some other specialties. Anesthesia has become more competitive in recent years...still nothing like derm, ortho, etc. Plastics - there are now 2 models for training - one is "integrated" where you match directly into plastics from medical school, and one is the traditional model where the resident first does a few years in general surgery and then becomes a plastic surgery resident. My impression is that directly matching into plastics is becoming more common (vs. doing some gen. surg and then being able to get a plastics spot later). My strong impression is that it's exceedingly hard to match into plastics currently, and requires that one be in the top of his/her class at a US school (and still may not get in). Along with derm and urology, and maybe ortho, I think plastics is one of the ultracompetitive specialties to get into now.
I'm not posting this to inform you, as I'm sure that you may know more about surgical training than me (IM fellow). However, there are a lot of high school and premed students who read this forum, and a lot of them are being solicited by Caribbean schools, some of which are not that ethical in their recruiting practices and which want to fill up their classes with students/collect tuition and they don't necessarily care if the students aren't well informed about what they are getting in to. I also think the residency situation in the US may get "tighter" for US IMGs, since the DO schools and many US allopathic schools are currently expanding. However, perhaps more residency spots will be created, which might make it no harder for US IMG's to match in the future.
I was not trying to disparage you or your classmates.
My concern was that by your post mentioning your classmates who went into things like radiology, plastics, etc. that premeds will read this and think they can go a Caribbean med school and get into those specialties, if they just work hard. As you mention, radiology used to not be as hard to get as it is now...ditto for some other specialties. Anesthesia has become more competitive in recent years...still nothing like derm, ortho, etc. Plastics - there are now 2 models for training - one is "integrated" where you match directly into plastics from medical school, and one is the traditional model where the resident first does a few years in general surgery and then becomes a plastic surgery resident. My impression is that directly matching into plastics is becoming more common (vs. doing some gen. surg and then being able to get a plastics spot later). My strong impression is that it's exceedingly hard to match into plastics currently, and requires that one be in the top of his/her class at a US school (and still may not get in). Along with derm and urology, and maybe ortho, I think plastics is one of the ultracompetitive specialties to get into now.
I'm not posting this to inform you, as I'm sure that you may know more about surgical training than me (IM fellow). However, there are a lot of high school and premed students who read this forum, and a lot of them are being solicited by Caribbean schools, some of which are not that ethical in their recruiting practices and which want to fill up their classes with students/collect tuition and they don't necessarily care if the students aren't well informed about what they are getting in to. I also think the residency situation in the US may get "tighter" for US IMGs, since the DO schools and many US allopathic schools are currently expanding. However, perhaps more residency spots will be created, which might make it no harder for US IMG's to match in the future.
I don't feel disparaged, but you're not caribbean and apparently don't know any, yet you post here as if you are knowledgable about the carib/residency dynamic.
SGU's residency matchlist: http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/alumni/student-profile.html#residency
http://www.uams.edu/com/comcat/2008...es/COM-Catalog-Officers-Fellows-Residents.pdf
This will give you an idea of how many Carib and other FMG's get into residency and what speciality.
Of course, Arkansas adopted the CA list in the last 6 months and those you see from Nevis and St Kitts, Caymans, West Indies, Belize and Dom Rep will not be able to get a residency or a medical license in AR.
This will give you an idea of how many Carib and other FMG's get into residency and what speciality.
Of course, Arkansas adopted the CA list in the last 6 months and those you see from Nevis and St Kitts, Caymans, West Indies, Belize and Dom Rep will not be able to get a residency or a medical license in AR.
trachea,
not true that I don't know any Caribbean grads.
I do.
It is true that some do well. There was a cards attending at one of the hospitals where I worked who went to SGU, and everyone liked him. Others like you have done well also. I am not disparaging those who go down there for school, and I actually considered it at one point, but did not have to, thankfully.
However, the ground is also littered with those who went down there and didn't make it, and/or got forced into a primary care residency at some hospital with terrible working conditions. Many of those schools use dubious recruiting tactics and just want to fill up their classes and collect tuition, regardless of the fact that they know it's likely that a lot of the students will flunk out, or they don't really have enough good clinical rotations to accommodate all of those students. It's definitely a buyer beware type of situation. Just check the "general residency" forum and you'll see threads by numerous FMG and IMG's who either couldn't pass their boards or got kicked out of residency. If someone goes down there to one of the top 2 or 3 Carib schools and is a US citizen and is actually prepared for med school (I mean in the sense that the person could actually make it at a school on US soil) he/she has a much better chance of making it than the average Carib student. I think a lot of students/applicants to Caribbean schools are not well informed, and/or have just reached the point of desperation and are taken advantage of by these schools, a lot of which are basically just for-profit corporations, and they WILL take your money, regardless of your future career prospects. I am happy that I got good advice at crucial points in my career that helped me avoid rash decisions at a young age.
not true that I don't know any Caribbean grads.
I do.
It is true that some do well. There was a cards attending at one of the hospitals where I worked who went to SGU, and everyone liked him. Others like you have done well also. I am not disparaging those who go down there for school, and I actually considered it at one point, but did not have to, thankfully.
However, the ground is also littered with those who went down there and didn't make it, and/or got forced into a primary care residency at some hospital with terrible working conditions. Many of those schools use dubious recruiting tactics and just want to fill up their classes and collect tuition, regardless of the fact that they know it's likely that a lot of the students will flunk out, or they don't really have enough good clinical rotations to accommodate all of those students. It's definitely a buyer beware type of situation. Just check the "general residency" forum and you'll see threads by numerous FMG and IMG's who either couldn't pass their boards or got kicked out of residency. If someone goes down there to one of the top 2 or 3 Carib schools and is a US citizen and is actually prepared for med school (I mean in the sense that the person could actually make it at a school on US soil) he/she has a much better chance of making it than the average Carib student. I think a lot of students/applicants to Caribbean schools are not well informed, and/or have just reached the point of desperation and are taken advantage of by these schools, a lot of which are basically just for-profit corporations, and they WILL take your money, regardless of your future career prospects. I am happy that I got good advice at crucial points in my career that helped me avoid rash decisions at a young age.
EXACTLY....I don`t think that it is the Carib medschool education's fault for those ppl not passing their boards oo (ESPECIALLY) being kicked out. This is just a normal consequence for admiting MANY students with lower GPA's....few ACTUALLY have the capacity to go through medical school, THAT is of no surprise.
Right on dragonfly 99. I did go Caribbean. What you are describing is precisely what I have seen. Great grades. Good Step scores. Still many stuck at crappy hospitals with far fewer options than they were led to believe existed. There's nothing wrong with being honest. Nobody's saying it isn't possible to go great places and get a great specialty. It's just not as likely/easy as many people want to believe.
Where did you get this info on Arkanas? I just looked at their Board site, and did not give a list like CA does...
check it out:
http://www.armedicalboard.org/support/FAQ/sub-req-PH.asp
check it out:
http://www.armedicalboard.org/support/FAQ/sub-req-PH.asp
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