Usacs partner shares

[GeneralVeers]

The problem is that you can't always be an owner. In most states there is no opportunity to be in an SDG.

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[devlyyn]

I'm not trying to make an argument for CMG vs others, just clarifying. The valuation is done just how any non-publically traded company is done. How do you think they value shares for any other company that's not publically traded? Because of all the mergers and recent upheavals in the whole EM market, it can be tricky. I don't think that is set in stone yet. From what I understand, at set intervals you have the chance to sell your shares or you can sell when you leave. This isn't some weird scam, I think this is common practice for privately trade companies. And again, they're offering "$75k worth" of shares, if you think its stupid then don't accept it. Subtract or add to your total comp if you want.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

I'm not trying to make an argument for CMG vs others, just clarifying. The valuation is done just how any non-publically traded company is done. How do you think they value shares for any other company that's not publically traded? Because of all the mergers and recent upheavals in the whole EM market, it can be tricky. I don't think that is set in stone yet. From what I understand, at set intervals you have the chance to sell your shares or you can sell when you leave. This isn't some weird scam, I think this is common practice for privately trade companies. And again, they're offering "$75k worth" of shares, if you think its stupid then don't accept it. Subtract or add to your total comp if you want.

When you're making $170/hr what is another 75k?

 

[RustedFox]

I'm not trying to make an argument for CMG vs others, just clarifying. The valuation is done just how any non-publically traded company is done. How do you think they value shares for any other company that's not publically traded? Because of all the mergers and recent upheavals in the whole EM market, it can be tricky. I don't think that is set in stone yet. From what I understand, at set intervals you have the chance to sell your shares or you can sell when you leave. This isn't some weird scam, I think this is common practice for privately trade companies. And again, they're offering "$75k worth" of shares, if you think its stupid then don't accept it. Subtract or add to your total comp if you want.

Its not the "total comp" that's stupid. Its believing that this is the value of these "shares" that is stupid.

Mergers, upheaveals, and unicorn farts be damned - I'm not going to buy a coin worth 75K if the only person who tells me its worth 75K is the guy selling it. Especially when the guys earning the money are paid CA nursing wages when the CEO buys a motor home just for his college football tailgate parties.

If MotorHomeDickHead goes to prison for whatever and the whole house of cards goes up in flames.... I'm sure that he has a golden parachute, but those shares that you bought are worth dust.

I had a phone interview with the USASSKISS folks last year. It was really insulting. I posted a thread about it.

This is one vulpine opinion, but that what this forum is for:

SDGs:

Rule #1: Don't be a d!ck. A reasonable buy-in period is 2 years. Maaaaybe 3 years if the risk/reward ratio is right. Life is what happens when you were busy making other plans. I changed jobs 2 years in to my young attendingship because my wife came down with cancer. (Five years remission last week!) If a pre-partner (I almost used the word "fella"; but that's not gender-neutral and this is 2019) makes it thru your buy-in period and you haven't fired them 6-10 months prior to the period expiring for some GOOD reason like they're an awful doc, or they have an obvious axis-2 disorder, or substance abuse issues/etc.... then THEY MAKE PARTNER. NO exceptions. MAKE these terms CLEAR upfront. Also; make EXPECTATIONS clear in terms of hourly requirements/etc. Nobody wants to miss partner because they "need to be called in" on a weekend night and they've been out with their wife celebrating a family event and you can't come in because you're a few glasses of wine deep and family time is happening.

Rule #2: Pre-partner wages can't be less than what a person would make doing a different job. Period. If you do this; then you deserve to have your contract terminated and lose your buyout in some awful fashion. And you can die in a fire for being so ignorant and greedy.

Rule #3: Books need to be transparent to the newcomers. Period. ONE set of books. You know what I'm talking about; don't pretend like you don't.


CMGs:

Rule #1: PAY THE DOCTORS FIRST. Without them, you have no company. This is evident to any sixth-grader out there. Anything left over after you've kept your promises can be div'vied up for "adminsitrative costs", which shouldn't include first-class tickets to non-clincal staff when you fly your "firefighter" docs in coach to East Yonder to keep that contract. At NO time should the doctors "take a pay cut" because of "budget considerations". The first to take a pay cut (and get canned) are the NON-clinical staff. This means you, Mr. Regional-Assistant-Vice-District-Doorknob-turner. Looks like you'll have to work a bit harder to keep your job, rather than sip on drinks and work 9a-4p with a two hour lunch.

Rule #2: The same model that applies to clinical staff should apply to administrative staff. You want to run a "lean model?" Great! Same goes for the paper-pushers. All non-clinical staff shall be required to submit a budget request justifying their salary and all expenses for that year. If you fail to meet those expectations and justify your utility on paper; then... you're fired.

Rule #3: No DINOs: (Doctors In Name Only). If you're an MD/DO and an admin/exec - then you pull 4 shifts a month (one per week) in the freaking pit to remember what its like down here. This is especially reasonable when the CMG and admin jackholes demand doctor participation on various committees and adminstrative duties. Okay; you want me to play your game-? Then come play ours. This means you, Mr. Regional-Assistant-Vice-District-Doorknob-turner.


I could go on; but the collective brain here is better than mine right now (I'm DOMA'ed).

 

[devlyyn]

Its not the "total comp" that's stupid. Its believing that this is the value of these "shares" that is stupid.

Mergers, upheaveals, and unicorn farts be damned - I'm not going to buy a coin worth 75K if the only person who tells me its worth 75K is the guy selling it. Especially when the guys earning the money are paid CA nursing wages when the CEO buys a motor home just for his college football tailgate parties.

If MotorHomeDickHead goes to prison for whatever and the whole house of cards goes up in flames.... I'm sure that he has a golden parachute, but those shares that you bought are worth dust.

I had a phone interview with the USASSKISS folks last year. It was really insulting. I posted a thread about it.

This is one vulpine opinion, but that what this forum is for:

SDGs:

Rule #1: Don't be a d!ck. A reasonable buy-in period is 2 years. Maaaaybe 3. Life is what happens when you were busy making other plans. I changed jobs 2 years in to my young attendingship because my wife came down with cancer. (Five years remission last week!) If a pre-partner (I almost used the word "fella"; but that's not gender-neutral and this is 2019) makes it thru your buy-in period and you haven't fired them 6-10 months prior to the period expiring for some GOOD reason like they're an awful doc, etc.... then THEY MAKE PARTNER. NO exceptions.

Rule #2: Pre-partner wages can't be less than what a person would make doing a different job. Period. If you do this; then you deserve to have your contract terminated and lose your buyout in some awful fashion. And you can die in a fire.

Rule #3: Books need to be transparent to the newcomers. Period. ONE set of books. You know what I'm talking about; don't pretend like you don't.


CMGs:

Rule #1: Knock it off. PAY THE DOCTORS FIRST. Without them, you have no company. This is evident to any sixth-grader out there. Anything left over after you've kept your promises can be div'vied up for "adminsitrative costs", which shouldn't include first-class tickets to wherever when you fly your "firefighter" docs in coach to East Yonder to keep that contract. At NO time should the doctors "take a pay cut" because of "budget considerations". The first to take a pay cut (and get canned) are the NON-clinical staff. This means you, Mr. Regional-Assistant-Vice-District-Doorknob-turner.

Rule #2: The same model that applies to clinical staff should apply to administrative staff. You want to run a "lean model?" Great! Same goes for the paper-pushers. All non-clinical staff shall be required to submit a budget request justifying their salary and all expenses for that year. If you fail to meet those expectations and justify your utility on paper; then... you're fired.

Rule #3: No DINOs: (Doctors In Name Only). If you're an MD/DO and an admin/exec - then you pull 4 shifts a month (one per week) in the freaking pit to remember what its like down here. This is especially reasonable when the CMG and admin jackholes demand doctor participation on various committees and adminstrative duties. Okay; you want me to play your game-? Then come play ours. This means you, Mr. Regional-Assistant-Vice-District-Doorknob-turner.


I could go on; but the collective brain here is better than mine right now (I'm DOMA'ed).

I hear you, and agree with most of what you're saying. Personally, I think the valuation will likely be more than the tax burden, but will sell ASAP as I'm not into speculative investments. I was just hoping to clarify some of the statements made prior in the thread.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

It doesn't actually give you any stake/ownership in the company. It's phantom stock. Phantom stock programs are often put together by companies to a) give employees a sense of ownership while also trying to b) provide a financial disincentive to leave the company.

I'm not trying to make an argument for CMG vs others, just clarifying. The valuation is done just how any non-publically traded company is done. How do you think they value shares for any other company that's not publically traded? Because of all the mergers and recent upheavals in the whole EM market, it can be tricky. I don't think that is set in stone yet. From what I understand, at set intervals you have the chance to sell your shares or you can sell when you leave. This isn't some weird scam, I think this is common practice for privately trade companies. And again, they're offering "$75k worth" of shares, if you think its stupid then don't accept it. Subtract or add to your total comp if you want.

 

[devlyyn]

I guess it depends on what you classify as stake and ownership. The company gets valued and then share prices are calculated based on the valuation. Shares may or may not get any voting rights, but it still counts as ownership as they are factored in when valuing the company and would get disbursements based on the future sale of the company and/or dividend payments.

 

[Groove]

I guess it depends on what you classify as stake and ownership. The company gets valued and then share prices are calculated based on the valuation. Shares may or may not get any voting rights, but it still counts as ownership as they are factored in when valuing the company and would get disbursements based on the future sale of the company and/or dividend payments.

You don't get it. You can't do anything with that "stock". It's only worth something because the company tells you it is. But it's worthless. You can't trade or sell it on the open market and you can only sell it back to the company. You have no insurance or safeguards meaning if the company goes belly up or files for bankruptcy, your money is gone. What tangible equity do you truly own? Do you have any say so in business operations? Of course not. It's a tool for psychological indentured servitude and a way for the company to raise cash from their own employees.

I can cut up my dog leash into 4 pieces and hire someone to "valuate" them at 25K a piece. However, they are only worth 25K to the people dumb enough to pay me for it with the promise that I will buy back my dog leash from them for 25K in the future assuming I haven't sold the company to someone else, filed for bankruptcy or changed the policy. Presto, I've just raised 100K capital for business operations under the guise of my "dog leash true ownership equity program".

 

[TooMuchResearch]

It isn't ownership.

Phantom Stock Plan: What It Is, How It Works, 2 Types

A phantom stock plan is an employee benefit plan that gives select employees many benefits of stock ownership without giving them any company stock.

www.investopedia.com

You can own shares of a private company. You don't own anything with a phantom stock program / USACS.

I guess it depends on what you classify as stake and ownership. The company gets valued and then share prices are calculated based on the valuation. Shares may or may not get any voting rights, but it still counts as ownership as they are factored in when valuing the company and would get disbursements based on the future sale of the company and/or dividend payments.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

This person has already drank the USUCK koolaid. It's too late for him.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I'm responding largely for the benefit of those that have not yet been fooled.

This person has already drank the USUCK koolaid. It's too late for him.

 

[emergentmd]

This Thread makes me pissed and cracking up at the same time.

Pissed that any company would be so blatant about screwing people
Cracking up at all of the BIG RED flags on this stock program and realizing that smart people (well, book smart) are actually buying into it.

I ALWAYS tell people that if someone is too complicated to understand, then there is a reason they made it that way which is to screw you.

1. Healthcare insurance. Copay, coinsurance, deductible, in network, out of network, uncovered charges. I work with billing often and this stuff still doesn't make sense. Great Job by insurance companies to maximize profit.

2. Whole life/Varible life insurance - Cash value, investment, investment variability, flexible premium, flexible death benefit. Great job by the insurance companies to make money off High priced life insurance masking it as an investment

3. USCAS Ownership/Neighbors Ownership stock option - Ownership without any ownership, distribution without any financial details, taxes, no stock value, vesting, vesting years,. Great Job paying docs less and keeping them on a leash.

Neighbors Screwed docs so badly and some I know well. Disguise ownership. Take money upfront. Don't open your books. Pay the real owners $$$$ while you work your A$$ off. Go bankrupt or sell off = you get nothing.

If I want to work for a CMG and own the Company why not make it simple? I would just go work for TH or Emcare (when they were pubilic), buy their stock on the open market. I get the stocks 1 sec after purchase. I have something tangible that I know what the exact value is. I can see their books. I can sell without quitting. I can sell after quitting. I don't have to pay some complicated tax.

Why do something so complicated when you can do the same in much simpler terms?

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

The best way to work for a CMG (if you're going to work for one) is as an IC where you get x money for y hours worked. Very simple and straightforward. Then you can dump 55k of that money into a one-participant 401k and control exactly what you're investing in. You also have way more control over your schedule.

This is assuming you have a spouse that can provide health insurance.

 

[emergentmd]

I am 20 yrs in my career and hopefully winding down in 5 yrs. Maybe work 4-5 dys a month after I turn 50, and watch the grass Grow.

But if I was a new grad now, I would choose in this order assuming its personally possible.

1. Locums
2. CMG IC
3. SDG with partnership tractk but pay needs to be similar to the local CMG without any sweat equity. Buy in is fine if reasonable and has to be at time or partnership. Don't take a $50-100/hr paycut with the possibility of partnership.
4. CMG full time employment with a 1 yr contract at the most. Shoot for 3 months. Don't take any Bonus, up front money; its just another way to keep you working.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

I am 20 yrs in my career and hopefully winding down in 5 yrs. Maybe work 4-5 dys a month after I turn 50, and watch the grass Grow.

But if I was a new grad now, I would choose in this order assuming its personally possible.

1. Locums
2. CMG IC
3. SDG with partnership tractk but pay needs to be similar to the local CMG without any sweat equity. Buy in is fine if reasonable and has to be at time or partnership. Don't take a $50-100/hr paycut with the possibility of partnership.
4. CMG full time employment with a 1 yr contract at the most. Shoot for 3 months. Don't take any Bonus, up front money; its just another way to keep you working.

The problem with locums is that if you're young (especially with a family) you might not have a predictable income stream. In addition, the rates I've seen for the past year have been pretty poor (nothing above 300/hr). Maybe y'all have different sources than I do.

I would put a secure hospital employed position pretty far up there too. After I'm done with CMG I have such a position lined up that is super high volume and acuity but is staffed to the max with attendings and has a team of high quality residents.

 

[devlyyn]

When arguments go around in circles, I think its best to just agree to disagree on some points 🙂. For me, if the upfront W2 compensation/benefits makes sense compared to market rates I'm good with that. Anything on top of that (bonuses, phantom stock, etc) is just potential gravy on top--even if it never materializes. I wouldn't stay in a job paying below market rates strictly because I was counting on some stock program or potential future benefit, although that can be a potential effect for some people. And I agree, from an apples-apples job comparison, and from a general compensation perspective, for most people 1099 comp is best.

 

[emergentmd]

The problem with locums is that if you're young (especially with a family) you might not have a predictable income stream. In addition, the rates I've seen for the past year have been pretty poor (nothing above 300/hr). Maybe y'all have different sources than I do.

I would put a secure hospital employed position pretty far up there too. After I'm done with CMG I have such a position lined up that is super high volume and acuity but is staffed to the max with attendings and has a team of high quality residents.

I did qualify with "personally possible".

 

[Emdocinabox]

I’m a little confused...I thought locums companies are subsidized by the hospital so they are more likely to skim off the top than CMG’s who (unless it’s a crappy payout mix), are not subsidized? Meaning a hospital may pay $300/hr to locums co who in turn pays $250/hr to the doc while also pocketing the billing vs CMG (or SDG) who has to rely on billing alone to pay the doc...was I completely misunderstanding this setup?

 

[GeneralVeers]

I’m a little confused...I thought locums companies are subsidized by the hospital so they are more likely to skim off the top than CMG’s who (unless it’s a crappy payout mix), are not subsidized? Meaning a hospital may pay $300/hr to locums co who in turn pays $250/hr to the doc while also pocketing the billing vs CMG (or SDG) who has to rely on billing alone to pay the doc...was I completely misunderstanding this setup?

You have it slightly backwards. CMGs, SDGs, and hospitals all use locums in the same way. They locums company is merely a headhunter and charges a $/hr fee to hire and schedule a doctor. CMGs keep all of the billing regardless of whether or not they use a locums.

 

[emergentmd]

Just had lunch with an old friend/fellow resident that I haven't seen since residency 20 years ago. Great to discuss residency, finances, etc.

When we both graduated, we both had no clue what the market was like or what a good contract was. Internet was in its infancy and there were not reliable information/SDN.

He chose to stay in residency city and became partner with a SDG that was well known. Level 1, big hospital, hard job. He made $150/hr. I chose to move 3 hrs away back home and worked at community SDG and 1st year made $225/hr + full benefits + 50K Sep funding on a 2 yr partnership track. All new grads/partners did the same amount of holidays/nights/weekends. 95% of the new hires became partner.

Just to show you there is alot of luck in life and I just happened to join a unicorn group that cared more about the docs than making a million/yr for the partners.

 

[Torsion]

Just had lunch with an old friend/fellow resident that I haven't seen since residency 20 years ago. Great to discuss residency, finances, etc.

When we both graduated, we both had no clue what the market was like or what a good contract was. Internet was in its infancy and there were not reliable information/SDN.

He chose to stay in residency city and became partner with a SDG that was well known. Level 1, big hospital, hard job. He made $150/hr. I chose to move 3 hrs away back home and worked at community SDG and 1st year made $225/hr + full benefits + 50K Sep funding on a 2 yr partnership track. All new grads/partners did the same amount of holidays/nights/weekends. 95% of the new hires became partner.

Just to show you there is alot of luck in life and I just happened to join a unicorn group that cared more about the docs than making a million/yr for the partners.

So did your co-resident make $150/hr or did he make $1 million a year? You mention he was a partner in this SDG.

 

[namethatsmell]

Just had lunch with an old friend/fellow resident that I haven't seen since residency 20 years ago. Great to discuss residency, finances, etc.

When we both graduated, we both had no clue what the market was like or what a good contract was. Internet was in its infancy and there were not reliable information/SDN.

He chose to stay in residency city and became partner with a SDG that was well known. Level 1, big hospital, hard job. He made $150/hr. I chose to move 3 hrs away back home and worked at community SDG and 1st year made $225/hr + full benefits + 50K Sep funding on a 2 yr partnership track. All new grads/partners did the same amount of holidays/nights/weekends. 95% of the new hires became partner.

Just to show you there is alot of luck in life and I just happened to join a unicorn group that cared more about the docs than making a million/yr for the partners.

In general, I like a lot of your posts.

With this one, I can't tell if I'm missing something or if it's just a bit tone deaf in the setting of newgrads, saddled with huge debt, sweating bullets as they desperately try to get a job anywhere in the country that will have them.

 

[emergentmd]

In general, I like a lot of your posts.

With this one, I can't tell if I'm missing something or if it's just a bit tone deaf in the setting of newgrads, saddled with huge debt, sweating bullets as they desperately try to get a job anywhere in the country that will have them.

Not trying to be tone deaf. I know it sucks right now.

My point in this thread related to USACS if CMGs, psuedoCMGs, SDGs all can be predatory and docs need to ask questions/network/read the contract before signing. If its too good to be true or contract too confusing, then its a big red flag.

 

[emergentmd]

So did your co-resident make $150/hr or did he make $1 million a year? You mention he was a partner in this SD

Maybe he never made partner b/c he was at 150/hr for many years before leaving. He was told the payer mix was bad so that is what they could pay but i highly doubt that.