USMLE score averages for med schools...

[Hopkins2010]

One of the med schools I'm looking at stated that their average board scores are 20 points above the national average.

How many standard deviations is that (i.e. 1/2, 1/3, etc)?

How does that compare to "top 10" schools?

Just out of curiosity, which school has the best average board scores and what is it?

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[dnt107]

1 SD = 20 pts usually

I've always wanted to know if there was any place to find average board scores for schools, so if anyone has any info, please post.

 

[mrp]

It was my understanding that the USMLE people stopped making this public as it overemphasized the rankings nature of the test. They also stopped making it easy to tell exactly what percentile your score is relative to everyone else.

At its heart, the USMLE is NOT designed to rank people. It is designed to demonstrate that you, as a potential physician, have learned a sufficient amount of the core material. It's really a p/f test. USMLE has apparently been trying to encourage residency programs to not use the scores as a way of ranking candidates.

-mrp

 

[edmadison]

Unfortunately, it is being used widely in competitive residency programs as a tool to rank applicants.

Another thing, it is most likely not the schools teaching, but rather the type of applicants that they admit that determines their average usmle scores.

Ed

 

[jargon124]

I interviewed at Pitt a few days ago and their admissions dean said that their scores are consistently "one standard deviation above the mean"...I don't know exacly what that means...However, I do think that USMLE scores should have a place in residency placement. The precise nature and extent of that place is what I don't know about - however if it becomes a pure pass/fail test it would be unfortunate since we really do need something objective to separate candidates when we're talking about competitive residency positions...

 

[lilycat]

I don't know how "objective" USMLE scores really are anymore. I've heard of two schools this year that are hiring outside help to come in and prep their students, including subsidizing Kaplan tuition for their students to use the course for prep. Also, it seems like a lot of schools teach specifically to the USMLE.

 

[Fah-Q]

lilycat, I would check that information again. What you wrote about schools "hiring outside help to come in and prep their students" is not quite correct.

 

[dwstranger]

Lilycat is right -- at least as far as UAG goes. Not sure if US schools do the same thing, but subsidizing Kaplan tuition is exactly what happens here at UAG... We get the Deluxe Prep -- cost to the person on the street is (was) $6500. <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> We had to pay $1500. Kaplan instructors coming to one's school to offer the course certainly counts as "hiring outside help" in my book...

 

[dingiswayo]

•••quote:••• One of the med schools I'm looking at stated that their average board scores are 20 points above the national average.
••••The skeptic in me doubts this is true at any school in the nation. There are too many bright students at every medical school across the country for one class at a certain medical school to be THAT much better.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

I think it is possible for a school to have average board scores 20 points above the mean. The mean for the USMLE takes into account foreign medical graduates, who do much worse than US grads on average. I believe the passing rate for first time Step I takers is over 90% for US medical students, but around 40% for foreign grads. Obviously, much of this has to do with language and being able to read and comprehend the passages quickly.

 

[SocialistMD]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Fah-Q:
•lilycat, I would check that information again. What you wrote about schools "hiring outside help to come in and prep their students" is not quite correct.•••••Actually, I know of several schools doing it, mine being one of them.

 

[mpp]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Whisker Barrell Cortex:
•I think it is possible for a school to have average board scores 20 points above the mean. The mean for the USMLE takes into account foreign medical graduates, who do much worse than US grads on average. I believe the passing rate for first time Step I takers is over 90% for US medical students, but around 40% for foreign grads. Obviously, much of this has to do with language and being able to read and comprehend the passages quickly.•••••<a href="http://www.usmle.org/news/medlic.htm" target="_blank">FMG pass rates</a> are around 55 percent -- about 65 percent for first-time takers. The U.S. graduate pass rate is about 91 percent total (around 94 percent if you include only first-time allopathic students).

 

[lilycat]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Fah-Q:
•lilycat, I would check that information again. What you wrote about schools "hiring outside help to come in and prep their students" is not quite correct.•••••
I'm not sure what you think I need to check or what seems "incorrect" especially since I didn't mention specific schools. I heard about the Kaplan program directly from a student at a school that was doing it (in the U.S.), and about a similar program at another school from an interviewee.

I don't have a problem with programs like that -- I think it's great that the schools want to help their students, even if the ulterior motive is to boost their own USMLE averages. My only point is that average USMLE scores are not necessarily that informative about a school and the strength of it's academic programs.

 

[ckent]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by dwstranger:
•Lilycat is right -- at least as far as UAG goes. Not sure if US schools do the same thing, but subsidizing Kaplan tuition is exactly what happens here at UAG... We get the Deluxe Prep -- cost to the person on the street is (was) $6500. <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> We had to pay $1500. Kaplan instructors coming to one's school to offer the course certainly counts as "hiring outside help" in my book...•••••Hmm, not sure exactly what the "deluxe prep" was, but I can tell you that the most expensive USMLE prgram that Kaplan offers according to my brochure is the IntensePrep, and that's only $1000, or $850 if you were to order early enough and be at a host schoool. I would question whether or not your program actually costs $6500 on the street, I can't see anyone paying $6500 for a prep program, that's like a semester of med school over here. I just wanted to say that $1500 might not be as great of a "bargain" as you think that it is, especially when you think that your tuition is supposed to pay the school to teach you enough to do well on the USMLE already. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

 

[Fah-Q]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by SocialistMD:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Fah-Q:
•lilycat, I would check that information again. What you wrote about schools "hiring outside help to come in and prep their students" is not quite correct.•••••Actually, I know of several schools doing it, mine being one of them.•••••Nope. Check again. Nobody is being hired. Discounts might be offered if so many students sign-up, resources might be given to students(review books, software, on-line question banks), or classes might be held at the school, but nobody is being hired. There is a BIG difference between a school "hiring outside help" and the above mentioned situations.

Just another observation....if a school "taught to the boards," why would that school need to "hire outside help?" It seems to me that the school most likely to "hire outside help" would be the school that instructed in a manner that would not be specifically "to the boards."

 

[lilycat]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Fah-Q:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by SocialistMD:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Fah-Q:
•lilycat, I would check that information again. What you wrote about schools "hiring outside help to come in and prep their students" is not quite correct.•••••Actually, I know of several schools doing it, mine being one of them.•••••Nope. Check again. Nobody is being hired. Discounts might be offered if so many students sign-up, resources might be given to students(review books, software, on-line question banks), or classes might be held at the school, but nobody is being hired. There is a BIG difference between a school "hiring outside help" and the above mentioned situations.

Just another observation....if a school "taught to the boards," why would that school need to "hire outside help?" It seems to me that the school most likely to "hire outside help" would be the school that instructed in a manner that would not be specifically "to the boards."•••••Um, I would check again if I were you -- I'm pretty certain my information is correct. Some schools actually do have people on staff whose main job is to help students prep for boards.

If you read my original post, I didn't say that schools teach to the boards AND pay for outside prep instruction -- usually they do one or the other.

 

[SocialistMD]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Fah-Q:
•Nope. Check again. Nobody is being hired. Discounts might be offered if so many students sign-up, resources might be given to students(review books, software, on-line question banks), or classes might be held at the school, but nobody is being hired. There is a BIG difference between a school "hiring outside help" and the above mentioned situations.
•••••Allow me to rephrase. Our school is paying for each and every one of our second year students to attend a nationally-known prep course held on our school's ground. I use "our" because I believe I think you go to school here, too, and you know exactly what we are doing.

Also, I know of another school that hires a "board specialist" to come in for the last two weeks of May to give a 9-5 board prep course.

 

[dwstranger]

CKENT--

Well, we were sure that our school must just want more money out of us... So I checked online -- last year when we were about to start Kaplan -- ( sorry, the link was too long for all of it to become "hot" <a href="http://www.kaptest.com/repository/templates/ArticleInitDroplet.jhtml?_relPath=/repository/content/Medical_Licensing/Step_1/Courses_and_Services/Options_for_Doctors/ME_step1_deluxe" target="_blank">http://www.kaptest.com/repository/templates/ArticleInitDroplet.jhtml?_relPath=/repository/content/Medical_Licensing/Step_1/Courses_and_Services/Options_for_Doctors/ME_step1_deluxe</a> prep.html ) and their Deluxe Prep, which you can find if you look there, includes live instructors, video library, access to the Kaplan Centers for 3 months, etc. We got the "for Doctors" course, not the "for med students" one -- have no idea why... After checking just now, I see that they only charge (only?) $3700, not $6700, which is the combined Step 1&2 Deluxe Prep. So that $1500 WAS a bah-gain.

As for a school teaching you the material you need to know for the Boards (as opposed to teaching FOR the Boards) -- I think you're right -- but some of us need help mastering (?!) the test taking part of it (strategies, format, etc.).

 

[rajneel1]

jargon124
Member # 9466 posted February 04, 2002 10:15 AM
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However, I do think that USMLE scores should have a place in residency placement. The precise nature and extent of that place is what I don't know about - however if it becomes a pure pass/fail test it would be unfortunate since we really do need something objective to separate candidates when we're talking about competitive residency positions...

Well, I disagree. maybe something like committment to the field should be included along with test scores. that can be shown through shadowing doctors in that field, volunteering in that field, research in that field, etc. i don't think test scores alone should determine "competitive residency positions". if STEP 1 was P/F, then it wouldn't be "unfortunate" to me.

 

[Fah-Q]

SocialistMD:
You have been misinformed. The second years are getting free access to Q-Bank. There are no classes being offered for free or being held at school. Check your information again.

 

[jargon124]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by rajneel1:
•jargon124
Member # 9466 posted February 04, 2002 10:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, I do think that USMLE scores should have a place in residency placement. The precise nature and extent of that place is what I don't know about - however if it becomes a pure pass/fail test it would be unfortunate since we really do need something objective to separate candidates when we're talking about competitive residency positions...

Well, I disagree. maybe something like committment to the field should be included along with test scores. that can be shown through shadowing doctors in that field, volunteering in that field, research in that field, etc. i don't think test scores alone should determine "competitive residency positions". if STEP 1 was P/F, then it wouldn't be "unfortunate" to me.•••••Geez, I knew it would be misconstrued. I did not say that think test scores alone should determine competitive residency positions - those are your words...What I'm saying is, like MCATs, boards have a necessary role to play in residency placement processes - especially when we are talking about positions that lots of applicants are fighting for. If I was a Program Director, I would sure as hell look at USMLE as one of several important factors in assessing candidates.

 

[Orthodog]

jargon124,

You're totally correct. The major specialties do use your USMLE scores. However, these scores aren't used in raking an applicant usually. The scores are merely a weed-out mechanism. Programs usually have a cut-off number. Everyone below that cut-off score gets an immeadiate reject.This allows porgrams to cut their applicant pool by almost half. Next, third year grades, letters of rec, dean's letter comments, and research decides on which applicants will receive interviews. The interview is a major player on ranking. The program assess whether you'll be a good fit into their program. Specialties usually take a very low number of applicants. so personality plays a big role during the interview process. And remember, there's a;ways the "WHO YOU KNOW" factor.

In Short, USMLE scores, esp. STEP 1, plays a critical role in receiving consideration from specilaty programs. Traditionally, low scores equal low number of interviews. However, there are exceptions to every rule. The lower the USMLE score, is an indication to applying to a high number of programs. Although, there are always exceptions to every rule.

GOD Bless.

Orthodog.

 

[tmesis]

jargon124,

Are you sure that the Dean at Pitt said that its students score 1 full SD above the mean? When I interviewed at Pitt (where I currently attend), I was told that the average step 1 scores were about 1/2 SD (~10 pts?) above the mean. A minor point, really, but 1SD seems a bit high. Also, I've heard that the current third years were fairly disappointing in comparison to other classes. Whatever the case, I'm very satisfied with the school.
PS. I've heard that Stanford, NYU, and Columbia are among schools with very high step 1 scores. I imagine that schools like Michigan (they have weekly quizzes!) and UCSD also have high scores.

 

[TheThroat]

You want to do well on the USMLE? Go to Baylor College of Medicine. This was my schedule:
One and half years of basic science courses. At the end of that period, I was not forced to take the USMLE. Instead, I started my clinical rotations. After a year of clinics, I took 10 weeks off to study for the Step I. I did well. Then, I cleaned up one more required clerkships (Family practice), did some elective and research rotations, and then started my fourth year.

I believe that Baylor students have the opportunity to pound the Step I because they are allowed to take the test during any time of their 3rd year. After a medicine, surgery, and peds rotation, many of the questions are pretty easy.

 

[jargon124]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by tmesis:
•jargon124,

Are you sure that the Dean at Pitt said that its students score 1 full SD above the mean? When I interviewed at Pitt (where I currently attend), I was told that the average step 1 scores were about 1/2 SD (~10 pts?) above the mean. A minor point, really, but 1SD seems a bit high. Also, I've heard that the current third years were fairly disappointing in comparison to other classes. Whatever the case, I'm very satisfied with the school.
PS. I've heard that Stanford, NYU, and Columbia are among schools with very high step 1 scores. I imagine that schools like Michigan (they have weekly quizzes!) and UCSD also have high scores.•••••Hi - Well the dean-person at Pitt said something to the effect of "our students do well on the boards, and achieve scores consistently about one standard deviation above the mean". So I guess he qualified it with "about", meaning that it could probably be anywhere from .5 all the way up to one full St.Dev above the mean. I agree that 1 sounds high.