USMLE step 1 pass rate?? What??

[UBCvan]

ok guys I've seen everyone talk about USMLE step 1 pass rate and then about getting high scores on USMLE. so I'm a bit confused.

is just passing the USMLE guarantee a spot in a residency of choice? not only we must pass, we have to get a high score to get the residency of choice? can you clarify?

also what is the pass score? ans what is considered good, great and perfect?
can one get to, lets say, FP by just passing step 1?

Thanks

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[kdburton]

ok guys I've seen everyone talk about USMLE step 1 pass rate and then about getting high scores on USMLE. so I'm a bit confused.

is just passing the USMLE guarantee a spot in a residency of choice? not only we must pass, we have to get a high score to get the residency of choice? can you clarify?

also what is the pass score? ans what is considered good, great and perfect?
can one get to, lets say, FP by just passing step 1?

Thanks

Here are the stats:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

 

[mordounhas]

I'd definitely take the time to look over the data for any fields you may be considering (some of which is linked above). Charting outcomes in the match is another good one.

Short answer: you're not getting into a lot of specialties if you just pass. As a US medical student you should get into a a residency, but you're probably not going to be a neurosurgeon if you get a 192. There are exceptions, of course, to this and people with less than desirable board scores sometimes do get into competitive fields, but the odds aren't nearly as good.

 

[turkeyjerky]

first of all, you're not guaranteed the residence of your choice no matter what you do. Passing the usmle doesn't guarantee you any residency at all, much less one in your favored specialty.

The only people who talk about usmle pass rates on school administrators who, for some reason, think a 98% pass rate or whatever is good and advertise it to applicants like that means something. It doesn't--in fact, I would argue that anything less than a 100% pass rate is unacceptable. There is no reason that a student who has passed the first two years of med school should not be able to pass step1.

In regards to your last question, 220 is about average; I think most people would agree that 230 is good and above 240 is great.

 

[Perrotfish]

ok guys I've seen everyone talk about USMLE step 1 pass rate and then about getting high scores on USMLE. so I'm a bit confused.

is just passing the USMLE guarantee a spot in a residency of choice? not only we must pass, we have to get a high score to get the residency of choice? can you clarify?

also what is the pass score? ans what is considered good, great and perfect?
can one get to, lets say, FP by just passing step 1?

Thanks

A passing score is a 188. The average score people get to get into various residencies is listed on SDN. If you go to a US school (not the Caribbean) then passing step 1 (even with multiple attempts) and graduating from medical school is generally enough for an FM or psych residency even if the rest of your academics are equally borderline, and you can land many midrange residencies like EM with a low score if the rest of your application is good. Some specialties are more competitive than others, and require you to have higher grades and step one scores to start their residencies. Keep in mind that there are stil various qualities of FM residencies, so even if you want FM you should shoot to get better than a 188 so that you're not limited in your choice of program. What is 'good, great, and perfect' depends on the crowd you talk to. For a derm resident (or SDN poster) a 250 is barely adequate, but compared to an average US medical school class a 250 is spectacular.

first of all, you're not guaranteed the residence of your choice no matter what you do. Passing the usmle doesn't guarantee you any residency at all, much less one in your favored specialty.

It might not have the force or a written contract, but lets be honest: a passing score on the USMLE from a US school means that you will likely get some kind of residency.

 

[Domenech]

Those NRMP statistics look quite grim for IMGs.

 

[UBCvan]

thanks guys for great replies...

 

[BlueRaider22]

Do you have to report your USMLE score on ERAS if you take it? I know some DO students who implied that you have an option to report it since you are not required to take it as a DO. I'm having a hard time believing this to be true. Does anyone have any idea?

 

[UBCvan]

Here are the stats:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

thanks for the link

the link only shows match rate and everything and doesnt have anything on USMLE scores.

do you guys know anything similar to the link but focused on USMLE scores of US applicants, Osteo, US IMG, non-US IMG ...

or maybe a combination of USMLE score and match list together?

 

[kdburton]

thanks for the link

the link only shows match rate and everything and doesnt have anything on USMLE scores.

do you guys know anything similar to the link but focused on USMLE scores of US applicants, Osteo, US IMG, non-US IMG ...

or maybe a combination of USMLE score and match list together?

Yes sorry I mis-spoke in my last post. I meant to put up the Charting Outcomes link that someone else mentioned. Here it is:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

That should answer your questions about strictly numbers type stuff for each specialty

 

[dlr]

Those NRMP statistics look quite grim for IMGs.

IMGs are doubly discriminated against - first when they take USMLEs, with the exams being way more difficult than for american grads, and then again when they apply for residency, a process during which they are generally expected to have 2-digit score above 80 to qualify for s h i t t y specialties like IM. Grads of foreign medical schools also take the USMLE Step 1 and must do exceedingly well to obtain a residency in the US. Foreign doctors who are admitted into the U.S. for residency training are usually limited to specialties that are leftover after U.S. medical students have chosen first, even if they have higher scores than the latter.

 

[dlr]

Those NRMP statistics look quite grim for IMGs.

Less than 50% of the blacks pass the Part I of the USMLE on the first try nationwide on the average. Some blacks never pass and cannot become practicing MDs, even if they had graduated from Harvard, and the other blacks who pass score below Asians/whites by over one standard deviation below the mean scores of Whites/Asians. It is not rocket science to say that if 10% of the test takers were black, and only 50% passed, then the blacks are 25% of the all the failures, if only 5% of all test takers failed.

The passing of the USMLE means that one is qualified, but being qualified does not mean being the most qualified, when one passes with the highest score. There is also a direct straight line correlation between one's MCAT scores used for admissions to med school versus one's USMLE scores. Blacks test over one standard deviation below the mean of most standardized testing, including the USMLE, SAT I, MCAT, GRE, GMAT, and LSAT. Blacks *DO NOT TEST WELL* compared to Whites/Asians. Blacks are admitted to medical schools with this Black-White Test Score Gap for many decades, including the ones graduating from the Ivies.

 

[bbydoc]

IMGs are doubly discriminated against - first when they take USMLEs, with the exams being way more difficult than for american grads, and then again when they apply for residency, a process during which they are generally expected to have 2-digit score above 80 to qualify for s h i t t y specialties like IM. Grads of foreign medical schools also take the USMLE Step 1 and must do exceedingly well to obtain a residency in the US. Foreign doctors who are admitted into the U.S. for residency training are usually limited to specialties that are leftover after U.S. medical students have chosen first, even if they have higher scores than the latter.

I think its a fair process, there are enough average grads from the us, so why should PDs go for average IMGs?
You cant justify taking a job away from an american grad and giving it to the IMG because the IMG has done better on the USMLE, as the average american grad graduates with at least $ 150.000 of debt.
this is why most IMGs with non-stellar grades end up in the left-over programs.

PS: I will be an IMG myself.

 

[2012mdc]

Less than 50% of the blacks pass the Part I of the USMLE on the first try nationwide on the average. Some blacks never pass and cannot become practicing MDs, even if they had graduated from Harvard, and the other blacks who pass score below Asians/whites by over one standard deviation below the mean scores of Whites/Asians. It is not rocket science to say that if 10% of the test takers were black, and only 50% passed, then the blacks are 25% of the all the failures, if only 5% of all test takers failed.

The passing of the USMLE means that one is qualified, but being qualified does not mean being the most qualified, when one passes with the highest score. There is also a direct straight line correlation between one's MCAT scores used for admissions to med school versus one's USMLE scores. Blacks test over one standard deviation below the mean of most standardized testing, including the USMLE, SAT I, MCAT, GRE, GMAT, and LSAT. Blacks *DO NOT TEST WELL* compared to Whites/Asians. Blacks are admitted to medical schools with this Black-White Test Score Gap for many decades, including the ones graduating from the Ivies.

I didn't want to take the bait but I just couldn't resist.

First of all where are you getting your numbers? I have not seen any numbers related to race for Step 1.

Most schools require you to pass Step 1 before you go to 3rd year and pass Step 2 before you graduate so I'm not sure where you're getting the situation of someone graduating from Harvard without passing Step 1.

Your hypothetical definitely isn't rocket science b/c it doesn't make sense. Run the numbers. If there were 100 test takers and 10 were black. If only half passed then 5 out of 100 total would have failed and blacks would have comprised the entire 5%

The MCAT has a correlation to Step 1 but it definitely is not a direct line correlation. Performance in the 1st two years and the shelf exams are much more predictive.

I know it's anecdotal evidence but my school has a large # of African Americans and close to 100% passed with a good number over 240

I hope you are just a troll who isn't even in a medical field because medicine doesn't need people with attitudes like yours.

 

[BigRedder]

Wow, it's been a while since my jaw actually dropped at a post on SDN.

 

[C5toC9]

obvious troll is obvious

 

[2012mdc]

obvious troll is obvious

Thing is there are people with great educational background who still believe nonsense like that, that student at Harvard Law School comes to mind

 

[sswang00]

IMGs are doubly discriminated against - first when they take USMLEs, with the exams being way more difficult than for american grads, and then again when they apply for residency, a process during which they are generally expected to have 2-digit score above 80 to qualify for s h i t t y specialties like IM. Grads of foreign medical schools also take the USMLE Step 1 and must do exceedingly well to obtain a residency in the US. Foreign doctors who are admitted into the U.S. for residency training are usually limited to specialties that are leftover after U.S. medical students have chosen first, even if they have higher scores than the latter.

I'm pretty sure everybody gets questions from the same bank...

 

[SGuttenberg]

1. 207 and being a US graduate means there is plenty still available for you to do so long as you pad your application and you apply broadly. If you are an IMG, yes you will have a harder time.

2. Step 1 doesn't discrimnate against IMGs. The fact is they do worse on step 1.

3. Residencies do discriminate against IMGs when they have comparable step 1 scores to US graduates. Residencies prefer: US high-end school MD > US low-end school MD > FMG > American IMG. I know DOs are worse off than US MDs, but I don't know if they have a better shot than FMGs.

4. People of African decent who do go to medical school are every bit as qualified as their counterparts or else schools wouldn't accept them. I seriously doubt any med school would try to fill a quota if it meant hurting their pass rates.

 

[aa62]

1. IMG's do worse
2. Most doctors in america are black
3. where have you been

most doctors in the US are not black. Blackes account for 3% of the total US physician population.

 

[sexyman]

just wanted to put my 2 cents in for the MCAT related aspect of this idiotic thread-

i got a 22 on mcat and a 244 on step 1...

 

[kmed0]

I think its a fair process, there are enough average grads from the us, so why should PDs go for average IMGs?
You cant justify taking a job away from an american grad and giving it to the IMG because the IMG has done better on the USMLE, as the average american grad graduates with at least $ 150.000 of debt.

I am a US citizen studying abroad and I would have absolutely no problem taking a job away from a graduate of a US school (no matter how much debt they have!) - if I have better marks and if I am better qualified. It is up to each of us to get the marks, USMLE scores, and clinical/research experience to make us competitive applicants.

 

[sexyman]

^ the off shore schools arent cheap anyway are they?

 

[analysand]

I'm pretty sure everybody gets questions from the same bank...

Same bank, more difficult items delivered to the IMG, though. There are not exactly "forms" of exams, just randomly picked items sent to each test-taker. Here it is an interesting thread analyzing the whole thing

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=211583

 

[desijigga]

^ the off shore schools arent cheap anyway are they?

Yea but most of them got rich mommy's and daddy's to pay for them. While us US grads have 200,000 debt to pay back... If only I had gone to school back in the 90s when average med tuition was 10K a year. My cousin graduated in 2001 with total debt of 70K

Just wondering do carib students, and IMGs get any type of government loans for school, or is it all private loans, and out of pocket?

 

[DrBowtie]

Same bank, more difficult items delivered to the IMG, though. There are not exactly "forms" of exams, just randomly picked items sent to each test-taker. Here it is an interesting thread analyzing the whole thing

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=211583

Take off your foil hat. IMGs don't get "more difficult questions".

 

[aa62]

Yea but most of them got rich mommy's and daddy's to pay for them. While us US grads have 200,000 debt to pay back...

whats with this thread and generalizations? so every Carib student has a silver spoon in hand, while every US grad came from the hood, pulled themselves from the mean streets and had to work 2+ jobs to pay for undergrad and medical school?

Just wondering do carib students, and IMGs get any type of government loans for school, or is it all private loans, and out of pocket?

I'm a Canadian IMG. Half came from student loans and lines of credit, the other half out of pocket (i.e.: loan sharks and black market organ deals).

I'll be graduating with $280K debt.

 

[V i g i lance]

Actually it's hilarious that NBME expects people to believe in the legitamacy of their USMLE Steps scoring process with the 3+ weeks time period that the candidate has to wait to get his or her score. For obvious reasons, you can not but expect this kangaroo organization to manipulate everyone's score the way it wants to.

By means of experimental questions they do it, of course. It is only in their discretion to decide which questions will be called experimental and consequently not scored. They do not release the entire pool of items, with the experimental items marked (like the case is with other tests, like LSAT, for instance). It's a joke that America expects me to believe it's giving me a fair test and that the result score it assigns me is a true representation of my knowledge and abilities.

Get real babe!

 

[DrBowtie]

Actually it's hilarious that NBME expects people to believe in the legitamacy of their USMLE Steps scoring process with the 3+ weeks time period that the candidate has to wait to get his or her score. For obvious reasons, you can not but expect this kangaroo organization to manipulate everyone's score the way it wants to.

By means of experimental questions they do it, of course. It is only in their discretion to decide which questions will be called experimental and consequently not scored. They do not release the entire pool of items, with the experimental items marked (like the case is with other tests, like LSAT, for instance). It's a joke that America expects me to believe it's giving me a fair test and that the result score it assigns me is a true representation of my knowledge and abilities.

Get real babe!

I should buy stock in Aluminum refiners.

Experiemental Qs can't be chosen after the fact since they don't have a historical data set to compare with yet. The whole point in making it experimental is to generate exam item discrimination figures.

 

[bnp]

After the fact. However, Vigilance, they have to discriminate against IMGs a little bit since they've usually taken the clinical courses as well and are at an advantage compared to 2-year American medical students. IMGs are better prepared for the battle by having reviewed clinical findings. Now it would stand to reason that the really really clinical question in STEP 1 is going to be thrown out.

 

[t o k e n]

Have you seriously given thought that NBME and ECFMG fails way too many IMGs because they want the latter to pay again the $740 registration fee? I mean, it makes sense from the financial standpoint of these "not-for-profit" organizations...

 

[t o k e n]

.

 

[t o k e n]

.

 

[plyrshvmrfn]

Hear, hear - someone's seeing Emperor's new clothes.

Think for Yourself, Question Authority. Proceed with caution, as proper use of the brain is not endorsed by federal governments nor huge corporations involved in serious financial profit from a brainwashed and enslaved population. Mild discomfort may occur, as confusing independent thought challenges popular views of the world.

That's what it looks like it is, isn't it? Someone's an allergy to authority and/or uniforms, regardless of cut, color or cloth. Asking tough questions, such as why and why not, reducing their chances of succeeding hierarchically.

 

[DrBowtie]

Hmm...3 new accounts all commenting. Dare I say multiple accounts?

 

[sexyman]

yea kind of obvious ^

and can you imagine making a new account just to post this???

Hear, hear - someone's seeing Emperor's new clothes.

Think for Yourself, Question Authority. Proceed with caution, as proper use of the brain is not endorsed by federal governments nor huge corporations involved in serious financial profit from a brainwashed and enslaved population. Mild discomfort may occur, as confusing independent thought challenges popular views of the world.

That's what it looks like it is, isn't it? Someone's an allergy to authority and/or uniforms, regardless of cut, color or cloth. Asking tough questions, such as why and why not, reducing their chances of succeeding hierarchically.

lol

 

[bbydoc]

I am a US citizen studying abroad and I would have absolutely no problem taking a job away from a graduate of a US school (no matter how much debt they have!) - if I have better marks and if I am better qualified. It is up to each of us to get the marks, USMLE scores, and clinical/research experience to make us competitive applicants.

Oh Im sure you wouldnt have a problem with that.
the thing is this though...you dont get to make that decision.
If you read my post, Im talking about PDs.

 

[p l a n]

USMLE Step 1 questions are quantum physics. The deeper you dig ... you find out that the question is the answer and the answer is the question... Not to go all Socrates but if one must know why, it is implied you must understand there is a what.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

4. People of African decent who do go to medical school are every bit as qualified as their counterparts or else schools wouldn't accept them. I seriously doubt any med school would try to fill a quota if it meant hurting their pass rates.

African American students have a much harder time in medical school than white students:

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf

 

[kryptik]

just wanted to put my 2 cents in for the MCAT related aspect of this idiotic thread-

i got a 22 on mcat and a 244 on step 1...

+ 1, when you go through previous threads you will see a lot of folks with very high MCAT scores with below average step scores.

i posted this on another thread but i will repeat, the steps is a knowledge based, the more you study the higher your scores, there is little abstract thinking on it

 

[NoWayOut]

IMGs are doubly discriminated against - first when they take USMLEs, with the exams being way more difficult than for american grads, and then again when they apply for residency, a process during which they are generally expected to have 2-digit score above 80 to qualify for s h i t t y specialties like IM. Grads of foreign medical schools also take the USMLE Step 1 and must do exceedingly well to obtain a residency in the US. Foreign doctors who are admitted into the U.S. for residency training are usually limited to specialties that are leftover after U.S. medical students have chosen first, even if they have higher scores than the latter.

Can someone explain to me why IM is considered "****ty"? I wanna know, for real.

 

[Juden]

By means of experimental questions they do it, of course. It is only in their discretion to decide which questions will be called experimental and consequently not scored.

There likely are no 'experimental' questions on the USMLE, because once they went computerized, they had all the questions they would need.

UW Qbank average scores are 50-60% the first time people take it, 60-70% second time. To pass you need to get right just 47% of the questions (no experimentals). Now, they say getting 60-70% right means you pass the USMLE. What they don't really say is if that's after removing and thrown away questions. NBME says 10-20% (I believe its on the website) are thrown out. Remove 10-20% of the questions from the block, the ones that you likely got wrong, that's to say these 10-20% do not count towards the 60-70% you need to get right. You can get wrong 145 questions and PASS. A teacher told me it wears down to roughly 45% right to pass. THAT IS A LOT OF QUESTIONS YOU CAN GET WRONG. They are there to trip you up when they say you have to get right 60-70% of the questions.


So do not bother with NBME Forms to predict what your score on the real thing would be: NBME Forms' items are very easy and nothing the real thing, you can get 75% correct on NBME Forms with 5-10 minutes to spare at the end of each section, but barely finish up the sections on the real thing getting some 50% right and 50% wrong. UW is king!

 

[jerryjr36]

There likely are no 'experimental' questions on the USMLE, because once they went computerized, they had all the questions they would need.

UW Qbank average scores are 50-60% the first time people take it, 60-70% second time. To pass you need to get right just 47% of the questions (no experimentals). Now, they say getting 60-70% right means you pass the USMLE. What they don't really say is if that's after removing and thrown away questions. NBME says 10-20% (I believe its on the website) are thrown out. Remove 10-20% of the questions from the block, the ones that you likely got wrong, that's to say these 10-20% do not count towards the 60-70% you need to get right. You can get wrong 145 questions and PASS. A teacher told me it wears down to roughly 45% right to pass. THAT IS A LOT OF QUESTIONS YOU CAN GET WRONG. They are there to trip you up when they say you have to get right 60-70% of the questions.


So do not bother with NBME Forms to predict what your score on the real thing would be: NBME Forms' items are very easy and nothing the real thing, you can get 75% correct on NBME Forms with 5-10 minutes to spare at the end of each section, but barely finish up the sections on the real thing getting some 50% right and 50% wrong. UW is king!

 

[2012mdc]

So do not bother with NBME Forms to predict what your score on the real thing would be: NBME Forms' items are very easy and nothing the real thing, you can get 75% correct on NBME Forms with 5-10 minutes to spare at the end of each section, but barely finish up the sections on the real thing getting some 50% right and 50% wrong. UW is king!

I have to strongly disagree. The most recent NBME's represent the difficulty of probably 80% of the real thing. My score was within 4 points of NBME 7.

UW is king in terms of a learning tool but UW can overpredict b/c its grading curve is much more lenient

 

[kryptik]

I have to strongly disagree. The most recent NBME's represent the difficulty of probably 80% of the real thing. My score was within 4 points of NBME 7.

UW is king in terms of a learning tool but UW can overpredict b/c its grading curve is much more lenient

i totally agree, nothing can replicate the exam 100% but nbme 6 and 7 are pretty close. All the practice tests have 200questions while the real thing has 322questions, its that extra 122question that makes the real thing unique

 

[turkeyjerky]

i totally agree, nothing can replicate the exam 100% but nbme 6 and 7 are pretty close. All the practice tests have 200questions while the real thing has 322questions, its that extra 122question that makes the real thing unique

No, the real thing is unique b/c the questions and longer and harder than the NBMEs; the material has a different focus (more molecular **** that people don't know that well, as well as more stuff not in FA); and most of all, b/c it's real, ie you see that clock ticking down and actually care/start to panic;

 

[kryptik]

No, the real thing is unique b/c the questions and longer and harder than the NBMEs; the material has a different focus (more molecular **** that people don't know that well, as well as more stuff not in FA); and most of all, b/c it's real, ie you see that clock ticking down and actually care/start to panic;

very true. i guess i meant to say that those extra questions make it possible for them to ask more questions we are not used like u said. the nbme 6 and 7 are still pretty accurate in predicting though.

 

[2012mdc]

No, the real thing is unique b/c the questions and longer and harder than the NBMEs; the material has a different focus (more molecular **** that people don't know that well, as well as more stuff not in FA); and most of all, b/c it's real, ie you see that clock ticking down and actually care/start to panic;

Everyone's situation is different and everyone gets different test forms. That's why the test can be an unfair/inaccurate judge of how much one knows especially when you get into the 250+ range.

The test can go 3 ways
1) your weaknesses are a lot more emphasized than your strengths - leads to under-performance
2) strengths and weaknesses about equal - expected performance
3) your lucky day and strengths over-emphasized - ecstatic and unbelievably surprising performanced

My exam for the most part had questions similar to the NBME's. The large majority of the questions had short or medium stems. I did not get a lot of molecular stuff at all and had maybe 2 or 3 questions that were completely new to me and fell outside the wonderful triad of FA, RR, and UW.

I believe timing is something that comes with practice with a natural element as well.

People who are good test takers tend to panic less and use time wisely -
1) an easy question should be done quickly but not in a hurry - if it seems too easy a quick doublecheck of a stem that doesn't take much time and then move on
2) hard and ridiculous questions should be skipped the 1st time thru and come back to after you do all the questions you "should" know
3) medium questions and questions that are easy but take time to figure out - these are where more of your time should go

I'm willing to bet people who did 3,000+ questions and multiple assessments had less timing issues than others. I finished every block with at least a few mins to spare, most 5+. I'm not a notoriously fast test taker as I usually finished class exams in the middle of the pack but I trained my mind for the test - most of the questions are pretty predictable after time

Step 1 is a beatable test and much more reasonable than the MCAT granted you don't get an unfairly difficult test that also happens to emphasize your weaknesses.

Many people who were considered poor test takers because of a MCAT in the 20's happen to score 240+

 

[Saipan]

4. People of African decent who do go to medical school are every bit as qualified as their counterparts or else schools wouldn't accept them. I seriously doubt any med school would try to fill a quota if it meant hurting their pass rates.

Is this true? Even for schools with race-based admission policies? If so, then why do schools continue to use race-based admission polices. As the courts force schools to abandon these policies they are now shifting to "pipeline" programs and other efforts to acheive politically correct proportions in the ethnic diversity of their student bodies.

It is clear that at many schools that race plays a role in admissions and that worries over hurting pass rates are a lesser consideration.

Oh....and don't feed the troll!!!

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Is this true? Even for schools with race-based admission policies? If so, then why do schools continue to use race-based admission polices. As the courts force schools to abandon these policies they are now shifting to "pipeline" programs and other efforts to acheive politically correct proportions in the ethnic diversity of their student bodies.

It is clear that at many schools that race plays a role in admissions and that worries over hurting pass rates are a lesser consideration.

Oh....and don't feed the troll!!!

No, SGuttenberg is wrong; it isn't true. Please see my post above. Although things may have improved more recently, URM's are far less likely to finish medical school in 4 years than non-URM students.

African American students have a much harder time in medical school than white students:

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf