USMLE vs. COMLEX

[OSUdoc08]

I took the USMLE today and the COMLEX a week ago.

I hereby proclaim that the USMLE is easier than the COMLEX.

Discuss.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Pox in a box]

I took the USMLE today and the COMLEX a week ago.

I hereby proclaim that the USMLE is easier than the COMLEX.

Discuss.

That's the most ignorant statement you've ever made. Think about why.

 

[DHMO]

I took the USMLE today and the COMLEX a week ago.

I hereby proclaim that the USMLE is easier than the COMLEX.

Discuss.

These tests are both standardized, which means that the 'difficulty' of each test is based on the population that takes it, not the material covered by the test. Without trying to start a flame war, I would argue that the average allopathic student scores higher on standardized tests than the average osteopathic student. I would bet the weaker osteopathic students do not elect to take the USMLE, and even with this selection bias, the passage rate is still higher for MD students than DO students on the USMLE. So, I would think that the USMLE is harder to pass/get a great score on the the COMLEX, however I do not have any numbers to back up these statements, only logic. Maybe the COMLEX has only a 50% pass rate while the USMLE is ~90%.

 

[Idiopathic]

I will actually agree with the assertion. I think the COMLEX is VERY poorly written and very ambiguous. Answer choices are often times so close and the question stems can leave you wanting for info that it makes even a first-order question ridiculously difficult.

The USMLE on the other hand employs more third-order questions, but usually gives you lots of information in a concise, clear format.

The COMLEX should be easier, but I dont think it is. And I dont think that the difficulty of the test or the quality of education really factors into why DO's, on average, do worse on the USMLE than MD's, for those of you who will use that as an indication of test difficulty. I would love to see some MD students take the non-OMT portion of the COMLEX and give their 'WTF'-responses just like we do every June.

 

[Idiopathic]

These tests are both standardized, which means that the 'difficulty' of each test is based on the population that takes it, not the material covered by the test. Without trying to start a flame war, I would argue that the average allopathic student scores higher on standardized tests than the average osteopathic student. I would bet the weaker osteopathic students do not elect to take the USMLE, and even with this selection bias, the passage rate is still higher for MD students than DO students on the USMLE. So, I would think that the USMLE is harder to pass/get a great score on the the COMLEX, however I do not have any numbers to back up these statements, only logic. Maybe the COMLEX has only a 50% pass rate while the USMLE is ~90%.

Your logic is very flawed.

The inherent difficulty of the test has absolutely nothing to do with testing population. The relative score you get does, but not the difficulty of answering the questions. Also, the material is the same, but picture the most poorly worded questions and terribly obtuse reasoning employed by the NBOME authors and you will start to understand what a large percentage of this test is: a guessing game.

I cant explain why DO students typically underperform MD students on the USMLE, except to say that it is diffuclt preparing for two separate board exams (especially one of which is more intensive in microbiology and pharmacology and the other with different characteristics). Or perhaps the teachers teach to the test in both circumstances and the COMLEX question format (which is slightly different) is used more in osteopathic school and vice versa. I dont know, but I do know that I felt lost and bewildered when I left the COMLEX and I felt level-headed and secure when I left the USMLE.

 

[SolisR]

I'm with OSUdoc08 and Idiopathic. The COMLEX sucked in comparison to the USMLE. It actually made me angry.

Ric

 

[bob sacamano]

Your logic is very flawed.

The inherent difficulty of the test has absolutely nothing to do with testing population. The relative score you get does, but not the difficulty of answering the questions. Also, the material is the same, but picture the most poorly worded questions and terribly obtuse reasoning employed by the NBOME authors and you will start to understand what a large percentage of this test is: a guessing game.

I cant explain why DO students typically underperform MD students on the USMLE, except to say that it is diffuclt preparing for two separate board exams (especially one of which is more intensive in microbiology and pharmacology and the other with different characteristics). Or perhaps the teachers teach to the test in both circumstances and the COMLEX question format (which is slightly different) is used more in osteopathic school and vice versa. I dont know, but I do know that I felt lost and bewildered when I left the COMLEX and I felt level-headed and secure when I left the USMLE.

you are interpreting the question as "which test has more difficult/ambiguous questions?" and DHMO is interpreting it as "which test is more difficult to score well on?" i think you're both making correct statements regarding your respective interpretations.

 

[OSUdoc08]

That's the most ignorant statement you've ever made. Think about why.

Thanks for making a helpful post on my thread!

 

[bigfrank]

I took the USMLE today and the COMLEX a week ago.

I hereby proclaim that the USMLE is easier than the COMLEX.

Discuss.

Of course you would, and Pox and I know why.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Your logic is very flawed.

The inherent difficulty of the test has absolutely nothing to do with testing population. The relative score you get does, but not the difficulty of answering the questions. Also, the material is the same, but picture the most poorly worded questions and terribly obtuse reasoning employed by the NBOME authors and you will start to understand what a large percentage of this test is: a guessing game.

I cant explain why DO students typically underperform MD students on the USMLE, except to say that it is diffuclt preparing for two separate board exams (especially one of which is more intensive in microbiology and pharmacology and the other with different characteristics). Or perhaps the teachers teach to the test in both circumstances and the COMLEX question format (which is slightly different) is used more in osteopathic school and vice versa. I dont know, but I do know that I felt lost and bewildered when I left the COMLEX and I felt level-headed and secure when I left the USMLE.

That's exactly how I felt...

 

[Pox in a box]

Of course you would, and Pox and I know why.

 

[Hernandez]

I thought USMLE was harder, but then again, I got hammered with molecular genetics and very nit picky questions about receptors on USMLE that I had not spent that much time studying and really don't even ever remember seeing, COMLEX left me thinking wtf, but I knew I passed it when I walked out, USMLE, not so much.

But it's really not fair to compare them, the questions on USMLE are so much better written than COMLEX and doesn't leave you trying to guess what the authors are asking rather than connecting 3rd level information that I think it's a faulty comparison.

 

[deleted9493]

I think I felt confident of about the same percentage of questions on each block of both tests. The speed at which I arrived at my conclusions to those 'confident' questions on comlex, however, was considerably greater. I think this is probably why I perceived the comlex to be an easier test.

Though it would take me longer to do a block on USMLE, when I did the tally of questions I felt good about, it turned out to be very much similar to what I was finding on my version of comlex.

I don't think that there's a definitive answer to be found here as we all come from different backgrounds in terms of training and all had different approaches to each test.

 

[Pox in a box]

If the COMLEX is so bad, why do you take it? Isn't USMLE preferred hands down?

 

[stochastic]

DO students are required to take the comlex step 1 to progress to third year

 

[Idiopathic]

you are interpreting the question as "which test has more difficult/ambiguous questions?" and DHMO is interpreting it as "which test is more difficult to score well on?" i think you're both making correct statements regarding your respective interpretations.

Yes, and the poster remarked how he 'just took both tests', so how would he have any clue which was easier to score well on? He was obviously referring to perceived difficulty of the test. I think MD students just naturally assume that their test is harder, but in reality, it is much better written and much less ambigous. I did very well on both so you can trust me (actually slightly better statistically on COMLEX) and my assessment. The material doesnt change from the NBME to the NBOME, but the testing style is radically different.

 

[threepeas]

i believe First Aide states first time allopaths pass USMLE @ 93% rate, and DO's pass @ 74%.

What is the first time passrate for the COMPLEX?

i have always believed the main difference between DO students and allopaths is that allopaths do better on standardized tests and that's pretty much it. both are equally capable of becoming excellent clinical physicians. what do you guys think?

 

[homeboy]

I'm with OSUdoc08 and Idiopathic. The COMLEX sucked in comparison to the USMLE. It actually made me angry.

Ric

Haven't taken the USMLE yet, but everyone who's taken it says the questions are more intense but written much better.
The COMLEX was ******ed--poorly written questions and very vague, and VERY bad pictures.

But it's inaccurate to say the COMLEX is 'harder' because the questions are not written as well...if it is harder, it's harder for the wrong reasons (ie. quality of questions).

What are peoples' thoughts on just getting rid of the COMLEX, having everyone take the USMLE, and DO students can take an OMM/Musculoskeletal exam...(though I'm sure this notion has been talked to death).

Everything that's on the USMLE that's not on the COMLEX we still LEARNED in school...genetics, biochem, biostats...we just didn't get tested on it.

 

[Idiopathic]

i believe First Aide states first time allopaths pass USMLE @ 93% rate, and DO's pass @ 74%.

What is the first time passrate for the COMPLEX?

i have always believed the main difference between DO students and allopaths is that allopaths do better on standardized tests and that's pretty much it. both are equally capable of becoming excellent clinical physicians. what do you guys think?

The first time pass rate for COMLEX is usually between 89-94%.

To say that allopathic students do better on standardized tests is based on the fact that osteopathic matriculants typically score lower om the MCAT than allopathic matriculants. We all know what MCAT score correlates to in the real world...in reality, the people that put forth the effort and study their balls off typically do well on boards, regardless of their letters.

 

[OSUdoc08]

If the COMLEX is so bad, why do you take it? Isn't USMLE preferred hands down?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Yes, and the poster remarked how he 'just took both tests', so how would he have any clue which was easier to score well on? He was obviously referring to perceived difficulty of the test. I think MD students just naturally assume that their test is harder, but in reality, it is much better written and much less ambigous. I did very well on both so you can trust me (actually slightly better statistically on COMLEX) and my assessment. The material doesnt change from the NBME to the NBOME, but the testing style is radically different.

 

[Pox in a box]

Isn't it? Remind me to ask the PDs if they would have rather me taken COMLEX in addition.

 

[Idiopathic]

Isn't it? Remind me to ask the PDs if they would have rather me taken COMLEX in addition.

Theyd probably just rather you didnt apply.

 

[Pox in a box]

Theyd probably just rather you didnt apply.

That wasn't a punch below the belt to DOs. I'm just stating facts. The only residency programs that care about COMLEX are osteopath programs.

 

[OSUdoc08]

That wasn't a punch below the belt to DOs. I'm just stating facts. The only residency programs that care about COMLEX are osteopath programs.

As always, thanks for the helpful contributions!

Please----tell us more.....

 

[friedcfood]

I just took the USMLE today and it was plenty hard. I also took the COMLEX and it is also hard. Comparing the COMLEX with the USMLE is like comparing apples and oranges...these are two different exams.

USMLE--> basic science...however, i thought some of the q's weren't so basic.

COMLEX--> more clinical IMO.

reason why some residency directors like to see your STEP 2 scores--> more clinically oriented.

Both exams were difficult...but i would have to say USMLE is still more difficult to due the fact that some questions are just out of nowhere.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I just took the USMLE today and it was plenty hard. I also took the COMLEX and it is also hard. Comparing the COMLEX with the USMLE is like comparing apples and oranges...these are two different exams.

USMLE--> basic science...however, i thought some of the q's weren't so basic.

COMLEX--> more clinical IMO.

reason why some residency directors like to see your STEP 2 scores--> more clinically oriented.

Both exams were difficult...but i would have to say USMLE is still more difficult to due the fact that some questions are just out of nowhere.

That described the COMLEX for me.....

 

[Idiopathic]

That wasn't a punch below the belt to DOs. I'm just stating facts. The only residency programs that care about COMLEX are osteopath programs.

Dude, seriously. What could you possibly know about what residency programs want? Especially about a segment of the population that you know nothing about? You just assume that PD's dont care about the COMLEX, but you have absolutely no evidence (and dont give me that 'one time i talked to a guy who's best friends sisters brother was an assistant to the PD at Western Ohio family practice residency for the blind, and he said...')

And what are these facts you speak of? You have no facts. You have absolutely zero first hand knowledge of any of this.

 

[Pox in a box]

Dude, seriously. What could you possibly know about what residency programs want? Especially about a segment of the population that you know nothing about? You just assume that PD's dont care about the COMLEX, but you have absolutely no evidence (and dont give me that 'one time i talked to a guy who's best friends sisters brother was an assistant to the PD at Western Ohio family practice residency for the blind, and he said...')

And what are these facts you speak of? You have no facts. You have absolutely zero first hand knowledge of any of this.

Oh please. Tell me that when program directors are looking at applications that they don't put more stock in USMLE scores over COMLEX. If you go into an interview, do you think they give a rats about your COMLEX if you took both? If you just took COMLEX, then of course they'd care. What are you getting so offended over?

 

[Idiopathic]

You just make blanket statements about things you know nothing about (not a select club either) and pass them off as fact. You dont know the firist thing about: a) what PD's look for, b) what they actually prefer, c) the relative difficulty of sitting for USMLE vs. COMLEX, d) what its like to apply for residency, e) whats important as a DO when you apply for residency, f) what it takes to actually get a residency, e) or even what its like to finish medical school.

Until you know even one of these things, please quit representing your asinine assumptions and conjecture as 'fact'.

 

[VincentAdultman]

You just make blanket statements about things you know nothing about (not a select club either) and pass them off as fact. You dont know the firist thing about: a) what PD's look for, b) what they actually prefer, c) the relative difficulty of sitting for USMLE vs. COMLEX, d) what its like to apply for residency, e) whats important as a DO when you apply for residency, f) what it takes to actually get a residency, e) or even what its like to finish medical school.

Until you know even one of these things, please quit representing your asinine assumptions and conjecture as 'fact'.

pwn@ge!

 

[Pox in a box]

You just make blanket statements about things you know nothing about (not a select club either) and pass them off as fact. You dont know the firist thing about: a) what PD's look for, b) what they actually prefer, c) the relative difficulty of sitting for USMLE vs. COMLEX, d) what its like to apply for residency, e) whats important as a DO when you apply for residency, f) what it takes to actually get a residency, e) or even what its like to finish medical school.

Until you know even one of these things, please quit representing your asinine assumptions and conjecture as 'fact'.

Gee, is your period about to start? I don't think I said anything false.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Gee, is your period about to start? I don't think I said anything false.

This may have been your most useful post ever.

 

[DrMom]

Please quit with the personal attacks.

 

[Pox in a box]

Head-to-head, COMLEX does not mean as much as USMLE in competitive traditionally allopathic residency programs. That's all I'm saying Idio. Sorry to ruin your week. I'm not making any other judgments.

 

[DMBmatty08]

That wasn't a punch below the belt to DOs. I'm just stating facts. The only residency programs that care about COMLEX are osteopath programs.------Head-to-head, COMLEX does not mean as much as USMLE in competitive traditionally allopathic residency programs. That's all I'm saying Idio. Sorry to ruin your week. I'm not making any other judgments.

If this is the case, then why do i have an inbox full of emails from allopathic residency programs telling me that they accept COMLEX scores in place of USMLE scores?

 

[HoodyHoo]

That wasn't a punch below the belt to DOs. I'm just stating facts. The only residency programs that care about COMLEX are osteopath programs.

That's why the five programs I just contacted, regarding Internal Medicine and Psychiatry told me they had no preferance If I had a COMLEX or USMLE score. And those programs are Mayo, Oregon, Wash U in st. louis, Rush, and Hennepin.

My bro is a chief resident at Wash U, as a DO, and is on staff for hiring incoming residents. He has also stated that they don't look much at the difference between COMLEX vs. USMLE. Unless you're doing ortho or something like that, it doesn't matter.

So if Wash U and Mayo(rochester) are weak programs, then I guess i'm the one that's messed in the head.

Get your facts straight before posting ridiculous comments. You're going to be working with DO's everyday. Are you going to sit there and judge someone during residency when you guys are working side-by-side?? b/c they have a DO?

 

[stochastic]

Are you going to sit there and judge someone during residency when you guys are working side-by-side?? b/c they have a DO?

People like you are the ones I'm going to love to show up on a clinical level.

I think Pox has made it pretty clear that he is all for MD/DO equality. He is merely commenting on the tests. While all DO students have to take the COMLEX in order to go on to 3rd year, they are not required to USMLE. However, many do. If you ask them why they are taking it, you may get a few that say "so I can show up the nay-sayers". I don't even think Pox is one of those (Pox, correct me if I am wrong about you). The majority will say they take it to keep their options open, at least at my school. Although some of you have encountered residencies that say they make no distinction between the two, that may not be what they are really thinking in their heads.

I am a DO student and am taking the USMLE in addition to COMLEX. I too have emailed programs about their preference/requirements (radiology and neurology programs only). Radiology programs especially have emphasized that they would prefere USMLE. BUT, and here is the point Pox, NOT because they necessarily think it is a BETTER test for evaluating students(although, even without taking it, I am almost certain it is). Four programs (Mayo, UTSW, WashU/MIR, Baylor) have told me this: they prefer the USMLE because >95% of their applicants have a USMLE score and it makes for an easier and more valid comparison of applicants.

I will better able to comment on the quality of the USMLE vs COMLEX as evaluation tools after I take the USMLE, but as I said, I already think the USMLE does a better job and is likely preferred by the MOST competitive allopathic programs (i.e., neurosurgery, radiology, ortho, plastics, derm, radonc, etc.).

Maybe an appropriate poll to start would be:

If you are a DO student and are taking USMLE, why:

A. prove the "nay-sayers" wrong
B. keep options open or get a competitive residency
C. for fun
D. I like the pain of standardized tests

 

[Idiopathic]

He is merely commenting on the tests.

One of which he knows absolutely nothing about. Thats my point. No program would overlook a top notch applicant with a top COMLEX score because he/she didnt take the USMLE and no program would value a DO more because he took the USMLE. Some may like the test for comparison purposes (who wouldnt?).


Now, I took the test because I felt that having done well on two standardized exams (as opposed to one) was much better for my residency app. It showed versatility and adaptability. I also have encouraged DO students not to take USMLE if they didnt think they could do very well on it (i.e. not beating the mean not very helpful). Just opinion, again, but at least I have some evidence.

 

[bigfrank]

Please quit with the personal attacks.

This is one thread you probably should have closed.

Gee, I wonder why you did not.



P.S. I would be more than honored to have Idiopathic put me to sleep sometime, should the need ever arise.

 

[bigfrank]

I also have encouraged DO students not to take USMLE if they didnt think they could do very well on it (i.e. not beating the mean not very helpful). Just opinion, again, but at least I have some evidence.

Hey Idio,

If an osteopathic student takes the USMLE and doesn't do as well as they had hoped, do they have to report it to allopathic residencies through ERAS? Just a thought, I really don't know either way.

 

[stochastic]

Hey Idio,

If an osteopathic student takes the USMLE and doesn't do as well as they had hoped, do they have to report it to allopathic residencies through ERAS? Just a thought, I really don't know either way.

I am not sure, but have also wondered this.

Flipping things around, I wonder if an osteopathic student that takes the USMLE even has to show their COMLEX to ERAS. It seems like you shouldn't need to show allopathic programs. But I do agree with idiopathic that doing well on two standardized tests would be great. It certainly wouldn't lessen your application status.

 

[Doc Oc]

Hey Idio,

If an osteopathic student takes the USMLE and doesn't do as well as they had hoped, do they have to report it to allopathic residencies through ERAS? Just a thought, I really don't know either way.

Do they /have/ to? No.

Should they /have/ to? Another story, do a search if you're that interested.

 

[DrMom]

This is one thread you probably should have closed.

Gee, I wonder why you did not.



P.S. I would be more than honored to have Idiopathic put me to sleep sometime, should the need ever arise.

A simple reminder seemed much more appropriate than closing it out of the blue.

 

[Pox in a box]

If this is the case, then why do i have an inbox full of emails from allopathic residency programs telling me that they accept COMLEX scores in place of USMLE scores?

I said HEAD-TO-HEAD. Think about it. Don't get offended by this. It's not worth it. Look at the title of this thread.

 

[Pox in a box]

One of which he knows absolutely nothing about. Thats my point. No program would overlook a top notch applicant with a top COMLEX score because he/she didnt take the USMLE and no program would value a DO more because he took the USMLE.

You're using the outliers. I'm talking generally. Of course they wouldn't dismiss a stellar COMLEX, just the same as a school that generally had ACT scores from its in-state applicants would look very highly on a 1600 SAT score.

Now, I took the test because I felt that having done well on two standardized exams (as opposed to one) was much better for my residency app. It showed versatility and adaptability. I also have encouraged DO students not to take USMLE if they didnt think they could do very well on it (i.e. not beating the mean not very helpful). Just opinion, again, but at least I have some evidence.

Some might argue that this proves my point.

 

[Pox in a box]

This is one thread you probably should have closed.

Gee, I wonder why you did not.

The 25,000 dollar question. Thanks for keeping it open, Dr. Mom!

 

[bigfrank]

Do they /have/ to? No.

Should they /have/ to? Another story, do a search if you're that interested.

Guess I wasn't. But thanks for the //lucid// post.

 

[DMBmatty08]

I said HEAD-TO-HEAD. Think about it. Don't get offended by this. It's not worth it. Look at the title of this thread.

I'm not offended in any way by anything that you have said, I just think that you are having a diffucult time dealing with the fact that you are WRONG!!!!! You have no idea which test RD's prefer and there are a few of us on here that have evidence to discredit your statement that "Head-to-Head" RD's of competitive residencies prefer USMLE to COMLEX. You might as well start getting used to the fact that you don't know everything now.

 

[Osteodog]

I'm not offended in any way by anything that you have said, I just think that you are having a diffucult time dealing with the fact that you are WRONG!!!!! You have no idea which test RD's prefer and there are a few of us on here that have evidence to discredit your statement that "Head-to-Head" RD's of competitive residencies prefer USMLE to COMLEX. You might as well start getting used to the fact that you don't know everything now.

Here's my take on it.

I thought that the USMLE was more difficult simply because there were FAR more 2nd/3rd and 4th order questions. Not only that, but there were more questions which required memorization of formulae (biostats, physio). And, maybe it's just me, but I'm not a big fan of interpreting graphs and charts when my brain is rapidly evaporating.

I don't know how much time they spend with genetics and molecular bio in allopathic school, but I can say that at Western, we had 1 horrible week of genetics that taught us absolutely nothing. When I tried to study that part of the USMLE, a lot of it was new material. Plus, we had no formal lectures on any of the behavioral science stuff that showed up on the test (that I can remember), but I'm thinking that allopaths don't get that either.