Usmle

[BenPRunkle]

Hey everyone, I was just wondering if podiatry students can sit in on the USMLE as well as the NBPME exam. I know it has been a debated topic about whether or not DPM's should be MD's or what not, but I am not asking this in order to back door my way into a MD or match into a MD residency because I know that is impossible and I would have tried to get into an allopathic school if that was the case. However, I was just wondering if taking the USMLE and NBPME would be advantageous to pods who after residency would like more orthopedic foot and ankle training, and wanted to try to get into an AOFAS fellowship. I have heard of some instances where podiatrists have gotten into AOFAS fellowships (from sdn so I do not know how much truth there is to that statement), but it seems to be extremely rare considering that they say they require the USMLE. What do yall think?

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[347932]

...if podiatry students can sit in on the USMLE...

No.

 

[DPMer]

Hey everyone, I was just wondering if podiatry students can sit in on the USMLE as well as the NBPME exam. I know it has been a debated topic about whether or not DPM's should be MD's or what not, but I am not asking this in order to back door my way into a MD or match into a MD residency because I know that is impossible and I would have tried to get into an allopathic school if that was the case. However, I was just wondering if taking the USMLE and NBPME would be advantageous to pods who after residency would like more orthopedic foot and ankle training, and wanted to try to get into an AOFAS fellowship. I have heard of some instances where podiatrists have gotten into AOFAS fellowships (from sdn so I do not know how much truth there is to that statement), but it seems to be extremely rare considering that they say they require the USMLE. What do yall think?

Podiatry students, even if they were allowed to take the USMLE Steps 1 and 2 at Prometric Test Centers, would not pass it. We pod students never took neuroanatomy, and embryology in detail for step 1, and the core clinical rotations of psychiatry, pediatrics, surgery, and ob-gyn in any detail for step 2. Test content is too different in scope. And the USMLE step 2 in particular is much more comprehensive in material than APMLE step 2.

 

[347932]

Podiatry students, even if they were allowed to take the USMLE Steps 1 and 2 at Prometric Test Centers, would not pass it. We pod students never took neuroanatomy, and embryology in detail for step 1, and the core clinical rotations of psychiatry, pediatrics, surgery, and ob-gyn in any detail for step 2. Test content is too different in scope. And the USMLE step 2 in particular is much more comprehensive in material than APMLE step 2.

I disagree.

 

[amaprez]

I disagree.

Please elaborate?

 

[msion]

Breaking News: DPM class of 2013 earned an astounding 100% pass rate on Part I of the American Podiatric Medical Licensing Exam (APMLE), the second time in the history of the exam that a college attained this pass rate!

According to Western U official website.

 

[DPMer]

I disagree.

The FACT is that pod students in 3rd and fourth year do not take these clinical core rotations: Psychiatry, Pediatrics, OB-GYN, and Surgery which include being on-call several times per month and taking 2 hour "shelf exams" that mimic the USMLE format.

We only take Internal Medicine, and we only rotate for one month, as opposed to the 3rd year allopath and osteopath students who rotate for 3 months AND take the 2 hour "shelf exam" near the end.

These are the specific reasons why pod students, IF given the permission right now to take USMLE step 2, would MOST likely fail the written the 8 hour Prometric computer test

 

[amaprez]

The FACT is that pod students in 3rd and fourth year do not take these clinical core rotations: Psychiatry, Pediatrics, OB-GYN, and Surgery which include being on-call several times per month and taking 2 hour "shelf exams" that mimic the USMLE format.

We only take Internal Medicine, and we only rotate for one month, as opposed to the 3rd year allopath and osteopath students who rotate for 3 months AND take the 2 hour "shelf exam" near the end.

These are the specific reasons why pod students, IF given the permission right now to take USMLE step 2, would MOST likely fail the written the 8 hour Prometric computer test

I know for a fact several of the schools do have you take General Surgery. And Western recently instituted shelfs at the end of all its non-podiatry rotations (ewww).

 

[DPMer]

I know for a fact several of the schools do have you take General Surgery. And Western recently instituted shelfs at the end of all its non-podiatry rotations (ewww).

Hmmm? Really? General Surgery clerkship? For 3 months straight like the 3rd year allopath and osteopath students? What pod schools make 3rd yr pod students take General Surgery clerkship in teaching hospitals?

 

[amaprez]

Hmmm? Really? General Surgery clerkship? For 3 months straight like the 3rd year allopath and osteopath students? What pod schools make 3rd yr pod students take General Surgery clerkship in teaching hospitals?

You're absolutely correct in that they're not 3 months long like the allopathic schools, but yes some schools do require a non-podiatry surgery rotation (whether it be an elective or standard rotation). Citing from individual schools' websites:


For Azpod:

PMED 1803 Surgery
The Surgery rotation is a four week training experience on a surgical service, i.e., orthopedics, vascular, general or plastics. The overall goal of the experience is for the student to develop fundamental skills in evaluating and managing patients with non-podiatric pathologies that warrant surgical intervention. Students will utilize diagnostic and treatment modalities throughout the peri-operative period.
4 credits

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For CSPM:

DPM 796 - 3RD YEAR SURGERY ROTATION

This is a four month 3rd year student rotation held at St. Mary's Medical Center in San Francisco. During the 4 months students will function in the operating room scrubbing on podiatric, vascular and general surgery cases as well as working with residents and faculty in the management of patients on an outpatient and inpatient basis. When not in the operating room, the students will function in a private office setting learning how to properly evaluate patients preoperatively and postoperatively as well as providing regular podiatric care. The students on this rotation are under the direct supervision of surgery department faculty.

ELECTIVES – 3 months from the following (Dermatology, Vascular, Orthopedics, General Surgery, Anesthesia, Infectious disease, Pathology, Trauma, Endocrine, Neurology and PT)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Western:

3rd year rotations:

PM 7010 General Medicine/Family Medicine
PM 7020 Internal Medicine I
PM 7021 Internal Medicine II
PM 7022 Internal Medicine III
PM 7030 Surgery I
PM 7050 Surgical Elective (Sub-Specialty surgery)
PM 7060 Podiatric Medicine, Surgery & Biomechanics/Orthopedics I
PM 7070 Pediatrics
PM 7080 Podiatric Medicine, Surgery and Biomechanics/Orthopedics II
PM 7090 Podiatric Medicine, Surgery and Biomechanics/Orthopedics III
PM 8055 Essentials of Clinical Medicine V

 

[347932]

The FACT is that pod students in 3rd and fourth year do not take these clinical core rotations: Psychiatry, Pediatrics, OB-GYN, and Surgery which include being on-call several times per month and taking 2 hour "shelf exams" that mimic the USMLE format.

We only take Internal Medicine, and we only rotate for one month, as opposed to the 3rd year allopath and osteopath students who rotate for 3 months AND take the 2 hour "shelf exam" near the end.

These are the specific reasons why pod students, IF given the permission right now to take USMLE step 2, would MOST likely fail the written the 8 hour Prometric computer test

I know the facts. I STILL disagree with the statement that Pod students would likely fail the USMLE. Have you actually taken the time to look at the practice books available for the USMLE or are you just guessing?

 

[dtrack22]

Of course he/she has, we all use USMLE books to guide our own studying since the NBPME doesn't publish anything other than some practice questions for part I.

If someone knows the facts, that ~92-93% of MD students pass part I, and only ~80% of DO who take the USMLE pass (meaning the pass rate is lower even after leaving out some of the bad students who don't take it because it will most likely hurt rather than help), and that our curriculum is even less intensive and not geared toward the USMLE...I don't get how that person could think Pod students would fare well.

 

[G0dFather]

I completely agree with dtrack, we have a 4 hour straight forward 205Q 4 multiple choice ( not even 5) exam .... ?!!??... enough said. Even the dental part 1 boards are 400+ Qs (which I was shocked to hear from one of my colleagues in dental school) seems alot more intensive then our part 1. After taking our part 1 in July I was truly shocked at how simply designed the exam is and what was truly sickening was that it still troubled people and they had difficulty with such an exam. Compared to the USMLE qs, our questions are light years lagging behind unfortunately. Lets all be very frank about this, because we are not deceiving anyone but ourselves. No wonder there is no parity, the system needs to be overhauled and the curriculum revamped in a whole new direction. Otherwise we just get laughed at with all due respect.

 

[amaprez]

I completely agree with dtrack, we have a 4 hour straight forward 205Q 4 multiple choice ( not even 5) exam .... ?!!??... enough said. Even the dental part 1 boards are 400+ Qs (which I was shocked to hear from one of my colleagues in dental school) seems alot more intensive then our part 1. After taking our part 1 in July I was truly shocked at how simply designed the exam is and what was truly sickening was that it still troubled people and they had difficulty with such an exam. Compared to the USMLE qs, our questions are light years lagging behind unfortunately. Lets all be very frank about this, because we are not deceiving anyone but ourselves. No wonder there is no parity, the system needs to be overhauled and the curriculum revamped in a whole new direction. Otherwise we just get laughed at with all due respect.

did you take the new format of the apmle? I heard with the revision it got a bit harder?

 

[347932]

Of course he/she has...

Don't assume. Let DPMer speak for him/her self please.

 

[G0dFather]

did you take the new format of the apmle? I heard with the revision it got a bit harder?

new format ?????!!! im class of 2013 i just took it few months ago .. LMAO new format ... they changed the name "format" ... honestly this comment of your just pissed me off... it mirrors all the BS in the field, unfortunately

 

[darazon]

Hmmm? Really? General Surgery clerkship? For 3 months straight like the 3rd year allopath and osteopath students? What pod schools make 3rd yr pod students take General Surgery clerkship in teaching hospitals?

I don't know of any allopath/osteopath school that requires 3 months of gen surg. Most have 1 month of gen surg, another of a surgery sub-I which is usually a subspecialty . Any other surgery rotations are electives, which are at the discretion of the student. I also find most DO students stay away from surgery as much as possible.

I have already had my gen surg rotation, an ortho rotation, and I am finishing up my 2nd internal medicine rotation. These are real rotations, not just shadowing (which I've heard is what gen surg and IM is for some pod schools). I am held to the exact same expectations and perform the exact same duties as the regular med students. I'l also be doing another gen surg and ortho next year. These are all in teaching hospitals.

 

[darazon]

It's not just the content of the USMLE that would be a problem for pod students -it's the structure of the exam. There is a world of difference between questions on the USMLE and questions on the APMLE. I felt the APMLE was a joke. Poorly written first order questions that just test your ability to memorize facts and word associations. Zero clinical relevance. I would have been embarrassed if any of my DO colleagues saw the type of questions that we had on the APMLE.

From my conversations with other students at other schools, they are taught to memorize facts and word associations which help only with the APMLE. They are also tested first order questions only, similar to what the APMLE has (I've seen sample test questions from other schools).They are not taught the way that you need to be taught to take an exam like the USMLE. The USMLE has clinical vignettes with a second or third order question stem for every question. I would think It's a huge step up for most pod students.

Yes, at Western our exams mimic the USMLE style of questions. Never at Western have I taken an exam that was purely first order and with no clinical vignettes. During our 2nd year all questions are 2nd and 3rd order with a clinical vignette. I still think the USMLE would be difficult to score well on.

Would I feel comfortable taking the USMLE?? It would scare the crap out of me, but I would love the challenge. Even some of my DO friends who did well on the COMLEX did not do so hot on the USMLE. It's a beast.

If we want to make the USMLE standard for podiatry, there has to be a HUGE elevation in the quality of what is being taught AND the quality of how it is tested. That includes adding behavioral med and repro into the curriculum -not just the pharm for them.

 

[DPMer]

I don't know of any allopath/osteopath school that requires 3 months of gen surg. Most have 1 month of gen surg, another of a surgery sub-I which is usually a subspecialty . Any other surgery rotations are electives, which are at the discretion of the student. I also find most DO students stay away from surgery as much as possible.

I have already had my gen surg rotation, an ortho rotation, and I am finishing up my 2nd internal medicine rotation. These are real rotations, not just shadowing (which I've heard is what gen surg and IM is for some pod schools). I am held to the exact same expectations and perform the exact same duties as the regular med students. I'l also be doing another gen surg and ortho next year. These are all in teaching hospitals.

I meant SURGERY. It is 3 months. In the core clerkship you learn:

1) General Surgery (Gastrointenstinal and Hepato-biliary System)
2) Vascular Surgery
3) Neurosurgery
4) Trauma Surgery
5) Orthopedic Surgery
6) Cardiothoracic Surgery
7) Plastic Surgery
8) Pediatric and Neonate Surgery
9) Oncology Surgery
10) Transplant Surgery
11) Urologic Surgery
12) Obstetric/Gynecologic Surgery

 

[Podfather]

Podiatry students, even if they were allowed to take the USMLE Steps 1 and 2 at Prometric Test Centers, would not pass it. We pod students never took neuroanatomy, and embryology in detail for step 1, and the core clinical rotations of psychiatry, pediatrics, surgery, and ob-gyn in any detail for step 2. Test content is too different in scope. And the USMLE step 2 in particular is much more comprehensive in material than APMLE step 2.

It doesn't matter the MDs will not allow the DPM students the opportunity to sit for the exam. They held the DOs hostage for years until allopathic residency spots (and the Medicare funding and labor pool) went vacant and then DOs were "good enough" if they passed the USMLE (just like the foreign MD students).

Let's say for a discussion, 10-15% of DPM students passed both parts of the USMLE politically that would be a nightmare for the MDs. How could they slam our poor education they tout if people actually passed the same exams as their students (imagine if even a couple DPM students had a top score). Next after passing both parts a DPM student could argue that they should have the same opportunity as a DO student to enter the MD match and start the process of arguing for such a pathway.

Politics are politics and allopathic medicine places hurdles (such as inconsistent residencies, multiple boards) and when we jump over those a new hurdle pops up. They will allow "good enough" DPMs when they can not find enough MD, foreign MD, DO students to fill their residencies or the NPs (DNPs) scare them enough to try make us their latest friends. Just see their recent opposition to CMS permitting DPMs to be chief of staff. I am allowed to be chief of surgery but only a MD/DO, or dentist can hold the chief of staff position.

 

[amaprez]

new format ?????!!! im class of 2013 i just took it few months ago .. LMAO new format ... they changed the name "format" ... honestly this comment of your just pissed me off... it mirrors all the BS in the field, unfortunately

lol that's what I meant 🙂 Did they just change the name or did the content/delivery change as well?

 

[flyhi]

I completely agree with dtrack, we have a 4 hour straight forward 205Q 4 multiple choice ( not even 5) exam .... ?!!??... enough said. Even the dental part 1 boards are 400+ Qs (which I was shocked to hear from one of my colleagues in dental school) seems alot more intensive then our part 1. After taking our part 1 in July I was truly shocked at how simply designed the exam is and what was truly sickening was that it still troubled people and they had difficulty with such an exam. Compared to the USMLE qs, our questions are light years lagging behind unfortunately. Lets all be very frank about this, because we are not deceiving anyone but ourselves. No wonder there is no parity, the system needs to be overhauled and the curriculum revamped in a whole new direction. Otherwise we just get laughed at with all due respect.

This 👍

I don't understand all of this talk about pods taking the USMLE...or people wanting pods to, believing that somehow that is going to produce instant parity? An exam proves next to nothing at the end of the day. It's what we do in practice alongside our colleagues that will matter. The respect will come from MD/DO's knowing that while our education and training is not the exact same (nor should it be), we have gone through the same rigors (and passed) that they have.

We do not get the exact same training as MD/DO's and therefore it makes no sense to try and fit a square peg into a round hole. I agree with the above...let's focus on OUR admissions criteria, OUR curricula, OUR training, OUR board exams and OUR residencies for OUR profession. Apparently, there needs to be improvement in several areas. That is how we get parity. You don't hear of anyone knocking on dentist's and there is probably a very good reason as to why. And, they do not take the USMLE. We are/will be podiatrists and while it's good to have classes with DO's for several reasons, I personally would not want to give up any podiatry-specific courses in order to take some integrated classes that are more geared towards the DO's.

 

[347932]

Ankle Breaker,

First of all, you need to chill out.

I guess I wasn't worth your salt as I didn't use these manuals to study, and only started looking at them once I began mingling with the medical staff at the Medical School I used to be faculty in.

In my personal estimation, the USMLE wouldn't present much of a problem for the upper tier of the podiatry students out there. That's just me.

I wonder how they would fair taking our examinations? Just saying.

 

[air bud]

It's not just the content of the USMLE that would be a problem for pod students -it's the structure of the exam. There is a world of difference between questions on the USMLE and questions on the APMLE. I felt the APMLE was a joke. Poorly written first order questions that just test your ability to memorize facts and word associations. Zero clinical relevance. I would have been embarrassed if any of my DO colleagues saw the type of questions that we had on the APMLE.

From my conversations with other students at other schools, they are taught to memorize facts and word associations which help only with the APMLE. They are also tested first order questions only, similar to what the APMLE has (I've seen sample test questions from other schools).They are not taught the way that you need to be taught to take an exam like the USMLE. The USMLE has clinical vignettes with a second or third order question stem for every question. I would think It's a huge step up for most pod students.

Yes, at Western our exams mimic the USMLE style of questions. Never at Western have I taken an exam that was purely first order and with no clinical vignettes. During our 2nd year all questions are 2nd and 3rd order with a clinical vignette. I still think the USMLE would be difficult to score well on.

Would I feel comfortable taking the USMLE?? It would scare the crap out of me, but I would love the challenge. Even some of my DO friends who did well on the COMLEX did not do so hot on the USMLE. It's a beast.

If we want to make the USMLE standard for podiatry, there has to be a HUGE elevation in the quality of what is being taught AND the quality of how it is tested. That includes adding behavioral med and repro into the curriculum -not just the pharm for them.

This is 100 percent the truth, and anyone who thinks differently doesn't know what they are talking about. We just took the test. We know whats on it.

 

[347932]

Caps means yelling in internet speak Ankle Breaker. I also find your posts in this thread very aggressive in tone. Feel free to disagree. Chill, buddy. We're all friends here.

 

[dtrack22]

Don't assume. Let DPMer speak for him/her self please.

IMHO:
1) USMLE Step 1 First Aid book

But First Aid was a good study guide...

For those of you who don't understand what darazon and air bud are saying, here is an example of an APMLE question:

1. Which of the following drugs has alpha and beta receptor activity and is the drug of choice for anaphylactic shock?
(A) Epinephrine (B) Norepinephrine (C) Isoproterenol (D) Propranolol

and USMLE...

A 12 year old girl is brought to the physician because of a rash on her left buttock for the past 2 days. The rash developed after the family returned from a 2 week long early summer vacation in Maine. Vital signs normal. The patients infection is taxonmically and morphologically most similar to the infectious agent of which of the following conditions?
a) Bacilliary angiomatosis
b) Chancroid
c) Leptospirosis
d) Lymphogranuloma vereneum
e) Q fever

Night and day. One is straight forward, first order. The other you have to recognize the disease (lyme), realize what causes the disease (b. burgdorferi), remember that it is a spirochete and then answer "c" after you remember leptospirosis is also a spirochete.

 

[streetsweeper]

keepin it real. I LOVE IT!

 

[TimmyT]

[QUOTE
A 12 year old girl is brought to the physician because of a rash on her left buttock for the past 2 days. The rash developed after the family returned from a 2 week long early summer vacation in Maine. Vital signs normal. The patients infection is taxonmically and morphologically most similar to the infectious agent of which of the following conditions?
a) Bacilliary angiomatosis
b) Chancroid
c) Leptospirosis
d) Lymphogranuloma vereneum
e) Q fever


This is the exact kind of questions we have at Western. The only two classes we had that wasn't like this is MCBM and IDIT. But the rest of them are like 2nd/3rd order questions that requires critical thinking. You can't just memorize and spit back out.

 

[dtrack22]

...

 

[347932]

A 12 year old girl is brought to the physician because of a rash on her left buttock for the past 2 days. The rash developed after the family returned from a 2 week long early summer vacation in Maine. Vital signs normal. The patients infection is taxonmically and morphologically most similar to the infectious agent of which of the following conditions?
a) Bacilliary angiomatosis
b) Chancroid
c) Leptospirosis
d) Lymphogranuloma vereneum
e) Q fever

Night and day. One is straight forward, first order. The other you have to recognize the disease (lyme), realize what causes the disease (b. burgdorferi), remember that it is a spirochete and then answer "c" after you remember leptospirosis is also a spirochete.

Sorry but you will have to start learning to think like this. It behooves all of you to realize that if you can't do this, you will not be amongst the best and brightest.

You should have been able to extrapolate what the answer was with a little thought. Wait until you are in residency and are on some of your medicine rotations.

You did have a Micro course in 1st or 2nd year no?

One thing is that, on one hand, all I keep reading about is how everyone wants parity. Why shouldn't you be able to answer that question? You are given the tools are you not?

Oh BTW, if you think this format is challenging, wait until you see what your Surgery Boards are like. Get used to it.

 

[MossPoh]

That USMLE question example is a slam dunk. I can't say anything about your exam, but for most medical students, passing the USMLE isn't hard. It is your performance relative to your peers that makes it tough. I could have passed the exam without covering a huge amount of material.

If you guys were given a copy of first aid and USMLE world questions, I think the majority of you would pass. It'd be lower than our pass rates, but still 60-70+%. Now, the score range may be a different story.

 

[347932]

That USMLE question example is a slam dunk. I can't say anything about your exam, but for most medical students, passing the USMLE isn't hard. It is your performance relative to your peers that makes it tough. I could have passed the exam without covering a huge amount of material.

If you guys were given a copy of first aid and USMLE world questions, I think the majority of you would pass. It'd be lower than our pass rates, but still 60-70+%. Now, the score range may be a different story.

👍👍

 

[dtrack22]

Sorry but you will have to start learning to think like this. It behooves all of you to realize that if you can't do this, you will not be amongst the best and brightest.

You should have been able to extrapolate what the answer was with a little thought. Wait until you are in residency and are on some of your medicine rotations.

You did have a Micro course in 1st or 2nd year no?

One thing is that, on one hand, all I keep reading about is how everyone wants parity. Why shouldn't you be able to answer that question? You are given the tools are you not?

Oh BTW, if you think this format is challenging, wait until you see what your Surgery Boards are like. Get used to it.

So why aren't our boards formatted like this??

but for most medical students, passing the USMLE isn't hard

It's hard for about 8% of MD students and some number over 20% of DO students...so you are right. Easy for most.

It'd be lower than our pass rates, but still 60-70+%

I think you are being a little generous, but I would say right around 60% is a good estimate. And that is WITH a curriculum change that would include all of the necessary topics covered in the USMLE. One of the schools actually did a little study, based on entrance scores and test scores while in school compared to their DO peers who took the USMLE, but the data was never published. I have heard what that data suggested but it is nothing more than hearsay.

Regardless, that would be a wonderful thing for our profession don't you all think? I mean, the 15-20% attrition isn't high enough. We should up to to 40%! It would solve the residency (non) issue and create wonderful job opportunities for those that do pass. Where do I sign?

Until schools either have more students to choose from or become more selective on their own (never gonna happen), the USMLE would be a bad thing. I don't think there are many students (you know, the one's living it right now?) who would say having "all" of us take the exam would do any good. But hey, what do we know?

 

[dtrack22]

And if you want to know what the APMA thinks, all you need to know is that they want us to take the exam but they want to administer it themselves (outside of the NBME) so that they "own" the data. Meaning it would be up to them to actually publish it and it would not be made public until they decide to make it so. That alone should tell you how confident they are in letting all 600 students sign up for the USMLE...

 

[347932]

So why aren't our boards formatted like this??

When something isn't absolutely required it is rarely done.

Just imagine all the complaining about failure rates if it was. Oy Vey.

As I've said, your Surgery Boards are. Look around and see how many of your more contemporary colleagues complain about not being able to become board qualified (at this point because they can't pass the written examination).

Just as an anecdote, one of my professors, Dr. Harvey Lemont, sat for the MD pathology boards and passed them. It was the last time the MD community allowed a Non MD to sit for that examination. Everyone before had failed. Interesting, huh?

I believe I've said this to you before, dtrack. If you want to initiate change, get involved. It may take 10 years, but you can help to make it happen.

 

[flyhi]

If you want to initiate change, get involved. It may take 10 years, but you can help to make it happen.

👍

 

[MossPoh]

The behavioral science stuff is so basic it is ridiculous. The neuro is really the biggest barrier, but one could memorize first aid and get a big chunk of the neuro right. I may have been generous with the 60-70% pass rate, but if you were given 4-6 weeks of solid independent study and had a proper schedule, it'd be completely doable.

Most students who fail the exam had significant life problems going on concurrently or only took 1-2 weeks to study and then panicked.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

The neuro is really the biggest barrier, but one could memorize first aid and get a big chunk of the neuro right

Why is neuro used as the example? (not just by you MossPoh)


At least at my school, we take a Neuroanatomy course with lab during 2nd semester and a Clinical Neurology course during our 3rd semester.

The 6 credit hours dedicated to to Neuro is equal to our Physiology and Gross Anatomy courses.

I didn't read every single post, am I missing something here?

 

[DPMer]

Why is neuro used as the example? (not just by you MossPoh)


At least at my school, we take a Neuroanatomy course with lab during 2nd semester and a Clinical Neurology course during our 3rd semester.

The 6 credit hours dedicated to to Neuro is equal to our Physiology and Gross Anatomy courses.

I didn't read every single post, am I missing something here?

MMM??? Ok...for the neuroanatomy lab course, did you have 2 or 3 lab practical exams that tested you on slices of the human brain, I mean, the entire human brain? The lab is an entire semester long...spring semester of 2nd year. This is a standard requirement for allopath med schools and osteopath med schools in USA, allopath schools in the Caribbean, and allopath schools in Canada.
Also, allopath and osteopath students finish gross anatomy in 4 months (including lower extremity anatomy) usually in the fall semester of 1st year (September to December). We pod students finish gross anatomy in 8 months (General Anatomy in Fall from Sept to Dec.) and (Lower Extremity Anatomy in Spring from January to May). POINT? Allopaths and Osteopaths have a more difficult load, memorizing twice the load of material in HALF the time we pod students do.

 

[darazon]

MMM??? Ok...for the neuroanatomy lab course, did you have 2 or 3 lab practical exams that tested you on slices of the human brain, I mean, the entire human brain? The lab is an entire semester long...spring semester of 2nd year. This is a standard requirement for allopath med schools and osteopath med schools in USA, allopath schools in the Caribbean, and allopath schools in Canada.
Also, allopath and osteopath students finish gross anatomy in 4 months (including lower extremity anatomy) usually in the fall semester of 1st year (September to December). We pod students finish gross anatomy in 8 months (General Anatomy in Fall from Sept to Dec.) and (Lower Extremity Anatomy in Spring from January to May). POINT? Allopaths and Osteopaths have a more difficult load, memorizing twice the load of material in HALF the time we pod students do.

This is not the case for all pod schools.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

MMM??? Ok...for the neuroanatomy lab course, did you have 2 or 3 lab practical exams that tested you on slices of the human brain, I mean, the entire human brain? The lab is an entire semester long.

Yes.

Also, allopath and osteopath students finish gross anatomy in 4 months (including lower extremity anatomy) usually in the fall semester of 1st year (September to December). We pod students finish gross anatomy in 8 months (General Anatomy in Fall from Sept to Dec.) and (Lower Extremity Anatomy in Spring from January to May). POINT? Allopaths and Osteopaths have a more difficult load, memorizing twice the load of material in HALF the time we pod students do.

This has no application to my comments whatsoever.

 

[FiveOVicryl]

We pod students finish gross anatomy in 8 months (General Anatomy in Fall from Sept to Dec.) and (Lower Extremity Anatomy in Spring from January to May). POINT? Allopaths and Osteopaths have a more difficult load, memorizing twice the load of material in HALF the time we pod students do.

This level of ignorance amazes me.

 

[dtrack22]

Also, allopath and osteopath students finish gross anatomy in 4 months (including lower extremity anatomy) usually in the fall semester of 1st year (September to December). We pod students finish gross anatomy in 8 months (General Anatomy in Fall from Sept to Dec.) and (Lower Extremity Anatomy in Spring from January to May)...

This isn't true. At all. At any of the pod schools. I've always felt a little dumber after reading DPMer's posts but this one takes the cake.

 

[amaprez]

This isn't true. At all. At any of the pod schools. I've always felt a little dumber after reading DPMer's posts but this one takes the cake.

Well I'm sure it's true at DPMer's school at least. Curriculum does vary slightly from school to school. Does it really matter how long a Gross Anatomy class is?

 

[flyhi]

Perhaps there is a very good reason pods do anatomy that way and MD/DOs do not. Try this....we KNOW which specialty we are going into and therefore a ton of emphasis is placed on LEA. There is no reason for an MD/DO to spend as much time as we do on it. Plus, you have to compare content. Some schools, the students don't even do their own dissections, they use prosected specimens that are provided......of course this would drastically shorten the course. And, some MD/DO schools don't use live specimens at all! As you know, dissections are very time consuming and this could easily account for a month or two difference in the length of the course.

 

[Ferocity]

This isn't true. At all. At any of the pod schools. I've always felt a little dumber after reading DPMer's posts but this one takes the cake.

 

[347932]

Some schools, the students don't even do their own dissections, they use prosected specimens that are provided...

Oh my gosh, is this true???

 

[myhandsarecold]

check out some of the texas schools. they have 12 week gen surg

 

[flyhi]

Oh my gosh, is this true???

Yes. There are also two DO schools off the top of my head...LECOM- Erie and Seton Hill that do not use cadavers. I know people at both and as of 2008/2009, Seton Hill did not have an anatomy lab. It should be noted, both schools use a PBL style of teaching. There are probably many more out there, but I never had a reason to research it.

 

[amaprez]

Oh my gosh, is this true???

It doesn't really make too much of a difference tbh. Yes it helps ingrain the structures more firmly if you find them yourself, but the time/benefit ratio is also bad. Spending 3-4 hours digging through fat and fascia just to show the whole brachial plexus 🙁