Usuhs

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My JAG looked at it, and that was the conclusion we came to. It would only apply to people with active service. It would need funding and billets which will make implementing it a very slow process.
 
twillson said:
New version of previously vetoed bill looks like it'll make it to Pres's desk with provision that prior officer's keep rank and pay but do not accrue time in service or grade while at USUHS.

It's too bad they cut out the "credit for active duty USUHS time" bit.

Most USUHS grads I know have no intention of remaining in until retirement unless they already have many years in - which is interesting, since the stated purpose of USUHS is to produce career military physicians.

If they credited USUHS time toward retirement (and not by that convoluted back-end addition scheme used now) that might change. For the average civilian Joe who goes to USUHS and then does 4 years of GME, he's eligible to get out with 15 years served (but only 11 counting toward retirement). There's a big difference between sticking it out for another 5 years vs 9 years to get the retirement benefits.

Granting credit for USUHS years could be a huge boost to retention ... but then again, it appears the Navy is happy with sub-10% retention (presumably because retirees are so expensive).
 
Granting credit for USUHS years could be a huge boost to retention ... but then again, it appears the Navy is happy with sub-10% retention (presumably because retirees are so expensive).

I think they hedge their bets on people getting out. They figure they got a good few years out of ya...then you go and they don't owe you anything. Not usre if that's really the midset but it sure seems like it unfortunately. It's also silly that you are locked in rank but still "Active Duty." It definately works out better if you're a prior both pay-wise and retirement-wise. (I think I am making up words there...oh well)
 
It's too bad they cut out the "credit for active duty USUHS time" bit.

Most USUHS grads I know have no intention of remaining in until retirement unless they already have many years in - which is interesting, since the stated purpose of USUHS is to produce career military physicians.

If they credited USUHS time toward retirement (and not by that convoluted back-end addition scheme used now) that might change. For the average civilian Joe who goes to USUHS and then does 4 years of GME, he's eligible to get out with 15 years served (but only 11 counting toward retirement). There's a big difference between sticking it out for another 5 years vs 9 years to get the retirement benefits.

Granting credit for USUHS years could be a huge boost to retention ... but then again, it appears the Navy is happy with sub-10% retention (presumably because retirees are so expensive).

I am curious where you get the sub-10% retention number. I often see numbers thrown around without any evidence to suggest they are based in fact.
 
it appears the Navy is happy with sub-10% retention (presumably because retirees are so expensive).


That doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things. If the Navy is looking to save money on retirees, better to look to getting rid of line officers and enlisted personnel before they earn retirement...these guys make up a much larger portion of the retiree pool than docs. Not only that, doctors are very cheap retireees in the grand scheme of things...when you count all the pro-pays and bonuses that aren't included in retirement, retired Navy docs are making way less than 50% (or whatever) pension.
 
That doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things.

Much of what the Navy does doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things. 🙂

I agree, the intelligent thing to do would be to take steps to retain already-trained doctors. But all we've seen thus far is halfway measures to boost HPSP recruitment.

ASP hasn't been increased in what, 15 or 20 years? It's hard to come to any conclusion other than that the military doesn't want doctors to stay in until retirement.
 
Hi All,
What is the admissions timeline that you have experienced? If I take my MCATs in July, when should I hear regarding supplemental info, an interview, and then (hopefully) acceptance? Thanks!
 
It's too bad they cut out the "credit for active duty USUHS time" bit.

Most USUHS grads I know have no intention of remaining in until retirement unless they already have many years in - which is interesting, since the stated purpose of USUHS is to produce career military physicians.

If they credited USUHS time toward retirement (and not by that convoluted back-end addition scheme used now) that might change. For the average civilian Joe who goes to USUHS and then does 4 years of GME, he's eligible to get out with 15 years served (but only 11 counting toward retirement). There's a big difference between sticking it out for another 5 years vs 9 years to get the retirement benefits.

Granting credit for USUHS years could be a huge boost to retention ... but then again, it appears the Navy is happy with sub-10% retention (presumably because retirees are so expensive).


Yeah, it's hard not to feel a little miffed on missing out on 4 years of O3 pay while at school, but what I'd really have preferred would have been TIS credit for my four years. The current change only addresses a small proportion of students with prior service officer time (a handful in my class), while the TIS credit would give every grad incentive to stick around longer.
 
Did any of you visit the campus before applying? It is my first choice, and I was thinking of heading back there during my spring break in March to check it out. Do they set up any tours or anything like that? Thanks...
 
Did any of you visit the campus before applying? It is my first choice, and I was thinking of heading back there during my spring break in March to check it out. Do they set up any tours or anything like that? Thanks...

I don't know of any tours that are set up. You could get the Office of STudent affairs number and ask if they could get somebody for you. I know that if you come the last week of March nobody will be around as it is our spring break. Why did you want to come visit? If it's to look for housing/explore the area I would say it would not be a wasted trip otherwise there may not be much more to see than what you saw interview day. Happy to answer any questions you have.
 
Does anyone know how full the class is at this point? I have a late interview, but I'm really hoping to get in.
 
I don't know of any tours that are set up. You could get the Office of STudent affairs number and ask if they could get somebody for you. I know that if you come the last week of March nobody will be around as it is our spring break. Why did you want to come visit? If it's to look for housing/explore the area I would say it would not be a wasted trip otherwise there may not be much more to see than what you saw interview day. Happy to answer any questions you have.

Thanks for the info. I mainly want to go because I have never been to DC, and seeing how it's my first choice I figured I should check it out. My gf lived there for a while, so she is excited about a little vacation that way as well. My spring break is the last week of March as well. I looked at the academic calendar though and it seems like different year students had different spring breaks? Is that wrong?
 
Thanks for the info. I mainly want to go because I have never been to DC, and seeing how it's my first choice I figured I should check it out. My gf lived there for a while, so she is excited about a little vacation that way as well. My spring break is the last week of March as well. I looked at the academic calendar though and it seems like different year students had different spring breaks? Is that wrong?

Might be true I dunno. First and second years have the same I think. 3rd and 4th years may not even get one I honestly haven't looked at their schedules since I am MS-2. It would be a good idea to explore for housing possibilities while you are here though (understanding you are a year away right?). Don't be afraid to look in gaithersburg or germantown. I live in G'burg and commute only about 20 min one way so it's not bad. Catch is that you have to leave by 6:40am but classes start @ 7:30 so it's no prob. Bonus there is more house/apt for your money.

Why are you waiting til July for MCAT? If you need it to study then take the time, but do your AMCAS as soon as it opens!!!! Do not put it off! Then as sson as your scores come in submit that bad boy. Secondaries will come within weeks of submission (1-3). Every school will give you a secondary cuz they want your $$$. The sooner you return materials the sooner your interview date, which means the class won't be full yet!
 
Does anyone know how full the class is at this point? I have a late interview, but I'm really hoping to get in.

Last year was a more competative year I heard. So what that means for this year ???? That said, the waitlist will move! Do not be discouraged if you get waitlisted! I was waitlisted and did not get my acceptance until May 15th. As people get acceptances to other schools they will have to decide where to go, and of course on May 15th you can't hold more than 1 acceptance anymore. Enjoy your interview day (if you can being all nervous and what not).
 
Why are you waiting til July for MCAT? If you need it to study then take the time, but do your AMCAS as soon as it opens!!!! Do not put it off!

That is my plan- I am going to start filling it out the first day I can and request all of my transcripts, etc., so that I can submit it on the first day possible. I am taking the Kaplan course in June, so I am taking the 1st MCAT available after that. I figure it is better to wait and be more prepared than take it too early...
 
Does anyone know what the chances are of spending the majority of your 3rd and 4th year clinicals in Wilford Hall in San Antonio? I heard a rumor about that.
 
Does anyone know what the chances are of spending the majority of your 3rd and 4th year clinicals in Wilford Hall in San Antonio? I heard a rumor about that.

OK so here's the deal. Yes it is theoretically possible to spend all or the majority of your rotations in San Antonio (most are shared time between WHMC and BAMC). The likelihood of all happening is near 0. The best I have heard of for 8 rotation 3rd year is 6/8 in San Antonio. Keep in mind that two of the six are 12 weeks and the other four are six weeks. Surgery, a 12 week roatation, is one of the hardest to get in San Antonio since everybody wants it and ionly 6 are available at one time. Additionally, several of the roations have peroids of time that must be spent at USUHS.
Fourth year I would again assume is possible but has slim to none chance of all in San Antonio. Fourth year has some mandatory USUHS classes as well, and can very from student to student depending on the number of electives you get.
Bottom line...living in San Antonio for the third and fourth year CAN be done. However, in order to acheive this you must be willing to sacrifice substantial conveniences, and time with your family who live there. You should not start sweating over this until after Christmas of your second year at USUHS though cuz there will be no way to figure out if it's possible or if you want to until you have selected all your third year rotations.
Hope that helps!
 
Hey guys, ya think there's a chance of getting selected off of the alternate list this year? I've selected Army as my first choice of service?
 
OK so here's the deal. Yes it is theoretically possible to spend all or the majority of your rotations in San Antonio (most are shared time between WHMC and BAMC). The likelihood of all happening is near 0. The best I have heard of for 8 rotation 3rd year is 6/8 in San Antonio. Keep in mind that two of the six are 12 weeks and the other four are six weeks. Surgery, a 12 week roatation, is one of the hardest to get in San Antonio since everybody wants it and ionly 6 are available at one time. Additionally, several of the roations have peroids of time that must be spent at USUHS.
Fourth year I would again assume is possible but has slim to none chance of all in San Antonio. Fourth year has some mandatory USUHS classes as well, and can very from student to student depending on the number of electives you get.
Bottom line...living in San Antonio for the third and fourth year CAN be done. However, in order to acheive this you must be willing to sacrifice substantial conveniences, and time with your family who live there. You should not start sweating over this until after Christmas of your second year at USUHS though cuz there will be no way to figure out if it's possible or if you want to until you have selected all your third year rotations.
Hope that helps!

This was very helpful, thank you. So, basically don't count on it?
 
Twillson,
Is there a rule of thumb about where the different military residencies are? I am Navy and will be matriculating this August, so I am obviously most curious about naval residencies (assuming I won't do a GMO tour). For example are there multiple locations for Navy surgery residencies or IM or Peds, etc.? OR, does each specialty have just one location?
 
Twillson,
Is there a rule of thumb about where the different military residencies are? I am Navy and will be matriculating this August, so I am obviously most curious about naval residencies (assuming I won't do a GMO tour). For example are there multiple locations for Navy surgery residencies or IM or Peds, etc.? OR, does each specialty have just one location?

I don't know of any "rule of thumb" for Navy folks. I'm USAF so take what I say with a grain of salt. From my understanding there are many locations ie NNMC, Portsmouth, San Diego, etc. The larger hospitals have more programs the smaller ones generally have less. To use an Air Force example the two biggest AF hospitals are at Wright Patterson and Lacklund AFB's. Those hospitals offer the largest variety and most slots of any AF places. There are websites that should tell you what is offered where so try googling NAVY GME locations.
 
Thanks. Yeah, I think I found it. Anyone else interested in Navy GME locations might try this link: http://nmmpte.med.navy.mil/gme/GMEDIR.HTM#NNMC%20Bethesda.
 
I was in NJROTC during high school and opted out of NROTC for the college years.
I will be graduating this May and have realized that I want nothing more than to come back from my hiatus to the military (i.e. Navy). I was wondering if I can get any advice with my stats (link below) and likelihood of getting into USUHS.

Hoping for Class of 2013. What's your thoughts?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=9897

GPA is low in my first two years, due to some personal and family matters. Residence in MA.
 
I was in NJROTC during high school and opted out of NROTC for the college years.
I will be graduating this May and have realized that I want nothing more than to come back from my hiatus to the military (i.e. Navy). I was wondering if I can get any advice with my stats (link below) and likelihood of getting into USUHS.

Hoping for Class of 2013. What's your thoughts?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=9897

GPA is low in my first two years, due to some personal and family matters. Residence in MA.

USU traditionally will overlook some bad performance. That said, to what degree they do this depends on how competative the year is and other things you have going for you. High MCAT scores would tend to give you some wiggle room, and your extracurriculars are good. You may want to apply for masters programs in something you like and re-apply to med school once you finish that. A few friends of mine were in your boat and had success going that route, the only drawback was postponing med school a few years (which matter very little in the long run!!). I would not spend a fortune applying but that's just my opinion....my stats 3.4 GPA(1 yr 2.8 other four 3.7), 29MCAT, led to about >$2000 spent, 1 interview, 1 waitlist and eventual acceptance at USUHS. That said I know there are people in my class with lower scores and GPA's, but I did not even get interviews anywhere else (12 apps). I would say your best chance of acceptance is at USUHS, but you should consider what to do productive if you don't get in that will help you next time. I AM NOT ANY KIND OF EXPERT!!!🙂
 
Thanks -- Any input is good.

Am going to do MPH program at BU while applying to med school this cycle. (If you noticed, I have an interest in International Health.)
 
Thanks -- Any input is good.

Am going to do MPH program at BU while applying to med school this cycle. (If you noticed, I have an interest in International Health.)

Sounds like you have a solid plan. Hope things work out for you! If you happen to not get in this go around but do well in your MPH program you should be strong candidate.
 
How good is the likelihood of getting accepted off the waitlist? Also does USUHS give direct acceptances to strong candidates who interview late in the cycle, or are they also waitlisted?
 
How good is the likelihood of getting accepted off the waitlist?

All depends on the year. I was waitlisted after a NOV 17 interview and got a phone call on MAY 15 informing me of my acceptance. It can move very quickly or not, just depends. Likely it will not move too much until the drop day which is MAY 15, on which day as you may know you must drop any extra held acceptances and declare your choice for matriculation.

Also does USUHS give direct acceptances to strong candidates who interview late in the cycle, or are they also waitlisted?

This I don't know. I think they fill the class as they review apps but I don't know for sure. You might be able to find out by calling the admissions office.
 
Hey howzit board,

I was an alternate last year and then moved up to waitlist. From what I hear, the people originally waitlisted have a good chance of getting in. It was people like me who were alternate and then bumped up to wait that have a shorter shot. Interviewing tomorrow morning again. Turned my app in late because i wasn't sure if i wanted to apply this year. we'll see how things turn out =P

uh lab '01



How good is the likelihood of getting accepted off the waitlist? Also does USUHS give direct acceptances to strong candidates who interview late in the cycle, or are they also waitlisted?
 
Twillson,
Is there a rule of thumb about where the different military residencies are? I am Navy and will be matriculating this August, so I am obviously most curious about naval residencies (assuming I won't do a GMO tour). For example are there multiple locations for Navy surgery residencies or IM or Peds, etc.? OR, does each specialty have just one location?

Dude, you're going to USUHS and you don't know the answer to this?!? OK. For a USU grad, with one notable recent exception discussed here previously, you will be required to do a Navy inservice internship. During or after that, you can apply to the residency of your choice. FP trains at Bremerton, Pendleton, Lejuene, Jax and Pensacola. Everyone else trains at the big 3 (Bethesda, Portsmouth, San Diego) and most of the specialties and all the internships are represented at all 3 hospitals.
 
Hi everyone --

I've read most everything on this thread and some others and have found it useful. (thank you 🙂) I've just joined the forum I wanted to say hello and ask a question that, while trivial, I would like to know more about.

What is student life like at USUHS? How does it compare to civilian med schools?

I know this is vague, but all I'm really looking for are your opinions. I know that medical school is an enormous amount of work, and can be overwhelming, in addition to the military training (+700 hours!) -- so, how do you manage? What is it like? What do you do for fun?

There are so many more important questions (arguable), but why not talk about something lighter for a moment 🙂
 
Hey People, I would like some of your input on what to do to be a more competitive applicant. Im a civilian that is really interested in getting into USUHS. I have a 3.8 gpa and about 200 hours of volunteer work. I havent taken the MCAT yet but Im planing on taking it in august. I know thats late but I need to take physics 1 and 2 over the summer so I can be ready for the MCAT. The draw back to my application besides applying late is I have a lot of W's on my transcript. Like 20 credit hours worth of W's. I had to work a lot to help with bills. So what are my chances? I come from a disadvantaged home so Im hoping that might also help my application.
 
Hi everyone --

I've read most everything on this thread and some others and have found it useful. (thank you 🙂) I've just joined the forum I wanted to say hello and ask a question that, while trivial, I would like to know more about.

What is student life like at USUHS? How does it compare to civilian med schools?

I know this is vague, but all I'm really looking for are your opinions. I know that medical school is an enormous amount of work, and can be overwhelming, in addition to the military training (+700 hours!) -- so, how do you manage? What is it like? What do you do for fun?

There are so many more important questions (arguable), but why not talk about something lighter for a moment 🙂

I came to USUHS in 2006 not knowing what to expect as far as student life. What I found I love. I think that there is not any real good way to know how much free time you'll have cause it differs absed on your drive and your personal ability. I found that during first year I had a lot of free time after the first month or so. By then I had figured out what I needed to do to get the scores I wanted. I ususally worked pretty hard on the weeknights and then study weekends when I needed to catch up or had a test. A lot of the extra 700 hours thing is lecture time which is not required. Some of it is useful some is not.
We wear uniforms to class which is not really any sort of hardship you get used to it very quickly and it's so easy. The student body gets together several times over each semester, and there are always outings holiday parties and things going on. If you're into sports we have several club sports teams soccer, hockey, softball, running, rugby, football, indoor soccer etc etc. Some of these go year round. Another big bonus for USUHS students is that at the officer training programs the summer before you matriculate you will meet many of your classmates and get to know them. Then when you arrive at school you already know a few people which is nice. If you need more info PM me.
 
Hey howzit board,

I was an alternate last year and then moved up to waitlist. From what I hear, the people originally waitlisted have a good chance of getting in.

I'm just a lowly spouse who often reads over her husband's shoulder, but the quote above is so true. My husband was waitlisted, and actually did not get his acceptance letter until mid summer, around the first week of July, I think. It was a flurry of activity after that, with him having to give his current job at the time two weeks notice, having to vacate our apartment, schedule a PCS move, and find housing in Maryland all over the course of a month. He couldn't do OIS, so he did the MOST (I think that's the proper acronym).

Just don't give up, there's still time for you to get acceptance. Good luck!
 
How good is the likelihood of getting accepted off the waitlist? Also does USUHS give direct acceptances to strong candidates who interview late in the cycle, or are they also waitlisted?

I posted in the USUHS allopathic thread but I'd say the likelihood is good, considering I was waitlisted mid-February and then got called 2 days ago saying I'm conditionally accepted after only 2 weeks on the waitlist. So I guess it is already somewhat moving...I interviewed December 6.
 
Thanks for all the good info. I guess I shouldn't put the horse before the cart here, seeing that I haven't even heard what my status is yet. But, I figure the best case scenario is being put on the waitlist.
 
All depends on the year. I was waitlisted after a NOV 17 interview and got a phone call on MAY 15 informing me of my acceptance. It can move very quickly or not, just depends. Likely it will not move too much until the drop day which is MAY 15, on which day as you may know you must drop any extra held acceptances and declare your choice for matriculation.

I guess I reallly don't fully understand the waitlist process. I have read it over an over from the fliers they handed out, but the numbers don't make sense. For instance, assuming the dates for interview during the year you applied were similar to this year, means that if you were placed on the waitlist after a Nov. 17th interview, they accepted 80-85% of all people who interviewed prior to Nov. 17th. The same holds true for this year. According to the 2012 class thread, people from the Nov. 29th interview date started to be placed on the waitlist. If in fact all 171 places were filled prior to Nov. 29th, there would have been roughly a 80% acceptance of people who interviewed prior to Nov 29th.

If I am way off base here, please get me on the right track. I just can't see how 171 spots can be filled even before half the interviews are conducted.
 
If in fact all 171 places were filled prior to Nov. 29th, there would have been roughly a 80% acceptance of people who interviewed prior to Nov 29th.

If I am way off base here, please get me on the right track. I just can't see how 171 spots can be filled even before half the interviews are conducted.

The Air Force class generally fills first. So for example, when I got my waitlist letter there were still open seats in both the Army and Navy classes. If you are waitlisted AF and you are unopposed to going to another service I believe that you can call and notify them of your preference change. I am unsure as to whether this would secure you a spot, that you would have to ask about. (I mean ask school administration folks, not this forum)👍

Don't sweat it (easier said than done I know, been there) your letter is on its way to you....and remember if you're waitlisted it could well be a delayed CONGRATS
 
Does anyone know when or if the NDAA may take effect? Or is it simply one of those things that even though Congress approves it, each service may or may not budget for its implementation. Is this something that the services wanted? I am a current O-3, so this would be very nice (if I make it off the waitlist of course).
 
Hey

I was accepted unconditionally into the USUSH. I have a feel for the student life and what not, but can anyone speak to the military aspects such as the OBLC, field exercises, drills, etc.?

Thanks in advance!!
 
Congrats DrViolin on your acceptance. Can you tell us when you interviewed with USUHS? Thanks.

Hey

I was accepted unconditionally into the USUSH. I have a feel for the student life and what not, but can anyone speak to the military aspects such as the OBLC, field exercises, drills, etc.?

Thanks in advance!!
 
Hey

I was accepted unconditionally into the USUSH. I have a feel for the student life and what not, but can anyone speak to the military aspects such as the OBLC, field exercises, drills, etc.?

Thanks in advance!!

I was class of 2002 (Navy). The military side was minimal, except for the officer indoctrination course you go to before starting school.

OIS was the Navy equivalent of the Army's OBC, and it sucked. I hear it's shorter by a couple weeks now, but I'm not sure. It may be very different than it was ~10 years ago when I endured it. They tried their best to make it like boot camp, but the futility of herding a bunch of med students, dentists, and optometrists through that kind of daily absurdity was almost comical. I say comical because if you didn't laugh at the knuckle-dragging ******s who were lecturing from dog-eared copies of "7 Habits Of Highly Successful People" at a bunch of people who'd already achieved more in life than the instructors ever would, you'd cry. We lived in 1940s era barracks that needed painting, so one day they told us to paint it. (They were short on paintbrushes, so they gave us a box of latex gloves and directed us to sort of smear the paint ... and when we did a crappy job, they told us to do it again, and gave us some sponges. I'm still not sure if they thought that was a good idea, or if they were just screwing with us.)

In school, you wear uniforms to class each day, but the whole campus is a no-cover, no-salute area. A couple times per year we had formations outside. Physical fitness test twice per year. A handful of minimally-time-consuming ankle-biter classes on military medicine.

A week camping in the field with the Marines at Quantico after the MS1 year. Kind of fun, unless you hate the outdoors. Summer after your MS1 year, you spend some time doing non-medical stuff with a unit of your choice - this can be almost anything, so it really depends on what you set up. Another week of camping sometime during your MS4 year.

Except for the pre-USUHS officer indoctrination course, the military side was very understated. It certainly didn't impose on learning medicine at all. USUHS was a great place to go to school.
 
Hey everyone! I am an 8 year prior service pre-med who is seriously considering USUHS. How do they handle military fitness requirements there? I know we probably have to accomplish fitness tests every 6-12 months, but are there any mandatory PT requirements everyday or anything like that? I'm just curious about what to expect. Thanks!
 
No.

PT on your own, formal PT test (service-appropriate) every six months.

If you bolo the PT test then you get to do mandatory PT with the first sergeant.
 
As of October I've been USUHS Army bound. All of my paperwork has been sent to Miss Taylor (with the addendum for the new OBC date).

Has anyone received their orders for any of the branches or know when we should expect them?

For those of you who are committed to USUHS, any thoughts on what you're going to do about finding housing?

Cheers
 
As of October I've been USUHS Army bound. All of my paperwork has been sent to Miss Taylor (with the addendum for the new OBC date).

Has anyone received their orders for any of the branches or know when we should expect them?

For those of you who are committed to USUHS, any thoughts on what you're going to do about finding housing?

Cheers

You need to call personnel from whatever branch you're in. Get somebody on the line who cuts orders and ask them to personally get yours going. If you wait for them to do it on their time it will take a while. I got mine in 1 week (after I mailed my paperwork--fedex) with about 3-4 phone calls. Randolph AFB folks if you're AF other branches I dunno.
 
So I realize that when I talk to people and I say MILITARY, they freak out until I reassure them that I am going to medical school, not the front lines of Iraq. Even so, there seem to still be those who what to dissuade me from attending USUHS. Even in their ignorance, I still like to research what these critics are whispering into my ears.

One critic especially stuck out, saying the verbage in officer commissioning contracts says the military can call me back for the rest of my life. Can anyone confirm or deny this claim? Personally a lifetime of possible military call backs is not conducive to stressfree existance.

Thanks in advance.
 
I say comical because if you didn't laugh at the knuckle-dragging ******s who were lecturing from dog-eared copies of "7 Habits Of Highly Successful People" at a bunch of people who'd already achieved more in life than the instructors ever would, you'd cry.
Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back there, pgg. Come out of the clouds and come down to the real world. 🙄
 
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