Usyd vs ANU vs UQ

[Elina10]

Hello everyone,

Thankfully enough I have been accepted to all the three MD programs I applied. Now I'm trying to decide which school to attend.

Background: International student (not a AUS nor a US resident). I took undergraduate in the US, and then worked in the US for a year. Last year I was rejected from all the US MD programs I applied, and hence applied to some medical schools in Australia.

Goals: I'd like to practice in Australia after graduation, and so internship spot is my big concern here. As a backup plan, I will also take the USMLE and match in the US as an international IMG. I'd like to become a surgeon in the future and I know it's a very hard and competitive pathway.

UQ - Pros: - Cheapest.
- Has good partnership with Ochsner and I could apply for an elective rotation there.
- Nice city and weather.
- I've accepted the offer (it came out in June, way before other programs) and paid the deposits.
Cons: - Large study body.
- To international students, internship spots seem very limited.

ANU - Pros: - Probably still the easiest school for its graduates to get an internship spot in ACT (Is it true?)
- Small student body.
- Very reputable research institution.
Cons: - The city itself.
- ACT just removed international student from their guaranteed internship list.
- Not as many international connections?
- Will have the give up the deposits I paid for UQ.

Usyd - Pros: - The best MD program in AUS? Or one of the best? At least very well known.
- The city (but very expensive cost of living...)
- Maybe easier to get an internship at one of the prevocational clinical hospitals?
Cons: - Cost of living.
- No established partnership with any US clinical school for elective rotations.
- Will have the give up the deposits I paid for UQ.

Anything adds to the pros and cons for each school? Any suggestions on which school to attend? Any thoughts help!!! THX!!!

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[EP-Boi]

Hi there, in the same batch as you and more or less in the same situation (except I don't want to stay on in Australia).

I think you mixed up your pros and cons?

At least for me the choice has got more to do with how much USCE and flexible study one can get during the syllabus itself. Regarding aussie internships, someone over in a dedicated aussie med forum actually calculated how many graduates there will be by the time we graduate for all the medical schools vs number of internship spots now and projections honestly don't look very bright unless a miracle happens. Basically all the states except for WA will be in serious deficit of ~100 unplaced students each by 2023 with NSW being the worst hit and QLD coming a very close second. ACT is better than them but still nowhere close to what it was when it guaranteed internship positions. I'm not sure if he accounted for growth rate of intern positions but the aussie government doesn't seem to be looking to increase budgets anytime soon so it may or may not actually be better - time will tell. Surgery seems to be something you'll only get a remote shot at past PGY5 at least according to the practicing docs in the Australasia forum (you can look through some of the other threads).

I think UQ will have the best resources available for potential USMLE takers because of their UQO cohort which apparently get like shelf exams and stuff? I was discussing USyd vs UQ on another thread and yeah it seems to be good in that regard.

USyd actually has the most connections worldwide for the 3 schools you've listed. In the US where UQ only has oschner, USyd has columbia, cornell and goergetown as partners that you can do your clinical electives at. The page is a little hard to locate on the sydney website but if you look hard enough you'll find it.

Both UQ and USyd allow for ~6months of USCE for international students so that's probably a lot more than you need considering NY (one of the largest states that is IMG friendly) actually DQs you if you have more than 3months of experience outside of your uni's country on your cert itself. ANU on the other hand gives you 1 month to do your electives. imo of the 3 ANU seems like the way to go if you want to stay in Oz but will limit you for USCE. The other 2 are I guess tied in terms of how good they are for you to make the jump but I'm not sure if the differences between the 2 will be like really significant?

Since you already paid for UQ I guess you should just stick there? I'm personally going for USyd because I've been wanting to get in for a long time but I don't think I'll be disadvantaged or advantaged greatly in either UQ or USyd. ANU would be my first choice if I didn't care about US at all cos the admin seems to really care, the student body is like a family + from what I was told during the interview, its an environment that doesn't encourage being a gunner cos its apparently going to be P/F (that's what the lady told me)?

 

[Elina10]

Hi Kev0530,

Wow it's surprising to learn that you're in the same situation.

I've been tracking the numbers+percentages of international students getting an Aussie intern, and it did seem worse every year. I think QLD actually has a lesser % of intl who got an intern spot, probably because of its larger student cohort and not as many intl students applied for an Aussie intern.

Matching in the US seems really reasonable. Last year ~46% international IMG matched, not a bad number.

I think we are coming to the same conclusions that Usyd and UQ are not that different in terms of their resources to help matching in the US. ANU is certainly better if I want an Aussie intern. And I liked ANU's interview a lot more than the Usyd one.

Which Aus med forum are you talking about? If don't mind PM me? Would love to join and read more threads.

Btw, yah I mixed the pros and cons up lol. Just edited my posts.

Thanks a lot!!

Hi there, in the same batch as you and more or less in the same situation (except I don't want to stay on in Australia).

I think you mixed up your pros and cons?

At least for me the choice has got more to do with how much USCE and flexible study one can get during the syllabus itself. Regarding aussie internships, someone over in a dedicated aussie med forum actually calculated how many graduates there will be by the time we graduate for all the medical schools vs number of internship spots now and projections honestly don't look very bright unless a miracle happens. Basically all the states except for WA will be in serious deficit of ~100 unplaced students each by 2023 with NSW being the worst hit and QLD coming a very close second. ACT is better than them but still nowhere close to what it was when it guaranteed internship positions. I'm not sure if he accounted for growth rate of intern positions but the aussie government doesn't seem to be looking to increase budgets anytime soon so it may or may not actually be better - time will tell. Surgery seems to be something you'll only get a remote shot at past PGY5 at least according to the practicing docs in the Australasia forum (you can look through some of the other threads).

I think UQ will have the best resources available for potential USMLE takers because of their UQO cohort which apparently get like shelf exams and stuff? I was discussing USyd vs UQ on another thread and yeah it seems to be good in that regard.

USyd actually has the most connections worldwide for the 3 schools you've listed. In the US where UQ only has oschner, USyd has columbia, cornell and goergetown as partners that you can do your clinical electives at. The page is a little hard to locate on the sydney website but if you look hard enough you'll find it.

Both UQ and USyd allow for ~6months of USCE for international students so that's probably a lot more than you need considering NY (one of the largest states that is IMG friendly) actually DQs you if you have more than 3months of experience outside of your uni's country on your cert itself. ANU on the other hand gives you 1 month to do your electives. imo of the 3 ANU seems like the way to go if you want to stay in Oz but will limit you for USCE. The other 2 are I guess tied in terms of how good they are for you to make the jump but I'm not sure if the differences between the 2 will be like really significant?

Since you already paid for UQ I guess you should just stick there? I'm personally going for USyd because I've been wanting to get in for a long time but I don't think I'll be disadvantaged or advantaged greatly in either UQ or USyd. ANU would be my first choice if I didn't care about US at all cos the admin seems to really care, the student body is like a family + from what I was told during the interview, its an environment that doesn't encourage being a gunner cos its apparently going to be P/F (that's what the lady told me)?

 

[dragon18]

Hi Elina10,

Hi. Just out of curiosity but after you paid the 8k +3k for the COE and placement, what is the deadline for the first semester tuition for Queensland? Thanks for your time.

 

[Elina10]

Hi Elina10,

Hi. Just out of curiosity but after you paid the 8k +3k for the COE and placement, what is the deadline for the first semester tuition for Queensland? Thanks for your time.

Hi! I haven't received any notifications about tuition payment so I honestly don't know the answer. I guess it's not going to due soon

 

[EP-Boi]

Hi Kev0530,

Wow it's surprising to learn that you're in the same situation.

I've been tracking the numbers+percentages of international students getting an Aussie intern, and it did seem worse every year. I think QLD actually has a lesser % of intl who got an intern spot, probably because of its larger student cohort and not as many intl students applied for an Aussie intern.

Matching in the US seems really reasonable. Last year ~46% international IMG matched, not a bad number.

I think we are coming to the same conclusions that Usyd and UQ are not that different in terms of their resources to help matching in the US. ANU is certainly better if I want an Aussie intern. And I liked ANU's interview a lot more than the Usyd one.

Which Aus med forum are you talking about? If don't mind PM me? Would love to join and read more threads.

Btw, yah I mixed the pros and cons up lol. Just edited my posts.

Thanks a lot!!

Lol I see you in the forum I was referencing so I'll save you a PM. 46% is kinda bad tbh but regardless of percentage, no harm trying.

 

[DoctorS84]

No one has missed out on an internship in AUS from USyd in recent memory who wanted one. The CMI program has always picked up the slack when IMGs couldn't get one through state internships. It has also been made better this year transforming the CMI program into the Junior Doctor Training Program. Some highlights include an increase of 15 spots to 115 spots from 2020, and no rural return of service contract attached. AMSA Budget Update re: CMI | Australian Medical Students’ Association

This isn't saying it will be all lemonade when you get in and graduate, but currently the climate is stable as far as internship allocations goes. Furthur training is another story altogether.

 

[Elina10]

No one has missed out on an internship in AUS from USyd in recent memory who wanted one. The CMI program has always picked up the slack when IMGs couldn't get one through state internships. It has also been made better this year transforming the CMI program into the Junior Doctor Training Program. Some highlights include an increase of 15 spots to 115 spots from 2020, and no rural return of service contract attached.
This isn't saying it will be all lemonade when you get in and graduate, but currently the climate is stable as far as internship allocations goes. Furthur training is another story altogether.

Thanks for the info DoctorS84. Good to know that Usyd is not as bad as I thought in terms of internship.

 

[dragon18]

@Elina10 Hi. I was wondering which website are you using to track the internships rates such as queensland. Could you point me in the right direction I am very interested in these numbers. Thank you.

 

[pitman]

There are no official numbers. AMSA (the national student org) tried (tries?) to track grads but keeps stuffing it up.

States individually will report, usually months after internships start, whether they know of grads from their state who could not get internship. There have been anecdotal reports of some missing out across the country, but apparently no significant number for any state. But keep in mind any reported number of those not placed cannot be verified, since there is no well-organized verification process, particularly for those who may have applied here but ended up back home for residency.

 

[Domperidone]

Hello everyone,

Thankfully enough I have been accepted to all the three MD programs I applied. Now I'm trying to decide which school to attend.

Background: International student (not a AUS nor a US resident). I took undergraduate in the US, and then worked in the US for a year. Last year I was rejected from all the US MD programs I applied, and hence applied to some medical schools in Australia.

Goals: I'd like to practice in Australia after graduation, and so internship spot is my big concern here. As a backup plan, I will also take the USMLE and match in the US as an international IMG. I'd like to become a surgeon in the future and I know it's a very hard and competitive pathway.

UQ - Pros: - Cheapest.
- Has good partnership with Ochsner and I could apply for an elective rotation there.
- Nice city and weather.
- I've accepted the offer (it came out in June, way before other programs) and paid the deposits.
Cons: - Large study body.
- To international students, internship spots seem very limited.

ANU - Pros: - Probably still the easiest school for its graduates to get an internship spot in ACT (Is it true?)
- Small student body.
- Very reputable research institution.
Cons: - The city itself.
- ACT just removed international student from their guaranteed internship list.
- Not as many international connections?
- Will have the give up the deposits I paid for UQ.

Usyd - Pros: - The best MD program in AUS? Or one of the best? At least very well known.
- The city (but very expensive cost of living...)
- Maybe easier to get an internship at one of the prevocational clinical hospitals?
Cons: - Cost of living.
- No established partnership with any US clinical school for elective rotations.
- Will have the give up the deposits I paid for UQ.

Anything adds to the pros and cons for each school? Any suggestions on which school to attend? Any thoughts help!!! THX!!!

Did you apply for US DO?

Intern year = 1 year. And the aim is to send internationals rural (great for Australia, but not necessarily suitable for everyone, and you can't know that when you've never worked in medicine before).
Intern = 1 single year. Doesn't make you a consultant/attending afterwards, you still have minimum 5-12 years more of training to go. There's more bottlenecks. Sorry to re-hash this after posting this in other forums.

Doesn't matter what school you choose.
Question is more
- do you want exposure to a subspecialty and research? then choose a city based school to have access to larger hospitals that can offer subspecialties
- are you from a rural background and want rural medicine or greater practical skills = go rural
- doesn't matter? then choose any of the above
- makes no difference in the long run.

Being a surgeon in australia..
just to get into 'residency' means being a rotating resident for up to 6 years after you finish medical school. then doing another 5 years of surgical training to finish your training. then additional 2-3 years of fellowship.
look up the royal college of surgeons website, particularly at requirements. it's a points-based system, and you need to accumulate a lot, hence why it takes ages to just get on.

Also..
it's not hard to get into an Australian MD school.
They need full fee paying international students. Getting in is not an achievement. Some Australian schools will take you if you have a high school diploma (no university degree or MCAT required). UQ just has a cut off, no selection committee.

 

[Domperidone]

No one has missed out on an internship in AUS from USyd in recent memory who wanted one. The CMI program has always picked up the slack when IMGs couldn't get one through state internships. It has also been made better this year transforming the CMI program into the Junior Doctor Training Program. Some highlights include an increase of 15 spots to 115 spots from 2020, and no rural return of service contract attached. AMSA Budget Update re: CMI | Australian Medical Students’ Association

This isn't saying it will be all lemonade when you get in and graduate, but currently the climate is stable as far as internship allocations goes. Furthur training is another story altogether.

What year of med school are you in?
Does no one care what happens after internship?

I'm not trying to be rude. but surely the med student or pre med dream doesn't end with an Australian internship.

 

[DoctorS84]

What year of med school are you in?
Does no one care what happens after internship?

I'm not trying to be rude. but surely the med student or pre med dream doesn't end with an Australian internship.

Actually, you clearly are being rude. I was responding to the misinformation of recent graduates missing out on INTERNSHIPS in NSW because of the so called "internship crisis" which is a whole bunch of fluff and no one in the last 5 years, at least from University of Sydney has missed out on an internship IF they wanted one SOMEWHERE.

I know your stance on post-grad training in Australia, you have clearly stated this many times. I have already stated post-grad training after your initial 2 years (as most are 2 year contracts in NSW for PGY1 + PGY2, except CMI contracts which are changing as well). is another story altogether. There is an issue with limited amount of training positions in certain specialties, obviously there is still large incentives to train as a rural generalists, and registrars can make good money if they choose this pathway. There is also issues even after you get on a training program and try to get an urban job, may have to do x number of research/fellowships years to be competitive.

But that really wasn't my point. No one can predict what happens in another 2-3 year, let alone another 6-7 years down the line. We can only sort of see the trends and hope for the best. Currently it seems stable up to PGY2 in NSW.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention the changing climates of a visa post-grad, also an issue if you want to get into a certain colleges, as most colleges, especially if you want to specialist require PR before you are allowed to even get on the program. Securing a PR visa takes a few more years now with the removal oft he 457 Visa. Unless you get a partner visa or another means of a PR visa, this may add a couple years as an RMO and complicate where you can train (ie. urban/regiona/rural) as an IMG training in Aus.

 

[Domperidone]

Actually, you clearly are being rude.

Okay then I'm out. Take care and good luck!
It's the internet, neither of us have any obligation to each other to further respond. if you feel that way - just ignore what i have to say, that's easier and it's less energy pointlessly wasted. There's also ignore functions on this website, I don't mean this flippantly, but those functions are there to help you.

"Rude" is absolutely not my intention. intent is as always, getting to you to think about things. I asked it earnestly, what is that you want to do? Was that really your goal to attend school in Australia, just get an internship? I hope not.

I've already progressed well beyond intern year, and can say how hard that was to do. So, I don't think any advice about going off-shore should ever end with 'then you get this intern year' - as it would be short changing posters about to make serious decisions impacting not 4 yrs of their lives but more like 10-15. The rest of your career as a resident/registrar (5-10 years or more) you're reliant on a publicly funded system to help you finish off. It's more complex than 'we don't know what will happen'. There is maldistribution (as you've touched on) with bottlenecks everywhere and tightening VISA restrictions. Realistically, they may not get to be neurosurgeons or ophthalmologists for example, if that's what they would like. They deserve to have some idea of that. It's not that they need to have everything planned to detail.

While I don't personally intend to be rude, I am getting frustrated. However, I leave it at this. I know you guys hate that I repeat myself, as do I. You do have an ignore function to filter me out. I will never know that you've used it if you choose to.

But I also respect the fact that there's always new posters coming in with the same questions essentially. I'll re-hash as much as they require.

I won't be coming back to respond unless it's to OP.

 

[labqi]

Supposedly half the final years from USyd have yet to secure an internship. This is still after the JDTP has allocated their positions.

 

[Elina10]

Supposedly half the final years from USyd have yet to secure an internship. This is still after the JDTP has allocated their positions.

Ummm.... I've chosen to go to USyd but now I'm worried...

 

[pitman]

I'm highly skeptical of that claim, given that until this year there have been virtually no issues with eventually getting internship, and the fact that nationally, class sizes plateaued a few years ago. Where did you you hear this?