UVM or MCW, which would you choose?

[altaskier]

Which school would you guys/gals choose and why?

UVM
MCW

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[Badgerbabe]

I can't speak to UVM, but I am going to MCW because the great faculty and staff, the atmosphere of the students is very helpful and cooperative, the facilities are outstanding, the location is decent, and if I want to specialize in neonatology (my latest idea), Children's would be a great place to get exposure during rotations.
Also, I just got a really great vibe from it while I was there, which has helped me in big decision-making in the past. I can see myself being there, and being very happy. Same thing happened when I toured my undergrad school, and I was right, its been a great four years!

Shannon

 

[D-]

UVM all the way dude

 

[Oski]

Definitely UVM...especially if you are the Altaholic that you claim to be.

 

[altaskier]

Yeh.....but skiing on the east coast is way way different. Stowe is not Alta, not in the longest shot! But then again, at least it is skiing. Gotta think this one out.

 

[altaskier]

But for all you that said UVM, why?

 

[Barton]

I chose MCW over UVM because they accepted me, and UVM did not. Burlington seems like a cool town, the university is nice, and I think I would have liked it there. Milwaukee is kind of a hole, but the school is respectable. UVM seems to be more focused on producing primary care docs for rural VT. MCW gets buttloads of research money, and sees a huge patient population (compared to Burlington). There is no "actual" skiing near Milwaukee (don't even try the local "mountains"; you'll just get depressed). For weekend getaways, Indian Head in UP Michigan is the best skiing around (that's not saying much). MCW has no undergrad campus (downer), and UVM does. There's probably more to do in Milwaukee than in Burlington. Of course, lots of coast folk can't stand the midwest anyway, so if you feel that way, go UVM for sure. Chicago's 3 hrs. away, and Madison (my alma mater, 1 hr. west) is a great town with lots of young dudes to hang with. I think my personal presence at MCW should be factored in, as I rule.

 

[moo]

I was accepted to MCW, but heard nothing from UVM. I would likely have picked MCW... for one, tuition is way cheaper for out of staters (UVM is something like 34k a year, MCW is like 29k). Second, UVM's primary mission is to train rural docs, and I really have no interest in practicing in rural areas. So I guess it really depends on you, the person, as to where you would like to go.

 

[GemPrincess]

Just a correction, Barton....Chicago is only an hour away!

 

[altaskier]

Yeh...I kept thinking it couldn't be 3 hours to Chicago. I think it's 1.5 hours.

 

[quaileggs]

I don't know about MCW but have you guys seen UVM's matchlist? It is pretty awesome. Like someone matched in Ortho at UCSF, there were also Mass General, Yale, Hopkins matches and on and on. The official mission may be to train "rural docs" but it looks as though UVM graduates are in no way restricting themselves to that sort of lifestyle.My husband is encouraging me to go to UVM over my cheap state schools because of the impressiveness of the match list (plus he is sick of living in the Midwest!) I don't know. I go round and round in circles. Decisions decisions.......

 

[altaskier]

Where did u see the match results for UVM?

 

[altaskier]

There was only one aspect of UVM's education that I didn't feel would fit me: the fact that you have 1.5 years of basic science and take your boards at the end of your third year (as opposed to the traditional way where you have 2 years of basic science and take the boards at the end of your 2 year). I thought that this non-convential way of doing it wouldn't fit me. But then again, they match well, which means they must be doing very well on the board exams. What did you think about this part of their curriculum?

 

[quaileggs]

I have an Adobe Acrobat document with the class of 2001 match list. If anyone could tell me how to send or post an Acrobat file I would gladly share it.

 

[altaskier]

Can you attach to an email message? I think that Adobe documents should be under "My documents". And I think you can attach them to email messages.
I'd appreciate if you could email it to me.

[email protected]

 

[jrazz]

Definitely UVM. The only discouraging thing about the school is the out of state tuition. Unless I get into my state school (Cheaper!!!) I'll be moving to Burlington!!!

Altaskier: Have you received anything from the school since the "provisional" offer of acceptance? I'm just wondering when we can expect to hear from them again.

 

[altaskier]

Nope, haven't heard anything since the acceptance. I called them and they said that everything of mine was underway. So.....I think the next thing we'll get is some financial aid stuff later on. Post if you recieve anything from them.

 

[altaskier]

Can anyone give me more concrete reasons to pick a school? I think it is coming down to these two schools and I really gotta pick. I'll list what I think are the pros/cons of each school for me.

UVM Pro's

1) Small class size of 92
2) P/F grading (correct me if I'm wrong on this)
3) Higher rank than MCW
4) good location b/c I'm a skier

UVM Con's

1) Out of state tution
2) Their curriculum - the fact that you have 1.5 years of basic science, 1.5 years of clinical, and then you take step 1 of the boards.

MCW Pros

1) Nice facilities
2) People seemed really happy

MCW Cons

1) Big class size
2) Grading system, which basically is A,B,C,D. But it is diguised as Honors, High Pass, Pass, Marginal Pass, etc

What the heck do I do? I mean the curriculum thing at UVM really kills me. KILLS ME!

Help people

 

[Smurfette]

I don't know anything about UVM...but quite a bit about MCW (being from WI and all...).

Just for your information/consideration:

Chicago is ~2 hours away from Milwaukee considering moderately heavy traffic. Milwaukee is an OK place--big enough to have everything but somehow keeps a small town feel to it when compared to some other big cities. Milwaukee is also a cheap place to live (especially compared to the east coast!)

MCW has had 100% of its students pass step I of the boards for several years running (making it one of only a handful of schools each year...and possibly one of only 2-3 to do this consistently year after year). Obviously, they're preparing their students WELL.

If you want their Match list, call the admissions office and ask them to send it to you. (well, wait a week or two to get the 'new' one) They faxed me a copy last year when I called.

MCW does have great facilities (I'm jealous)

Skiing in Wisconsin is lousy unless you go WAY up north, where they get more snow (and colder weather). ;-)

Good luck deciding!

 

[jrazz]

Hey Altaskier:

I think if you really look at your list, you have already made your decision. I do agree that money should be a factor in making your decision, but not the biggest factor. By the way, what is the difference in price between UVM and MCW? I think someone posted earlier said around 5K. I don't think that is enough of a difference to base the decision on $ (just my opinion). The difference between my state school and UVM is about 30K/year. That is why I will go to my state school if I get accepted. To be honest though, I would rather go to UVM. It's weird, but I just got this "feeling" when I was there, that it would be a great place to be to study and live. I felt comfortable. Not to mention how awesome the office staff is. They have been so helpful throughout the whole process. Don't worry about the curriculum. A lot of physicians that I work with either went to UVM or know someone who has - and everyone has great things to say about the school. I think the match list speaks for itself in that some great residencies were obtained. Well, I just realized that I am starting to sound like I work there or something - I just really liked the school!!! Good luck in your decision and I will post when I hear from them.

Good luck - and maybe I'll see you in class!!!!

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Hey altaskier,

Sice you wrote that Vermont is ranked higher, I just wanted to point out that MCW is ranked higher than Vermont on the US News list (not that this should be your only criterion). In fact, on the top 50 for research, MCW is on the list (tied for #50 but moving up) whereas Vermont is not. On the primary care list, Vermont is tied for 32 and MCW is tied for 41, with only one rank in between them (there are a lot of tied schools).

Vermont does seem to be a very primary care oriented school, wheras MCW has become more and more research oriented recently. The reputation of MCW is excellent in the midwest, and good on the east coast.

All of that being said, if you plan on doing residency and practicing in the northeast, you might have a slight edge with Vermont due to the familiarity of east coast PDs with the school. Many places I interviewed at for residency in New York and Philadelphia did not know much about MCW.

Its a hard choice, and you seem to be weighing a lot of factors. Good luck.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Almost forgot, decent skiing is about a 7 hour drive from MCW in northern Wisconsing / Upper penninsula of Michigan. The skiing is OK up there but not on par with Colorodo or Utah (sorry, I don't know about eastern ski areas).

And Milwaukee is actually a much more fun and modern town than I gave it credit for when I first moved here. There are a lot of great restaurants and bars, great music and festivals, and a beautiful Lake Michigan Shoreline. You can only go to the beach in a bathing suit about 2 months a year but it is great for jogging, biking, rollerblading for 7-8 months a year.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

I just read one of our school publications that the amount of research funding increased from upper 40 million range last year to 66 million, which is the second fastest rise among all medical schools. This number moves it above several med schools ranked above it on the US news list and they will likely be ranked even higher next year. I know this is not a big deal to medical students, but in my opinion this shows a great dedication to academic medicine, which includes research and education.

 

[altaskier]

I'm stuck here.......stuck between these two schools. BTW....thanks to everyone who's responded. Any other ideas? Whatever comes across your head, just write it down.

"And after they've given you their all, some stagger and fall, after all, it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall" - Roger Waters.

 

[operadoc]

Go to UVM. It is an awesome, laidback place to be. I have a few friends who go there and they love the pass/fail system as well as the general attitude of the students. UVM is my state school and I am going there in 2002 and I really wouldn't want to go anywhere else. Burlington is a great place to live and the people are friendly. You will get a great education at UVM.

 

[altaskier]

Operadoc......can you ask your friends what they think about the fact that you take your boards after your third year, after you've also had 1.5 years of clinical experience (instead of the traditional way of taking it right after 2 years of basic science)? I just kind of wanna see the general consensus around that.

Thanks

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

A couple other things to consider.

First, the majority of students at MCW are very laid back with a maybe 10-15 gunners in a class of 200. As for the large class size, I don't think it was a problem. You can still get individual attention from professors. As for comraderie, you generally find a group of like minded people to hang out with, study with, go out with, etc. I have a group of 10-15 friends who I do things with all the time. Its easy to avoid the few annoying people.

I think a pass / fail system may actually hurt you at a school like Vermont, which is not considered a top 30 school. If you decide to go into a competitive field, they will have your board scores only to decide. Many residency interviewers have commented on my Honors grade in certain subjects and they would probably like to see these on a transcript from Vermont.

Just my opinions. Good luck.

 

[altaskier]

Whisker Barrel Cortex...do you go to MCW?

 

[altaskier]

BTW...Vermont has Pass/Fail/Honors.
So you can honor.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Yeah, I do (for the next 63 days at least, whoopee I'm graduating).

It's good they have Honors. That would mean the only difference in the grading system is High Pass and Low pass. In most classes, from what I have seen, people get high pass or pass and this doesn't really add to the competitiveness. The only grade that can be competitive is Honors. Very few people get low pass. This grade is just so they don't fail. If you get two low passes you get a meeting with the student affairs office and offers of assistance. Again, very few people did this.

 

[operadoc]

Actually, The 1.5 years are supposed to be to the students atvantage. I heard that if you take the boards after you have done a few rotations, you do better on the boards. Also, at UVM you get hands on experience with patients after 6 months and this will only help you with your first year of residency. UVM may not be a top 30 school, but it is ranked 32 by US news and apparently has a great reputation. I volunteer at the hospital and I have spoken with many visiting med students and they're always telling me that UVM is an excellent school. Oh, by the way, I received the formal acceptance to UVM yesturday and I was conditionally accepted in december, so your letter should be coming.

 

[altaskier]

Alright, I'll keep a look out for the acceptance. Hmm......I guess I still need to think. This is just too hard of a squeeze to be in right now.

 

[quaileggs]

altaskier- I can relate to how you are feeling--choosing among different schools. I have some days where I tie myself up in knots over this. Just remember though that this is a wonderful and rarified problem to have. And we have 2 more months before we have to decide! My mantra right now is "I will make the right decision when the time comes to make a decision." But I don't think I've ever had to make such a momentous decision before in my life. A fork in the road, 3 different paths I could choose, all of which would most likely be satisfying in their own way. Take your time with this decision. You have earned the right through your hard work to take your time. Take care, there are many in your same situation!

 

[altaskier]

Believe me, I know that I'm fortunate to have such a decision to make. But I know what you mean, I don't know what to do. I kind of figure it like you do. I try not to worry about it too much, thinking that when the time comes to make the decision, I will know. As if some kind of devine intervention will occur or something. Procrastinating to the max. But the truth of the matter is that I really have no idea right now where to go. NO IDEA! That is why I'm trying to see what everyone else says.

 

[quaileggs]

I keep telling my husband that at some point it is essential for me to decide just what criteria are the most important to me. Because I can shuffle my 3 schools in different ways using different criteria to make each the top choice or each the bottom choice. What is most important? Cost? Ranking? Match list? Curriculum? Convenience? Percieved warmth and friendliness of the place?
I think when I decide what things are really the most important, that will help me arrive at my answer. Or so my theory goes... Altaskier do you know what is most important to you? (At least you are guaranteed to be living somewhere cold. Brrr! To leave warm and sunny CA!)

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

If I were trying to decide between schools I would not place much emphasis on their match list except if there was a very large discrepancy. Most of the criteria for matching to a good residency is based on your personal performance, not on the school you attend. Unless the school has an amazing match list (Harvard, Duke, etc) or a poor one, I wouldn't put much stake in them. Especially since most premeds know little about what programs are respected in each field.

 

[altaskier]

Quaileggs....I think what is most important for me is ulitmately where I will be the happiest. Since I'd be content at both MCW and UVM, I then have to look at different criteria. For example, I would like to go to a med school that has an undergraduate campus, so that I don't lose that collegial atmosphere. Also, the surrounding enviro is important. I liked the neighborhood MCW was in more than UVM. What there is to do nearby is also important. UVM has skiing, which is a plus. Weather wise, I think they are roughly the same, give or take. Since I live in California and I'd look to come back, the success of each school matching back to Cali is probably the most important thing for me. The quality of people at the school (Faculty, staff, students) also matters, but the people at MCW and UVM both were extremely friendly and open. I'm gonna sit on this and think some more and then I'll post a concrete/more organized list for you of what is important to me.

 

[altaskier]

Got the formal acceptance to UVM today.

 

[operadoc]

Yay! I told you you would get it soon. It really is a great place.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Altaskier,

It sounds like you would be happy at either of these great schools. If you have any specific questions about MCW or Milwaukee, please feel free to PM me or post them.

 

[altaskier]

Operadoc, did you get around to asking your med school buds about the complications or worries of taking the first step of the boards 1.5 years after you last basic science class?

 

[operadoc]

Altaskier, the people I spoke with really had no concerns about the 1.5 versus the two year basic science portion. Apparently, when you take the step 1 in the third year, you will have already had a rotations in a few specialities and these somehow help with the step one. I have heard that there are other schools that do the same thing and people tend to score higher on the step 1 because they have experienced and read for some of the crucial rotations. I hope this helps you.

 

[altaskier]

Thanks

 

[kd]

I'm not a student at either school, but I did apply to both last year. You mentioned that you'd like to get back to California- I suspect you'd be in good company at MCW. I recall that approximately 25% of MCW's students- i.e., half of all the out-of-staters- are from California. Also, I have the impression that MCW has a slightly better national reputation than UVM- in part likely because it's a larger school with more alumni, more research facilities, etc.
As far as your concern about UVM's 1.5 years of basic science, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Step 1 is now more clinical than ever and UVM students will quite likely have an advantage over students in more traditional curricula. I'm at a school with a traditional curriculum and I can tell you from my own experience with shelf exams that they are VERY heavily based on clinical vignettes. Anyway, most of the stuff tested on Step 1 is path, pathophys, and pharm, which are all things that you'll get lots of exposure to during your 1.5 years of rotations. There is comparatively little anatomy or other first-year material on Step 1. I wouldn't let that factor influence your decision too much.
A final consideration is cost of living, which is utterly outrageous in Burlington. It's tough to find housing and the prices are through the roof. That's surely part of the reason for the high debt load carried by UVM grads. Housing near MCW is much more reasonable and relatively easy to find.
With all that said: I absolutely LOVED Burlington. I loved the lake, the mountains, the skiing, the cool little shops downtown...it seemed like an absolutely fabulous place to live for an outdoorsy granola type like myself. Matter of fact, I plan to apply there for residency. Though MCW is in a nice suburban neighborhood, it's still Milwaukee, which IMHO doesn't hold a candle to Burlington.
Good luck with your decision- sounds like you can't lose either way!

 

[altaskier]

Got some stats for all interested (from US World News)

MCW

50 - Research
42- Primary Care

UVM

N/A - Research
31- Primary Care

 

[altaskier]

Whiskey Barrel Cortex....one more question for ya.....when do you get your clinical experience at MCW?

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

You have a mentor experience in 1st and 2nd year when you are assigned to a FP, internal med, or peds doctor (you can state a preference of which one). You have to tag along with that doc at least 8 times during the year. Most people do more. Some mentors let you do a lot, some don't. Its quite variable. You continue with this same person (you can change mentors at any time if you want) for all of second year.

Then, starting in second year, you learn different aspects of the clinical exam every couple of weeks throughout the year. In second semester of second year (I think around March), you go to a clinical site once a week to practice history and physicals.

The full time clinical years start in July, the beginning of 3rd year. Most people take boards in early June (finals are over in mid May). Hope this helps. Sorry I didn't reply to your PM, but I didn't really have any answers for you.

Honestly, it sounds like you'd rather go to Vermont but are hesitant because of the 1.5 / 1.5 then USMLE thing. I don't think this will hurt you in any way and you will likely do well on Step I because it is very clinical now.

Good luck. I think you will be happy at either place. Our training here has been excellent and I am happy I came here.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

About the USNEWS ranking: MCW will almost certainly move up in the research category because our NIH funding increased from upper $40 million last year to $66 million this year. This is likely due to the great research we have been able to get because of our new (2 years old) research facilities.

 

[altaskier]

Thanks for your input Wiskey Barrel Cortex. To be quite honest with you, I am (and was always) considering MCW over UVM. I'm just trying to rule UVM out. The most important factor for me is the opportunity to match back in California. I was also going to ask you how MCW does in matching back to Cali? Since a lot of your classmates are probably from California, were they successful in matching back to California in competitive residency programs? Also, what did you guys do for fun in Milwaukee? Just curious. I know bars are a big thing. The night of my interview we went to Leff's Bar.

Thanks again.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

I was also going to ask you how MCW does in matching back to Cali? Since a lot of your classmates are probably from California, were they successful in matching back to California in competitive residency programs?

I can't give you an answer on this one until Thursday when match results are released. From what I remember of last years rank list there were a decent number of people matching into california programs, but I don't remember details. Unfortunately, Cali programs are harder to match into in general, so there are probably a few that couldn't get back for residency.

Also, what did you guys do for fun in Milwaukee?
Bars are definitely big here, way more than they were in Cali. There are a lot of people that go mountain biking in nearby Kettlemarane (sp?) reserve, which is pretty nice from what I have heard. There are music festivals near the lake every weekend in the summer and a Jazz festival in the park every Thursday in summer / fall. We have an active Wilderness Medicine Club which goes on hikes and camping trips. I know people that go to the theater, symphony, etc. A couple of my friends often go to an indoor rock climbing gym. So there are many things to do. Not as many as in Socal, but enough to keep you busy. You can even go to the beach near Lake Michigan for a couple months in summer.

Hope that answers your questions.