'UW says its doctors in training want too much money'

[W19]

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...-its-doctors-in-training-want-too-much-money/

I thought they were federal laws that prohibit physicians to unionize...

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[aim-agm]

I thought they were federal laws that prohibit physicians to unionize...

I think you may be mistaken. What appears to be a good article on the subject: http://blog.medicaljustice.com/can-doctors-form-a-union/

 

[IslandStyle808]

If they are salaried employees (should not hold managerial positions), they can unionize. This also includes residents.

 

[MatCauthon]

Free parking? I am sure all the other hospital employees won't like that. Seattle parking is like $20 per day

 

[WingedOx]

Free parking? I am sure all the other hospital employees won't like that. Seattle parking is like $20 per day

Ironically enough the hospital I worked at in residency agreed to pay for resident parking immediately after I graduated. The problem was that while we weren't officially unionized, just about every other non-physician in the hospital was, and the contracts with said unions had a stipulation that the hospital couldn't use parking as an employment incentive to prevent compensation deficiencies for people who used transit.

So instead everyone just got an additional 87 dollars added to their paychecks every month.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

I don't think the residents have much leverage here, they need a residency in order to practice. The main question is could the hospital replace the residents if they refused to work? Could they just callup some IMGs and say " Hey we have spots open"

 

[AlmostAnMD]

I thought this was about Uworld

rofl

 

[WingedOx]

I have little doubt that a number of UW residents are going to be noticing a slow but steady drip of cold water falling on their idealism, especially given some of the things I've seen written by their residents. I understand "negotiate for x in the hope of getting y" but when they're asking to be paid PA salaries, they're going to be laughed out of the room.

 

[J ROD]

I thought the same thing. Wow uworld is taking over lol

 

[psychMDhopefully]

I have little doubt that a number of UW residents are going to be noticing a slow but steady drip of cold water falling on their idealism, especially given some of the things I've seen written by their residents. I understand "negotiate for x in the hope of getting y" but when they're asking to be paid PA salaries, they're going to be laughed out of the room.

They asked to be paid what the lowest salaried PAs make which is about 80k probably, and that's what residents should be paid nowadays, you can actually start a life making that much.

 

[WingedOx]

They asked to be paid what the lowest salaried PAs make which is about 80k probably, and that's what residents should be paid nowadays, you can actually start a life making that much.

My guess was that the bottom would be around 90k, but that's purely a guess on my part.

The problem is even programs like UMich with similar resident unions aren't exactly showering their residents in cash either, and while Ann Arbor doesn't exactly have Seattle's COL, it's not particularly cheap either. http://www.med.umich.edu/intmed/med-peds/Resident Life/programbenefits.html

 

[Psai]

I don't think the residents have much leverage here, they need a residency in order to practice. The main question is could the hospital replace the residents if they refused to work? Could they just callup some IMGs and say " Hey we have spots open"

So the solution is bring in a bunch of people that no one wanted who are unfamiliar with the system into a decently well known place. What do you think that will do to the reputation that they have worked so hard to maintain? No halfway decent student would want to train at a place that fired their residents.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

My guess was that the bottom would be around 90k, but that's purely a guess on my part.

The problem is even programs like UMich with similar resident unions aren't exactly showering their residents in cash either, and while Ann Arbor doesn't exactly have Seattle's COL, it's not particularly cheap either. http://www.med.umich.edu/intmed/med-peds/ResUITident Life/programbenefits.html

Their pgy 7's get paid 70k, which is decent I guess. Funny how UTSW start of at 57k, pgy1 ends at 70k pgy7 Mich starts at 51k pgy1, ends at 70k pgy 7

 

[235009]

There's another thread in the residency forum about this and someone posted a job listing for a PA job there which shows that it's 80k/yr starting. If the UW residents are asking that the pay scale start at 80k for pgy-1 or that every pgy year gets paid 80k then they're out of their mind. That would make them by far the highest paid residency in the country. I get it that Seattle is expensive but there are many more expensive places. I'm all for the residents wanting to unionize but you have to do things in a tactful manner. I'm confused as to why they didn't join an existing resident union instead of starting their own. No established union in their right mind would ask for 80k + perks. This goes to show why the UW side shut down the negotiations. If your demands are far out of line with the reality of every other residency program, even those that are unionized, then it's hard for them to take you seriously.

 

[WingedOx]

There's another thread in the residency forum about this and someone posted a job listing for a PA job there which shows that it's 80k/yr starting. If the UW residents are asking that the pay scale start at 80k for pgy-1 or that every pgy year gets paid 80k then they're out of their mind. That would make them by far the highest paid residency in the country. I get it that Seattle is expensive but there are many more expensive places. I'm all for the residents wanting to unionize but you have to do things in a tactful manner. I'm confused as to why they didn't join an existing resident union instead of starting their own. No established union in their right mind would ask for 80k + perks. This goes to show why the UW side shut down the negotiations. If your demands are far out of line with the reality of every other residency program, even those that are unionized, then it's hard for them to take you seriously.

have a link to the thread? I was trying to find it earlier this morning.

 

[Donald Juan]

I don't know why so many are acting like they are insane to say that residents working 80 hours a week are worth as much as PAs working 40 hours a week. I know that there is a standard clearly laid down across the country about what residents "should" be paid, but that doesn't mean it should be beyond questioning.

Edit: also, keep in mind, this is in a city with a current minimum wage of $13 (that is only going up). There are literally residents there making less than everyone else in the hospital right now.

 

[Long Way to Go]

have a link to the thread? I was trying to find it earlier this morning.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ington-resident-contract-negotiations.1176496

 

[Screwtape]

I don't know why so many are acting like they are insane to say that residents working 80 hours a week are worth as much as PAs working 40 hours a week. I know that there is a standard clearly laid down across the country about what residents "should" be paid, but that doesn't mean it should be beyond questioning.

Edit: also, keep in mind, this is in a city with a current minimum wage of $13 (that is only going up). There are literally residents there making less than everyone else in the hospital right now.

Less than per hour rate, sure, but definitely not less than everyone per year. That is an important distinction to make. The pay they are receiving is absolutely livable (minus a few extreme situations).

 

[WingedOx]

Less than per hour rate, sure, but definitely not less than everyone per year. That is an important distinction to make. The pay they are receiving is absolutely livable (minus a few extreme situations).

Yeah, I remember when I found out how little the desk staff in my clinic was making... ugh.

 

[Stagg737]

Less than per hour rate, sure, but definitely not less than everyone per year. That is an important distinction to make. The pay they are receiving is absolutely livable (minus a few extreme situations).

Then why not let those hourly earners work the 60-80 hours that residents do and put in the work to earn the livable wage residents do? I'm sure most of those people also don't have a fraction of the student loans that many residents have. (yes, I realize why that doesn't actually happen, just making the point that residents are putting in far more time and work to earn that livable wage than the hourly workers referred to).

 

[WingedOx]

Then why not let those hourly earners work the 60-80 hours that residents do and put in the work to earn the livable wage residents do? I'm sure most of those people also don't have a fraction of the student loans that many residents have. (yes, I realize why that doesn't actually happen, just making the point that residents are putting in far more time and work to earn that livable wage than the hourly workers referred to).

you act like many of them don't work multiple jobs.

 

[Stagg737]

you act like many of them don't work multiple jobs.

I wasn't trying to infer that. Given what docs make after residency and the fact that residency is still training I don't have an issue with the salaries. At a minimum wage of 13/hr though, working 60 hour weeks brings in 39k/year, which is pretty livable in most places, at least for individuals (or even couples).

 

[235009]

I wasn't trying to infer that. Given what docs make after residency and the fact that residency is still training I don't have an issue with the salaries. At a minimum wage of 13/hr though, working 60 hour weeks brings in 39k/year, which is pretty livable in most places, at least for individuals (or even couples).

So by your calculation an 80 hour week would net 52k/yr. The PGY-1 salary at UW is $53,268. That's not accounting for 3-4 wks of paid vacation, protected educational time, the 10/day food allowance they get, health insurance ...all of which you wouldn't get at a job where you're an hourly worker.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for the residents unionizing, I'm at a unionized program myself. The way they're going about it is completely wrong on multiple levels though.

EDIT: had last year's number

 

[PL198]

So by your calculation an 80 hour week would net 52k/yr. The PGY-1 salary at UW is $53,268. That's not accounting for 3-4 wks of paid vacation, protected educational time, the 10/day food allowance they get, health insurance ...all of which you wouldn't get at a job where you're an hourly worker.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for the residents unionizing, I'm at a unionized program myself. The way they're going about it is completely wrong on multiple levels though.

EDIT: had last year's number

ok so you factor that all in and they end up getting paid 18 dollars effectively an hour or something similar. is that enough? I know undergrad interns who make double that. UNDERGRAD INTERNS

 

[Screwtape]

ok so you factor that all in and they end up getting paid 18 dollars effectively an hour or something similar. is that enough? I know undergrad interns who make double that. UNDERGRAD INTERNS

Is this going to turn into what jobs are over/underpaid? Comparing the pay of a resident in training to any other job is comparing apples to oranges, because there really isn't anything else like it.

 

[PL198]

Is this going to turn into what jobs are over/underpaid? Comparing the pay of a resident in training to any other job is comparing apples to oranges, because there really isn't anything else like it.

it's comparing it to undergrads in training, which is a much more valid comparison than to a full employee in X industry.

the highest level of education those people possess is a high school diploma and they make low-mid 30s an hour, but someone goes through medical school and is actually treating patients and they get paid almost half what the undergrad kid makes? that's the definition of insane. yes I get that doctors make a lot of money when they graduate, but it's a *****ic system how it's currently structured where a 20 yr old kid with no education makes double the hourly rate of joe schmo MD who is in training.

 

[DrBowtie]

Not sure why the residents are so mad. UW didn't make them put their program on their rank list. The salaries and benefits are transparent.

Not taking finances into account in an expensive city is only their own fault.

 

[Mjolner]

I feel like this is nuts. I get being a resident will suck. BUT THAT'S WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR. If UW had said they were doing one thing and then did another, I'd feel for the residents. But we all knew Med school would be hard. We all new residency would be hard. We all new we'd be poor for a long time. Now that it's happening people want to complain about it? That's silly to me. Buckle down and get it done. Residency and fellowship can only last so long.

 

[MatCauthon]

ok so you factor that all in and they end up getting paid 18 dollars effectively an hour or something similar. is that enough? I know undergrad interns who make double that. UNDERGRAD INTERNS

You know Undergrad interns that are making $36 an hour? Please enlighten me on what interns receive this amount of money? I have never heard of that before. That is the equivalent of a 75,000/year salary which very few people make.

 

[Stagg737]

You know Undergrad interns that are making $36 an hour? Please enlighten me on what interns receive this amount of money? I have never heard of that before. That is the equivalent of a 75,000/year salary which very few people make.

I'd like to know that too. I know people with master's or even PhDs that had to find jobs that paid less than 40k/year. None of the schools I went to even paid their interns or student assistants, and more than one of them had pretty generously funded research...

 

[PL198]

You know Undergrad interns that are making $36 an hour? Please enlighten me on what interns receive this amount of money? I have never heard of that before. That is the equivalent of a 75,000/year salary which very few people make.

yes I do. computer science.

http://observer.com/2014/12/the-master-list-of-tech-internship-salaries-revealed/

 

[PL198]

I'd like to know that too. I know people with master's or even PhDs that had to find jobs that paid less than 40k/year. None of the schools I went to even paid their interns or student assistants, and more than one of them had pretty generously funded research...

that's what happens when you pursue employable careers vs a PhD in underwater basket-weaving

 

[charmiedermie]

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...-its-doctors-in-training-want-too-much-money/

I thought they were federal laws that prohibit physicians to unionize...

A simple google search would have shown you there are medical resident unions. Good for the UW residents, but I am biased because I support unions. Another concern I think was about child care expenses for residents, hence the salary issue. I hope the resident union squeezes as much juice from the orange that they can.

 

[charmiedermie]

Free parking? I am sure all the other hospital employees won't like that. Seattle parking is like $20 per day

You could say that for anything then. So? 600 dollars a month is a lot for a resident who is going there to work. Tough noogies to UW.

 

[WingedOx]

A simple google search would have shown you there are medical resident unions. Good for the UW residents, but I am biased because I support unions. Another concern I think was about child care expenses for residents, hence the salary issue. I hope the resident union squeezes as much juice from the orange that they can.

my commie pinko leftist views are well-known, but "squeezing the orange" is going to look something like this:

UW resident union: We demand an increase in salary and benefits!
UW Hospital: Or you'll do what?
UW resident union: That's not important! We demand an increase in salary and benefits!
UW Hospital: Ummm yeah, Good luck with that.

 

[MatCauthon]

than anywhere

You could say that for anything then. So? 600 dollars a month is a lot for a resident who is going there to work. Tough noogies to UW.

Is parking a normal perk provided for residents in expensive metropolitan areas? I work at an academic hospital with expensive parking and a difficult commute. Parking costs are one of the most contentious issues we have. Many of the other unions are much stronger and more united than anything residents could ever hope to have. If they can't get free parking, I'm not sure how the residents could. Are the residents willing to strike and picket like the nurses do?

 

[charmiedermie]

Is parking a normal perk provided for residents in expensive metropolitan areas? I work at an academic hospital with expensive parking and a difficult commute. Parking costs are one of the most contentious issues we have. Many of the other unions are much stronger and more united than anything residents could ever hope to have. If they can't get free parking, I'm not sure how the residents could. Are the residents willing to strike and picket like the nurses do?

It's not just parking, read the article again.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well I mean that's the real problem here.

Residents may be able to unionize but they sure as hell cant/wont strike. So they don't have a ton of bargaining leverage.

Couple that with varying levels of engagement - the health system may have 1500 residents but how many of them are going to stand up and really fight this issue (to the point of potentially jeopardizing their own training)

They have bargaining leverage, but at great cost, and only if they're willing to sacrifice what could end up being a year of their life if things go sour.

 

[Mad Jack]

my commie pinko leftist views are well-known, but "squeezing the orange" is going to look something like this:

UW resident union: We demand an increase in salary and benefits!
UW Hospital: Or you'll do what?
UW resident union: That's not important! We demand an increase in salary and benefits!
UW Hospital: Ummm yeah, Good luck with that.

If they stood their ground, they could get somewhere. A hospital system losing 1,500 employees to a strike overnight would be literally catastrophic. There is no way in the world to replace that many residents in a short period of time. So... I guess the question to the residents is

Because if they push hard enough... Well, the hospital system literally can't afford to replace them all, but they might end up extending their training- it'd be a nightmare all around. Are they willing to live a nightmare based on principle and a small pile of cash?

I might do it for the lulz, but I'm nuts.

 

[chipwhitley]

If they stood their ground, they could get somewhere. A hospital system losing 1,500 employees to a strike overnight would be literally catastrophic. There is no way in the world to replace that many residents in a short period of time. So... I guess the question to the residents is

Because if they push hard enough... Well, the hospital system literally can't afford to replace them all, but they might end up extending their training- it'd be a nightmare all around. Are they willing to live a nightmare based on principle and a small pile of cash?

I might do it for the lulz, but I'm nuts.

Someone's gotta do it, or things never change. I applaud them for having the courage to at least try to make things better for the future.

 

[Mad Jack]

Someone's gotta do it, or things never change. I applaud them for having the courage to at least try to make things better for the future.

While I don't particularly believe residents to be ripped off entirely by the whole training process, I think they should have the right to fight for better wages and, if their employer can't handle firing them or replacing them, they should have some of their demands met. Residents should have some power, whereas now they often have none.

 

[2021Doctor]

Minimum wage in Seattle is slated to go to $15 per hour.
80 hours a week x $15/hour x 48 weeks is $57,600 per year.
I do not think it is too much to ask that residents at least get paid a little more per hour than the guy sitting in the booth taking payments at the parking garage.
Seattle is a darn expensive city to live in.

 

[chipwhitley]

While I don't particularly believe residents to be ripped off entirely by the whole training process, I think they should have the right to fight for better wages and, if their employer can't handle firing them or replacing them, they should have some of their demands met. Residents should have some power, whereas now they often have none.

I propose that we revamp medical school to provide all the training needed to function independently as a general practitioner, then leave residency as an option for those who wish to specialize further. That would give residents more power, since it wouldn't be something they had to do in order to get a job. Pretty much every other health profession can work right out of school, so no reason our school shouldn't provide us the same.

 

[WingedOx]

I propose that we revamp medical school to provide all the training needed to function independently as a general practitioner, then leave residency as an option for those who wish to specialize further. That would give residents more power, since it wouldn't be something they had to do in order to get a job. Pretty much every other health profession can work right out of school, so no reason our school shouldn't provide us the same.

ummm, unless you'd like to actually come up with an actual training calendar to go along with your proposal, you're basically asking for a pony.

 

[Stagg737]

Minimum wage in Seattle is slated to go to $15 per hour.
80 hours a week x $15/hour x 48 weeks is $57,600 per year.
I do not think it is too much to ask that residents at least get paid a little more per hour than the guy sitting in the booth taking payments at the parking garage.
Seattle is a darn expensive city to live in.

This. I agree with the people here thinking one should be able to support themselves on minimum wage. However, I've worked multiple minimum wage jobs, including fast food, back when minimum wage in my state was less than $6/hr. At no point did I think that the work I was doing was worth being paid more than that, and if someone had told me that I was making the same hourly wage as a resident I would have laughed at them.

 

[kilvinsky]

Minimum wage in Seattle is slated to go to $15 per hour.
80 hours a week x $15/hour x 48 weeks is $57,600 per year.
I do not think it is too much to ask that residents at least get paid a little more per hour than the guy sitting in the booth taking payments at the parking garage.
Seattle is a darn expensive city to live in.

This and many other comments fail to take into account overtime for hourly workers, which generally is time and a half for 40-60 hours per week and double time for anything greater than 60 hours per week. One can also get double time for holiday pay as well. One who works 80 hours per week at $15 per hour would make 82k per year. Yes, residents generally get paid less than minimum wage.

 

[2021Doctor]

This and many other comments fail to take into account overtime for hourly workers, which generally is time and a half for 40-60 hours per week and double time for anything greater than 60 hours per week. One can also get double time for holiday pay as well. One who works 80 hours per week at $15 per hour would make 82k per year. Yes, residents generally get paid less than minimum wage.

Good point.

 

[Mad Jack]

ummm, unless you'd like to actually come up with an actual training calendar to go along with your proposal, you're basically asking for a pony.

Actually, I've thought about this one before- if we made medical school a straight from high school thing like Europe, but 8 years long (with the last three years being residency and internship that qualified one in FM), people would finish in the same amount of time, have similar amounts of debt, and actually be qualified to practice medicine once they were done with school.

How did I get 8 years?

There are 6 year BS>MD programs that only require two years of undergrad study. There are 3 year MD programs that scrap basically all of fourth year. Combine these, and you've got a 5 year path. Tack 3 years of residency on the end that qualify you in a 3 year, primary care specialty and you've got an 8 year, straight through path that eases the primary care crisis, qualifies US grads for practice right out of school, and makes further GME optional. Then residency directors would have to provide an actual reason to attract US grads to their programs, when they could earn double six figure sums straight out of school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Minimum wage in Seattle is slated to go to $15 per hour.
80 hours a week x $15/hour x 48 weeks is $57,600 per year.
I do not think it is too much to ask that residents at least get paid a little more per hour than the guy sitting in the booth taking payments at the parking garage.
Seattle is a darn expensive city to live in.

Compare this to Honolulu which has a higher cost of living and the comparable residency programs pay them slightly less, Seattle residents actually have it better than they think.

http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/

 

[Mad Jack]

Compare this to Honolulu which has a higher cost of living and the comparable residency programs pay them slightly less, Seattle residents actually have it better than they think.

http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/

How bout those residents in San Francisco...