'UW says its doctors in training want too much money'

[IslandStyle808]

How bout those residents in San Francisco...

The cost of living in San Francisco is somewhat higher than Seattle. Surprisingly when I looked at UCSF's pediatric residency program's salary, they factor in housing as well.

https://pediatrics.ucsf.edu/medical-education/residency/resident-lifehttps://pediatrics.ucsf.edu/medical-education/residency/resident-life

I think it is okay that Seattle residents want to have a more competitive salary, but I don't believe they are getting screwed over.

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[psychMDhopefully]

I propose that we revamp medical school to provide all the training needed to function independently as a general practitioner, then leave residency as an option for those who wish to specialize further. That would give residents more power, since it wouldn't be something they had to do in order to get a job. Pretty much every other health profession can work right out of school, so no reason our school shouldn't provide us the same.

Yeah, accrediting bodies would never do that though, they need residents to get cheap labor. Its really interesting to research how American medicine became such a powerful institution that can't be challenged, Flexner inadvertently created a monster.

 

[oldanddone]

In this scenario of physicians unionizing, a couple points:the flexnerian paradigm of protecting medical practice is already dead with legislation regarding np, midwife, na, etc. Secondly, it's about time some unionization happens because so far employers have had all the advantages of hiring what used to be an autonomous profession in terms of long hours dedication to pt and taking personal liability and it's about time employers feel the heat. However I would like to see the possibility of independent practice and fee for service protected because ultimately that is what made medicine great. For practitioners but also for patient care.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I would be the first one to admit that Seattle is an expensive city and I'm sure that finding an apartment and child care at reasonable prices is an impossibility there. However, the salaries of UW residents are on Freida for the whole world to see. These residents should have known what they were in for when they applied and interviewed at UW. It would have taken them 15 minutes to scope out a budget and to see that training at UW was a financial nightmare. Why did they rank that place?

The salaries of PAs and NPs are irrelevant to the compensation of residents. It's hard to find PAs and NPs. It's easy to get residents to rank UW highly. It's the behaviors that matter in economics and not the egos of residents.

Finally, these residents have no leverage. They aren't going to strike. Everybody knows that. Furthermore, the University of Michigan has a residents' union and their salaries are the same as most academic institutions in the Midwest and Ann Arbor is not a cheap place to live.

 

[PL198]

I would be the first one to admit that Seattle is an expensive city and I'm sure that finding an apartment and child care at reasonable prices is an impossibility there. However, the salaries of UW residents are on Freida for the whole world to see. These residents should have known what they were in for when they applied and interviewed at UW. It would have taken them 15 minutes to scope out a budget and to see that training at UW was a financial nightmare. Why did they rank that place?

The salaries of PAs and NPs are irrelevant to the compensation of residents. It's hard to find PAs and NPs. It's easy to get residents to rank UW highly. It's the behaviors that matter in economics and not the egos of residents.

Finally, these residents have no leverage. They aren't going to strike. Everybody knows that. Furthermore, the University of Michigan has a residents' union and their salaries are the same as most academic institutions in the Midwest and Ann Arbor is not a cheap place to live.

they also get like a ~4K stipend on top of their salaries

 

[MatCauthon]

It's not just parking, read the article again.

Never said it was just about parking. I just bring this up because parking is an extremely contentious issue at metropolitan hospitals. It is almost as big of an issue as salary. It would probably be very difficult for these residents to get both increased pay and free parking unless they are willing to strike.

 

[WingedOx]

How bout those residents in San Francisco...

I mentioned this in another thread, but a friend of mine backed out of UCSF fellowship at nearly the last moment because he looked at housing and decided it just wasn't economically feasible. It's not out of the realm of possibility that programs such as UCSF could start to lose potential good applicants for spots because they see that the economics of living in a cheaper metro are far better for their families.

But the odds of UWashington getting to the point where they have to really care about that are pretty small. UW is insanely competitive for nearly all specialties because you not only do you have a huge number of people who want to live in the PNW (and for a many specialties, UW and OSHU are the only programs in the entire region), but also the whiny Californians who put in "at least it's closer to Cali than the east coast or midwest" applications.

Ultimately choosing to rank a program like UW is a choice with consequences (and given UW's competitiveness, people who match there typically aren't hurting for other options). Nothing is stopping you from getting an excellent medical training in Rochester or Pittsburgh.

 

[WingedOx]

Actually, I've thought about this one before- if we made medical school a straight from high school thing like Europe, but 8 years long (with the last three years being residency and internship that qualified one in FM), people would finish in the same amount of time, have similar amounts of debt, and actually be qualified to practice medicine once they were done with school.

How did I get 8 years?

There are 6 year BS>MD programs that only require two years of undergrad study. There are 3 year MD programs that scrap basically all of fourth year. Combine these, and you've got a 5 year path. Tack 3 years of residency on the end that qualify you in a 3 year, primary care specialty and you've got an 8 year, straight through path that eases the primary care crisis, qualifies US grads for practice right out of school, and makes further GME optional. Then residency directors would have to provide an actual reason to attract US grads to their programs, when they could earn double six figure sums straight out of school.

hmm, a suggestion where we select potential med students who aren't even out of high school?

yeah, I've made my feelings known more than a few times on that topic.

 

[Mad Jack]

hmm, a suggestion where we select potential med students who aren't even out of high school?

yeah, I've made my feelings known more than a few times on that topic.

You could select them after the first two years- take in a class of say, 300 kids, then weed them down to the 100 or so that deserve it in the pre-preclinical years (1 and 2, where they're doing BS basic sciences that would transfer to any other school or the parent institution of the medical school).

Hell, the vast majority of countries in the world select their medical students fresh out of high school, why shouldn't we?

 

[W19]

You could select them after the first two years- take in a class of say, 300 kids, then weed them down to the 100 or so that deserve it in the pre-preclinical years (1 and 2, where they're doing BS basic sciences that would transfer to any other school or the parent institution of the medical school).

Hell, the vast majority of countries in the world select their medical students fresh out of high school, why shouldn't we?

Or it can be a 2-year prereqs and 3-year med school and 3+ year residency with the GP option after intern year... NP/PA organizations would be against that because you are basically making these programs unattractive if people can become an MD/DO in 6 years.

I remember reading somewhere that DO schools were looking at a 5-year program (med school + residency) for PCP...

 

[Mad Jack]

Or it can be a 2-year prereqs and 3-year med school and 3+ year residency with the GP option after intern year... NP/PA organizations would be against that because you are basically making these programs unattractive if people can become an MD/DO in 6 years.

That would work as well. Just get rid of the bachelor's degree requirement to get into MD school after your prereqs, and award a combined MD/BS at the end of the five years. The big reason to include those last three years as a part of medical school, however, is that then the government would not be involved in GME- it would be a part of medical school education, which would necessitate renegotiation of things like how residencies are allocated, whether caps should be a thing, etc.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Hell, the vast majority of countries in the world select their medical students fresh out of high school, why shouldn't we?

Secondary education is this country is crap, and there is a huge spectrum of quality. The only people you would have going to med school if applicants were picked right out of high school would be the children of rich people who could afford to send their kids to good private schools, and medicine would be even more top heavy with the privileged than it is now. Starting med school after first 2 years of college and completing prereqs should be allowed to give people a chance to prove themselves.

 

[DokterMom]

I'm well aware that resident salaries are a great deal lower than those of newly-minted PAs, nationwide. But why should they be? Frankly, that seems to be a pretty reasonable benchmark...

 

[Wordead]

I propose that we revamp medical school to provide all the training needed to function independently as a general practitioner, then leave residency as an option for those who wish to specialize further. That would give residents more power, since it wouldn't be something they had to do in order to get a job. Pretty much every other health profession can work right out of school, so no reason our school shouldn't provide us the same.

No reason except patient health i guess

 

[2021Doctor]

I'm well aware that resident salaries are a great deal lower than those of newly-minted PAs, nationwide. But why should they be? Frankly, that seems to be a pretty reasonable benchmark...

Why should they be?

Well they are that way because the AAMC, ACGME, NRMP, and AHA got an antitrust exemption pushed through Congress. Therefore salaries are not determined in a free market.

In 2002, a group of three physicians led by Paul Jung, MD, a research fellow at the Johns Hopkins University, brought a class action suit on behalf of all current and former medical residents against a group of defendants that oversaw and participated in the match process and employed medical residents [2]. The size of the group of residents being represented by the suit was considerable, including all persons who had been employed as resident physicians since 1998 in programs that were accredited by the ACGME, as well as physicians in ACGME-accredited fellowships [1].

Those in the defendant class were categorized into two specific groups: “organizations and associations that participate[d] in the administration of graduate medical education in the United States” [3], e.g., the AAMC, NRMP, and ACGME, and “universities, medical schools, foundations, hospitals, health systems and medical centers that sponsor[ed] medical residency programs” [3].

Anticompetitive claims. The resident plaintiffs argued that the organizational and institutional defendants, through the match, had imposed anticompetitive restraints on medical residency placement and hiring by quashing the prospective residents’ ability to negotiate the terms of their employment contracts, resulting in fixed and depressed compensation packages [4]. The legal basis for the residents’ claim was that it violated Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act, which holds that “Every contract…or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal” [5]. The Sherman Act is one of three core federal antitrust laws that regulate commerce in the United States, but some violations of the act may not necessarily be deemed illegal if the parties involved in the suspect activity can demonstrate that the restraint on trade is reasonable
*
On April 8, 2004, Congress passed the Pension Funding Equity Act, and President George W. Bush signed it into law. The Section 207 amendment had two major legal effects. First, the provision confirmed that “it shall not be unlawful under the antitrust laws to sponsor, conduct, or participate in a graduate medical education residency matching program, or to agree to sponsor, conduct, or participate in such a program” [14]. Second, in relation to the first statement, the provision held that “evidence of any of the conduct described…shall not be admissible in Federal court to support any claim or action alleging a violation of antitrust laws”

http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2015/02/hlaw1-1502.html

 

[WingedOx]

You could select them after the first two years- take in a class of say, 300 kids, then weed them down to the 100 or so that deserve it in the pre-preclinical years (1 and 2, where they're doing BS basic sciences that would transfer to any other school or the parent institution of the medical school).

Hell, the vast majority of countries in the world select their medical students fresh out of high school, why shouldn't we?

Because as has been alluded to already, the last thing we need is medical school admissions becoming the parent-pressured disaster that elite college admissions have turned into in this country. We assumed some measure of adulthood when it comes to medical school admissions in this country, and you just can't say that about high school kids.

 

[Mad Jack]

Because as has been alluded to already, the last thing we need is medical school admissions becoming the parent-pressured disaster that elite college admissions have turned into in this country. We assumed some measure of adulthood when it comes to medical school admissions in this country, and you just can't say that about high school kids.

Fine, fine, two years of prereqs then apply. They can be almost babbies.

 

[WingedOx]

Fine, fine, two years of prereqs then apply. They can be almost babbies.

I'm also a proponent that we need more humanities in medicine, not less. There are enough Ben Carsons in the world.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm also a proponent that we need more humanities in medicine, not less. There are enough Ben Carsons in the world.

Humanities are overrated. If we want more humanities in medicine, select for the ones that are well read and compassionate on the intake to medical school. It shouldn't be our job to force students to take the humanities.

 

[WingedOx]

Humanities are overrated. If we want more humanities in medicine, select for the ones that are well read and compassionate on the intake to medical school. It shouldn't be our job to force students to take the humanities.

That's the thing. I don't think it's the job of med schools to teach humanities and they do a generally poor job anyway(there's only so many times you can force a student to read "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down"). But it's not unreasonable to ask that student enter with a strong background in them.

 

[Mad Jack]

But it's not unreasonable to ask that student enter with a strong background in them.

I don't think I've met many people that were legitimately changed by the BS courses they were required to take as the humanities requirements of the BS degree.

 

[TBV]

I don't think I've met many people that were legitimately changed by the BS courses they were required to take as the humanities requirements of the BS degree.

No nobody ever. I don't even pay attention I'm going to be the POS I am at the end of the day.

 

[WingedOx]

I'm under no illusion that my opinion would be popular. But I've seen too much idiocy from medical students on subjects related to medicine that aren't the hard sciences. ...and given the adjustment to new subject matter of the new MCAT, the schools sadly agree with me.

 

[WingedOx]

Now it's time for "Unpopular Opinion: Round II"

Why should they be?

Well they are that way because the AAMC, ACGME, NRMP, and AHA got an antitrust exemption pushed through Congress. Therefore salaries are not determined in a free market.

In 2002, a group of three physicians led by Paul Jung, MD, a research fellow at the Johns Hopkins University, brought a class action suit on behalf of all current and former medical residents against a group of defendants that oversaw and participated in the match process and employed medical residents [2]. The size of the group of residents being represented by the suit was considerable, including all persons who had been employed as resident physicians since 1998 in programs that were accredited by the ACGME, as well as physicians in ACGME-accredited fellowships [1].

Those in the defendant class were categorized into two specific groups: “organizations and associations that participate[d] in the administration of graduate medical education in the United States” [3], e.g., the AAMC, NRMP, and ACGME, and “universities, medical schools, foundations, hospitals, health systems and medical centers that sponsor[ed] medical residency programs” [3].

Anticompetitive claims. The resident plaintiffs argued that the organizational and institutional defendants, through the match, had imposed anticompetitive restraints on medical residency placement and hiring by quashing the prospective residents’ ability to negotiate the terms of their employment contracts, resulting in fixed and depressed compensation packages [4]. The legal basis for the residents’ claim was that it violated Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act, which holds that “Every contract…or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal” [5]. The Sherman Act is one of three core federal antitrust laws that regulate commerce in the United States, but some violations of the act may not necessarily be deemed illegal if the parties involved in the suspect activity can demonstrate that the restraint on trade is reasonable
*
On April 8, 2004, Congress passed the Pension Funding Equity Act, and President George W. Bush signed it into law. The Section 207 amendment had two major legal effects. First, the provision confirmed that “it shall not be unlawful under the antitrust laws to sponsor, conduct, or participate in a graduate medical education residency matching program, or to agree to sponsor, conduct, or participate in such a program” [14]. Second, in relation to the first statement, the provision held that “evidence of any of the conduct described…shall not be admissible in Federal court to support any claim or action alleging a violation of antitrust laws”

http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2015/02/hlaw1-1502.html

(sigh), The idea that it's collusion that's keeping resident salaries down and that eliminating antitrust exemptions and letting the "free market" decide salaries will be the panacea to resident economic problems comes up a lot on the allo board (as does other brilliant ideas like "elminate the NRMP").

It's a wonderful fantasy, but be careful what you wish for, because a place like UW has absolutely no incentive to increase resident compensation simply because they have so little competition. As I said above, in most specialties they're the only program for a 150 mile radius and one of only two programs within a 600+ mile radius, all while being in one of the most desirable areas of the country. They could offer LESS money than what they offer now and still have no shortage of very competitive applicants placing them first on the rank list.

 

[2021Doctor]

Now it's time for "Unpopular Opinion: Round II"


(sigh), The idea that it's collusion that's keeping resident salaries down and that eliminating antitrust exemptions and letting the "free market" decide salaries will be the panacea to resident economic problems comes up a lot on the allo board (as does other brilliant ideas like "elminate the NRMP").

It's a wonderful fantasy, but be careful what you wish for, because a place like UW has absolutely no incentive to increase resident compensation simply because they have so little competition. As I said above, in most specialties they're the only program for a 150 mile radius and one of only two programs within a 600+ mile radius, all while being in one of the most desirable areas of the country. They could offer LESS money than what they offer now and still have no shortage of very competitive applicants placing them first on the rank list.

Imagine what it would be like to go on ONE interview, sign a contract for a residency spot, and get ready to move JUST LIKE every other professional in the world can do. The match is a total perversion of the free market.
Ask any doctor who spent tons of money and time pursuing multiple interviews to try and match for residency and then went on to do ONE interview to obtain a non-match fellowship spot which process was better from the candidate's standpoint?

 

[Psai]

Imagine what it would be like to go on ONE interview, sign a contract for a residency spot, and get ready to move JUST LIKE every other professional in the world can do. The match is a total perversion of the free market.
Ask any doctor who spent tons of money and time pursuing multiple interviews to try and match for residency and then went on to do ONE interview to obtain a non-match fellowship spot which process was better from the candidate's standpoint?

Yeah except you want to live in Boston and go to Harvard, they didn't invite you to an interview yet but you interviewed at Yale with a 48 hour take it or leave it offer. The match is set up in a way that maximizes utility for both sides. As an applicant you can match to the best place that will take you without being subject to predatory practices. You choose where to apply and you decide how comfortable you are in applying to a certain number of places, following historical trends. And if that one place doesn't take you, you will still have to apply to another and another until you get somewhere that you like and find acceptable, just like every other professional

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The match was never intended to be an optimal solution for any one individual (either an individual applicant or individual program).

You can think of many examples where it is more cumbersome for an individual.

The purpose of the match is to create a stable solution that balances individual and societal needs (i.e. ensures that as many training slots get filled as possible, and that the trainees get the best spots possible).

Yeah, if you actually look at how the match works you can see its heavily weighted towards the applicants.

This stupid topic comes up every few months - where is an older attending who did this all pre-match who can better explain why the match is better than the alternative?

 

[WingedOx]

Yeah, if you actually look at how the match works you can see its heavily weighted towards the applicants.

This stupid topic comes up every few months - where is an older attending who did this all pre-match who can better explain why the match is better than the alternative?

Yeah, if @jkdoctor doesn't understand the difference between fellowships that go no match and competitive things like GI, I'm not sure there's hope for him/her. Much like what @Psai said, without the match, programs frequently held applicants by the balls, and in some cases "you have 48 hours to accept" is far longer than programs actually gave applicants.

 

[Dranger]

If we are going to argue a livable wage...

I have lived in Seattle most of my life and a 50-60K is EASILY livable. People grossly overestimate the cost here all of the time. UW medical center is located in North Seattle with quick access to most of the suburbs around the area which are immensely cheaper than living in the vibrant areas of Seattle proper (Newer apartments can be 800-900 a month for a 1 bedroom). You want to live in some modern condo/flat 5 min from the Space Needle, Queen Anne or Beltown? Then yeah you are going to cough up some cash.

The vast majority of hospital employees do not make what a resident makes and strikes/union stand stills are not all that common. Despite being "lowly" cooks, techs, nurses etc the employees are not in training status like residents. Because new physicians NEED a residency, there is absolutely no leverage potential here. Unless you are dead set in living in areas of yuppie North Seattle (Wallingford/Green Lake etc), the current salary compensation is adequate coupled with the fact that UW has an amazing residency reputation.

The $15 minimum wage fiasco is a frankly a joke. Most people in the area are honestly against as it has caused employers to lay off employees by the droves. The pilot town (Seatac) is an absolute s-hole that started the trend in the area has mixed ot negative results. The main reason it started in Seatac was because of the airport....

 

[medicineradman]

Glad to see this be an issue. All residency programs around the country should demand the same, equal pay to a physician assistant. The pay for ancillary staff in the hospital is absolutely ridiculous and it will hurt you once you are an attending too. Make no mistake that if you have 200k in debt, even if you have a 300k/yr job (not many will), you will struggle alot. The amount that taxes suck from high income earners will crush you. You will not save for retirement, you will be working until you are 70+. Equity stakes for physicians are going away. So I will say the most important thing you can learn before going into medicine. DO NOT GO INTO MEDICINE IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE A BIG LOAN. JUST DONT DO IT. You will thank me for this advice one day. This is an economic argument, but truthfully after 2 yrs of practicing, all that mumbo jumbo about how gratified you are, and how privileged you are to witness miracles goes out the window. That is med student mentality and will get you in trouble.

 

[PL198]

Glad to see this be an issue. All residency programs around the country should demand the same, equal pay to a physician assistant. The pay for ancillary staff in the hospital is absolutely ridiculous and it will hurt you once you are an attending too. Make no mistake that if you have 200k in debt, even if you have a 300k/yr job (not many will), you will struggle alot. The amount that taxes suck from high income earners will crush you. You will not save for retirement, you will be working until you are 70+. Equity stakes for physicians are going away. So I will say the most important thing you can learn before going into medicine. DO NOT GO INTO MEDICINE IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE A BIG LOAN. JUST DONT DO IT. You will thank me for this advice one day. This is an economic argument, but truthfully after 2 yrs of practicing, all that mumbo jumbo about how gratified you are, and how privileged you are to witness miracles goes out the window. That is med student mentality and will get you in trouble.

if you are making 300k a year and have 200k in student debt, but you have to work till 70+ to pay your stuff off and have a decent retirement, then your financial management skills are terrible

 

[W19]

...

 

[medicineradman]

if you are making 300k a year and have 200k in student debt, but you have to work till 70+ to pay your stuff off and have a decent retirement, then your financial management skills are terrible

Sounds like you have little idea how much it takes to retire.

 

[PL198]

Sounds like you have little idea how much it takes to retire.

ok pre-med. I wonder how all the people in the world who make less than 300k ever retire( like the majority of physicians even)

 

[Mjolner]

Sounds like I have little idea how much it takes to retire.

FIFY

 

[2021Doctor]

The idea posted by some here that hospitals and the AAMC pushed for an antitrust exemption for the match to benefit medical students is absolutely laughable.
The match benefits hospitals greatly by suppressing wages.

The suits at the hospitals care about $$$. They do not care about doctors or med students.
The clueless will learn that fact sooner or later.

Here is a seminal analysis from Stanford:
At the same time, for young doctors who have just completed four years of medical school, salaries are low, averaging around $40,000 per year, and compressed, and work hours are long, 80 hours a week in many programs. While salary differentials are only one way in which residency programs might compete, the compression of salaries within programs, within specialties, and across fields is remarkable, compared to the variation in pay among more senior doctors.
*
This paper has studied matching markets where firms compete by setting impersonal prices prior to matching. The firms’ inability to target their offers leads to greater profits, with the highest-quality firms benefiting the most. The implication is that wages are both reduced and compressed, with compression beyond the mild amount that occurs in all-pay competition among symmetric firms with the same expected distribution of quality.
See link for full discussion:
http://web.stanford.edu/~jdlevin/Papers/Matching.pdf

Amazing that so many here are more knowledgeable about economics than the professors at the Stanford Graduate School Of Business.

 

[DrBowtie]

As someone who went through the match for residency and non match for fellowship, I'd take the match 100/100 times.

 

[DrBowtie]

Wow. How are you ever going to be able to get a job as an attending physician? Are you saying we need an attending physician match too?

Maybe we should have a match for med school admissions too. How about a match for getting married?

Jobs have flexible start dates. They don't have artificial application periods.

 

[medicineradman]

In reference to "the suits don't care about doctors" above that is

100% right. It cant be understated enough that without any equity physicians are losing their footing, becoming laborers like any ancillary staff in the hospital and the suits want this to happen. I realize this is just an economic argument so for those that are entirely gratified by medicine this will not be a big deal. If you like to be fairly compensated for your expertise then you will not be happy. But medicine has alot of those fluffy narcissists who wont care.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Something that always seems to be forgotten in this is that your very competitive fields would drop resident salaries significantly given the chance. You think ortho or derm or ophtho are going to continue to offer 50k/year when they could cut that in half and still fill all their slots? Sure, FM and psych might offer more money but what's the incentive for ENT or urology to do so?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

In reference to "the suits don't care about doctors" above that is

100% right. It cant be understated enough that without any equity physicians are losing their footing, becoming laborers like any ancillary staff in the hospital and the suits want this to happen. I realize this is just an economic argument so for those that are entirely gratified by medicine this will not be a big deal. If you like to be fairly compensated for your expertise then you will not be happy. But medicine has alot of those fluffy narcissists who wont care.

The first half of this is spot on re: hospital admin.

But I'm sorry, if making potentially several hundred dollars an hour is not fair compensation for you then I think YOU may be the problem. Heck, we just had an EM doc in here talking about 300+/hr.

 

[2021Doctor]

How does the match determine salaries?

You're conflating a lot of unrelated ideas in your typical fashion. I await a dead soldiers analogy any minute now.

Your lack of understanding of economics is sad.
Please refer to the publication by the Stanford Business School professors.
Please enlighten us about any errors you find in their analysis.

 

[medicineradman]

The first half of this is spot on re: hospital admin.

But I'm sorry, if making potentially several hundred dollars an hour is not fair compensation for you then I think YOU may be the problem. Heck, we just had an EM doc in here talking about 300+/hr.

All I have to say is wait till you get there, because Im there and I see it and every specialist I speak with feels the same way. Salary means nothing, equity means everything.

 

[WingedOx]

All I have to say is wait till you get there, because Im there and I see it and every specialist I speak with feels the same way. Salary means nothing, equity means everything.

That's nice that pre-meds are telling attendings what they should think about their careers.

 

[DrBowtie]

Something that always seems to be forgotten in this is that your very competitive fields would drop resident salaries significantly given the chance. You think ortho or derm or ophtho are going to continue to offer 50k/year when they could cut that in half and still fill all their slots? Sure, FM and psych might offer more money but what's the incentive for ENT or urology to do so?

One of the top MSK radiology fellowships pays 10-20k depending on year.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

All I have to say is wait till you get there, because Im there and I see it and every specialist I speak with feels the same way. Salary means nothing, equity means everything.

I am there oh observant one - see that "Attending Physician" tag under my name?

Equity is only valuable IF you can make use of it. I know an OB/GYN and a psychiatrist who both are having a very hard time selling their practices. They have lots of equity, but can't do anything with it.

I'm not saying that owning your own practice (or a partnership) isn't potentially more lucrative - it is. But, if you can't save enough for retirement and an emergency/rainy day fund on $300/hr, then the problem isn't poor compensation.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

One of the top MSK radiology fellowships pays 10-20k depending on year.

I wanted to quote this just to make sure everyone sees what could happen if we rock the boat too much. I bet 50k/year looks pretty good to those fellows.

 

[IslandStyle808]

One of the top MSK radiology fellowships pays 10-20k depending on year.

Is this ACGME accredited!?

 

[DrBowtie]

Is this ACGME accredited!?

No. Only a few rads subspecialties are. They are expected to moonlight to make a living wage

 

[IslandStyle808]

No. Only a few rads subspecialties are. They are expected to moonlight to make a living wage

What are the reasons that people do these unaccredited programs (I'm sure you gain a lot of skills in a certain area)? I always feel like the accredited ones have more advantages.