VA Mental Health Provider Venting / Problem-solving / Peer Support Thread

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No one is asking you to feel bad for them. What I’m saying is that maybe staff don’t know all the factors that lead to decision making. What makes you think you know the correct course of action when you don’t know the factors in decision making? Why do you think you’re in a position to know whether they are doing the job properly? You only know your position and the others around you. Not the whole picture.

I'm a little unclear what it is that you think I am not aware of for the purposes of my issue? I know the national directives and guidelines for doing my job because I read them when I started this job and we have monthly calls discussing the stuff. I know I have been blown off on my annual performance evals. I know that based on the aforementioned national directives that special practice psychology are supposed to have special individual metrics that are to be on the performance evals. I have discussed this with other folks in my specialty before to understand metrics they have been given at their sites. I know that I am now receiving an email from my boss stating that there are complaints that specialty practice staff are not meeting the RVU goals required of outpatient psychologists. That is a silly email to send to us (not the entire department mind you) given our jobs. Outside of that, I really don't care how well my boss is doing their job. I understand that this person may not have time to do all of this extra work for a few people given their other obligations. That sucks, but it really is not my problem. That is the joy of being the front line employee and not the manager. I only care if my needs are met.
 
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Do you have a link to the study handy? I haven't read it yet but need to. I'd love to start a separate thread to discuss (I'm sure it's interesting to all psychologists, not just VA psychologists).
Sure thing. Here's the webpage where the monograph may be found. Lots to discuss and will be fascinating to see how the peer/editorial review process goes on the way to its publication in a journal.

 
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I'm a little unclear what it is that you think I am not aware of for the purposes of my issue? I know the national directives and guidelines for doing my job because I read them when I started this job and we have monthly calls discussing the stuff. I know I have been blown off on my annual performance evals and given an "exceeds expectations" with no performance metrics in place since I started. I know that based on the aforementioned national directives that special practice psychology are supposed to have special individual metrics that are to be discussed at that meeting and agreed to by the employee (me). I have discussed this with other folks in my specialty before to understand metrics they have been given at their sites. I know that I am now receiving an email from that same boss stating that there are complaints that I (and all of the other specialty psychology folks) are not meeting the RVU goals required of outpatient psychologists. That is a silly email to send to us (not the entire department mind you) given our jobs. Outside of that, I really don't care how well my boss is doing their job. I understand that this person may not have time to do all of this extra work for a few people given their other obligations. That sucks, but it really is not my problem. That is the joy of being the front line employee and not the manager. I only care if my needs are met.
How the heck would I know? That’s my point.
I want to say more, but to say more would be to dox myself.
 
What I have encountered (over and over again) and, yes, in psychologist leaders as well is whenever concerns/questions are raised (which is exceedingly rare given the organizational climate and its tendency to punish critical discussion), the immediate responses appear directly geared toward shutting down any and all discussion. They even pre-emptively say things like, 'We're going to discuss X {some new politically/administratively unjustifiable burden on the providers}, now there's no point in saying we shouldn't be doing things this way because {the higher ups say we're going to do it and so we're going to do it}.' So, we're not really going to 'discuss' anything; we're going to receive our marching orders.

However, as I am tried making the point to them (before giving up entirely), even if 'there's nothing that we can do about it' in terms of 'reversing' some mandate from Central Office (I agree, we're not going to do that), it is still worthwhile for the front-line psychologists to be able to COMMUNICATE to their leadership (and one another) challenges, rationale (or lack thereof), implementation barriers, frustrations (and potential solutions), ethical/legal/moral dilemmas (which are frequent), and the challenge of reconciling often conflicting policies/procedures, and efforts to manage role conflicts and conflicts among various duties in the day to day clinical practice in VA outpatient settings. What I have universally experienced is the immediate tendency to 'shut down' any and all discussion. A competent and high-quality leader WANTS TO HEAR about such things from her/his subordinates because, otherwise, they are flying blind when sitting in meetings with the other 'higher-ups' and deciding local policy/procedure and can, therefore, be an articulate advocate for his/her psychology staff. Moreover, it really contributes to provider burnout to not even be able to articulate your concerns to leadership without being shut down. Finally, one psychologist may have innovated (because we have to) a decent solution to a role conflict or other clinical problem and it would be worthwhile for them to be able to share it with the group.

A couple of case examples of what I consider a failure in MH leadership all the way up and down the organization are how things like 1) caregiver support (for MH problems) and 2) service dogs have been handled over the years. And, yes, I know about the recently made public monograph on the two-arm study but that topic is worthy of its own discussion thread.

Regarding 'caregiver support' (as a paid benefit to spouses) to 'treat/manage' mental health conditions like PTSD and depression (most frequently requested). Nine or ten years ago when this was just rolling out to VA hospitals, it was obvious to any clinician worth their salt that this was a terrible idea from a mental health recovery perspective. There is no literature on using a paid family member as a 'caregiver' to treat PTSD. In fact, a very good argument can be made that it is actually iatrogenic (for reasons I can spell out if I need to). But I didn't (still don't) see any evidence of any real articulated opposition to the idea from leadership in mental health. If they DID articulate any meaningful dissenting views, why couldn't they have just shared that with us, say, in private one-on-one meetings or in service meetings? For example, 'Folks, I know this doesn't comport with the professional/scientific literature but I have raised my concerns to leadership in X meeting but we are still being given the directive.' Nope. That's not what we get. We get them 'selling' the idea to us (like it's a used car) and we're supposed to 'sell' it to veterans and/or go along with the practice. Now (finally) several years later, the organization is realizing what a bad idea caregiver support for PTSD is and they have completely re-vamped the program to handle it very differently. Would have been nice if the organization had listened 10 years ago.

There is so much to say about the service dog issue I'll try to be as brief as possible and focus on just one really frustrating part. The new idea of considering the service dog a 'prosthetic' to be 'prescribed' by a MH provider (and they came up with a new term/concept of the 'Mental Health Mobility Dog.' We are supposed to get with our 'interprofessional team' when a veteran makes a request for a 'Mental Health Mobility Dog' for his PTSD and do an 'evaluation' and if we believe that the mobility dog is the 'optimal' (their words) intervention to address his 'mental health mobility issue' then we are to write a prescription (to 'prescribe,' their word) and articulate how it is necessary to their mental health treatment plan. This is so that they can qualify to have the VA pay lifetime insurance/equipment costs for the dog. Setting aside for the moment the legal/ethical issues involved in 'prescribing' animals (for which there is no serious literature or training programs to teach folks how to do this, nor are there any references or resources in the clinical and scientific literature that operationally define such an 'assessment' procedure--in fact, it seems to be simply a (golden) rubber-stamping procedure in which everyone who wants a dog gets a dog or there will be hell to pay. And if the 'assessment' is merely a background check and review to make sure the person isn't a homeless debilitated alcoholic who hates dogs then it's trivial and doesn't require a doctoral level psychologist to complete it. Who's going to say 'no' to a veteran requesting this? Under what conditions WOULD you say no? I mean, what exactly does a 'dog prescriber' do in terms of their assessment procedures and deliberations before 'deciding' to prescribe the dog? I can take down from my bookshelf Stahl's prescriber guide and see quite clearly the things a competent medication prescriber needs to take into account, the knowledge necessary to prescribe, and the responsible execution of that duty to prescribe. The dog? What is wrong with the term 'recommend?' I'll stop, but you get the point. Where was the 'leadership' in psychology within the VA organization on this one. Did they articulate similar concerns? Where is the evidence for this? They sure as hell haven't communicated this to the rank-and-file. I imagine that when this comes down and we 'receive' 'further guidance' from on high that the 'discussion' on the topic will take the predictable form of: (1) Here is what you are to do; (2) you must comply (or else); (3) there's no point in raising concerns, objections, or ethical dilemmas about it, we have to do it so just do it.

I should also say that I'm equally disappointed in the psychology leadership/luminaries in the field OUTSIDE of the VA for failing to speak up on such issues. Back in the day when the 'recovered memory' nonsense was rampant, at least back then the leaders of the field (many of them) had the bravery to do the right thing and voice unpopular opinions regarding how this was indeed nonsense (no matter how popular in the tabloids and news). I don't see anything of the sort happening on some of these other fads recently like emotional support/ service animals as treatments for mental health conditions or caregiver support. We should expect better. We should at least expect a decent expression of their struggles (as leaders) to communicate to other non-psychologists the issues that we struggle with (and to listen to us, as we struggle to implement some of this nonsense).
I have thoughts, but I’m not comfortable sharing them on a public message board. What I do feel comfortable with is:
1. Sometimes there are policies in place that don’t make sense because a leader can’t give their supervisees all the information. Most everyone here is I imagine a highly functioning clinician. But in both VA and non-VA settings, laws force supervisors to take everyone to the lowest level standards. I have thoughts on that, since I stepped away from the VA and went into leadership. It’s true in both private and public sectors.
2. What do your supervisors do that’s right? So you’ve picked two frustrating examples. What I find frustrating in my setting is my supervisees complain a lot about policies they hate, and make no note of what they like or what’s working for them. It gets exhausting as leaders and can burn them out, which can make them less effective. It’s like always having teenagers who are never satisfied. What I‘m suggesting is that employees can also influence the culture of their organization by broadening their views to include the positive, AND to mention it to their colleagues and their supervisor.
3. I know some situations are unsalvagable. I have had a few horrendous bosses. The worst one was absent. Just never there.
 
I have thoughts, but I’m not comfortable sharing them on a public message board. What I do feel comfortable with is:
1. Sometimes there are policies in place that don’t make sense because a leader can’t give their supervisees all the information. Most everyone here is I imagine a highly functioning clinician. But in both VA and non-VA settings, laws force supervisors to take everyone to the lowest level standards. I have thoughts on that, since I stepped away from the VA and went into leadership. It’s true in both private and public sectors.
2. What do your supervisors do that’s right? So you’ve picked two frustrating examples. What I find frustrating in my setting is my supervisees complain a lot about policies they hate, and make no note of what they like or what’s working for them. It gets exhausting as leaders and can burn them out, which can make them less effective. It’s like always having teenagers who are never satisfied. What I‘m suggesting is that employees can also influence the culture of their organization by broadening their views to include the positive, AND to mention it to their colleagues and their supervisor.
3. I know some situations are unsalvagable. I have had a few horrendous bosses. The worst one was absent. Just never there.
I definitely go out of my way to sincerely thank my leadership when they have allowed me to articulate my concerns and brought a role conflict or ethical concern to their attention and they haven't immediately attempted to shut down the discussion. I actually make a point of doing this. I even explain that I think it's good for the organization and our service if such issues can be 'aired' and openly discussed even if we (at present) "can't do anything about it" in the form of ignoring or reversing the directive. We can still process, consider and walk through the dilemmas involved and reach some consensus on implementation parameters.

Beyond the two examples, there is a general allergy to truth-telling within VA management and this is the general concern. There were also potential opportunities for psychology leadership to respectfully but clearly articulate the needs, opinions, and boundaries of professional psychologists around some of the more problematic policies. I haven't seen any evidence that this is occurring nor have I seen where leaders have even explicitly claimed that they raised specific issues up the chain of command (e.g. the incompatibility of service dogs as prosthetics with CBT models of PTSD recovery, or the absurd mis-specification of criterion C2 (external avoidance) in PTSD as a 'mobility impairment' requiring a prescribed 'prosthetic' in the form of a canine similar to an artificial leg for an amputee. I mean, how difficult would it be for a concerned group of psychs in leadership to compose a position paper articulating some of these concerns for internal use/reference or even submitting same for publication in a journal. The dog issue is just one of many.
 
Anyone ever seen the VA express concern about capacity to consent to sexual relationships? Or heard of the VA reporting to NICS?
 
I have thoughts, but I’m not comfortable sharing them on a public message board. What I do feel comfortable with is:
1. Sometimes there are policies in place that don’t make sense because a leader can’t give their supervisees all the information. Most everyone here is I imagine a highly functioning clinician. But in both VA and non-VA settings, laws force supervisors to take everyone to the lowest level standards. I have thoughts on that, since I stepped away from the VA and went into leadership. It’s true in both private and public sectors.
2. What do your supervisors do that’s right? So you’ve picked two frustrating examples. What I find frustrating in my setting is my supervisees complain a lot about policies they hate, and make no note of what they like or what’s working for them. It gets exhausting as leaders and can burn them out, which can make them less effective. It’s like always having teenagers who are never satisfied. What I‘m suggesting is that employees can also influence the culture of their organization by broadening their views to include the positive, AND to mention it to their colleagues and their supervisor.
3. I know some situations are unsalvagable. I have had a few horrendous bosses. The worst one was absent. Just never there.
I see this as well, and it's frustrating for me as a frontline provider. Although I think it's incumbent on supervisors to actively listen to their supervisees when they're voicing concerns, which doesn't always happen, and maybe to explicitly elicit positive feedback (since it's easy to get in the habit of just complaining).
 
I have thoughts, but I’m not comfortable sharing them on a public message board. What I do feel comfortable with is:
1. Sometimes there are policies in place that don’t make sense because a leader can’t give their supervisees all the information. Most everyone here is I imagine a highly functioning clinician. But in both VA and non-VA settings, laws force supervisors to take everyone to the lowest level standards. I have thoughts on that, since I stepped away from the VA and went into leadership. It’s true in both private and public sectors.
Agreed, that is pretty much how it will always be. That said, the difference between being a supervisor and having ownership is the ability to control how you implement standards and policies. That is why I don't plan to go back into leadership without ownership.
2. What do your supervisors do that’s right? So you’ve picked two frustrating examples. What I find frustrating in my setting is my supervisees complain a lot about policies they hate, and make no note of what they like or what’s working for them. It gets exhausting as leaders and can burn them out, which can make them less effective. It’s like always having teenagers who are never satisfied. What I‘m suggesting is that employees can also influence the culture of their organization by broadening their views to include the positive, AND to mention it to their colleagues and their supervisor.
Welcome to the joys of middle management. I am actually very positive about my supervisors (who until recently were colleagues) and I get the challenges they face more than most. Hence why I come here to vent rather than back at them in an email or phone call. That said, I would rather be the teenager unless I am getting paid serious money.
3. I know some situations are unsalvagable. I have had a few horrendous bosses. The worst one was absent. Just never there.

Of course there are, there are some terrific bosses and many mediocre ones as well. The catch-22 is that the best leaders often burn out the earliest because they are the most engaged. I used to spend a lot of my time addressing employee concerns and supervising tough situations (much more time than was allotted in my managerial duties) that a counterpart did not. The result was that I worked longer hours and employees (even those that were not mine) would call me when they could not get hold of another manager. I got tired and left while the other person was/is still there. It is often a thankless job as you are often the messenger and not the decider.

It is often a tug of war between the top and the bottom, the manager is just the rope in the middle.
 
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I honestly think that you need a certain balance of picking your battles to be an effective middle management VA admin. I know a clinic admin who fought a lot of things, all of which were extremely good causes, but in the end got burnt out and left the VA. I also know people who I don't think pick enough battles. That balance is hard to maintain but important. You also need to be able to anger people and know that you won't be able to please everyone.
 
I definitely go out of my way to sincerely thank my leadership when they have allowed me to articulate my concerns and brought a role conflict or ethical concern to their attention and they haven't immediately attempted to shut down the discussion. I actually make a point of doing this. I even explain that I think it's good for the organization and our service if such issues can be 'aired' and openly discussed even if we (at present) "can't do anything about it" in the form of ignoring or reversing the directive. We can still process, consider and walk through the dilemmas involved and reach some consensus on implementation parameters.

Beyond the two examples, there is a general allergy to truth-telling within VA management and this is the general concern. There were also potential opportunities for psychology leadership to respectfully but clearly articulate the needs, opinions, and boundaries of professional psychologists around some of the more problematic policies. I haven't seen any evidence that this is occurring nor have I seen where leaders have even explicitly claimed that they raised specific issues up the chain of command (e.g. the incompatibility of service dogs as prosthetics with CBT models of PTSD recovery, or the absurd mis-specification of criterion C2 (external avoidance) in PTSD as a 'mobility impairment' requiring a prescribed 'prosthetic' in the form of a canine similar to an artificial leg for an amputee. I mean, how difficult would it be for a concerned group of psychs in leadership to compose a position paper articulating some of these concerns for internal use/reference or even submitting same for publication in a journal. The dog issue is just one of many.
So you give them positive reinforcement when they give you the space to air your concerns. That’s great. But what about the other things that they may do address the quality of your employment? Not just giving you the space to talk about the difficulties.

Allergy to truth-telling is interesting. There are sometimes reasons why things aren’t discussed openly. And one of the big reasons is that some employees take advantage of things. It’s hard to say more on a public forum. But in a complaint-filing world, many get drawn down to the lowest functioning employee.
 
So you give them positive reinforcement when they give you the space to air your concerns. That’s great. But what about the other things that they may do address the quality of your employment? Not just giving you the space to talk about the difficulties.

Allergy to truth-telling is interesting. There are sometimes reasons why things aren’t discussed openly. And one of the big reasons is that some employees take advantage of things. It’s hard to say more on a public forum. But in a complaint-filing world, many get drawn down to the lowest functioning employee.
This is a thread specifically focused on venting/concerns/peer support in dealing with frustrations of being a VA MH provider. As such, it is going to be tilted heavily toward those topics. Edit: to be clear, I am mentioning that this is a venting forum to explain why *my* posts are slanted toward *critiques* of the VA system (and management) rather than singing their praises. This was meant to contextualize the tenor of *my* posts and in no way was a snipe at others to 'stay on topic.'
Of course I may have positive things to say about leadership when their behavior is commendable.

I feel that I give my colleagues (including supervisors) a fair shake. I conduct myself honorably with them and I have shared my concerns (and gratitude) with them in good faith and when it was appropriate.
 
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This is a thread specifically focused on venting/concerns/peer support in dealing with frustrations of being a VA MH provider. As such, it is going to be tilted heavily toward those topics.

I feel that I give my colleagues (including supervisors) a fair shake. I conduct myself honorably with them and I have shared my concerns (and gratitude) with them in good faith and when it was appropriate.
Oh right, I forgot that threads on this forum must always stick to the topic.
Actually, I’m surprised that it is about venting only. As psychologists we all know that venting can reinforce focusing on only the negative.
 
Oh right, I forgot that threads on this forum must always stick to the topic.
Actually, I’m surprised that it is about venting only. As psychologists we all know that venting can reinforce focusing on only the negative.
Actually, you sound like you're venting a bit (about bad supervisees who vent/complain too much and don't appreciate their supervisors enough). It's cool. I think you've made some good points and a lot of folks have agreed with them.
 
Oh right, I forgot that threads on this forum must always stick to the topic.
Actually, I’m surprised that it is about venting only. As psychologists we all know that venting can reinforce focusing on only the negative.

I think of this less as venting and more as validation.
 
I think of it as 'outsourcing my sanity' too, LOL. I can def go overboard on venting/ complaining and need a reality check from time to time.

Agreed. In addition, I think it helps to understand the experience others are going through. Some of these issues may be systemic to the VA. Others may be to more localized to a specific medical center or VISN. It helps to identify where the problem is so that we can make individual decisions. For example, if I get sick of certain issues, is it worth considering a transfer to a different site or will I encounter this difficulty anywhere?

@Psycycle, you doing alright? Leadership can be a lonely place.
 
Oh right, I forgot that threads on this forum must always stick to the topic.
Actually, I’m surprised that it is about venting only. As psychologists we all know that venting can reinforce focusing on only the negative.
I am in a "leadership" position as well, although with 65,000 total employees at Centene, and seemingly ever occurring acquisitions, it is indeed probably "middle management" at this point if I am being honest with myself (it was "Cenpatico" when I was hired, and there were not nearly as many layers and subsidiaries back then). That said, there are many opportunities for my supervisees to express what we (I) are doing well. But, I certainly expect and accept that I am mostly responsible for correcting the negative aspects of their work day/flow, and addressing what is NOT working for them. At least in that part of my job duties.

To reiterate my point from the morning, I think the biggest difference is that I have much more power to change things (on my own) and to speak up to people above me than a typical G2-14 (or 15?) program manager or coordinator at the VA. And...I would never just tell someone to essentially suck it up cause it comes from "above" even though it makes little practical/clinical sense (as was many times remarked to me at the VA). I wasn't hired into the position just to tow the company line, right? I was hired to be an actual leader, and to be a "change agent" for the company if needed, right? Thus, I sense that most of our employees feel more empowered and heard than many VA Staff Psychologists do. We are much more dynamic and embracing of change and the lean stuff here than I ever saw the VA be (even though they attempted to train us to death on the subject).

On the flip side, I don't directly "supervise" that many people, and no one has ever really been a problem child or a significant personality case. If anything, I, myself, am a rather "moody" kinda fella and prone to being rejecting of authority by nature/temperament. Nevertheless, my current leadership position had been going swimmingly for the past 4 years.
 
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Agreed. In addition, I think it helps to understand the experience others are going through. Some of these issues may be systemic to the VA. Others may be to more localized to a specific medical center or VISN. It helps to identify where the problem is so that we can make individual decisions. For example, if I get sick of certain issues, is it worth considering a transfer to a different site or will I encounter this difficulty anywhere?

@Psycycle, you doing alright? Leadership can be a lonely place.
haha you know there is no way to answer that question without it sounding either defensive or like I’m not doing fine. But I really am fine in my role. I may not have the VA constrictions, but I do have private hospital constrictions. That said, I have a TON of support from my management and colleagues which is great. Really what I was hoping to offer here was a different perspective. Leadership can seem like a faceless entity that makes stupid decisions, and sometimes it is. Other times there’s context that isn’t always relayed, or can’t be relayed.

I do also have a few significant personality cases under me. And when you have staff, everyone has to be treated the same, at least in terms of what is offered/rewarded, and so on. Otherwise you can be looking at a complaint.
 
Actually, you sound like you're venting a bit (about bad supervisees who vent/complain too much and don't appreciate their supervisors enough). It's cool. I think you've made some good points and a lot of folks have agreed with them.
Is that really all you got from what I’ve been saying?
Jeez. Maybe I don’t communicate well.
 
This is a thread specifically focused on venting/concerns/peer support in dealing with frustrations of being a VA MH provider. As such, it is going to be tilted heavily toward those topics. Edit: to be clear, I am mentioning that this is a venting forum to explain why *my* posts are slanted toward *critiques* of the VA system (and management) rather than singing their praises. This was meant to contextualize the tenor of *my* posts and in no way was a snipe at others to 'stay on topic.'
Of course I may have positive things to say about leadership when their behavior is commendable.

I feel that I give my colleagues (including supervisors) a fair shake. I conduct myself honorably with them and I have shared my concerns (and gratitude) with them in good faith and when it was appropriate.
Okay I see you edited. I have to say that at times this can be frustrating on this forum, the way that what I say is changed into something more extreme. I never said anyone should “sing the praises” of leadership. Again, jeez.
 
Omg, us too! I actually have the dashboard bookmarked. Because of it I only got "meets expectations" on my annual eval which annoyed me because, like, this is a pandemic. On the plus side, my RVUs are way better now and I'm almost at my minimum target already.

Right now, our facility is more on a kick to force everyone to do video. It's actually tied to working from home--you need to have a certain percentage video, and the percentages correspond to how many days you get. If VVC isn't working that day, which you know often happens, we have to offer Doximity. You also do need to meet a certain productivity standard to WFH, which I also find ridiculous.
Soo, how do you access the dashboard w/o being an admin? I've gone to the website to try to monitor my productivity and told I didn't have access. My previous manager told me I couldn't get it bc it has PHI of other staff or something?? Very curious about tracking my rvu's
 
What I have encountered (over and over again) and, yes, in psychologist leaders as well is whenever concerns/questions are raised (which is exceedingly rare given the organizational climate and its tendency to punish critical discussion), the immediate responses appear directly geared toward shutting down any and all discussion. They even pre-emptively say things like, 'We're going to discuss X {some new politically/administratively unjustifiable burden on the providers}, now there's no point in saying we shouldn't be doing things this way because {the higher ups say we're going to do it and so we're going to do it}.' So, we're not really going to 'discuss' anything; we're going to receive our marching orders.

However, as I am tried making the point to them (before giving up entirely), even if 'there's nothing that we can do about it' in terms of 'reversing' some mandate from Central Office (I agree, we're not going to do that), it is still worthwhile for the front-line psychologists to be able to COMMUNICATE to their leadership (and one another) challenges, rationale (or lack thereof), implementation barriers, frustrations (and potential solutions), ethical/legal/moral dilemmas (which are frequent), and the challenge of reconciling often conflicting policies/procedures, and efforts to manage role conflicts and conflicts among various duties in the day to day clinical practice in VA outpatient settings. What I have universally experienced is the immediate tendency to 'shut down' any and all discussion. A competent and high-quality leader WANTS TO HEAR about such things from her/his subordinates because, otherwise, they are flying blind when sitting in meetings with the other 'higher-ups' and deciding local policy/procedure and can, therefore, be an articulate advocate for his/her psychology staff. Moreover, it really contributes to provider burnout to not even be able to articulate your concerns to leadership without being shut down. Finally, one psychologist may have innovated (because we have to) a decent solution to a role conflict or other clinical problem and it would be worthwhile for them to be able to share it with the group.

A couple of case examples of what I consider a failure in MH leadership all the way up and down the organization are how things like 1) caregiver support (for MH problems) and 2) service dogs have been handled over the years. And, yes, I know about the recently made public monograph on the two-arm study but that topic is worthy of its own discussion thread.

Regarding 'caregiver support' (as a paid benefit to spouses) to 'treat/manage' mental health conditions like PTSD and depression (most frequently requested). Nine or ten years ago when this was just rolling out to VA hospitals, it was obvious to any clinician worth their salt that this was a terrible idea from a mental health recovery perspective. There is no literature on using a paid family member as a 'caregiver' to treat PTSD. In fact, a very good argument can be made that it is actually iatrogenic (for reasons I can spell out if I need to). But I didn't (still don't) see any evidence of any real articulated opposition to the idea from leadership in mental health. If they DID articulate any meaningful dissenting views, why couldn't they have just shared that with us, say, in private one-on-one meetings or in service meetings? For example, 'Folks, I know this doesn't comport with the professional/scientific literature but I have raised my concerns to leadership in X meeting but we are still being given the directive.' Nope. That's not what we get. We get them 'selling' the idea to us (like it's a used car) and we're supposed to 'sell' it to veterans and/or go along with the practice. Now (finally) several years later, the organization is realizing what a bad idea caregiver support for PTSD is and they have completely re-vamped the program to handle it very differently. Would have been nice if the organization had listened 10 years ago.

There is so much to say about the service dog issue I'll try to be as brief as possible and focus on just one really frustrating part. The new idea of considering the service dog a 'prosthetic' to be 'prescribed' by a MH provider (and they came up with a new term/concept of the 'Mental Health Mobility Dog.' We are supposed to get with our 'interprofessional team' when a veteran makes a request for a 'Mental Health Mobility Dog' for his PTSD and do an 'evaluation' and if we believe that the mobility dog is the 'optimal' (their words) intervention to address his 'mental health mobility issue' then we are to write a prescription (to 'prescribe,' their word) and articulate how it is necessary to their mental health treatment plan. This is so that they can qualify to have the VA pay lifetime insurance/equipment costs for the dog. Setting aside for the moment the legal/ethical issues involved in 'prescribing' animals (for which there is no serious literature or training programs to teach folks how to do this, nor are there any references or resources in the clinical and scientific literature that operationally define such an 'assessment' procedure--in fact, it seems to be simply a (golden) rubber-stamping procedure in which everyone who wants a dog gets a dog or there will be hell to pay. And if the 'assessment' is merely a background check and review to make sure the person isn't a homeless debilitated alcoholic who hates dogs then it's trivial and doesn't require a doctoral level psychologist to complete it. Who's going to say 'no' to a veteran requesting this? Under what conditions WOULD you say no? I mean, what exactly does a 'dog prescriber' do in terms of their assessment procedures and deliberations before 'deciding' to prescribe the dog? I can take down from my bookshelf Stahl's prescriber guide and see quite clearly the things a competent medication prescriber needs to take into account, the knowledge necessary to prescribe, and the responsible execution of that duty to prescribe. The dog? What is wrong with the term 'recommend?' I'll stop, but you get the point. Where was the 'leadership' in psychology within the VA organization on this one. Did they articulate similar concerns? Where is the evidence for this? They sure as hell haven't communicated this to the rank-and-file. I imagine that when this comes down and we 'receive' 'further guidance' from on high that the 'discussion' on the topic will take the predictable form of: (1) Here is what you are to do; (2) you must comply (or else); (3) there's no point in raising concerns, objections, or ethical dilemmas about it, we have to do it so just do it.

I should also say that I'm equally disappointed in the psychology leadership/luminaries in the field OUTSIDE of the VA for failing to speak up on such issues. Back in the day when the 'r thecovered memory' nonsense was rampant, at least back then the leaders of the field (many of them) had the bravery to do the right thing and voice unpopular opinions regarding how this was indeed nonsense (no matter how popular in the tabloids and news). I don't see anything of the sort happening on some of these other fads recently like emotional support/ service animals as treatments for mental health conditions or caregiver support. We should expect better. We should at least expect a decent expression of their struggles (as leaders) to communicate to other non-psychologists the issues that we struggle with (and to listen to us, as we struggle to implement some of this nonsense).
So agreed. Good leaders respect their providers and can acknowledge to them that x policy is BS...but given that we still must do it anyway, how can we (together!) collaborate to make the best of the crappy situation. I have been in VA systems with leaders that can do this and then those that fail miserably at this. Morale is like night and day across these two types of systems.
 
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Hi everyone- I’m headed off to internship at a VA and would like to stay in a VA longer term. My area of focus is SUD and on internship I’ll be doing SUD, neuropsych, long term therapy (ro dbt) and am torn between two rotations to choose from. The options are combat trauma (pe cpt) and health psychology/cardiology/pulmonology where there’s interdisciplinary care (act and MI approaches). I will already get exposure to trauma in SUD but am wondering if anyone has advice?

TLDR: what is better in the long term if staying at a VA/hospital? trauma or health psychology?

thanks!
 
Hi everyone- I’m headed off to internship at a VA and would like to stay in a VA longer term. My area of focus is SUD and on internship I’ll be doing SUD, neuropsych, long term therapy (ro dbt) and am torn between two rotations to choose from. The options are combat trauma (pe cpt) and health psychology/cardiology/pulmonology where there’s interdisciplinary care (act and MI approaches). I will already get exposure to trauma in SUD but am wondering if anyone has advice?

TLDR: what is better in the long term if staying at a VA/hospital? trauma or health psychology?

thanks!

If you want to get experience with patients not engaging and quitting therapy in fairly high numbers, go the combat trauma route. I've done PE/CPT in and outside of the VA, completely different ballgames. Personally, I'd go with the health psych route, those skills will more easily transfer to other institutions. At least in my area, this is one of the only areas that is hiring psychologists in hospital settings.
 
If you want to get experience with patients not engaging and quitting therapy in fairly high numbers, go the combat trauma route. I've done PE/CPT in and outside of the VA, completely different ballgames. Personally, I'd go with the health psych route, those skills will more easily transfer to other institutions. At least in my area, this is one of the only areas that is hiring psychologists in hospital settings.
True. And if dropout rates are high (which they are) in evidence-based protocols for PTSD in the VA setting, then people are really going to get a shock when they ever examine and publish data exposing the anemic acceptance rates (in the first place) of proffered CPT/PE to veterans with PTSD presenting for mental health treatment in open-access clinics within the VA (e.g., post-deployment clinics, general mental health clinics, and CBOCs).

I'd estimate that this acceptance rate hovers somewhere between 5-15%--and that may be being quite generous. I'd love to see the real numbers but I doubt the VA folks (even if they have these numbers internally) would ever want that info to get out.

One of the most ridiculous things about the general approach to outpatient psychotherapy approaches at VA is that most providers are encouraged to take a dichotomous view/ approach to treatment structure. Either people are receiving protocol treatments (PE, CPT, CBT-i, etc.)--which are great treatments, for those who will accept that high level of structure and complete the work involved--or they are placed in some sort of 'regular' (non-intensive) branded clinic and seen monthly for 'supportive' therapy (essentially, zero structure). There is little to no emphasis on providing training on and promoting competence in basic assessment, case formulation, and flexibly structured approaches to implementing a more process-based approach within which level of structure can be more flexibly applied.
 
Hi everyone- I’m headed off to internship at a VA and would like to stay in a VA longer term. My area of focus is SUD and on internship I’ll be doing SUD, neuropsych, long term therapy (ro dbt) and am torn between two rotations to choose from. The options are combat trauma (pe cpt) and health psychology/cardiology/pulmonology where there’s interdisciplinary care (act and MI approaches). I will already get exposure to trauma in SUD but am wondering if anyone has advice?

TLDR: what is better in the long term if staying at a VA/hospital? trauma or health psychology?

thanks!
Part of it would probably depend on what area(s) you'd like to focus on in your career. If you want to work in a PTSD Clinical Team (PCT) or something similar, get the trauma experience. Otherwise, I agree with WisNeuro that the health psych training may be more widely-applicable in- and outside VA, since you've said you'll already be getting some trauma exposure on internship.

It may also be easier to get structured trauma training down the road via VA certification and other programs, if you change your mind later.
 
Hi everyone- I’m headed off to internship at a VA and would like to stay in a VA longer term. My area of focus is SUD and on internship I’ll be doing SUD, neuropsych, long term therapy (ro dbt) and am torn between two rotations to choose from. The options are combat trauma (pe cpt) and health psychology/cardiology/pulmonology where there’s interdisciplinary care (act and MI approaches). I will already get exposure to trauma in SUD but am wondering if anyone has advice?

TLDR: what is better in the long term if staying at a VA/hospital? trauma or health psychology?

thanks!

For internship, I always recommend going out of your comfort zone, cuz it may be one of the last times you get to! Sounds like maybe the health stuff is less familiar to you, so that would be my vote. But at the end of the day, both of those rotations would likely be an asset for someone interested in health psych.

Oh, last thing, in my experience, people tend to underestimate how relevant health psych is in addiction/SUD treatment, so it could actually be a really good complement to the SUD stuff that wouldn’t be as clearly included, whereas trauma stuff is kind of expected to show up in sud, so theres more structured training in it. I hope this makes sense; my toddlers generously shared their cold with me.
 
From the purely practical perspective, unless you're extremely geographically flexible and get lucky with staff turnover flow, you're more likely than not to end up in a general mental health/BHIP position, where treatment and brief assessment of trauma is quite handy.

However, I'll echo the sentiment that this is your last shot at training (unless you do a postdoc) so I'd stretch your skills.

If you're interested in staying the VA, some places are slammed with staff shortages and/or high patient demand growth and might be in less desirable or smaller locations. These facilities always seem to have positions on USAJobs and some may take a pulse and ability to pass the federal background check.

Other places have significantly less turnover (or have direct hire support from hospital leadership) so scan USAJobs periodically to get a sense of where your preferred facilities may fall.
 
Hi everyone- I’m headed off to internship at a VA and would like to stay in a VA longer term. My area of focus is SUD and on internship I’ll be doing SUD, neuropsych, long term therapy (ro dbt) and am torn between two rotations to choose from. The options are combat trauma (pe cpt) and health psychology/cardiology/pulmonology where there’s interdisciplinary care (act and MI approaches). I will already get exposure to trauma in SUD but am wondering if anyone has advice?

TLDR: what is better in the long term if staying at a VA/hospital? trauma or health psychology?

thanks!

Honestly, you are choosing between two great choices.

If you have any trauma work behind you, I'd go health. If little to no trauma work, I'd go with that, given your SUD interest.
 
Anybody want to move to Italy?

 
Hi everyone- I’m headed off to internship at a VA and would like to stay in a VA longer term. My area of focus is SUD and on internship I’ll be doing SUD, neuropsych, long term therapy (ro dbt) and am torn between two rotations to choose from. The options are combat trauma (pe cpt) and health psychology/cardiology/pulmonology where there’s interdisciplinary care (act and MI approaches). I will already get exposure to trauma in SUD but am wondering if anyone has advice?

TLDR: what is better in the long term if staying at a VA/hospital? trauma or health psychology?

thanks!

As others have said, I'd go with what you personally are most interested in because I don't think it matters too much. That being said, if you like trauma, trauma/SUD specialists are always needed IMO.

I'm always going to recommend specialty clinics in the VA bc you run less into the issues discussed above (you can discharge patients back to general OPMH if they aren't doing specific treatments).

True. And if dropout rates are high (which they are) in evidence-based protocols for PTSD in the VA setting, then people are really going to get a shock when they ever examine and publish data exposing the anemic acceptance rates (in the first place) of proffered CPT/PE to veterans with PTSD presenting for mental health treatment in open-access clinics within the VA (e.g., post-deployment clinics, general mental health clinics, and CBOCs).

I'd estimate that this acceptance rate hovers somewhere between 5-15%--and that may be being quite generous. I'd love to see the real numbers but I doubt the VA folks (even if they have these numbers internally) would ever want that info to get out.

One of the most ridiculous things about the general approach to outpatient psychotherapy approaches at VA is that most providers are encouraged to take a dichotomous view/ approach to treatment structure. Either people are receiving protocol treatments (PE, CPT, CBT-i, etc.)--which are great treatments, for those who will accept that high level of structure and complete the work involved--or they are placed in some sort of 'regular' (non-intensive) branded clinic and seen monthly for 'supportive' therapy (essentially, zero structure). There is little to no emphasis on providing training on and promoting competence in basic assessment, case formulation, and flexibly structured approaches to implementing a more process-based approach within which level of structure can be more flexibly applied.

Our clinic has moved into an active episode of care model and, although it hasn't entirely solved this issue, it's been a big help. I also think that you need to sell CPT and PE at the first few appts. If I have a new PTSD patient I will basically at the first appt explain these treatments and be like, which one do you want to do? If they feel they aren't ready I ask, what do you need to feel ready? Of course in my new role I'm like a one-person PCT so now I mainly only see patients that want to do real PTSD treatment (which is awesome!)

If they have been coming for years on a monthly basis, they seem less willing to do those treatments. Then again, some actually want "real" treatments and just didn't know that they were available.
 
As others have said, I'd go with what you personally are most interested in because I don't think it matters too much. That being said, if you like trauma, trauma/SUD specialists are always needed IMO.

I'm always going to recommend specialty clinics in the VA bc you run less into the issues discussed above (you can discharge patients back to general OPMH if they aren't doing specific treatments).



Our clinic has moved into an active episode of care model and, although it hasn't entirely solved this issue, it's been a big help. I also think that you need to sell CPT and PE at the first few appts. If I have a new PTSD patient I will basically at the first appt explain these treatments and be like, which one do you want to do? If they feel they aren't ready I ask, what do you need to feel ready? Of course in my new role I'm like a one-person PCT so now I mainly only see patients that want to do real PTSD treatment (which is awesome!)

If they have been coming for years on a monthly basis, they seem less willing to do those treatments. Then again, some actually want "real" treatments and just didn't know that they were available.
An 'episode of care' model sounds interesting. They haven't 'implemented' that here yet, per se, but of course they discourage 'forever therapy.' If/when they implement it here, I think I'll be in good stead. I'm really getting into utilizing a (CBT) workbook-assisted approach (so therapy has a focus and a beginning-middle-end). Hopefully, all the work will pay off. Since it's nigh impossible to manage to 'unilaterally terminate' with service-connected folks, I have engineered my clinic to have (hopefully) an intrinsic incentive for engagement. Won't see anyone (outside of EBP, workbook-assisted therapy, or suicidal high risk) more often than monthly. If they want more frequent access, they can participate in increased structure.
 
As others have said, I'd go with what you personally are most interested in because I don't think it matters too much. That being said, if you like trauma, trauma/SUD specialists are always needed IMO.

I'm always going to recommend specialty clinics in the VA bc you run less into the issues discussed above (you can discharge patients back to general OPMH if they aren't doing specific treatments).

Our clinic has moved into an active episode of care model and, although it hasn't entirely solved this issue, it's been a big help. I also think that you need to sell CPT and PE at the first few appts. If I have a new PTSD patient I will basically at the first appt explain these treatments and be like, which one do you want to do? If they feel they aren't ready I ask, what do you need to feel ready? Of course in my new role I'm like a one-person PCT so now I mainly only see patients that want to do real PTSD treatment (which is awesome!)

If they have been coming for years on a monthly basis, they seem less willing to do those treatments. Then again, some actually want "real" treatments and just didn't know that they were available.
I recently changed systems and in my new system, we are doing the 'episodes of care' model too, which is helping me not have a lot of recurring sessions with pts who aren't truly interested in some degree of structured, evidence base care....which is nice! So far it's creating a sort of natural weeding out/selection process for retaining the motivated patients. I think other things that are new for me are helping too: centralized scheduling and having a VA cell phone. I discuss with patients that we will schedule 12 weekly sessions in advance and if they agree to care, the scheduler contacts them once I've placed the rtc. It seems easier for the patients to ignore calls from the scheduler than from me, so if they don't really want to schedule this episode of care, they aren't winding up on my schedule. The VA cell phone leaves no excuses for not cancelling in advance when I know it wasn't because they tried to call but couldn't get through on the main VA line (my previous VA discouraged us from giving out our direct extension to pts and had chronic phone system issues). I was initially hesitant about giving everyone my direct cell number but so far no one has used it inappropriately and I rarely receive calls. The pts know they should call and leave me a message on my cell if they can't attend a session. If they have 3 no shows (defined as not presenting to the session or notifying me of cancellation prior to the session start time), I'm supposed to cancel the remaining appointments (which is def new!). It's nice feeling empowered to discharge the unengaged patients...refreshing from the last VA I was at where I felt like I was personably accountable for no shows and needed to harass them until they answered and could hopefully talk them into holding a session while they were driving or in Wal-Mart. Yay.
 
Good morning, this is a question for HBPC providers - what is the RVU expectation for HBPC in a rural area? Thank you!
 
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Good morning, this is a question for HBPC providers - what is the RVUs expectation for HBPC in a rural area? Thank you!

Once removed. One of my good fiends occupies one of those positions in the VA here. At the moment, they do not have an RVU expectation. They run on some sort of convoluted access system. I think @Sanman may have some input.
 
Good morning, this is a question for HBPC providers - what is the RVU expectation for HBPC in a rural area? Thank you!

Do you want the correct answer or the actual one? While national guidance says that RVU expectations should be individual based on drive times and other factors, somewhere around 2-3 people/day or 12-15/week has been the average in the past for all areas. This is for those psychologists managing 120-150 veteran panels. That said, there are people in rural areas that do less and some that do way more. Many folks at the facility level end up implementing things in a way that means staffing ratios and drive times are all over the map. I know of people with a panel of 50-60 veterans in a rural area and some with a panel of over 500. As you can imagine, the stress level is very different for those two positions.
 
Do you want the correct answer or the actual one? While national guidance says that RVU expectations should be individual based on drive times and other factors, somewhere around 2-3 people/day or 12-15/week has been the average in the past for all areas. This is for those psychologists managing 120-150 veteran panels. That said, there are people in rural areas that do less and some that do way more. Many folks at the facility level end up implementing things in a way that means staffing ratios and drive times are all over the map. I know of people with a panel of 50-60 veterans in a rural area and some with a panel of over 500. As you can imagine, the stress level is very different for those two positions.
Thank you for sharing your insight. The reality is concerning. 500 seems to be a dangerously high number that can lead to quick burn-out and potentially hazardous clinical outcomes. How is it possible to provide adequate care if a psychologist barely has time to get documentation in CPRS, especially with HBPC populations that tend to be older, medically more complicated, and some with little or no social support? This reminds me of my nursing home days when we presented the state surveyors our nursing staff ratio of 8 patients/CNA while in reality, it is ofter one or two CNAs per the whole unit and the RN or LPN sitting behind the computer busy documenting about adequate care. :-(
 
Thank you for sharing your insight. The reality is concerning. 500 seems to be a dangerously high number that can lead to quick burn-out and potentially hazardous clinical outcomes. How is it possible to provide adequate care if a psychologist barely has time to get documentation in CPRS, especially with HBPC populations that tend to be older, medically more complicated, and some with little or no social support? This reminds me of my nursing home days when we presented the state surveyors our nursing staff ratio of 8 patients/CNA while in reality, it is ofter one or two CNAs per the whole unit and the RN or LPN sitting behind the computer busy documenting about adequate care. :-(
Yeah...for people who are constantly obsessed with the numbers, some of the folks running the VA bureaucracy apparently can't manage to count that high or something. They typically are only obsessed (and concerned) with 'the numbers' when doing so is of political utility to them. The minute they're not...they have no interest in those numbers...just try bringing them up to them. Same with the empirical literature (or published VA/DoD treatment guidelines where they trash group therapy of PTSD, for example).
 
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Thank you for sharing your insight. The reality is concerning. 500 seems to be a dangerously high number that can lead to quick burn-out and potentially hazardous clinical outcomes. How is it possible to provide adequate care if a psychologist barely has time to get documentation in CPRS, especially with HBPC populations that tend to be older, medically more complicated, and some with little or no social support? This reminds me of my nursing home days when we presented the state surveyors our nursing staff ratio of 8 patients/CNA while in reality, it is ofter one or two CNAs per the whole unit and the RN or LPN sitting behind the computer busy documenting about adequate care. :-(

I don't disagree, I believe that individual only sees the emergent cases, such as suicidality, and does not offer routine psychotherapy. I am not sure for the reason for that staffing ratio as I only know what I heard about it discussed during our HBPC national call a while back, but it may simply be that there is a staffing shortage or a problem getting additional positions approved at the facility. That said, if I were looking for a job in HBPC I would ensure I am not assigned more than ~120-150 veterans and I would ask about the size of the catchment area (distance from where you are assigned) to ensure that the drive time is manageable. A big part of the issue is that HBPC psychologists are generally under the mental health dept structure, but are on loan to geriatrics/HBPC. The mental health chiefs I have worked for had little understanding of what it is we actually do and based on conversations with others nationally, every chief picks their own metrics to judge you on. So, how good or bad the job is usually comes down to how understanding the local mental health bosses are of your situation. We are following all the national guidelines at my facility and still have to justify to the hospital admin above mental health (chief of staff, Mental health/psychiatry chief, etc) that we are not sitting around doing nothing because they simply have not educated themselves on the program.
 
This may be discussed in another thread somewhere but couldn't find it. Do they give any kind of step increase for getting board certified in something? I am seeing people (non-NP's) doing ABPP's and I'm wondering if I'm missing something?
 
This may be discussed in another thread somewhere but couldn't find it. Do they give any kind of step increase for getting board certified in something? I am seeing people (non-NP's) doing ABPP's and I'm wondering if I'm missing something?

VA specific. There was no real consistency from VA to VA on who would award this and who would not. Even in the ones that did, it sometimes took a herculean effort to push the step increase through the channels.
 
This may be discussed in another thread somewhere but couldn't find it. Do they give any kind of step increase for getting board certified in something? I am seeing people (non-NP's) doing ABPP's and I'm wondering if I'm missing something?
It varies by VA. I did get it when I worked there and I think it’s because a psychologist was in a position of power, understood it, and could push it through.
 
OPM - Quality Step Increase

I believe it generally falls under the category of quality step increase (QSI) unless there's another name/process for it. What constitutes a QSI may vary VA to VA but examples I have seen include teaching/research awards and yes board certification (ABPP). From my understanding timing is key - best to apply (and therefore get the certification/award/etc) during a 52-week period where you're already a few years from your next scheduled within-grade step increase to speed up promotion.
 
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