VA Mental Health Provider Venting / Problem-solving / Peer Support Thread

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I had the most epic throw down with my program director this morning. They decided to become condescending to my concerns I was bringing up, and the gloves came off. For 25 minutes, it was a pissing contest where I made them go on the defensive...at one point they told me "what gives you the right to question me; I've be doing this for over 30 years." I literally said "I am your employee, I have all the right to question something when what you are doing is highly concerning and I am hearing the same concerns from others in this department....if no one provides you this feedback, you will never know otherwise." It escalated from there. Suffice it to say, I will likely be moving out of the VA come September. I already have a steady caseload of 12 a week in private practice and I was just offered a forensic position with the county, so I have plenty of options.

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I had the most epic throw down with my program director this morning. They decided to become condescending to my concerns I was bringing up, and the gloves came off. For 25 minutes, it was a pissing contest where I made them go on the defensive...at one point they told me "what gives you the right to question me; I've be doing this for over 30 years." I literally said "I am your employee, I have all the right to question something when what you are doing is highly concerning and I am hearing the same concerns from others in this department....if no one provides you this feedback, you will never know otherwise." It escalated from there. Suffice it to say, I will likely be moving out of the VA come September. I already have a steady caseload of 12 a week in private practice and I was just offered a forensic position with the county, so I have plenty of options.
Let me guess.

Your email inbox is probably filled with multiple emails from multiple people 'higher' than you in your 'chain of command' imploring you to please fill out the All Employee Survey because your feedback is SOOOOOOO important to them and how dedicated they are to building a 'high reliability organization' and 'serving veterans' and, etc, etc, etc....
 
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I had the most epic throw down with my program director this morning. They decided to become condescending to my concerns I was bringing up, and the gloves came off. For 25 minutes, it was a pissing contest where I made them go on the defensive...at one point they told me "what gives you the right to question me; I've be doing this for over 30 years." I literally said "I am your employee, I have all the right to question something when what you are doing is highly concerning and I am hearing the same concerns from others in this department....if no one provides you this feedback, you will never know otherwise." It escalated from there. Suffice it to say, I will likely be moving out of the VA come September. I already have a steady caseload of 12 a week in private practice and I was just offered a forensic position with the county, so I have plenty of options.

Time to retire, old man. Geez!
 
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I had the most epic throw down with my program director this morning. They decided to become condescending to my concerns I was bringing up, and the gloves came off. For 25 minutes, it was a pissing contest where I made them go on the defensive...at one point they told me "what gives you the right to question me; I've be doing this for over 30 years." I literally said "I am your employee, I have all the right to question something when what you are doing is highly concerning and I am hearing the same concerns from others in this department....if no one provides you this feedback, you will never know otherwise." It escalated from there. Suffice it to say, I will likely be moving out of the VA come September. I already have a steady caseload of 12 a week in private practice and I was just offered a forensic position with the county, so I have plenty of options.
Questioning irrational tyrants isn't a 'right.'

It's a responsibility.

"Because we've done it this way for 30 years" isn't an explanation/ justification for a practice.

It's an implicit assertion on the part of 'leadership' of their 'right' to do as they please without any expectation of rationality or accountability.

Just make sure that you fill out your All Employee Survey so they can hike that %age response rate up (preferably >100% which, yes, has actually happened before here).
 
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I have been struggling since losing a patient to suicide a few weeks ago. I was already experiencing significant burnout and feeling disappointed with working in the VA and trying to provide good care to this population. Any suggestions for coping? It's okay if it's something I've probably already considered. Unless any of you recommend using the EAP. Please **** off with that particular rec. There's a lot of work abuse that makes that not an option. And thanks in advance.
 
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I have been struggling since losing a patient to suicide a few weeks ago. I was already experiencing significant burnout and feeling disappointed with working in the VA and trying to provide good care to this population. Any suggestions for coping? It's okay if it's something I've probably already considered. Unless any of you recommend using the EAP. Please **** off with that particular rec. There's a lot of work abuse that makes that not an option. And thanks in advance.

Really sorry to hear. Are you having self-blame or thoughts that you should have done something differently? If so, I'd actually sit down and do a 5 column thought record on the thought. I know it sounds silly, but actually sitting down and writing one out is different from just going through it in your head. Also, just letting yourself grieve and feel those natural emotions (I'm a big fan of the CPT approach with natural vs. manufactured emotions).

Also, if you have any colleagues that are supportive, continuing to talk to them. I know that in my VA SPC always offers to help out with post-vention.
 
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Really sorry to hear. Are you having self-blame or thoughts that you should have done something differently? If so, I'd actually sit down and do a 5 column thought record on the thought. I know it sounds silly, but actually sitting down and writing one out is different from just going through it in your head. Also, just letting yourself grieve and feel those natural emotions (I'm a big fan of the CPT approach with natural vs. manufactured emotions).

Also, if you have any colleagues that are supportive, continuing to talk to them. I know that in my VA SPC always offers to help out with post-vention.
Thanks. Yes, I do have self-blame that I recognize is irrational. I do use the CPT approach to an extent. I have a history of OCD, so I try not to analyze intrusions around harm and guilt. It becomes compulsive for me. There is definitely a ton of sadness and anger working itself out. I wish I could take some time off, but I don't have the leave. I do good with being a clinician, but I am emotionally detached and distant after my work day. I don't have any current colleagues, I'd feel comfortable talking to about it. I have a couple of folks from previous work places that I've started reaching out to.
 
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It's very specific, but I go to brunch with my veterinarian friend and we swap stories about the tragedies and triumphs of our work. I like that our work is different enough that things don't hit so close to home, but we can share how hard to work is sometimes. The mimosas and brunch food options help too. We commit to doing it once a month.
 
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I have been struggling since losing a patient to suicide a few weeks ago. I was already experiencing significant burnout and feeling disappointed with working in the VA and trying to provide good care to this population. Any suggestions for coping? It's okay if it's something I've probably already considered. Unless any of you recommend using the EAP. Please **** off with that particular rec. There's a lot of work abuse that makes that not an option. And thanks in advance.
I've lost 2 patients, it ****ing sucks. Whatever you're experiencing emotionally is 100% valid so it's requiring your attention and you should listen to yourself regarding what you need.

If you need some time off, ask for it (including leave without pay). If you need to engage in more self-care, set up a routine. If you need more distraction, distract away (within reason).

I have found that when the time is right, then I'll work on my thoughts.

Personally, in both of my experiences, I found it most helpful to vent/process with a trusted colleague. Family/friends in other fields can't really understand the burden of caring for others in this way, even before tragic events like this happen.

I'd also recommend checking out some postvention resources if you haven't, both for validation, as well as for some additional ideas/resources:
VA.gov | Veterans Affairs
 
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As someone who has lost hundred if not thousands of patients at this point in my career (though due to medical illness rather than suicide), it can always be a difficult thing to cope with the first time it happens. Something that an old supervisor said has always stuck with me regarding suicide - If a patient's friends, family, and loved ones could not convince them the to live, it takes a certain level of hubris to think anything we can say would change their mind. Personally, I like to measure my impact differently. Very few of my patients will ever improve. I am simply there to be a positive influence in their life to the best of my ability, but I cannot cure them of life's problems. Hopefully, something I said will resonate. I also hope that your chief or supervisor is checking in on you and that you can speak to them about clearing some time off your schedule if you need it. You may not want to go to EAP, but even a workout or yoga class can help to manage the stress. Think about engaging in whatever self-care helps you. Life is about balance, we can't just be there for others with no attention to ourselves.
 
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As someone who has lost hundred if not thousands of patients at this point in my career (though due to medical illness rather than suicide), it can always be a difficult thing to cope with the first time it happens. Something that an old supervisor said has always stuck with me regarding suicide - If a patient's friends, family, and loved ones could not convince them the to live, it takes a certain level of hubris to think anything we can say would change their mind. Personally, I like to measure my impact differently. Very few of my patients will ever improve. I am simply there to be a positive influence in their life to the best of my ability, but I cannot cure them of life's problems. Hopefully, something I said will resonate. I also hope that your chief or supervisor is checking in on you and that you can speak to them about clearing some time off your schedule if you need it. You may not want to go to EAP, but even a workout or yoga class can help to manage the stress. Think about engaging in whatever self-care helps you. Life is about balance, we can't just be there for others with no attention to ourselves.
It does! I actually really appreciate this perspective and your view on what makes your role meaningful.
 
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Thanks. Yes, I do have self-blame that I recognize is irrational. I do use the CPT approach to an extent. I have a history of OCD, so I try not to analyze intrusions around harm and guilt. It becomes compulsive for me. There is definitely a ton of sadness and anger working itself out. I wish I could take some time off, but I don't have the leave. I do good with being a clinician, but I am emotionally detached and distant after my work day. I don't have any current colleagues, I'd feel comfortable talking to about it. I have a couple of folks from previous work places that I've started reaching out to.
I would imagine that some sort of Responsibility Pie Chart of analyzing relative contributors to the event may be helpful, even just by way of a thought exercise. I also think that it is unreasonable to expect 'zero suicide' as a goal when you are, over the years, treating HUNDREDS of cases of mentally ill veterans. How many cardiologists have a 'no cardiac deaths...ever' goal for their practices? How reasonable would that be?
 
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As someone who has lost hundred if not thousands of patients at this point in my career (though due to medical illness rather than suicide), it can always be a difficult thing to cope with the first time it happens. Something that an old supervisor said has always stuck with me regarding suicide - If a patient's friends, family, and loved ones could not convince them the to live, it takes a certain level of hubris to think anything we can say would change their mind. Personally, I like to measure my impact differently. Very few of my patients will ever improve. I am simply there to be a positive influence in their life to the best of my ability, but I cannot cure them of life's problems. Hopefully, something I said will resonate. I also hope that your chief or supervisor is checking in on you and that you can speak to them about clearing some time off your schedule if you need it. You may not want to go to EAP, but even a workout or yoga class can help to manage the stress. Think about engaging in whatever self-care helps you. Life is about balance, we can't just be there for others with no attention to ourselves.
Very wise perspective.

It's important that we 'right-size' our responsibilities in this regard.
 
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I have been struggling since losing a patient to suicide a few weeks ago. I was already experiencing significant burnout and feeling disappointed with working in the VA and trying to provide good care to this population. Any suggestions for coping? It's okay if it's something I've probably already considered. Unless any of you recommend using the EAP. Please **** off with that particular rec. There's a lot of work abuse that makes that not an option. And thanks in advance.
I'm so sorry. I've lost one patient, cause unknown. It is very hard to deal with, to wonder if you could have done something differently. I think sanman shared some valuable thoughts about this already.

I'm really sorry and saddened to hear you don't have anyone at your site to debrief with. I don't know if you'd be comfortable, but at our site chaplains are supposed to provide support. I think it's reasonable to ask for admin leave or to lighten your grid for a week if you need to.

I'm a perfect stranger but also happy to talk, let me know.
 
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I have been struggling since losing a patient to suicide a few weeks ago. I was already experiencing significant burnout and feeling disappointed with working in the VA and trying to provide good care to this population. Any suggestions for coping? It's okay if it's something I've probably already considered. Unless any of you recommend using the EAP. Please **** off with that particular rec. There's a lot of work abuse that makes that not an option. And thanks in advance.
I don’t have any advice or wisdom beyond what others have shared. 100% echo their sentiments, and I’m sorry the environment at your clinic is adding to the pain.
 
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I have been MIA from the thread for a while, so apologies if this was discussed already. Has anyone heard about a new online feature that allows Vets to directly request & get scheduled for appointments without providers placing the RTC? I can see this being useful for medical concerns, but I’ve had several Vets I discharged with get back in my schedule. In the past, MSAs would alert us to call and F/U. And of course, in looking through their charts, none of them F/U with discharge plan (e.g., groups, social work, etc). This feature is feeling like a final straw…
 
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I have been MIA from the thread for a while, so apologies if this was discussed already. Has anyone heard about a new online feature that allows Vets to directly request & get scheduled for appointments without providers placing the RTC? I can see this being useful for medical concerns, but I’ve had several Vets I discharged with get back in my schedule. In the past, MSAs would alert us to call and F/U. And of course, in looking through their charts, none of them F/U with discharge plan (e.g., groups, social work, etc). This feature is feeling like a final straw…
I don't know if this is happening for you but a few years ago we had the option to enable direct scheduling in our clinics. It was on the back end.
 
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I don't know if this is happening for you but a few years ago we had the option to enable direct scheduling in our clinics. It was on the back end.
Interesting. I’m not sure what’s going on here, but this is the first I’ve heard of it and even my boss wasn’t sure how it worked. Reviewing the note in the chart for the online requests, Vets were able to select “routine visit” as the reason they need the appointment. Even though it’s not a routine visit because they were discharged. That’s good to know, though. Thank you.
 
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Interesting. I’m not sure what’s going on here, but this is the first I’ve heard of it and even my boss wasn’t sure how it worked. Reviewing the note in the chart for the online requests, Vets were able to select “routine visit” as the reason they need the appointment. Even though it’s not a routine visit because they were discharged. That’s good to know, though. Thank you.
I mean, isn't there a loophole with the 'same day mental health access' policy? Does your local have one of these? Wondering if this is local or national. My point is, I'm not sure that there is any 'teeth' to be able to enforce a 'discharge' from a MH clinic at VA. Maybe it's handled differently in larger medical centers with larger populations in their catchment areas or something. If someone you saw a few months ago calls or visits your clinic says they need to talk to someone about a crisis or MH issue and they want to see their old therapist again to continue therapy...don't they have to be seen and wouldn't you (if available) be the person to see them?
 
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I mean, isn't there a loophole with the 'same day mental health access' policy? Does your local have one of these? Wondering if this is local or national. My point is, I'm not sure that there is any 'teeth' to be able to enforce a 'discharge' from a MH clinic at VA. Maybe it's handled differently in larger medical centers with larger populations in their catchment areas or something. If someone you saw a few months ago calls or visits your clinic says they need to talk to someone about a crisis or MH issue and they want to see their old therapist again to continue therapy...don't they have to be seen and wouldn't you (if available) be the person to see them?
I don’t think there’s any teeth, which is part of the problem. However, I do know that some VAs are working on SOPs about episodes of care to address this. I predict lots of backlash during initial implementation (e.g. “you’re denying me care!”, White House complaints, etc). However, at least in my experience, when someone does call and try to get back in, I usually call them ahead of time and have a quick chat about time limited therapy, the importance of having breaks to actually practice skills, as well as other resources like groups. So far I haven’t had anyone raise a stink about it, and I’ve successfully “discharged” clients this way. Sometimes even before the appointment that was scheduled through a loophole. I’m not very far in my career, so it’s bound to happen. There are many people I wish would’ve terminated with sooner, but we’ve eventually gotten to the point where they agreed—even if they didn’t feel “better”, but because they accepted my feedback that they weren’t actually implementing changes and were wasting their time. I’ve sometimes said straight up that it wasn’t ethical for me to continue providing “treatment” when treatment wasn’t happening—no one has argued with me on that yet. I’ve also discussed referring to specialty if they insisted on more therapy. Sometimes they say no, because really what they wanted was to just chit chat/vent with me.
 
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This is on a bit of a different topic but, I think, a very important one rarely discussed at VA hospitals.

I don't know about anyone else but I just recently read through the published VA/DoD clinical practice guidelines regarding suicide assessment/management and found it really illuminating. So many of the emphases/ 'thou shalt's' that are thrown around in practice in VA settings don't really have that strong a basis (at all) in the literature. Shouldn't surprise me (in principle) that this is the case...I guess I was just taken aback at how bad it was (the disconnect between the literature and our practices and the fact that this is sitting right out there in the open--in the VA's OWN published 'guidelines').

Really, there were only two practices for which it was concluded that there was 'Strong for' evidence:

1) assessment of main suicide risk factors
2) use CBT with patients who have a recent history of self-directed violence

Everything else was 'weak for' or WORSE.

Very interesting.

Thoughts?

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Rankings of Intervention/Assessment Practices From the Most Recent VA/DoD Assessment and Management of Patients at Risk for Suicide Guidelines

Using these elements, the grade of each recommendation is presented as part of a continuum:
• Strong for (or “We recommend offering this option …”)

- [assessment of suicide risk using main factors] We recommend an assessment of risk factors as part of a
comprehensive evaluation of suicide risk, including but not limited to: current suicidal ideation, prior suicide attempt(s), current psychiatric conditions (e.g., mood disorders, substance use disorders) or symptoms (e.g., hopelessness, insomnia, and agitation), prior psychiatric hospitalization, recent bio-psychosocial stressors, and the availability of firearms.
- [using CBT with patients who have a recent history of self-directed violence] We recommend using cognitive behavioral therapy-based interventions focused on suicide prevention for patients with a recent history of self-directed violence to reduce incidents of future self-directed violence.

-----but note (p. p.32, full guidelines), "The evidence base in support of factors that can protect against suicidal behavior is limited. Nonetheless, evaluation of such factors, particularly those associated with reasons for living, should be included in a comprehensive suicide risk evaluation"

• Weak for (or “We suggest offering this option …”)

- [universal screening with the PHQ-9, item 9] With regard to selecting a universal screening tool, we suggest
the use of the Patient Health Questionnaire-9 item 9, to identify suicide risk.
-----but note (p. 29, full guidelines) "Consistent with previous reviews of the evidence base related to the identification of those who are at elevated risk of dying by suicide, our review found that most screening tools do not accurately predict risk of suicide.[42-48] These tools tend to yield an unacceptably high false-positive prediction rate (i.e., many of those determined to be “at risk” never experience clinically significant suicidal thoughts or behavior) alongside an unacceptably low degree of accuracy when identifying true cases (i.e., a substantial portion of those individuals who die by suicide were not identified by the screening tool)."

AND

"Nonetheless, 71.6% of deaths by suicide during the study periods were among those who endorsed “not at all,” highlighting that use of the item 9 alone is likely to result in a number of at risk patients being missed."

AND (regarding the use of the C-SSRS, specifically)

For example, the Columbia Suicide Severity Rating Scale (C-SSRS) was included in the Runeson et al. (2017) systematic review regarding instruments for assessing suicide risk; however, the one study identified for inclusion in Table 1 entitled, “Instruments evaluated in studies with acceptable risk of bias,” was conducted among 124 adolescents.[52] In their conclusions the authors noted, “There were too few studies to assess the diagnostic accuracy of …the C-SSRS.”[52]Studies that use larger samples, adult cohorts, mortality as their key outcome, and employ prolonged follow-up periods are needed"

- [suicide safety plans] We suggest completing a crisis response plan for individuals with
suicidal ideation and/or a lifetime history of suicide attempts.

---(and note, p. 37 of the full guidelines) Completing a crisis response plan has been found to decrease suicide attempts among military personnel with an ***acute history of suicidal ideation during the past week*** and/or a ***lifetime history of suicide attempts***"

- [caring communication cards] We suggest sending periodic caring communications (e.g.,
postcards) for 12-24 months in addition to usual care after
psychiatric hospitalization for suicidal ideation or a suicide
attempt
- [lethal means counseling] We suggest reducing access to lethal means to decrease suicide
rates at the population level

---(and note, p. 52 of full guidelines), "MSC (means safety counseling) approaches have not been shown to reduce suicide, but have been shown to impact firearm storage practices" and (p. 53 of full guidelines), The Work Group systematically reviewed evidence related to the five recommendations above. The Work Group’s confidence in the quality of the evidence on lethal means safety was very low."


• No recommendation for or against (or “There is insufficient evidence…”)

- [risk stratification - low, intermediate, high risk] While it is an expected standard of care, there is insufficient evidence to recommend for or against the use of risk stratification to determine the level of suicide risk.

----(and note, p. 34, full guidelines) "A valid and reliable tool to classify the degree of risk that accurately represents a patient’s suicide-related thoughts and behavior (i.e., risk stratification) remains elusive"

---(and note--bizarrely and confusingly enough--all of these guidelines, algorithms and our suicide prevention policies/procedures and assessment instruments appear to HEAVILY EMPHASIZE the importance/criticality of using a LOW/ INTERMEDIATE/ HIGH and ACUTE/CHRONIC classification/ risk stratification approach. I'm not sure what exactly to make of this. 'There is insufficient evidence for this practice...but we're just going to go ahead and mandate its use and build our policies/procedures around it as a paradigm.'

• Weak against (or “We suggest not offering this option …”)
- [using just one method} When evaluating suicide risk, we suggest against the use of a
single instrument or method (e.g., structured clinical interview,
self-report measures, or predictive analytic models)


• Strong against (or “We recommend against offering this option …”

none

----------------Notably absent from these guidelines / the professional literature:

- [our no show follow-up policy/procedure] YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST IN EVERY CASE OF EVERY SINGLE PATIENT YOU TREAT EVEN IF THEY NEVER HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT OR REPORTED THINKING ABOUT SUICIDE EVER EVER IN THEIR LIVES AND STATE THAT THEY WOULD NEVER DO IT FOR XYZ REASONS (FOR LIVING) IN 1,000,000 YEARS...IF THEY NO-SHOW YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST CALL X3 TIMES (AND DOCUMENT) WITHIN A WEEK OF THEIR NO-SHOW AND IF THEY DO NOT PICK UP AT THE THIRD PHONE CALL YOU MUST CONDUCT AND DOCUMENT IN THE MEDICAL RECORD AN 'EVALUATION OF IMMINENT RISK' AND DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO SEND THE POLICE TO THEIR HOME TO DO A WELFARE/SAFETY CHECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- [the requirement to 'update' various things (C-SSRS [via clinical reminders], CSRE, Suicide Safety Plans) on an ANNUAL basis. This appears completely arbitrary but is SO emphasized in terms of implementation (e.g., 'chart audits' by non-providers).

- [emphasis on using the C-SSRS as a follow-up to a 'positive' screen on the PHQ-9] Maybe I missed it in the full guidelines...but I didn't see this apparent 'cornerstone' of our 'policies/practices' of PHQ-9 --> C-SSRS --> CSRE stratification for suicide risk assessment that we've been hammered on implementing for the past several years. Is this a change from the prior (2013) guidelines/analysis? Are they going to change/update our approach?
 
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Obviously, as VA psychologists we are taught to use CSSRS, CSRE, and safety planning based on set criteria and expectations by our SOPs handed down. It is true, the ability to predict risk is very difficult and is basically slightly better than chance. However, I will add that I tend to use a multi-method, almost actuarial approach. When I use the CSSRS and/or CSRE, they are just but of one or two data points I use. I approach my risk evaluations using a theoretical framework that was proposed by T Joiner. I am looking broadly for data to support 1. perceived sense of burdensomeness, 2., social alienation/thwarted belonging, and 3. habituation to death, and when all three are present (especially the third variable MUST be present), then the likelihood for suicide attempts and completions are elevated. So, I am also looking for information from those measures but also throughout my clinical interview and other measures I might use in my initial eval that would help me fulfill those 3 factors. I also have a little disclaimer blurb I have below my risk evaluation, which is written in pros format. This is an example of mine I post in all of my reports, therapy notes, etc.

It is this provider’s opinion that patient demonstrated low acute and chronic risk for suicide and homicide at the present evaluation. Results from a C-SSRS administered on XXX produced a negative screen. Results from the PHQ-9 demonstrated a denial of item 9 (e.g., suicidal ideations). Patient denied current S/HI, intent, and plans. Furthermore, patient denied a history of ever engaging in suicidal and homicidal ideations, planning, and behaviors. Patient also denied a history of parasuicidal behaviors in their lifetime. Patient did not give voice to having a perceived sense of burdensomeness, social alienation, nor having a habituation to death (i.e., three factors that when all are present, increase the likelihood for one to attempt or complete suicide).

***Note*** The ability to accurately predict risk of homicidal and suicidal behavior is limited by the absence of instruments and assessment techniques with sufficient sensitivity and specificity to reliably make such a prediction in an individual case, particularly given the low base rate of the behavior, complexity of situational factors leading to suicide and/or homicide, and high potential for identification of false positives. The primary way to manage risk in this case is to encourage treatment and continue close monitoring of the patient’s functioning. ***Note***

This blurb markedly changes when evidence makes these impressions different. If I see a history of CSRE evaluations or previous CSSRS screenings, I will write "CSSRS screenings dating back to XXX were negative/positive/variable, with their most recent positive screening being on XXX. Patient's most recent CSRE conducted on XXX indicated patient to be at low acute but intermediate chronic risk for evaluation. An active suicide safety plan was found to be on file effective XXXX. This provider and patient reviewed their most recent safety plan in which patient confirmed said plan to be accessible, useful, and relevant in their independent efforts to maintain safety."

I write my evals like this rather than use checkboxes which I see a majority of providers do, because I approach these evals a bit more comprehensively using multiple datapoints from a longitudinal perspective to really attempt to showcase that I am trying the best I can with the lackluster of resources and measures we have...which is essentially a multi-factorial approach to doing these evals. I prefer that over some of the alternatives I've seen.

These are some examples, but by no means represent the majority. As a psychologist in a SUD clinic where I am treating co-occuring SUD with chronic pain, or trauma, insomnia, SMI, there is immense variability in risk assessments, but, I find having a frank, and on going conversation pertaining to suicide makes it less taboo and helps shift the topic to be a focus of intervention from the beginning. It helps teach the patient that there is significant responsibility on their ends to ensure safety, but highlighting that they are not going at this alone, which is where I can be of help. They understand methods to use in the event they have SI, or that evolves more into urges, intentions, planning, etc., and how they can mitigate that effectively and realistically.
 
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Yeah, suicide prevention has a lot of stuff that isn't evidence-based. It gets even worse if you think about the research on hospitalization being iatrogenic for suicidality.

I have six patients scheduled today, so far all have shown, and I am STRUGGLING. I recognize that most people have six minimum and I am a wimp, but man I don't know how they do it.
 
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My happy place is four people. Five is tolerable. Six is my absolute limit. My attention is split so many ways and the constant mental transitions on top of seeing six people is absolutely too much.
 
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My happy place is four people. Five is tolerable. Six is my absolute limit. My attention is split so many ways and the constant mental transitions on top of seeing six people is absolutely too much.

It's all the admin stuff on top of it, too. And secure messages, patient calls, etc.
 
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It's all the admin stuff on top of it, too. And secure messages, patient calls, etc.
Agreed.

T/ Th I have six (including one 90 min intake) scheduled and that is too much. Especially when everyone shows. And add in crisis calls, child protective reports, getting workbooks photocopied/ in the mail (packets) for CPT, etc. Everything is 'self-serve' for clinicians at VA. That doesn't help.
 
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Yeah, suicide prevention has a lot of stuff that isn't evidence-based. It gets even worse if you think about the research on hospitalization being iatrogenic for suicidality.

I have six patients scheduled today, so far all have shown, and I am STRUGGLING. I recognize that most people have six minimum and I am a wimp, but man I don't know how they do it.

It's all the admin stuff on top of it, too. And secure messages, patient calls, etc.

Do less. I cap myself at seeing a max of 4 patients a day. I tell folks to give me 48 hours to get back to them if they call me, and I never use secure messaging with my patients, so I don't have that problem. Also, I screen my calls, I always let calls go to VM. I slack off as I do not do the whole 3 phone calls a letter for patients who no show. I do one call (the moment they no show me) and then have my PSA send a no show letter. I am burnt out, so my advice may not be the best, but I am doing the best I can.
 
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Do less. I cap myself at seeing a max of 4 patients a day. I tell folks to give me 48 hours to get back to them if they call me, and I never use secure messaging with my patients, so I don't have that problem. Also, I screen my calls, I always let calls go to VM. I slack off as I do not do the whole 3 phone calls a letter for patients who no show. I do one call (the moment they no show me) and then have my PSA send a no show letter. I am burnt out, so my advice may not be the best, but I am doing the best I can.

Yeah, I've been inspired by your approach in a lot of ways! The only thing is we have to do secure messaging. They have someone who stays VERY on top of us.
 
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Yeah, I've been inspired by your approach in a lot of ways! The only thing is we have to do secure messaging. They have someone who stays VERY on top of us.

You have to use secure message or you have to answer secure messages within 3 days? We have to do the latter but I encourage all my patients to call me so I never get any secure messages.
 
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You have to use secure message or you have to answer secure messages within 3 days? We have to do the latter but I encourage all my patients to call me so I never get any secure messages.

We have to respond. The issue is that I have to use secure messaging for some things, like sending patients forms or documents.
 
We have to respond. The issue is that I have to use secure messaging for some things, like sending patients forms or documents.

Gotcha, yeah there is not a great way around that if they are not there in person.
 
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I will say that with all the (justified) complaining I've done about the VA, one silver lining is, I am just barely 2 years post-doc/post-licensure and I now make $142,038 with the VA. I am technically a generalist, not neuro or any other specialty provider in the VA....just a warm body with a pulse/license making this much. It's a nice feeling. I am cherishing this moment.
 
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The pay increase has definitely improved my tolerance for some of the BS.
 
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I will say that with all the (justified) complaining I've done about the VA, one silver lining is, I am just barely 2 years post-doc/post-licensure and I now make $142,038 with the VA. I am technically a generalist, not neuro or any other specialty provider in the VA....just a warm body with a pulse/license making this much. It's a nice feeling. I am cherishing this moment.
How??
 
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The VA I work for is in a higher CoL area (but not ridiculous), but the biggest factor is the SSR pay. Basically, they remove the locality pay portion and calculate a % from your base (they calculated 68% for us) and then add that back onto your base. So, as long as you stay there, your pay will adjust accordingly with that rate. For example, a GS-12 step 1 gets $119,446, a GS-13 step 1 gets $142,038, a GS-14 step 1 gets $167,845, a GS-15 step 1 gets $197,430. They cap us out at $212,100.
 
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They finally decided to try and stop the hemorrhaging of providers?

They think by throwing tons of money at the problem that it will stop people from leaving - my suspicion is that it will temporarily keep folks onboard until they realize that the systemic BS that is the root cause(s) may be too great to stay on board. For now, anytime crap happens, I will just silently chant to myself "remember, $142K" over and over again until I can calm down....it's kind of like mental imagery exercises but with money :)
 
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The VA I work for is in a higher CoL area (but not ridiculous), but the biggest factor is the SSR pay. Basically, they remove the locality pay portion and calculate a % from your base (they calculated 68% for us) and then add that back onto your base. So, as long as you stay there, your pay will adjust accordingly with that rate. For example, a GS-12 step 1 gets $119,446, a GS-13 step 1 gets $142,038, a GS-14 step 1 gets $167,845, a GS-15 step 1 gets $197,430. They cap us out at $212,100.
That's great! Was your SSR pay negotiated when you were hired? Or after?
 
They finally decided to try and stop the hemorrhaging of providers?

They treated everyone like crap during the pandemic. Tried to force providers back into the office in 2021 and started yelling about RVUs. A whole lot of people quit for remote jobs and now they are throwing money at us to stop the bleeding.
 
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I was happy with the pay increase, but then I found out other facilities got MUCH more than we did. Also apparently they asked for more but were denied. Boo-urns.

They treated everyone like crap during the pandemic. Tried to force providers back into the office in 2021 and started yelling about RVUs. A whole lot of people quit for remote jobs and now they are throwing money at us to stop the bleeding.

My facility avoided that by never allowing people remote work in the first place (or, rather, making them jump through excessive hoops before they were approved). Most of us were in the office during ALL of the pandemic, even though we were doing meetings, appts, etc all virtually. I didn't even bother trying to apply for remote work because I knew it was tied to productivity. I'm under the CBOC division, but I believe the MH division at the main hospital was even worse as they kept insisting on in-person appts for the longest time.
 
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That's great! Was your SSR pay negotiated when you were hired? Or after?

It was already negotiated and approved August of last year prior to my starting, but it literally took them a year to finally implement it as they were waiting for the bean counters in DC to get their act together. But then again, when you have a bunch of psychologists trying to lead stuff they tend to be less confrontational and be more prone to acquiescing to people for the sake of not making waves, so it substantially delayed our payout. I am getting about $18K in backpay this Friday, so that's nice.
 
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I was happy with the pay increase, but then I found out other facilities got MUCH more than we did. Also apparently they asked for more but were denied. Boo-urns.



My facility avoided that by never allowing people remote work in the first place (or, rather, making them jump through excessive hoops before they were approved). Most of us were in the office during ALL of the pandemic, even though we were doing meetings, appts, etc all virtually. I didn't even bother trying to apply for remote work because I knew it was tied to productivity.

Ours was on the higher end, but we are in the HCOL area in our region and had major bleeding of staff. Most of the psychology leadership in my dept quit in 2021/22.
 
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They treated everyone like crap during the pandemic. Tried to force providers back into the office in 2021 and started yelling about RVUs. A whole lot of people quit for remote jobs and now they are throwing money at us to stop the bleeding.

Eating Popcorn GIF by Originals


Me caring about RVUs.
 
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Eating Popcorn GIF by Originals


Me caring about RVUs.

Caring depends on your personal situation. EDRP and, I believe, retention bonuses are tied to getting a full successful review. If you fall under the 80% mark, then you have a problem with keeping some of the money they are throwing at us. Beyond that RVUs don't matter.
 
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Caring depends on your personal situation. EDRP and, I believe, retention bonuses are tied to getting a full successful review. If you fall under the 80% mark, then you have a problem with keeping some of the money they are throwing at us. Beyond that RVUs don't matter.

I don't do EDRP, and I don't do/care about bonuses....again I am not going to exactly miss that Red Lobster gift card for hitting my RVU goals. Heck, my chief told us we had to offer a training rotation and I was like "nope...not doing that." I was told that could affect my performance rating. I don't really care if it does.
 
It was already negotiated and approved August of last year prior to my starting, but it literally took them a year to finally implement it as they were waiting for the bean counters in DC to get their act together. But then again, when you have a bunch of psychologists trying to lead stuff they tend to be less confrontational and be more prone to acquiescing to people for the sake of not making waves, so it substantially delayed our payout. I am getting about $18K in backpay this Friday, so that's nice.
I wonder if it's possible to negotiate something like this post-hire...
 
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I don't do EDRP, and I don't do/care about bonuses....again I am not going to exactly miss that Red Lobster gift card for hitting my RVU goals.

Performance bonuses are red lobster money. The retention bonuses were significant.
 
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