VA Mental Health Provider Venting / Problem-solving / Peer Support Thread

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What is the private rvu/productivity requirement? Office based or facility? Is it in geriatrics? Do you want to be in geriatrics?
Just found out this week - 3 intakes + 19 follow-up appointments + one open day for walk-ins + 4 hours for meetings and training requirement/week. No group is required; however, it is encouraged to start a group if interested. Now I feel horrible when I look at some of the long-term patients in their eyes with the thought of considering leaving in the back of my head.
 
It is your choice and may be a bit of a tough one. Geriatrics has historically been one of the less competitive areas and I have never struggled to get a job. That said, I am not sure how the new geropsych boarding and more formalized post-docs will affect the market for competitive locales/jobs in CLC/HBPC. I have certainly been having similar thoughts recently, but I have a decade in geriatric practice at this point. I think it would depend on if you want to stay at this particular location or planned to move to a different locale anyway.

I would also push HR and your dept chief once more before leaving. Let them know that EDRP was important and without then fulfilling that obligation you may need to pursue other opportunities (only if that would actually make you stay).
I gathered the courage to send an email to HR with an ultimatum after receiving a tentative offer. My supervisor followed up with HR and demanded an answer before the end of the business day. HR finally responded with some movements. It is hopeful, but still uncertain. Keeping my fingers crossed. 🙂
 
I should've specified that I think any new patients were first sent to their primary care team, who then may have referred them to PCMHI, who then decided whether they would stay in PCMHI or be sent to specialty MH.

MH did also see walk-ins and I believe would then direct-schedule them into the MH intake clinic as appropriate. But I want to say policy was for patients to initially go through Primary Care if they were new patients or hadn't been in MH in a few years.
 
That's what I thought.

Although it was always a stretch to expect PCMHI to actually be/become a specialty "health psychology service"... and don't think it ever really was despite several years of "health behavior championing" in the mid 2010's (don't think the Health & Behavior codes have worked out at all, for anyone), I certainly don't think it was ever suppose to be diet OPMH, or a "Mental Health Access Clinic" that picks up slack from the general mental health service? I think that idea may have come up in the latter 2010s as a reaction to the waitlist/Shinseki scandal? @cara susanna ?

Yes, I definitely think it's a reaction to the push for access, which seems to have started with the "waitlist" scandal. As someone who was in both PCMHI and OPMH even concurrently, I see the temptation. PCMHI has open access and therefore a lot more on-paper availability than OPMH. Especially if PCMHI is still struggling with getting referrals. I know that our PCMHI open access often went unfilled for a while because providers would just place consults instead of doing warm handoffs. Plus PCMHI does brief therapy, and if you have patients with milder symptoms they may do just as well over there. The problem is that isn't really the purpose of PCMHI, they exist to serve the PACT.
 
Serving MHC as an access clinic is a gross misuse of PCMHI and is one of the reasons I left the VA. And PCMHI should also not be the walk in clinic for the whole system. SMH. All a way to fudge the numbers and make access look better than it is.
This is my opinion. At my current clinic it feels we are barely doing true PCMHI. We’re the walk-in clinic, which happens to receive referrals from the PACTs.
 
So...the new EHR system...

I haven't seen it in action, but it doesn't seem to be going well.

Yup, a national VA rollout not going well....shocking. If the RQI rollout is any indication, they should have all the kinks worked out right before they replace it with a new software system.
 
Oh no! What's wrong with it?
What's not wrong with it...delays, overbudget, safety concerns, training issues...the usual.

https://www.fedscoop.com/lawmakers-...erner-health-records-system-to-ohio-facility/


 
What's not wrong with it...delays, overbudget, safety concerns, training issues...the usual.

Lawmakers raise concerns over VA rollout of Cerner health records system to Ohio facility - FedScoop



"VA plans to review the IT and physical infrastructure at every facility in the VA system and "subsequently deploy based on which sites are in the greatest state of readiness," she testified."
Translation: 'We're going to pick the next test site by throwing darts at a state-by-state map of the US"

"He cited serious “governance and management challenges” that have dogged it from the outset, saying, “that’s on us," as reported by The Washington Post."
Little known fact: He said this while wearing a '#We'reAllinThisTogether' t-shirt and slippers (right one labeled 'WHOLE,' left one labeled 'HEALTH').

"Success starts from the top, establishing a clear governance process and expectations allow an organization to remain agile and identify and resolve issues. We have not done a good enough job articulating to VA end users why this transformation is so important for veterans, the benefits it will achieve for the enterprise and we will partner with VA to change this," he testified.
Translation: "Suck it, taxpayers."

"We will remedy that going forward. One way [to improve training] is to make sure there is a holistic end-to-end workflow discussion with end-users. Users will participate from design through the testing and into the training,"
Translation: "I get paid sheeeeetloads of money to pull phrases out of my bunghole and you can't do anything about it."

"holistic end-to-end workflow discussion???????"
 
"VA plans to review the IT and physical infrastructure at every facility in the VA system and "subsequently deploy based on which sites are in the greatest state of readiness," she testified."
Translation: 'We're going to pick the next test site by throwing darts at a state-by-state map of the US"

"He cited serious “governance and management challenges” that have dogged it from the outset, saying, “that’s on us," as reported by The Washington Post."
Little known fact: He said this while wearing a '#We'reAllinThisTogether' t-shirt and slippers (right one labeled 'WHOLE,' left one labeled 'HEALTH').

"Success starts from the top, establishing a clear governance process and expectations allow an organization to remain agile and identify and resolve issues. We have not done a good enough job articulating to VA end users why this transformation is so important for veterans, the benefits it will achieve for the enterprise and we will partner with VA to change this," he testified.
Translation: "Suck it, taxpayers."

"We will remedy that going forward. One way [to improve training] is to make sure there is a holistic end-to-end workflow discussion with end-users. Users will participate from design through the testing and into the training,"
Translation: "I get paid sheeeeetloads of money to pull phrases out of my bunghole and you can't do anything about it."

"holistic end-to-end workflow discussion???????"
That was the exact phrase I was going to single out to say--is that even a legitimate collection of words?

I also remember hearing/reading that there were substantial problems at the site where they did the trial/initial launch, and that they were just going to go ahead and continue deploying it nationwide anyway.
 
That was the exact phrase I was going to single out to say--is that even a legitimate collection of words?

I also remember hearing/reading that there were substantial problems at the site where they did the trial/initial launch, and that they were just going to go ahead and continue deploying it nationwide anyway.
You know what the really funny thing is? Even though that phrase is a perfectly-crafted bit of bureaucratic gobbledygook that, essentially, is them 'casting a spell' on their audience (they think) in order to attempt to fool them into believing that they are actually going to be accountable in the future (we all know that is not true).........I know exactly what they are (falsely) promising. It's the same thing they have failed to do (already) even prior to any kind of 'new' EHR rollout: get feedback from the providers (the end-users) about the inefficiencies, headaches, dead-ends, redundancies, and various other self-injury-inducing aspects of our daily workload and documentation systems so that we can smooth out the corners and make life manageable for providers. I have always said that we need to hire a few human factors psychologists to assess and give feedback on the entire system. But if they have NEVER done any of this before, why would I think they would do it now? They seem inclined to drop all kinds of wonderful speech in front of Congress and the TV cameras. I'll believe it when I see it.
 
Hello fellow VA providers! I just started my first grown up position at the VA a few weeks ago. I don't have too many gripes to post about just yet (jk...why is HR the way they are?), but I thought maybe people would have some insight since this is a VA specific thread.

As I am just starting out, I am beginning to think about professional growth opportunities in the VA to get involved in. One I'm considering is contributing to our site's Disruptive Behavior Committee. I skimmed the DBC guidebook some and, reading between the lines, it did suggest that it could be stressful work because you would have to juggle pissed off employees, staff, and patients. Which, of course, makes sense. But it also made me pause. Before I start initiating conversations with folks involved in the committee at my site, I was wondering if anybody here has had any experience and/or thoughts. Is this a thankless job?
 
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Hello fellow VA providers! I just started my first grown up position at the VA a few weeks ago. I don't have too many gripes to post about just yet (jk...why is HR the way they are?), but I thought maybe people would have some insight since this is a VA specific thread.

As I am just starting out, I am beginning to think about professional growth opportunities in the VA to get involved in. One I'm considering is contributing to our site's Disruptive Behavior Committee. I skimmed the DBC guidebook some and, reading between the lines, it did suggest that it could be stressful work because you would have to juggle pissed off employees, staff, and patients. Before I start initiating conversations with folks involved in the committee at my site, I was wondering if anybody here has had any experience and/or thoughts. Is this a thankless job?
Is this a thankless job? yes

So, You just started your first adult job, have barely gotten out of HR and started the actual clinical portion of your job, and your first instinct is to get on an extra committee that decides what to do with violent people that the VA is not allowed to ban from the hospital? You know you don't get paid anymore for getting stabbed/shot/punched by a disgruntled employee, patient, etc, right?!?

Slow your roll, get your feet under you for a minute, make sure you are successful at the job they are paying you to do, then risk your life for absolutely no money (or don't...which is my preference). This is usually a role that goes to an experienced clinician anyway.
 
Is this a thankless job? yes

So, You just started your first adult job, have barely gotten out of HR and started the actual clinical portion of your job, and your first instinct is to get on an extra committee that decides what to do with violent people that the VA is not allowed to ban from the hospital? You know you don't get paid anymore for getting stabbed/shot/punched by a disgruntled employee, patient, etc, right?!?

Slow your roll, get your feet under you for a minute, make sure you are successful at the job they are paying you to do, then risk your life for absolutely no money (or don't...which is my preference). This is usually a role that goes to an experienced clinician anyway.
Haha! I appreciate the honesty.

Let me clarify - I was not expecting to go in and chair the committee, or even be an official committee member since I know they want experienced clinicians. This was more about getting my toes wet and just providing support to the committee to help prepare me for more responsibility in the future. The DBC chair had suggested in our staff meeting reaching out to her if anybody was interested in helping the committee. It seemed pretty informal.

And it definitely wasn't my first instinct. My actual first instinct was to hide behind my clinical work and not draw attention to myself (because anxiety...lol). However, my supervisors suggested that I think of committees/programs I may want to join so that I could have some protected time and not be so overwhelmed with all clinical work. And I think it would be good for me to push myself to get more involved sooner than later because I can become complacent. But it sounds like this may not be it.
 
Haha! I appreciate the honesty.

Let me clarify - I was not expecting to go in and chair the committee, or even be an official committee member since I know they want experienced clinicians. This was more about getting my toes wet and just providing support to the committee to help prepare me for more responsibility in the future. The DBC chair had suggested in our staff meeting reaching out to her if anybody was interested in helping the committee. It seemed pretty informal.

And it definitely wasn't my first instinct. My actual first instinct was to hide behind my clinical work and not draw attention to myself (because anxiety...lol). However, my supervisors suggested that I think of committees/programs I may want to join so that I could have some protected time and not be so overwhelmed with all clinical work. And I think it would be good for me to push myself to get more involved sooner than later because I can become complacent. But it sounds like this may not be it.

That sounds good in theory, except that committee work is in addition to clinical work, not in lieu of it. They all say this because they need bodies. Read the standard VA rubric and see what is a critical area and what is not. Let that be your guide. Also remember, these people are going to expect you to come up with goals to "better yourself" every year of your career. Best not to do it all in year one and have nothing left for year two, three, etc.
 
Hello fellow VA providers! I just started my first grown up position at the VA a few weeks ago. I don't have too many gripes to post about just yet (jk...why is HR the way they are?), but I thought maybe people would have some insight since this is a VA specific thread.

As I am just starting out, I am beginning to think about professional growth opportunities in the VA to get involved in. One I'm considering is contributing to our site's Disruptive Behavior Committee. I skimmed the DBC guidebook some and, reading between the lines, it did suggest that it could be stressful work because you would have to juggle pissed off employees, staff, and patients. Which, of course, makes sense. But it also made me pause. Before I start initiating conversations with folks involved in the committee at my site, I was wondering if anybody here has had any experience and/or thoughts. Is this a thankless job?
As demanding as full-time clinical work can be at the VA...I find the demands of clinical practice far more tolerable than dealing with just about everything and everyone else in that system. At least the identified clients have a bona fide excuse for their crazy and a formal treatment plan.
 
Hello fellow VA providers! I just started my first grown up position at the VA a few weeks ago. I don't have too many gripes to post about just yet (jk...why is HR the way they are?), but I thought maybe people would have some insight since this is a VA specific thread.

As I am just starting out, I am beginning to think about professional growth opportunities in the VA to get involved in. One I'm considering is contributing to our site's Disruptive Behavior Committee. I skimmed the DBC guidebook some and, reading between the lines, it did suggest that it could be stressful work because you would have to juggle pissed off employees, staff, and patients. Which, of course, makes sense. But it also made me pause. Before I start initiating conversations with folks involved in the committee at my site, I was wondering if anybody here has had any experience and/or thoughts. Is this a thankless job?
I'm not sure I'd recommend the DBC as the best thing to get involved in as your first extra activity at VA, unless disruptive behavior is an interest or area of expertise.

There are likely myriad other committees that might be a bit less stressful. If your site has a continuing education committee, those can be interesting. Getting involved with training can be very rewarding, and if you're a supervisor, you should (theoretically) be given a slight reprieve from a small number of clinical/patient care hours to provide supervision (e.g., 2 hours/week).

If you have some kind of weekly or other regular staff meeting for your section/area, it's almost guaranteed they'll intermittently ask for volunteers for various committees in those meetings. Things like committees related to provider burnout, implementing Whole Health policies or other VA initiatives, etc. I was never very interested in those committees, but some folks were.

In general, I've found that if you stick around long enough and meet enough people, the opportunities will find you.
 
Not in the VA anymore, but I'll echo others. Slow down, get settled in and get the lay of the land before volunteering for these extras. There will ALWAYS be extra committee work for you in the VA, if you want it. See who is on the committees, what the culture is like. YOu don't want to be volunteering for something that an added 5-10 hours a week for you, and working with insufferable people.
 
Recently running into a post-interview situation that professional references require one of which MUST be a current supervisor. Is that something new in the VA? Does that mean people would have to let the supervisor know that they are searching for alternative employment? Is this designed to protect VA employer for better retention?
 
Not in the VA anymore, but I'll echo others. Slow down, get settled in and get the lay of the land before volunteering for these extras. There will ALWAYS be extra committee work for you in the VA, if you want it. See who is on the committees, what the culture is like. YOu don't want to be volunteering for something that an added 5-10 hours a week for you, and working with insufferable people.
Good advice. You don't want to be all 'gung ho' with idealistic visions of serving the noble mission shoulder-to-shoulder among a "Band of Brothers (or Sisters)" only to discover--too late-- that you're playing out a dysfunctional and political "Game of (Potty-) Thrones." Of course, which HBO Series predominates at your VA may vary with the personalities and people involved. Best to get a sense on the casting before signing on to play a role in the series.
 
Speaking of interviews...

I'm interviewing for my first real position and I always fumble the PBI questions that ask how I incorporate multicultural values and principles to make my clients of color feel more comfortable.

"Being the PoC they requested in the first place," feels like a cheeky answer. I always have to sort of shift the question a little to make it something I can answer more eloquently. I understand the intent of the question, but what I think it's actually asking is "As a White person, how do you make your clients of color feel more comfortable?" and I am not that. I am almost always a cross-match with my clients on multiple dimensions which is an important thing to discuss. I feel like it's a missed opportunity to assess fit due to poor wording.
 
Recently running into a post-interview situation that professional references require one of which MUST be a current supervisor. Is that something new in the VA? Does that mean people would have to let the supervisor know that they are searching for alternative employment? Is this designed to protect VA employer for better retention?


Not new, it is a stupid thing HR does (maybe not everywhere based on the responses). They called my former employer before I had a chance to speak to them after I interviewed for my current position. That was awkward, but who new the VA was capable of doing something within 2 days?
 
Good advice. You don't want to be all 'gung ho' with idealistic visions of serving the noble mission shoulder-to-shoulder among a "Band of Brothers (or Sisters)" only to discover--too late-- that you're playing out a dysfunctional and political "Game of (Potty-) Thrones." Of course, which HBO Series predominates at your VA may vary with the personalities and people involved. Best to get a sense on the casting before signing on to play a role in the series.

I have found that mine most resembles the movie Office Space, just replace TPS reports with RVUs and clinical reminders.
 
Right. And replace 'pieces of flair' with political feel-good slogans and hashtags in your email signature.

#We'reAllInThisTohether
#BeThere
#ICARE
We should get some honest ones:

#Iamjusthereforthepaycheck
#Ineedstudentloanrepayment
#Iamthreeyearsawayfromfullpensionandretirement

EDIT: Can you tell I would be the guy getting in trouble for not enough pieces of flair?
 
Not new, it is a stupid thing HR does (maybe not everywhere based on the responses). They called my former employer before I had a chance to speak to them after I interviewed for my current position. That was awkward, but who new the VA was capable of doing something within 2 days?
That sounds awkward and would make me feel uncomfortable during the transition. Glad that things worked out for you 🙂
 
Speaking of interviews...

I'm interviewing for my first real position and I always fumble the PBI questions that ask how I incorporate multicultural values and principles to make my clients of color feel more comfortable.

"Being the PoC they requested in the first place," feels like a cheeky answer. I always have to sort of shift the question a little to make it something I can answer more eloquently. I understand the intent of the question, but what I think it's actually asking is "As a White person, how do you make your clients of color feel more comfortable?" and I am not that. I am almost always a cross-match with my clients on multiple dimensions which is an important thing to discuss. I feel like it's a missed opportunity to assess fit due to poor wording.
Hi Shiori - I have some thoughts about this. Even as a POC, I think cultural humility is extremely important because as you know experiences across groups and even within group members are never the same. More importantly, their perceptions of those experience can differ. So I use the opportunity to express this awareness, and my understanding of intersectionality, and then emphasize my work collaborating with the patient to formulate an individualized case conceptualization in order to provide personalized care for everyone's unique needs. I discuss listening with an open ear and my efforts to not make any assumptions about a person, their experience and perspectives based on my understanding of their histories. So I think balancing this humility/curious/individualized approach with your ability to validate minority stress and build strong alliances could be an effective approach (if it feels right to you).
 
Not in the VA anymore, but I'll echo others. Slow down, get settled in and get the lay of the land before volunteering for these extras. There will ALWAYS be extra committee work for you in the VA, if you want it. See who is on the committees, what the culture is like. YOu don't want to be volunteering for something that an added 5-10 hours a week for you, and working with insufferable people.
I should have mentioned that the current chair of the DBC was a previous mentor I have a good relationship with and enjoyed working with, and I also have a background in DBT, so I didn't just close my eyes and pick the first committee I pointed to and was like, "That's it! The Disruptive Behavior Committee is THE ONE."

But yes, I'll follow everyone's sage advice and sit back, pay attention, and trust I'll end up where I should be. Thanks all for the great advice!
 
Hi Shiori - I have some thoughts about this. Even as a POC, I think cultural humility is extremely important because as you know experiences across groups and even within group members are never the same. More importantly, their perceptions of those experience can differ. So I use the opportunity to express this awareness, and my understanding of intersectionality, and then emphasize my work collaborating with the patient to formulate an individualized case conceptualization in order to provide personalized care for everyone's unique needs. I discuss listening with an open ear and my efforts to not make any assumptions about a person, their experience and perspectives based on my understanding of their histories. So I think balancing this humility/curious/individualized approach with your ability to validate minority stress and build strong alliances could be an effective approach (if it feels right to you).

I was going to say this less eloquently when I had a minute, but there you go. Even being a POC, we all have different experiences and being a POC in NYC is different from being a POC in the Deep South, is different from being a POC who is LGBTQ+. This is where big words like intersectionality come in. I would also consider if that intersectionality needs to be addressed in the context of the issue you are dealing with (I may not need you delving into my cultural identity while treating insomnia or issues related to a health condition, I may need it if you are treating my trauma or other more complex issues).
 
I was going to say this less eloquently when I had a minute, but there you go. Even being a POC, we all have different experiences and being a POC in NYC is different from being a POC in the Deep South, is different from being a POC who is LGBTQ+. This is where big words like intersectionality come in. I would also consider if that intersectionality needs to be addressed in the context of the issue you are dealing with (I may not need you delving into my cultural identity while treating insomnia or issues related to a health condition, I may need it if you are treating my trauma or other more complex issues).
To add to this, I typically respond by saying that “POC” is a broad category, and we all have different experiences based on ethnic identity (including within racial categories) as well as things you mentioned like location, or other aspects of identity like gender and sexual orientation. I’m used to being requested by clients initiating therapy, and we tend to speak about similarities and differences between us. Even if we have the same racial and ethnic identity, gender, age/generation, and where we grew up play a huge part in our values. We may actually be worlds apart.
 
That sounds awkward and would make me feel uncomfortable during the transition. Glad that things worked out for you 🙂
Not as awkward as when the employees I was onboarding/training found out I was leaving. Just a part of life. I was there for several months after the offer and tried to leave everyone in a good place. My boss understood as it was more money for less work.
 
Hi Shiori - I have some thoughts about this. Even as a POC, I think cultural humility is extremely important because as you know experiences across groups and even within group members are never the same. More importantly, their perceptions of those experience can differ. So I use the opportunity to express this awareness, and my understanding of intersectionality, and then emphasize my work collaborating with the patient to formulate an individualized case conceptualization in order to provide personalized care for everyone's unique needs. I discuss listening with an open ear and my efforts to not make any assumptions about a person, their experience and perspectives based on my understanding of their histories. So I think balancing this humility/curious/individualized approach with your ability to validate minority stress and build strong alliances could be an effective approach (if it feels right to you).

Thanks for the responses in addition to this one! I probably struggle with my own poor wording too. The interview question didn't feel like it was written with broad, dynamic multiculturalism in mind. I have been lucky to have good supervisors who work with me on countertransference and blind spots and we get to discuss those complicated experiences. That is always in the background. The question felt asked to tick the "we talked about diversity" checkbox. Sorry that wasn't clear in my original post. I always feel a tremendous amount of pressure when I get referrals for people requesting a black therapist. I have also been on more than one interview recently that highlighted they were excited to bring me on because of all the requests they can't fill for that. I'm also applying locally and know these sites well. That context was missing from my original snarky response. Sorry, all!
 
Thanks for the responses in addition to this one! I probably struggle with my own poor wording too. The interview question didn't feel like it was written with broad, dynamic multiculturalism in mind. I have been lucky to have good supervisors who work with me on countertransference and blind spots and we get to discuss those complicated experiences. That is always in the background. The question felt asked to tick the "we talked about diversity" checkbox. Sorry that wasn't clear in my original post. I always feel a tremendous amount of pressure when I get referrals for people requesting a black therapist. I have also been on more than one interview recently that highlighted they were excited to bring me on because of all the requests they can't fill for that. I'm also applying locally and know these sites well. That context was missing from my original snarky response. Sorry, all!
Ugh, you have nothing to apologize for. I am truly sorry for "white-splaining" talking about diversity to you. I read back your original comment and see that you didn't actually ask for any advice and were more reflecting on the discomfort. That was my mistake. Still learning.

I'm imagining sitting in front of a panel of white people and having to answer how I approach diversity and multiculturalism and it's making me queasy just thinking about it. I imagine it feels performative.

Good luck on the interviews! I just started my first VA staff position and it feels so damn good. Now if I can only stop procrastinating on the EPPP...
 
I u
Thanks for the responses in addition to this one! I probably struggle with my own poor wording too. The interview question didn't feel like it was written with broad, dynamic multiculturalism in mind. I have been lucky to have good supervisors who work with me on countertransference and blind spots and we get to discuss those complicated experiences. That is always in the background. The question felt asked to tick the "we talked about diversity" checkbox. Sorry that wasn't clear in my original post. I always feel a tremendous amount of pressure when I get referrals for people requesting a black therapist. I have also been on more than one interview recently that highlighted they were excited to bring me on because of all the requests they can't fill for that. I'm also applying locally and know these sites well. That context was missing from my original snarky response. Sorry, all!
No need to apologize, I understood what you meant! It’s a tough situation to navigate professionally.
 
Speaking of interviews...

I'm interviewing for my first real position and I always fumble the PBI questions that ask how I incorporate multicultural values and principles to make my clients of color feel more comfortable.

"Being the PoC they requested in the first place," feels like a cheeky answer. I always have to sort of shift the question a little to make it something I can answer more eloquently. I understand the intent of the question, but what I think it's actually asking is "As a White person, how do you make your clients of color feel more comfortable?" and I am not that. I am almost always a cross-match with my clients on multiple dimensions which is an important thing to discuss. I feel like it's a missed opportunity to assess fit due to poor wording.
I fumbled the diversity questions in many interviews until post-doc. It made me very uncomfortable in trying too hard to provide an answer that was not going to make the interviewer and/or the interview panel uncomfortable. With great effort and internal struggle, my answers were often superficial and performative as if they were scripted (they were not. I was just trying not to say the wrong thing). During a meeting in my post-doc training year, the training committee solicited feedback from us about how to enhance their interview process for the upcoming year cohorts of interns and post-docs. I finally gathered enough courage to gracefully verbalize my situational discomfort as a clinician of color when answering diversity questions during interviews. I respectfully shared a perspective from my minority status. I pointed out that when these interview questions were formulated from a majority position, it puts clinicians of color in an awkward position as our perceptions of diversity differ and depend upon where we stand in our subgroup or intersection of subgroups. I also suggested the training committee to read the Location of Self, which I attached here. I regretted that I should have taken the risk to share my insight sooner as my feedback was well received by the committee.
 

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Thanks for the responses in addition to this one! I probably struggle with my own poor wording too. The interview question didn't feel like it was written with broad, dynamic multiculturalism in mind. I have been lucky to have good supervisors who work with me on countertransference and blind spots and we get to discuss those complicated experiences. That is always in the background. The question felt asked to tick the "we talked about diversity" checkbox. Sorry that wasn't clear in my original post. I always feel a tremendous amount of pressure when I get referrals for people requesting a black therapist. I have also been on more than one interview recently that highlighted they were excited to bring me on because of all the requests they can't fill for that. I'm also applying locally and know these sites well. That context was missing from my original snarky response. Sorry, all!

Something to remember having been on both sides of the table, VA psychologists/interviewers did not right the question. They come from a set bank of questions. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate broad, dynamic answers as we all have our opinions of what we would like to hear.
 
We should get some honest ones:

#Iamjusthereforthepaycheck
#Ineedstudentloanrepayment
#Iamthreeyearsawayfromfullpensionandretirement

EDIT: Can you tell I would be the guy getting in trouble for not enough pieces of flair?

My honest answer when people ask me why I chose the VA is that I have a strong interest in PTSD, and the VA has a lot of that.

I sometimes feel so weird when people talk about how much they love veterans and the military and that's why they're here, "serving heroes" and all that, because that isn't my reason at all. I just see veterans as people.
 
My honest answer when people ask me why I chose the VA is that I have a strong interest in PTSD, and the VA has a lot of that.

I sometimes feel so weird when people talk about how much they love veterans and the military and that's why they're here, "serving heroes" and all that, because that isn't my reason at all. I just see veterans as people.
This is interesting. I also get weirded out by that talk. I think, for me, when people talk about "the meaning of life" I always go to social connection. My research was also in socioemotional functioning. So I find myself drawn to working with those who struggle with social alienation, disconnection, and emotion dysregulation...so, Veterans. Lol

I'm also drawn to work with Veterans because I feel so many were misled, didn't really know what they were getting into (the majority are just kids!), trained to be a way that is completely incompatible with the civilian world, and then left with little support and guidance on how to assimilate back into non-military life. I just get all kinds of feelings when I think about this.
 
I fumbled the diversity questions in many interviews until post-doc. It made me very uncomfortable in trying too hard to provide an answer that was not going to make the interviewer and/or the interview panel uncomfortable. With great effort and internal struggle, my answers were often superficial and performative as if they were scripted (they were not. I was just trying not to say the wrong thing). During a meeting in my post-doc training year, the training committee solicited feedback from us about how to enhance their interview process for the upcoming year cohorts of interns and post-docs. I finally gathered enough courage to gracefully verbalize my situational discomfort as a clinician of color when answering diversity questions during interviews. I respectfully shared a perspective from my minority status. I pointed out that when these interview questions were formulated from a majority position, it puts clinicians of color in an awkward position as our perceptions of diversity differ and depend upon where we stand in our subgroup or intersection of subgroups. I also suggested the training committee to read the Location of Self, which I attached here. I regretted that I should have taken the risk to share my insight sooner as my feedback was well received by the committee.
Interesting. It's been said that, "The logical conclusion to intersectionality is individuality; the individual is the ultimate minority."
 
My honest answer when people ask me why I chose the VA is that I have a strong interest in PTSD, and the VA has a lot of that.

I sometimes feel so weird when people talk about how much they love veterans and the military and that's why they're here, "serving heroes" and all that, because that isn't my reason at all. I just see veterans as people.

Very much the same for me and I can't take the rhetoric at times. I am a geropsychologist and I enjoy what I do. Some of that is veteran specific (higher rates of late-life PTSD, higher rates of MH in the past, homelessness, lack of social connections), but most of it has been encountered outside the VA as well. The VA just happens to have better support services for geriatrics than most places outside the VA. It is also has fewer business issues than outside the VA.
 
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Something to remember having been on both sides of the table, VA psychologists/interviewers did not right the question. They come from a set bank of questions. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate broad, dynamic answers as we all have our opinions of what we would like to hear.
Yes, I've been on both ends now too and have gotten to give feedback both as a trainee and an interviewer that "standardized" questions often miss the mark and make nervous interviewees work harder to actually convey their expertise and answer the actual intended question. It's like RVUs and grids. It works for some people well enough, but it's terrible for others. It's also frustrating to be asked these same questions by literally the same people who ask for my feedback in the first place because 1) it was scary to share feedback with people who evaluate me and 2) they didn't use the feedback anyway. The VA is slow and cumbersome, but we've been venting for 28 pages for a reason.
 
I agree that PBIs are useless for clinical roles, at least in mental health. I actually have interviewed (for staff psychologist jobs) at 3 different VAs, and only 1 used PBI.
 
Yes, I've been on both ends now too and have gotten to give feedback both as a trainee and an interviewer that "standardized" questions often miss the mark and make nervous interviewees work harder to actually convey their expertise and answer the actual intended question. It's like RVUs and grids. It works for some people well enough, but it's terrible for others. It's also frustrating to be asked these same questions by literally the same people who ask for my feedback in the first place because 1) it was scary to share feedback with people who evaluate me and 2) they didn't use the feedback anyway. The VA is slow and cumbersome, but we've been venting for 28 pages for a reason.
Sometimes, it makes me wonder if people contribute to this forum could be my colleagues and supervisors. Would we interact with each other transparently? Thanks to Fan_of_Meehl for starting this space for venting and honest discussions.

We all are working within a systematic structure and are compelled to follow rules and established procedurals. As individuals, I believe we have the power to choose what kind of difference we want to make. I still remember one training committee member's response to my disclosure about my fear of making others uncomfortable in revealing my cultural and racial perspective. She said that the discomfort is already there and someone needs to verbalize it. If not me, then who?

In inpatient and residential settings, I was mistakenly identified as housekeeping or dietary staff countless times at the initial meeting with patients and/or their family members. Answering questions regarding my educational background, credential, and job experience to gain their trust before even starting the initial assessment is expected. Being asked to get them a glass water or dietary items or being interrupted with fielding questions (e.g. scheduling, transportation, wifi password, TV channel, meal time) in the middle of the initial assessment was a norm in my experience. I have worked with staff psychologists who would willingly and happily run to the dietary department to get coffee or tea and cookies and serve to the patient and/or family members exactly the way they wanted. However, they were acknowledged and appreciated as psychologists who had a good bedside manner. When I am being treated as if I were a housekeeper or dietary staff as soon as I walk into the room, it brings a different quality into the therapeutic relationship. One time, after spending 20 minutes to establish my credential and qualification to conduct the initial assessment, this family member continued interrupting me with fielding questions and I politely let her know each time that I would take care of or relay her requests/concerns to the responsible department. At the 3rd time, when she asked me to get the patient a TV remote controller, it made me just want to walk away and I endured my difficult emotions to complete the initial. Maybe, I have not lived long enough, but I have not yet heard of this kind of experience from a white peer. How often a white clinician would be challenged about their educational background, credential, and work experience? How often they would be rudely asked to fetch a TV remote controller, serve beverages, schedule transportation for medical appointments, or tell them what is on the TV after meal time to entertain their loved ones...?

When asked a diversity question, such as something like how do you engage a patient who is very different from you culturally, linguistically, ethnically.... my immediate reaction is picturing conservative white upper middle class and financially accomplished individuals with low education background who appear to be most challenging to relate and often present greatest resistance in therapy. Sitting on the other side of the table in interviews, I articulated answers by assessing the level of safety in the room (pre-pandemic time) and imaging what a white clinician would have responded in answering these diversity questions.

Some areas of country have not progressed much since the publication of I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. Silence perpetuates misunderstanding and confusion. It is hopeful to see more and more clinicians of color moving up the hierarchical ladder and navigating into influential positions where we can be representative voices of the unheard. Some times, potential consequences of being a representative voice means getting push backs and/or becoming unpopular.
 
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Thank you, Mercury in Taurus! So many of your experiences mirror mine. It's helpful to not feel alone, especially as I start applying to my first "grown up" position. My current top choice is a hospital system where I previously trained and was stopped by a physician because he didn't think my badge was real. He wouldn't let me go see my patient until my supervisor showed up and legitimized me. My badge has been scrutinized everywhere I've worked, but this was the most egregious.

My second choice is an academic medical setting I've interviewed with a couples of times where my only real interaction with it involves talking to one of the trainees who responded to me from their personal email for very valid reasons. It also has a distinctive reputation as many AMCs do.

My third choice is a VA where black patients would stop me in the hall to ask what I do and were thrilled to hear I was working on becoming a psychologist. Knowing nothing else about me, they would tell me how proud they were of my accomplishments. They would share that I reminded them of a granddaughter or sibling. They felt happy upcoming Veterans would have someone who looks like them and it was almost always tinged with sadness that they didn't have the same opportunities. That is an amazing, powerful, and devastating experience. The weight of that is immense and I never take it lightly. Never. I also did this work as several of my white clients were determined to get my opinions on BLM and "educate" me on social justice matters because I presented as "one of the good ones" and would "listen to reason." I watched the memorial of George Floyd and sobbed in my home office as I stood up for 8 minutes and 46. I went to work the next day. I ran groups and I had to regulate myself enough to hold space for the people who didn't understand the value of his life and the people who were shattered by his death and the aftermath. Fortunately, these weren't process groups and I could steer the conversation elsewhere. I worked with a lot of police officers and many shared intense ambivalence about their own actions. These were transformative interactions because of who we were in those moments. They were incredibly difficult cases that required significant growth in clinical skills very quickly.

I did the work with amazing supervisors who were so good at asking me the right questions for growth and introspection. I got to ask them and myself poignant questions about navigating overwhelming options and that facilitated productive experiences. However, I was only able to have that experience with the hard-won knowledge of other students of color. They shared who was "safe" and "unsafe" to have these conversations with. Now I pass on that same information. Almost every black student interviewee who has seen me on the panel will reach out to ask if they will be okay. I give them honest, but fair answers.

My rambling aside, I'm definitely just going to start asking for clarification during interviews when they ask about diversity, and I hope I can stop interviewing soon.
 
Sometimes, it makes me wonder if people contribute to this forum could be my colleagues and supervisors. Would we interact with each other transparently? Thanks to Fan_of_Meehl for starting this space for venting and honest discussions.

We all are working within systematic structure and are compelled to follow rules and established procedurals. As individuals, I believe we have the power to choose what kind of difference we want to make. I still remember one training committee member's response to my disclosure about my fear for making others uncomfortable in revealing my cultural and racial perspective. She said that the discomfort is already there and someone needs to verbalize it. If not me, then who?

In inpatient and residential settings, I was mistakenly identified as housekeeping or dietary staff countless times at the initial meeting with patients and/or their family members. Answering questions regarding my education background, credential, and job experience to gain their trust before even start the initial assessment is expected. Being asked to get them a glass water or dietary items or being interrupted with fielding questions (e.g. scheduling, transportation, wifi password, TV channel, meal time) in the middle of the initial assessment was a norm in my experience. I have worked with staff psychologists who would willingly and happily run to the dietary department to get coffee or tea and cookies and serve to the patient and/or family members exactly the way they wanted. However, they were acknowledged and appreciated as psychologists who had good bedside manner. When I am being treated as if I were a housekeeper or dietary staff as soon as I walk into the room, it brings a different quality into the therapeutic relationship. One time, after spending 20 minutes to establish my credential and qualification to conduct the initial assessment, this family member continued interrupting me with fielding questions and I politely let her know each time that I would take care of or relate her requests/concerns to the responsible department. At the 3rd time, when she asked me to get the patient a TV remote controller, it made me just want to walk away and I endured my difficult emotions to complete the initial. Maybe, I have not lived long enough, but I have not yet heard of this kind of experience from a white peer. How often a white clinician would be challenged about their education background, credential, and work experience? How often they would be rudely asked to fetch a TV remote controller, serve beverages, schedule transportation for medical appointments, or tell them what is on the TV after meal time to entertain their loved ones...?

When asked a diversity question, such as something like how do you engage a patient who is very different from you culturally, linguistically, ethnically.... my immediate reaction is picturing conservative white upper middle class and financially accomplished individuals with low education background who appear to be most challenging to relate and often present greatest resistance in therapy. Sitting on the other side of the table in interviews, I articulated answers by assessing the level of safety in the room (pre-pandemic time) and imaging what a white clinician would have responded in answering these diversity questions.

Some areas of country have not progressed much since the publication of I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. Silence perpetuates misunderstanding and confusion. It is hopeful to see more and more clinicians of color moving up the hierarchical ladder and navigating into influential positions where we can be representative voices of the unheard. Some times, potential consequences of being a representative voice means getting push backs and/or becoming unpopular.
Wow, awesome post. I feel like I get 1000x more out of a single, heartfelt relation of an individual's experience in this area than I get out of 1000 PowerPoints, lectures, or book chapters. Thank you for putting this out there.
 
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