VA Mental Health Provider Venting / Problem-solving / Peer Support Thread

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Man.... the VA is different now. Knew about MHS. Stayed away as much as possible. Usually wasn't a big deal until JCHAO or something.

What is "OPPE?" Nothing I ever had.
 
Man.... the VA is different now. Knew about MHS. Stayed away as much as possible. Usually wasn't a big deal until JCHAO or something.

What is "OPPE?" Nothing I ever had.

JCAHO is not even JCAHO anymore, its TJC.

OPPE is Ongoing Professional Practice Evaluation which is joint commission mandated peer review. Some managers review all of their folks. Some make psychologists review each other and hand in the forms.

Feeling old yet? How is life in the corporate jungle treating you?
 
JCAHO is not even JCAHO anymore, its TJC.

OPPE is Ongoing Professional Practice Evaluation which is joint commission mandated peer review. Some managers review all of their folks. Some make psychologists review each other and hand in the forms.

Feeling old yet? How is life in the corporate jungle treating you?
Work is called work for a reason. But I make more, have a much more flexible schedule, and multiple days during the week in which I may not actually have to talk to anyone. Depends alot on the week, what going on, projects, etc. Great for me/my personality! But.... I don't really deal with any of this particular kind of stuff anymore, so things get more fuzzy as time goes on.

I got emails about documentation stuff from time-to-time. But it never seem organized or predictable other then when JCHAO was coming or something like that, and it was usually just my boss with maybe someone else CCd. I never had a "OPPE" or anything.
 
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Work is called work for a reason. But I make more, have a much more flexible schedule, and multiple days during the week, I may not actually have to talk to anyone. Depends alot on the week, what going on, projects, etc. Great for me/my personality! But.... I don't really deal with any of this particular kind of stuff anymore, so things get more fuzzy as time goes on.

I got emails about documentation stuff from time-to-time. But it never seem organized or predictable other then when JCHAO was coming or something like that, and it was usually just my boss with maybe someone else CCd. I never had a "OPPE" or anything.

And I'm sure you miss it everyday 🤣
 
We completed OPPE either monthly or quarterly for other psychologists throughout pretty much my entire time working at VA. It was typically more a formality than anything else given the criteria, which are similar to what's been described (e.g., is informed consent to testing documented, is suicide risk evaluated, are group notes individualized). I can understand and appreciate its purpose but I don't miss its format. I would've much preferred having my reports reviewed and receiving feedback on such.

There are a few things I miss about VA. The administrative burden is not among them.
 
Y'alllll the VA continues to be excellent to you even in retirement!
I separated 6 months ago and guess what? The VA didn't submit anything to my insurance to notify them I separated so it's still active. 6. Months. Later. I realized because it's currently f'ing with some acute medical treatment I needed (claims still being sent to my federal insurance so my actually active insurance is not processing them) and learned that a recently separated colleague received some paperwork to cancel insurance which I never received. We were both told that we wouldn't have to do anything for insurance to be cancelled.

I have a few other colleagues who recently separated as well and all have had various issues with the VA not submitting paperwork upon their separation, still showing as active employees (not getting a paycheck of course- they seemed to figure out how to terminate that for all of us). This institution is truly an abomination and this all overwhelmingly validates my decision in leaving. I will be submitting a complaint (to OIG? or any other recs?) if they try to get me to back pay for insurance that should have ended 5+ months.
 
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life poop GIF


The gifs won't gif without messing with it. It's a guinea pig experiencing what appears to be existential dread.
 
The gifs won't gif without messing with it. It's a guinea pig experiencing what appears to be existential dread.

Outdated technology that won't work the way it's supposed to perfectly encapsulates some of the VAs biggest issues 🙂
 
So in addition to our quarterly peer reviews (chart reviews) of a random psychologist, we are also required to create a 30 min. powerpoint presentation to a panel of select peers and our chief on a case of a veteran we are or previously treated. We have to include various elements according to accreditation standards, and then we have to answer questions. This is done so we can maintain our privileges at the hospital. It's BS and something I just found out last week. It's yet one more component that is driving me out of the VA.
 
So in addition to our quarterly peer reviews (chart reviews) of a random psychologist, we are also required to create a 30 min. powerpoint presentation to a panel of select peers and our chief on a case of a veteran we are or previously treated. We have to include various elements according to accreditation standards, and then we have to answer questions. This is done so we can maintain our privileges at the hospital. It's BS and something I just found out last week. It's yet one more component that is driving me out of the VA.
I've seen some VAs that do this. I actually didn't think it was a horrible idea; probably a better form of peer review than chart notes, but a lot depends on how it's handled and how often it needs to be done. If it's once a year, cool. If it's once a month, that's a bit excessive.

Edit: I should add that if this is being done quarterly, I don't see a need to also review chart notes. That seems pretty redundant.
 
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So in addition to our quarterly peer reviews (chart reviews) of a random psychologist, we are also required to create a 30 min. powerpoint presentation to a panel of select peers and our chief on a case of a veteran we are or previously treated. We have to include various elements according to accreditation standards, and then we have to answer questions. This is done so we can maintain our privileges at the hospital. It's BS and something I just found out last week. It's yet one more component that is driving me out of the VA.
I hear ya. The double/triple/quadruple standards (for oversight of clinical work) are ridiculous and this is just one further example of them. Let me guess...even though you all (mental health providers? psychologists?) are expected to chart MULTIPLE notes per encounter, sometimes as many as, like SEVEN notes for a single encounter (when you include progress notes, C-SSRS screener, (if C-SSRS is positive) CSRE, Suicide Safety Plan, MH 'Diagnostic Study' Note (PCL-5/PHQ-9), Mental Health 'Assignment/Re-assignment Note,' MH Treatment Plan (in Mental Health Suite [printed out in CPRS])...no other 'providers' (nurses, physicians, podiatrists, chiropractors, etc., etc., etc.) have to adhere to such ridiculous documentation requirements.

And now you have to be subject to 'case presentations' to show that you're 'competent.' I mean, I'm not at all opposed to the concepts of continuous improvement and peer review but the double standards are ridiculous. Lemme guess, at your facility no physicians are having to do any of this crap to justify their competence in practicing medicine, right? How about physician assistant or nurse practitioners who are prescribing powerful and potentially-lethal psychotropic medication regimens including antipsychotic drugs? Do THEY have to demonstrate competence in this manner? Didn't think so. Nope. We gotta go after those mental health providers who are engaging in the obviously far more dangerous interventions like behavioral counseling and prescribing such risky G(osh) D(arned) interventions such as behavioral activation, sleep hygiene, motivational interviewing, encouraging exercise, self-monitoring, graduated exposure, progressive muscle relaxation, mindfulness, and cognitive re-appraisal. That S(hite) kills people if we just allow any doctoral-level, independently licensed provider with years of training and experience (who has also completed the 'credentialing' process every two years) dare to use them to treat clients and meet with them regularly (weekly/ bi-weekly) to monitor the results and engage in ongoing collaborative decision-making with these same veterans engaging in such obviously risky interventions with potential for catastrophic consequences.

Meanwhile, the NP down the hall can just throw around scripts (sometimes multiple) of anti-psychotics without having to 'justify' their treatment decisions or monitoring plans to anyone.

Unbelievable.
 
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So in addition to our quarterly peer reviews (chart reviews) of a random psychologist, we are also required to create a 30 min. powerpoint presentation to a panel of select peers and our chief on a case of a veteran we are or previously treated. We have to include various elements according to accreditation standards, and then we have to answer questions. This is done so we can maintain our privileges at the hospital. It's BS and something I just found out last week. It's yet one more component that is driving me out of the VA.
"According to accreditation standards." WHAT 'accreditation standards?' I hope you don't mean Joint Commission standards. That whole racket is incredibly corrupt, inconsistent, arbitrary and--in my experience with them (surveyors)--implemented by the most heavy-handed, bone-headed, authoritarian *****s on the planet.

Do you mean things like the VA/DoD Expert Consensus Guidelines (for PTSD or Major Depressive Disorder) by any chance? LOL. How many people evaluating others' clinical work (administrative or otherwise) in your experience have actually even READ the full versions of these clinical guidelines (or even the clinician versions?). Are they even familiar with them? Do THEY (at the programmatic/ administrative level) even follow them? How aggressively does your facility push telehealth and group psychotherapies (for PTSD, say)? What do the VA/DoD Expert Consensus Guidelines say about the evidentiary basis of preferring/ pushing THOSE particular interventions?
 
Apparently m.o.r.o.n. is now a no-no word.

Oh well, at least we can still call someone an idiot or obtuse or ignorant.
 
So in addition to our quarterly peer reviews (chart reviews) of a random psychologist, we are also required to create a 30 min. powerpoint presentation to a panel of select peers and our chief on a case of a veteran we are or previously treated. We have to include various elements according to accreditation standards, and then we have to answer questions. This is done so we can maintain our privileges at the hospital. It's BS and something I just found out last week. It's yet one more component that is driving me out of the VA.
Wait. The VA wants licensed psychologists from accredited training programs, internships, and post doctoral training programs to do comps (comprehensive exams) every quarter? 😂😂😂😂 whew! Pure comedy.
 
Wait. The VA wants licensed psychologists from accredited training programs, internships, and post doctoral training programs to do comps (comprehensive exams) every quarter? 😂😂😂😂 whew! Pure comedy.

If this is similar to comps in programs these days, I fear for the competence of the field. Not supportive of this type of peer review on a quarterly basis, but this requires pretty minimal work and thought to complete.
 
Apparently m.o.r.o.n. is now a no-no word.

Oh well, at least we can still call someone an idiot or obtuse or ignorant.
As it should be for lack of originality. I prefer to refer to such people as obsequious ingrates. It has a certain eloquence and one can't take offense to a term one can't understand
 
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Hey...by all means, I've heard the reasons for doing this crap. I get it. I just don't agree with it or care to do it. That's why I am actively scaling my practice to get out. Perhaps other folks are not really affected by stuff like that, and that's cool too. We are all different people with different personality styles, goals, etc. But when people sit there and wonder why the VA is hemorrhaging providers....I point to this as one significant reason. The administrative crap is what I am referring to. I like the clinical work I do, but the overburdening admin/red tape BS is more than I'd care to continue to put up with.
 
I've seen some VAs that do this. I actually didn't think it was a horrible idea; probably a better form of peer review than chart notes, but a lot depends on how it's handled and how often it needs to be done. If it's once a year, cool. If it's once a month, that's a bit excessive.

Edit: I should add that if this is being done quarterly, I don't see a need to also review chart notes. That seems pretty redundant.

We have to do quarterly chart reviews plus a yearly presentation for 30 min. to meet some standard or policy yada yada yada. I really don't care. They can keep their policies, SOPs, etc. I will not be there much longer.
 
We have to do quarterly chart reviews plus a yearly presentation for 30 min. to meet some standard or policy yada yada yada. I really don't care. They can keep their policies, SOPs, etc. I will not be there much longer.
I sometimes think that they are just trying to eventually replace the psychologists with social workers. It would be cheaper and they are, as a group, more obedient and acquiescent to the bureaucratic BS.
 
I sometimes think that they are just trying to eventually replace the psychologists with social workers. It would be cheaper and they are, as a group, more obedient and acquiescent to the bureaucratic BS.

Maybe. I know a colleague of mine told me that the reason why our SWs don't really push back (like I do) or vocally object to stuff in meetings (like I do), is that this job represents the pinnacle for them, especially in terms of $$$. I was told that SWs get better pay here compared to other organizations they might be employed by. Who knows...

I also know my worth. I have plans A-D lined up if in the event I was let go or stopped working there tomorrow. I am not worried about having a job or income. Having worked in corporate America for a number of years putting myself through school, I learned a lot of the corporate BS, put up with it, yada yada.
 
We lost two social workers in less than 3 months due to admin work/PP opportunities. They're leaving too.
Interesting!

In my local area, the VA pays somewhere between $10k more ('flagship' local hospital) to $30k more (resource starved community mental health) based on discussions I've had with folks. And at least for case management focused positions, the VA is still very desirable with more people wanting to move into the VA than leave, especially with the possibility of management down the line. SW positions always seem to get filled while it can be crickets for psychology and psychiatry.

However, SWers could absolutely exceed that amount if they wanted to do therapy 100% and especially if they can built up a cash pay caseload. But I think there's a large chunk that aren't very interested in therapy (or doing that much therapy) so the VA salary, healthcare benefits, and federal retirement might be as good as it gets.

When those 10/15/20+ year govt service emails come out, there always tends to be a couple of SWers and almost never any psychologists lol.
 
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Yeah, the two leaving are definitely more interested in therapy than case management.

I have spent a significant amount of my morning fixing errors. I feel like this will be a week where I want to quit. I have to sit through a 3 hour meeting about something irrelevant which is interrupting 3 clients in the middle of PTSD treatment. I keep dreaming of turning one of the cute little shops in my area into my PP office. Or I could turn my sunroom into a home office. I'm sure I'll change my mind again in a week.
 
Apparently there's a new VVC initiative. Great, MORE pressure to see patients via video when they either don't want to or don't have the technical capability.
Is there any money behind it? I feel like there isn't much movement until there is money attached.
 
We have to do quarterly chart reviews plus a yearly presentation for 30 min. to meet some standard or policy yada yada yada. I really don't care. They can keep their policies, SOPs, etc. I will not be there much longer.
I can understand that. Like you mentioned, we all have our own administrative BS threshold.

My take is that VA's policies regarding peer review would probably be more tolerable/palatable if they didn't have dozens of other semi-nonsensical and/or borderline-insulting administrative requirements and policies. Starting with all the hoop-jumping needed just to request annual leave. Maybe some of that's changed, and it wasn't unique to psychologists, but VA seemed at times to treat fairly highly-educated professionals like children. Although I know some of that can also vary with leadership.
 
I can understand that. Like you mentioned, we all have our own administrative BS threshold.

My take is that VA's policies regarding peer review would probably be more tolerable/palatable if they didn't have dozens of other semi-nonsensical and/or borderline-insulting administrative requirements and policies. Starting with all the hoop-jumping needed just to request annual leave. Maybe some of that's changed, and it wasn't unique to psychologists, but VA seemed at times to treat fairly highly-educated professionals like children. Although I know some of that can also vary with leadership.

Very much. My feelings towards the VA are multi-factorial and a product of an accumulation of said factors. It isn't one specific thing, but the factors have a common theme in that they are related more-so to the administrative aspect of my work. If that were to be dramatically addressed/resolved, then I think I would be more tolerant of things, but it seems never-ending and just more and more crap being added on.
 
Apparently there's a new VVC initiative. Great, MORE pressure to see patients via video when they either don't want to or don't have the technical capability.
Add to that there is zero rationale for 'pushing' vvc on people. It's not 'more effective.' I suppose to those who don't actually have to do it it is 'trendy' and nets them 'cool' points? I usually have to spend substantial time in those sessions overcoming technical issues and doing 3 way calls with the help line, which leaves less time for actual intervention.
 
I'm sure leadership sees all of the studies about how telehealth decreases no-shows and ran with it. As someone outside the VA where telehealth actually has decreased no-shows significantly, it's clear that the reasons for no-shows between VA and non-VA patients do not overlap in a way that would make this super effective.
 
Add to that there is zero rationale for 'pushing' vvc on people. It's not 'more effective.' I suppose to those who don't actually have to do it it is 'trendy' and nets them 'cool' points? I usually have to spend substantial time in those sessions overcoming technical issues and doing 3 way calls with the help line, which leaves less time for actual intervention.

There is also evidence that video is more cognitively exhausting than in-person (Zoom fatigue). If there are patients we can deliver good care to via telephone and it helps us be less fatigued or burnt out, what's the problem? Like you said, there aren't any studies showing video appts are more effective, especially with such a garbage service as VVC where, also like you said, I often will have to switch to phone anyway.
 
There is also evidence that video is more cognitively exhausting than in-person (Zoom fatigue). If there are patients we can deliver good care to via telephone and it helps us be less fatigued or burnt out, what's the problem? Like you said, there aren't any studies showing video appts are more effective, especially with such a garbage service as VVC where, also like you said, I often will have to switch to phone anyway.

Money, money, money... phone services will not be allowed forever (though psychotherapy may get a carve out) and VVC means less need for office space that the VA does not have. Personally, I am all for telehealth but VA policies, as always, have little to do with us and more to do with what some other person might do.
 
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Money, money, money... phone services will not be allowed forever (though psychotherapy may get a carve out) and VVC means less need for office space that the VA does not have. Personally, I am all for telehealth but VA policies, as always, have little to do with us and more to do with what some other person might do.
The funny thing about that is: as much sense as it makes to allow for more VVC and telework (i.e., you could basically have two or three times as many providers, if not more, for the same amount of office space), many VAs still seem to be resistant to the idea.

Or at least specifically the idea of providing VVC from your home while teleworking. They'll happily allow you to provide VVC from your VA office.

For me personally, I do generally notice that telehealth works better and is better received (for feedback) than phone. The phone can be easier, particularly for many of my elderly patients, but I strongly prefer videochat at this point. It's also, for me, less mentally taxing and more engaging.

All that being said, I still prefer in-person overall.
 
We got a survey about how we're doing as MH providers from National. Is this a good sign or a bad sign?
My vote is for 'neither.'

VA has been doing these 'surveys' for years and I've never seen any real good come of them. I used to write in paragraphs of commentary in the free response areas. I also was able through a Google search back then to see where someone had compiled all the 'free response' concerns/suggestions from MH providers on a survey and was impressed/reassured at the universality of and convergence of provider concerns nationwide. However, the silence in relation to these concerns (many of which appear repeatedly in this particular thread) voiced by a majority of providers over the years is deafening.

Besides, I've always maintained that if someone is truly interested in finding out the extent and nature of MH provider concerns in this organization they need only solicit input from providers who should be glad to tell them. The 'survey' results which, year after year, appear to indicate universal provider satisfaction and absence of burnout don't ring true to me at all based on what I hear from colleagues behind closed doors. I don't know if the issue is that providers are scared to be critical on these surveys (which are hardly truly confidential when they collect specific demographic info on you) for fear of retribution or if the category of 'mental health provider' is so broad as to encompass those who do mostly admin/champion/email duties but may see a couple of patients per week or whatever. But I've never seen the true level of distress/concerns among providers reflected in these survey results nor do they prompt any meaningful discussions of serious issues.

It's a placebo / public relations strategy, nothing more.
 
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MSAs are being directed that an appt is a cancel by patient, not a no show, as long as you reach the patient even if it's after the scheduled appt time. Why is the VA so opposed to patient accountability?

Because patriotism and Vets are too valuable of a political football. And, especially the younger cohorts, have been groomed with this level of entitlement for too long. Hard to put that genie back in its bottle.
 
The LITERAL definition of a no show is the patient not showing to the appointment. Why even bother having appt times at all??

To be honest, I'm sure the powers that be have considered making y'all do some walk-in clinic hours.
 
MSAs are being directed that an appt is a cancel by patient, not a no show, as long as you reach the patient even if it's after the scheduled appt time. Why is the VA so opposed to patient accountability?
That's...just not the correct definition.
 
MSAs are being directed that an appt is a cancel by patient, not a no show, as long as you reach the patient even if it's after the scheduled appt time. Why is the VA so opposed to patient accountability?
The LITERAL definition of a no show is the patient not showing to the appointment. Why even bother having appt times at all??
Lemme guess...some upper-mid-level bureaucrat is jonesing hard for a promotion and is eager to demonstrate 'significant reduction' in patient no-show rates during their tenure.

In the tv show "The Wire" they call it 'juking the stats.'
 
Lemme guess...some upper-mid-level bureaucrat is jonesing hard for a promotion and is eager to demonstrate 'significant reduction' in patient no-show rates during their tenure.

In the tv show "The Wire" they call it 'juking the stats.'

You know how you get a low no-show rate? Make them wait for care like the rest of the world, and if they no-show, they move to the back of the line like everyone else. My no-show rate for clinical patients is almost zero over the past few years. I think maybe 2-3. 2 of those were hospitalized the night before, and 1 died the week of the appointment and the surviving spouse wasn't exactly in the mindspace to make a bunch of phone calls to doctors.
 
You know how you get a low no-show rate? Make them wait for care like the rest of the world, and if they no-show, they move to the back of the line like everyone else. My no-show rate for clinical patients is almost zero over the past few years.

It's a pity the VA doesn't give providers autonomy. The last few years I was practicing full-time, I had a similar policy to this. If you missed, I wasn't going to chase you down. If you're capable of filling your own prescriptions, paying your bills, and making it to the local dispensary, you're capable of getting on their phone to schedule an appointment with me. I'll call during the appointment to let people know that they missed and the process to reschedule, but I'm not going to find time in my schedule, when I should be seeing other patients, to write you a letter or leave 100 voicemails.
 
It's a pity the VA doesn't give providers autonomy. The last few years I was practicing full-time, I had a similar policy to this. If you missed, I wasn't going to chase you down. If you're capable of filling your own prescriptions, paying your bills, and making it to the local dispensary, you're capable of getting on their phone to schedule an appointment with me.

Half of my patients can't independently do these things and they still make it to the appointment.
 
You know how you get a low no-show rate? Make them wait for care like the rest of the world, and if they no-show, they move to the back of the line like everyone else. My no-show rate for clinical patients is almost zero over the past few years. I think maybe 2-3. 2 of those were hospitalized the night before, and 1 died the week of the appointment and the surviving spouse wasn't exactly in the mindspace to make a bunch of phone calls to doctors.

Or charge them a fee like the private sector.

I just boggles my mind. These are ADULTS receiving HEALTHCARE. Expecting someone to show up for their damn medical appointment is a pretty low bar.
 
Or charge them a fee like the private sector.

I just boggles my mind. These are ADULTS receiving HEALTHCARE. Expecting someone to show up for their damn medical appointment is a pretty low bar.

Just depends on how much we have infantilized said adults over the years.
 
Or charge them a fee like the private sector.

I just boggles my mind. These are ADULTS receiving HEALTHCARE. Expecting someone to show up for their damn medical appointment is a pretty low bar.
I would also argue that it is iatrogenic as all hell to artificially NOT hold them accountable in this manner. It sends them the (false) socialization signal that their behavior is okay and excusable and that, therefore, it will be considered okay and excused by other (non-VA) members of society which is patently false and results in them being undersocialized which only harms them in the long run. It also reinforces schemas associated with hopelessness, powerlessness, self-trust/respect/efficacy etc.
 
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