Vaccine Fear-mongering

[TheDuder]

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Few things piss me off more than people who spread misinformation that harms the public health.

What is the appropriate response to those who insist on spreading fear about the H1N1 or seasonal flu vaccines despite the lack of evidence supporting their claims?

It's hard for me not to respond emotionally to this (and I hate that, btw). For example, a girl I know, an RN, answered on her little facebook poll that "no," she would not get the H1N1 vaccine. Um, hello?! You work in health care and refuse to get the vaccine because "it hasn't been tested." Oy vey. Speechless.

 

[Sammich117]

I don't think someone should be required to get the vaccine if they don't trust it just because they work in health care. Some people have valid concerns against it.

 

[wanderer]

I don't think someone should be required to get the vaccine if they don't trust it just because they work in health care. Some people have valid concerns against it.

Such as?

 

[bannie22]

i think as a future doctor, might want to respect each individual's perespective.

 

[bannie22]

some things in life do not need a reason. its just a choice. if we had to defend every single decision we make, life would be rather troublesome

 

[Zona Pellucida]

Half of my Immunology class was very concerned about the safety of it. I don't understand why, when it is basically the same exactly flu shot that has been given over the past few decades, except with the antigen modified (to H1N1).

I am not getting vaccinated because I believe I already had H1N1 in mid August and I just don't care very much.

 

[Wheee]

Half of my Immunology class was very concerned about the safety of it. I don't understand why, when it is basically the same exactly flu shot that has been given over the past few decades, except with the antigen modified (to H1N1).

I am not getting vaccinated because I believe I already had H1N1 in mid August and I just don't care very much.

I think the fear comes from the 1976 H1N1 vaccine problem...that's what my virology prof said. I'm too lazy to search for a reputable source, but here's wikipedia's take: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak

As to fear mongering in general, this website is funny in how it presents it: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

 

[bannie22]

^that jenny mccarthy website is so silllyyy.

 

[fahimaz7]

My school just got done with our H1N1 vaccines. Good stuff.

 

[Simplify]

The vaccine was produced on an accelerated timeline and whenever things are rushed there is an increased potential for unforeseen consequences.

It happened before.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/463869

 

[wanderer]

i think as a future doctor, might want to respect each individual's perespective.

I don't think individual perspective needs to be respected when that perspective can end up (inadvertently) harming others.

 

[Sammich117]

I don't think individual perspective needs to be respected when that perspective can end up (inadvertently) harming others.

second hand smoke hurts others and plenty of people yell about respecting smokers rights to smoke...

I know it's not an exact analogy, but I think when it comes to putting a virus inside your body when they can't guarantee 100% safety, it's kind of your call.

 

[Compass]

I don't think individual perspective needs to be respected when that perspective can end up (inadvertently) harming others.

A convicted rapist has just been brought in with multiple GSWs. Do you treat him?

 

[redsquareblack]

second hand smoke hurts others and plenty of people yell about respecting smokers rights to smoke...

I know it's not an exact analogy, but I think when it comes to putting a virus inside your body when they can't guarantee 100% safety, it's kind of your call.

Sigh... and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I'm afraid for the future of our society.

 

[Sammich117]

Sigh... and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I'm afraid for the future of our society.

Pardon me?

A lot of the vaccines will be intranasal. That means it's a live vaccine.

The flu is a virus.

Thus, putting a virus in your body.

 

[Compass]

Pardon me?

A lot of the vaccines will be intranasal. That means it's a live vaccine.

The flu is a virus.

Thus, putting a virus in your body.

You are not putting in raw flu into your body...

 

[wanderer]

A convicted rapist has just been brought in with multiple GSWs. Do you treat him?

I'm not sure how this relates to what I had mentioned, but anyways yes I would treat him. As an HCP it would be my duty to treat whoever comes to me in an emergency. I'd leave his fate (and the fates of those who are most vulnerable) to the justice system, since that is not my duty.

 

[Sammich117]

You are not putting in raw flu into your body...

Well obviously it's not raw flu.. But live virus is still in the vaccine. That was the only point I was making. There are always some risks when it comes to things like that and I think people should be able to choose to decline vaccinations.

 

[7starmantis]

You are not putting in raw flu into your body...

In the interest of honest discussion I don't think he said anything about "raw flu".

I'm not sure how this relates to what I had mentioned, but anyways yes I would treat him. As an HCP it would be my duty to treat whoever comes to me in an emergency. I'd leave his fate (and the fates of those who are most vulnerable) to the justice system, since that is not my duty.

But you won't leave others fate to the healthcare system? People should always have the right to choose, we as (future) doctors should support that.

 

[Sammich117]

In the interest of honest discussion I don't think he said anything about "raw flu".

She.

And thank you 🙂

 

[B Cereus]

Half of my Immunology class was very concerned about the safety of it. I don't understand why, when it is basically the same exactly flu shot that has been given over the past few decades, except with the antigen modified (to H1N1).

I am not getting vaccinated because I believe I already had H1N1 in mid August and I just don't care very much.

Personally, I am concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I simply feel that more tests should have been conducted. But assuming safety is not an issue, I doubt the vaccine will be effective. Please realize that simply modifying the hemagglutanin and neuraminidase molecules is not sufficient to confer resistance to the novel H1N1 virus. The influenza virus consists of 8 RNA molecules, and so it is important that the vaccine targets all molecules. Further complicating the matter is the fact that there is no single strain that causes the flu, both seasonal and H1N1. The virus is so proficient at genetic reassortment that antigenic drift most likely will render the vaccine useless. It's naive to think that an effective vaccine can be produced in mere months.

 

[7starmantis]

She.

And thank you 🙂

Sorry! Guess I'm showing my sexist bias! 😱

 

[Sammich117]

Sorry! Guess I'm showing my sexist bias! 😱

It's ok! It's pretty common on this forum.

That's why I put "I'm a girl" over my avatar 😛

 

[7starmantis]

It's ok! It's pretty common on this forum.

That's why I put "I'm a girl" over my avatar 😛

Haha, oh thanks, now I'm not only sexist, but unobservant! 🙂

Sad, I've actually noticed that before on your avatar! lol

 

[redsquareblack]

Personally, I am concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I simply feel that more tests should have been conducted. But assuming safety is not an issue, I doubt the vaccine will be effective. Please realize that simply modifying the hemagglutanin and neuraminidase molecules is not sufficient to confer resistance to the novel H1N1 virus. The influenza virus consists of 8 RNA molecules, and so it is important that the vaccine targets all molecules. Further complicating the matter is the fact that there is no single strain that causes the flu, both seasonal and H1N1. The virus is so proficient at genetic reassortment that antigenic drift most likely will render the vaccine useless. It's naive to think that an effective vaccine can be produced in mere months.

Jeezum! The stupid, it burns supernova!

You wouldn't, by any chance, have a subscription to The Atlantic, would you?

Strain match for the H1N1 is excellent. Of course, you can never be sure of vaccine efficacy until later in the season, but the initial data looks good.

There's a wealth of credible evidence that seasonal flu vaccines reduce mortality, dude. You obviously know some science. Why not go all the way, and learn the rest? Granted, it's not quite as quotable, but hey...

 

[wanderer]

But you won't leave others fate to the healthcare system? People should always have the right to choose, we as (future) doctors should support that.

Most health care workers don't voluntarily get immunization. They then pose a greater risk to the patient population by facilitating spread of the disease.

Do you think that HCWs should have the right to choose whether or not to wash their hands after dealing with patients? How about getting MMR vaccines?

 

[Snowman334]

You are not putting in raw flu into your body...

Hmmm... Strawman much? I don't believe that she stated that it is "raw flu"...

there should really be a Smile of a Strawman!

 

[redsquareblack]

Do you think that HCWs should have the right to choose whether or not to wash their hands after dealing with patients? How about getting MMR vaccines?

Mandatory hand-washing is fascism! Boo! I poop and don't wash out of principle!

 

[7starmantis]

Most health care workers don't voluntarily get immunization. They then pose a greater risk to the patient population by facilitating spread of the disease.

Do you think that HCWs should have the right to choose whether or not to wash their hands after dealing with patients? How about getting MMR vaccines?

Seriously? This is the one most commonly spouted "stats" that has basically no way of being quantified = the best response ever. People who do not get vaccinated are somehow "spreading the virus" is just simply false. Is it possible, yes, but not probable. Now unless you mean mandatory work for those sick with the flu 🙄

Yeah, and washing your hands is exactly the same thing as injecting a vaccine...right.

 

[B Cereus]

Jeezum! The stupid, it burns supernova!

You wouldn't, by any chance, have a subscription to The Atlantic, would you?

Strain match for the H1N1 is excellent. Of course, you can never be sure of vaccine efficacy until later in the season, but the initial data looks good.

There's a wealth of credible evidence that seasonal flu vaccines reduce mortality, dude. You obviously know some science. Why not go all the way, and learn the rest? Granted, it's not quite as quotable, but hey...

I don't know who told you the strain match is excellent, but obviously you are misinformed. I work with the influenza virus for a living, so I would know this. And there's no need to take a dig at my education, but if you feel so inclined, good for you.

 

[wanderer]

Seriously? This is the one most commonly spouted "stats" that has basically no way of being quantified = the best response ever. People who do not get vaccinated are somehow "spreading the virus" is just simply false. Is it possible, yes, but not probable. Now unless you mean mandatory work for those sick with the flu 🙄

Yeah, and washing your hands is exactly the same thing as injecting a vaccine...right.

An article that is somewhat relevant (perhaps there is some more relevant article out there):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8985189

I'm sure you realize that one can spread the flu before they start showing symptoms.

 

[7starmantis]

An article that is somewhat relevant (perhaps there is some more relevant article out there):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8985189

I'm sure you realize that one can spread the flu before they start showing symptoms.

From your article:

However, there have been no controlled studies to show whether this approach is effective.

Yeah, the number of people spreading flu before any symptoms is very small, I guess we should just have all HC workers on antibiotics year round too 🙄

 

[willen101383]

B cereus I see you are a MT. Hurray for all fellow MTs to MD/DOs. Sorry to hijack I just havent seen too many med techs around here haha.

 

[jckut10]

.

 

[htg2010]

here is an article about the whole anti-vaccine movement that was in the latest edition of Wired

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience

 

[oaklandguy]

I got the nasal spray vaccine for free at my Uni, haven't noticed anything bad, but have been scared nuts by everyone around me saying I will get sick or have long term affects. As for now it's been 48 hours and I'm fine.

 

[Hoody]

But live virus is still in the vaccine. That was the only point I was making.

There is no live virus in the traditional flu vaccine. none. There is weakened virus in the flu mist however.

 

[J1515]

but I think when it comes to putting a virus inside your body

🙄

 

[Sammich117]

There is no live virus in the traditional flu vaccine. none. There is weakened virus in the flu mist however.

Hence why I said in the intranasal version...

🙄

Way to take that out of context.

 

[BlueElmo]

Seriously, why are you guys arguing with Sammich. She totally makes sense, stop arguing with her.

 

[strummin]

second hand smoke hurts others and plenty of people yell about respecting smokers rights to smoke...

I know it's not an exact analogy, but I think when it comes to putting a virus inside your body when they can't guarantee 100% safety, it's kind of your call.

Oh God. I can't believe a pre-med said that. Wow. You know nothing about vaccines, do you? These people who develop vaccines aren't regular people - they're top scientists who have had years and years of experience. Even with attenuated vaccines, the chances of somebody actually developing a disease is EXTREMELY LOW - unless they're immunocompromised or have some other complications, in which they case they shouldn't have been vaccinated in the first place.

 

[dingyibvs]

Seriously? This is the one most commonly spouted "stats" that has basically no way of being quantified = the best response ever. People who do not get vaccinated are somehow "spreading the virus" is just simply false. Is it possible, yes, but not probable. Now unless you mean mandatory work for those sick with the flu 🙄

Yeah, and washing your hands is exactly the same thing as injecting a vaccine...right.

What's the difference?

As a matter of fact, your entire post seems dubious. People who do not get vaccinated will be much more likely to carry the virus and thus spreading it. Do you really need data to prove something that obvious?

 

[Sammich117]

Oh God. I can't believe a pre-med said that. Wow. You know nothing about vaccines, do you? These people who develop vaccines aren't regular people - they're top scientists who have had years and years of experience. Even with attenuated vaccines, the chances of somebody actually developing a disease is EXTREMELY LOW - unless they're immunocompromised or have some other complications, in which they case they shouldn't have been vaccinated in the first place.

a) I do actually know things about vaccines, thanks.

b) Extremely low is not the same thing as impossible

c) I'm personally going to get the vaccine. Just pointing out that I respect the fact that not everyone wants it.

 

[BlueElmo]

Oh God. I can't believe a pre-med said that. Wow. You know nothing about vaccines, do you? These people who develop vaccines aren't regular people - they're top scientists who have had years and years of experience. Even with attenuated vaccines, the chances of somebody actually developing a disease is EXTREMELY LOW - unless they're immunocompromised or have some other complications, in which they case they shouldn't have been vaccinated in the first place.

No they aren't regular people. They're brothers and sisters of Superman with super duper powers and ability to make vaccines.

 

[dingyibvs]

a) I do actually know things about vaccines, thanks.

b) Extremely low is not the same thing as impossible

c) I'm personally going to get the vaccine. Just pointing out that I respect the fact that not everyone wants it.

I'll "respect" their decision in the sense that they control their own lives, but I won't respect it on principle because I believe it's an extremely selfish decision.

 

[7starmantis]

What's the difference?

As a matter of fact, your entire post seems dubious. People who do not get vaccinated will be much more likely to carry the virus and thus spreading it. Do you really need data to prove something that obvious?

Oh god! This is the future of our profession? I mean seriously, we dont need something as stupid as data when things are obvious! 🙄

This post scares the hell out of me!

 

[Sammich117]

I'll "respect" their decision in the sense that they control their own lives, but I won't respect it on principle because I believe it's an extremely selfish decision.

just out of curiosity - do you think it's selfish if people are declining it because it's in such short supply? Because I know that's playing a role in some people's decisions.

 

[sassilysweet]

If people don't want the vaccine, then fine, let them not get it. There are people clamoring at the labs I am doing clinicals at to get any version of the vaccine available. There is not enough available for everyone who wants it so why bother arguing? People are lining up for the nasal version which is supposedly only 30% effective.

If they are healthcare workers, then they just need to be aware of their symptoms and stay out of work for the week or so if they might have it.

I think it is more important for those with underlying conditions to be aware of their surroundings and maybe staying home more if they are that worried about it. If they don't want the vaccine then they can wear a stupid mask all day every day.

In general I get really irritated about people who freak out about childhood vaccinations, but the flu vaccine is a bit more iffy.

 

[Sammich117]

For what it's worth, I'm not saying people shouldn't get vaccinated.

Just explaining that people should have a choice.

 

[dingyibvs]

Oh god! This is the future of our profession? I mean seriously, we dont need something as stupid as data when things are obvious! 🙄

This post scares the hell out of me!

Chances of you dying if you were dropped 30,000 feet from an airplane is higher than if you were dropped half a foot from some stairs, but there is no data to support that statement, so it's obviously a spurious claim, right?

just out of curiosity - do you think it's selfish if people are declining it because it's in such short supply? Because I know that's playing a role in some people's decisions.

No, I wouldn't. If supply isn't a problem, though, then I would.