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Vegetarians?

Started by binko
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binko

binko

At home I want you to call me Dr. Marvin.
10+ Year Member
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So it is my unverified hypothesis that there is a higher incidence of vegans/vegetarians interested in osteopathic medicine than in allopathic.

I saw someone mention in the "LOR from my derm" thread that they are vegan, which got me all excited because I'm vegan too and don't know any other vegan pre-meds.

Anyway, let's discuss vegan/vegetarian issues as they pertain to medical school and/or the osteo/allo philosophies.
 
Well I'm a vegetarian but I don't think that had anything to do with why i chose DO vs MD...

I guess I had never thought about it until I read this post as well.
 
detroitdo said:
Well I'm a vegetarian but I don't think that had anything to do with why i chose DO vs MD....
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Same here. I do it for reasons of enthalpy...the 10% rule and all that. Not really a MD/DO issue. Also, my vegetarianism was spurred by my goal of losing 35+ kg...I was a rather obese teenager and not eating meat + exercise really helped me in my goal.

Everyone has their own reasons for going veggy, and I should think those reasons are independent of the MD/DO debate
 
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Perhaps the OP is making the connection between sound nutrition and the body's ability to heal itself and stay healthy.

I wonder if many med schools accommodate a veggie lifestyle in their food courts and meal plans.
 
never really thought about any connection between being a vegetarian and the DO philosophies. While it might be healthier and be better for the body in terms of lower cholesterol and what not, it can be detrimental if you're not getting all of your nutrients that you body needs in.

I know nova for sure accommodates vegetarians and vegans in their food courts since when I was down there I took a walk to check this out myself. Even for their lunch during the interview they had the option of a portobello mushroom sandwich for people who didn't eat meat....much better, in my opinion, than the ordinary salads that other places had during interview lunches.
 
Chocolate Bear said:
Perhaps the OP is making the connection between sound nutrition and the body's ability to heal itself and stay healthy.
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I know that's what the AOA website says makes DOs different from MDs, that DOs believe in the mind/body connection, but honestly, what MD doesn't believe in sound nutrition and the body's ability to heal itself?

Perhaps the underlying philosophies of MDs/DOs differed in Dr. Still's time, but not any more. I think this is a good case in point
 
Well I am pre-MD (starting med school in August) and I'm a vegetarian! So I guess I am one exception to your theory 🙂 although I do eat fish, so perhaps I don't count as I am not a "true" vegetarian...
 
iloveDrStill said:
I know that's what the AOA website says makes DOs different from MDs, that DOs believe in the mind/body connection, but honestly, what MD doesn't believe in sound nutrition and the body's ability to heal itself?

Perhaps the underlying philosophies of MDs/DOs differed in Dr. Still's time, but not any more. I think this is a good case in point
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I'm not debating the philosophy differences or lack thereof. Merely speculating on the rationale behind the OP. 🙂

Perhaps more pre-physicians who are really concerned with not resorting to pharmacological means as the only treatment (read: new pre-DOs, enthusiastic about the AOA definition of a DO 😉) are more likely to use natural means to promote their own health, such as pursuing a veggie lifestyle.

This really doesn't have to be an MD/DO thing, as you pointed out, iloveDrStill.
 
Chocolate Bear said:
I'm not debating the philosophy differences or lack thereof. Merely speculating on the rationale behind the OP. 🙂
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OK fair enough, it sounded like you were supporting those 8 Osteopathic principles. I may be a vegeterian, but I won't drink from that silly kool aid! 🙂

In general it has been found that people who have higher IQs have an increased liklihood of becoming a vegeterian in adulthood. See here for example. So, it would be a good estimation that there are more fellow veggies in med school then there is in the general population, although I haven't seen any study to support that. Does anyone know of such as study?
 
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iloveDrStill said:
Same here. I do it for reasons of enthalpy...the 10% rule and all that. Not really a MD/DO issue. Also, my vegetarianism was spurred by my goal of losing 35+ kg...I was a rather obese teenager and not eating meat + exercise really helped me in my goal.
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Giving up meat isn't going to be the major factor for weigh loss though, as long as you're not chowing down on triple cheeseburgers every ten minutes.

I lost 50lbm sophmore year of college, and I was eating mostly chicken.
 
dkb86 said:
Well I am pre-MD (starting med school in August) and I'm a vegetarian! So I guess I am one exception to your theory 🙂 although I do eat fish, so perhaps I don't count as I am not a "true" vegetarian...
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You don't count as vegetarian.

Vegetarians do not consume flesh, blood, and organs. They consume some eggs, milk and diary products.

Fish flesh is still meat. What makes fish different from other meats? Maybe it has something to do with how some Catholics won't eat pork on Friday, but they will eat fish. Back when I ate meat, fish always seemed like the better meat and it cost more, too, as long as it was not some kind of imitation fish.
 
engineeredout said:
Giving up meat isn't going to be the major factor for weigh loss though, as long as you're not chowing down on triple cheeseburgers every ten minutes.

I lost 50lbm sophmore year of college, and I was eating mostly chicken.
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Poor chickens.

I GAINED 20 pounds in one year after going vegetarian. Surprising to most people.
 
Karen12345 said:
You don't count as vegetarian.

Vegetarians do not consume flesh, blood, and organs. They consume some eggs, milk and diary products.

Fish flesh is still meat. What makes fish different from other meats? Maybe it has something to do with how some Catholics won't eat pork on Friday, but they will eat fish. Back when I ate meat, fish always seemed like the better meat and it cost more, too, as long as it was not some kind of imitation fish.
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Yes. That is precisely why I wrote that I am not a "true" vegetarian....
 
hungry_med.jpg



...are weak!!
 
schussboarder said:
While it might be healthier and be better for the body in terms of lower cholesterol and what not, it can be detrimental if you're not getting all of your nutrients that you body needs in.
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I really dislike it when people suggest that being a vegeterian is somehow more risky then the alternative. If you eat meat or you don't, in both cases a balanced diet is essential. You insinuated that the vegeterian has to worry more about getting his/her 'nutrients'. That's not true. The only thing we can't get from animals, B12, is now found in a whole range of products from pita chips to Cheerios. The main difference that a vegeterian diet has is better health outcomes, which range from a lower BMI to and a decreased relative risk of cariovascular disease (see here, here and here for evidence), whereas I have yet to see positive things about consuming red meat and pork on a regular basis. Quite the opposite actually

Also, the way in which we generally produce meat in the western hemisphere is bad for the environment and actually contributes to everything from green house gases to antibiotic resistance seen in hospitals.

So enough of my rant. Don't knock the veggy lifestyle! 🙂
 
I couldn't have a meal without eating something that used to walk, crawl, fly or swim.
 
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As an aside, and I am not saying anyone on here believes this, but I was talking to a vegetarian a couple months back, and her rationale was that she couldn't fathom eating cells and DNA.

I wasn't sure whether to let her know that unless she is photosynthetic, everything she eats has cells and DNA, including vegetables, fruit, nuts, etc.
 
dkb86 said:
Yes. That is precisely why I wrote that I am not a "true" vegetarian....
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You're a pescatarian... I used to be one before college and I will probably go back afterwards (I eat meat at college, but usually still avoid red meat). I miss my seafood SO much!
 
I eat a near vegan diet (vegan + honey) and I will most likely be matriculating at AZCOM. I grew up eating meat, but shifted ofter to vegetarianism at age 14, and then to veganism over the last few years for both ethical and health reasons. My next step is raw foods, and I have started incorporating more raw foods into my diet over the last year, doing short bouts of 100% raw foods... though it may take a while before I totally become a raw-foodist.

In my case, you do have a point, as I have always been very holistically oriented. I was never into drugs growing up, and still always go see a naturopath before a physician for minor ailments... as I'd like to know how to change my lifestyle, diet, etc before popping synthetic pills. I had struggled for many years with endocrine and weight issues, and I have found firsthand that major life changes work as well as drugs, in my case. Of course, osteopathic philosophy naturally appealed to me.

This being the case, it may seem ironic that my top choice school is an MD school. Besides the benefit of in-state tuition, reasons I have preferred MD is because I feel the degree confers other benefits, such as: public recognition, increased international practice rights, more research opportunities in school, more opportunitiy for applying for competitive residencies (even though I may likely go into primary care, but want to keep my options open).

If all things were equal, such as if traditionally osteopathic medical schools in the US started offering MD programs and had the same research opportunities, residency opportunities, in-state tuition.... then I would choose the 'osteopathic' school hands-down, as the philosophy really does matter to me.

So in my case, you do have a point, as my holistic and spiritual orientation (which has led me to veganism) also does play a factor in my interest in so-called osteopathic philosophy, OMM, etc.
 
Lokhtar said:
As an aside, and I am not saying anyone on here believes this, but I was talking to a vegetarian a couple months back, and her rationale was that she couldn't fathom eating cells and DNA.

I wasn't sure whether to let her know that unless she is photosynthetic, everything she eats has cells and DNA, including vegetables, fruit, nuts, etc.
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Haha, that's pretty funny.
 
I wasn't trying to start a controversy, I just speculated that since in theory osteopathy attracts people with a more holistic worldview, we might apply that sense of holism to other aspects of life and thus be more inclined to evaluate things like diet through that lens.

I wasn't arguing for a direct causal relationship, just a positive correlation.
 
binko said:
So it is my unverified hypothesis that there is a higher incidence of vegans/vegetarians interested in osteopathic medicine than in allopathic.

I saw someone mention in the "LOR from my derm" thread that they are vegan, which got me all excited because I'm vegan too and don't know any other vegan pre-meds.

Anyway, let's discuss vegan/vegetarian issues as they pertain to medical school and/or the osteo/allo philosophies.
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I'm eat a vegan diet!! UNITE! haha just kidding. Im not going to be going the DO route, but i just thought i'd join in on the thread. 👍
 
Animals are far too delicious. It is also difficult for me to get 240+ grams of protein with a veggie diet. Respect for those that do as long as they don't get all preachy with it.
 
Let's not talk about Ingrid Newkirk. She's insane.
 
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Wow, that will was really intense. I absolutely hate PETA with a passion (mostly the terrorist funding ties to ALF and IDA who attack scientists and their families, 👎), but I have been considering going vegetarian for health reasons.
 
binko said:
Let's not talk about Ingrid Newkirk. She's insane.
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qft. she's pretty much batsh*t crazy.

I know personally I could never be a vegetarian but hey, kudos to the people who pick that route. I like a good steak too much. And sushi. And bbq. Ok, and bacon. :laugh:
 
MossPoh said:
Animals are far too delicious.
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Fair enough, won't argue with you there!

MossPoh said:
It is also difficult for me to get 240+ grams of protein with a veggie diet.
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lol bleeding hell man, that's around (240*4=) 1,000 calories of protein! That's not per day is it?? You get half your caloric intake per day in protein?? You must be ripped, or at the minimum, have awful breath 🙂
 
iloveDrStill said:
Fair enough, won't argue with you there!



lol bleeding hell man, that's around (240*4=) 1,000 calories of protein! That's not per day is it?? You get half your caloric intake per day in protein??
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That's not so great for the kidneys, is it?
 
Katatonic said:
I absolutely hate PETA with a passion (mostly the terrorist funding ties to ALF and IDA who attack scientists and their families, 👎), but I have been considering going vegetarian for health reasons.
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Yeah man, forget PETA and their ALF buddies
 
ALF does stupid crap like liberating animals from test labs only to abandon them by the side of the road. Great thing you did for that animal there, buddy.

Also they make no distinction between pointlessly abusive animal testing (such as cosmetics companies spraying hot mascara into the clamped-open eyes of rabbits) and animal testing for a legitimate reason (such as to develop potentially vital medications).
 
redrumi said:
Meat is wayyyy to amazing to not eat! Great thing about life is we are all free to make our own choices. Some people take it to the extreme though, check out Ingrid Newkirk's will, if you haven't heard about it already:


http://www.peta.org/feat/newkirk/will.html
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many people that eat vegan diets don't do it for "animal rights." I know I sure as hell don't. Now, if you live a totally vegan lifestyle, then chances are reasoning has to do with animal rights or save the evironment or something like that.

MossPoh said:
Animals are far too delicious. It is also difficult for me to get 240+ grams of protein with a veggie diet. Respect for those that do as long as they don't get all preachy with it.
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wtf? typo?
 
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I used to be vegetarian, but I went back to eating meat after my first year at college. It just didn't work for me - I could never get enough protein (but hey, I don't like tofu).
 
MossPoh said:
It is also difficult for me to get 240+ grams of protein with a veggie diet.
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Eating that amount of protein is seriously scary. I know some guys do it who are into bodybuilding, etc, but I can't imagine destroying one's health in attempt to get ripped. I'd be worried about cancer, kidney stones, and osteoporosis.

Here's an article that gives an overview of excessive protein intake and its metabolic effects. http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/4/886

Here's a link that gives the RDA protein requirements for men and women: http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/protein-requirement.php
The protein intakes are for average people, so if you are an athlete then I'd imagine you'd want a bit more protein than listed... within reason.

EDIT: the above link is the IOM's guidelines, not the RDA. However, the RDA still recommends 0.8g/kg of body weight. So for example, that means that a guy weighing 80kg (176 pounds) would need 64 grams of protein a day. If he's athletic, maybe it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to get 80-100 grams of protein a day... especially as he would need to eat more calories to support his activity. But I can't see why more than that is necessary or healthy. Thus the argument that a vegetarian/vegan diet doesn't supply enough protein is mute, as getting enough protein really isn't an issue.
 
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binko said:
ALF does stupid crap like liberating animals from test labs only to abandon them by the side of the road. Great thing you did for that animal there, buddy.

Also they make no distinction between pointlessly abusive animal testing (such as cosmetics companies spraying hot mascara into the clamped-open eyes of rabbits) and animal testing for a legitimate reason (such as to develop potentially vital medications).
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Binko mate, it's nice to see another level-headed vegetarian! You're going to PCOM right? If so I gotta gave you over for some of my Saag Paneeer with Naan. It doesn't have 240+ grams of protien, but you'll love it anyway! hahaha👍
 
Yeah I keep hearing "eat 1.5*body weight in lbs in protein". I'm 175, so that would mean 262g protein per day.


I drink whey protein after I work out. Three scoops of it too. Thats 72g protein total. 262 is not happening. Even despite what you get from food, you'd still have to shove down 10 scoops of this crap a day.
 
rkaz said:
Eating that amount of protein is seriously scary. I know some guys do it who are into bodybuilding, etc, but I can't imagine destroying one's health in attempt to get ripped. I'd be worried about cancer, kidney stones, and osteoporosis.

Here's an article that gives an overview of excessive protein intake and its metabolic effects. http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/4/886

Here's a link that gives the RDA protein requirements for men and women: http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/protein-requirement.php
The protein intakes are for average people, so if you are an athlete then I'd imagine you'd want a bit more protein than listed... within reason.

EDIT: the above link is the IOM's guidelines, not the RDA. However, the RDA still recommends 0.8g/kg of body weight. So for example, that means that a guy weighing 80kg (176 pounds) would need 64 grams of protein a day. If he's athletic, maybe it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to get 80-100 grams of protein a day... especially as he would need to eat more calories to support his activity. But I can't see why more than that is necessary or healthy. Thus the argument that a vegetarian/vegan diet doesn't supply enough protein is mute, as getting enough protein really isn't an issue.
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I am 245 pounds for one thing. I don't get any growth under 200 grams. I drink over 1 gallon of water a day in addition to eat more veggies than most humans. My fat intake is at a healthy amount below the requirements. I eat 6 times a day with some form of protein, but also fruits, veggies and whole grains. The risk of cancer increases with everything. I could walk out of the gym and get hit by a car. When you are moving heavy weights the potential for other injuries is much more serious. When they do that research they aren't looking at people with very very very rigorous physical activity. I highly doubt they'd be able to find an appreciable sample size that does things like sled pulling to increase GPP, heavy good mornings/squats/deadlifts, chains/bands, tire flips, farmers walks, etc. In the grand scheme of how I live and what I do, I care for my body way better than most people do...even vegetarians. 😉 I don't prescribe to the complete anything goes attitude that many in the sports have (the multi-ply gear, drugs, etc.) but I do sacrifice my joints and a slight increase in certain areas for something I love. You can say the same thing for a lot of sports and hobbies. I have a friend that was paralyzed sledding, I had a friend (a vegan if it matters) that was riding his bike and struck by a car, in the grand scheme of things...my risks aren't that bad to me. I adjust my diet to my physical activity accordingly. When I had shoulder issues, I geared down my diet since I didn't need that protein. A lot of people don't get it and that's fine. I can say that the personal fulfillment makes it worthwhile, even if it cuts off the last few years of life...which suck anyway.

I'm not a bodybuilder. That is practically an insult to me. 😉
 
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iloveDrStill said:
Binko mate, it's nice to see another level-headed vegetarian! You're going to PCOM right? If so I gotta gave you over for some of my Saag Paneeer with Naan. It doesn't have 240+ grams of protien, but you'll love it anyway! hahaha👍
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Sadly, I'm geographically limited in where I can go, and PCOM is not within my small radius. An offer of Indian food always makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside, though, even if I can't take you up on it.
 
i'm most likely going the DO route, but i'm not vegetarian! although i did try it for one summer, and it wasn't too bad since i ate soy burgers a lot (and they did taste pretty good! morningstar and boca were the best, IMO), but once i started eating meat again i realized how much i missed it.

oh right, and i don't think i could ever go vegan. i love eggs and cheese too much :\
 
this thread.. wow.

been veggie all my life.. dont eat meat bc i dont really care for the taste.. or lack thereof in my opinion.

had no idea there might be some correlation between vegetarians and wantign a DO
 
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