Vet School and the MCAT

[No Imagination]

So... how come AVMA/VMCAS/The Vet Schools (whoever are the powers that be) do not force students to take the MCAT? I know some schools would accept it (think Cornell used to/still does)

I would think it is just as good an indicator for Vet school as it is for Med Schools (Ok, may not be a good indicator for either, but has to be better then the general GRE)

Personally, I would rather have been tested on my ability to reason, chem and physics then my ability to recall the math I learned in Jr. High.

I thought of this while reading a few of the "At my Ivy League/Top Tier School we did it this way" vs. "At my small Liberal Arts college..."

I personally would love to know how I stand up against others (at vet school) on a test like the MCAT (I took it, but did not put more then 3 days prep on it as I knew it wasn't needed for vet school)

Just think the MCAT would be a great equalizer

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[DVMorBust]

I may have this completely wrong, but my understanding was that it was two parts - a. there used to be a VCAT, but it wasn't cost effective to keep it up because of the small number of schools, and b. they didn't want students taking the MCAT because they didn't want people applying to both med and vet schools, thinking one would ever be a 'back up' for the other.

 

[No Imagination]

Yeah, knew about the VCAT, that died out a while ago. As far as the Med/DVM school, fall back option - thats pretty messed up. Both are respectable professions, and while I would never want to be an MD, I wouldn't begrudge someone who decided after not getting accepted into a DVM program to go into MD, or the other way around.

Besides, no reason someone who is interested in both couldn't take the MCAT irregardless.

 

[ri23]

I may have this completely wrong, but my understanding was that it was two parts - a. there used to be a VCAT, but it wasn't cost effective to keep it up because of the small number of schools, and b. they didn't want students taking the MCAT because they didn't want people applying to both med and vet schools, thinking one would ever be a 'back up' for the other.

I don't believe that the second one has anything to do with it.

The MCAT covers material that are not pre-requisites for veterinary school; therefore, when the VCAT ended they didn't switch to the MCAT as students would have to take on more of a course load.

I think it is much better that we don't have to take the MCAT.
1. I think the MCAT would hurt non-traditional students
2. The prep that goes into the MCAT is much greater than the GRE
3. The GRE is offered more frequently - giving people more of a chance to improve their scores.

 

[DVMorBust]

Yeah, I don't know what the deal is exactly. That's just what I heard - although I do think that they're such different professions that they shouldn't be used as a fallback by default. I think someone wanting to do either would be akin to someone wanting to go into veterinary medicine or law. I do know that some schools have gotten touchy about people applying to both programs at once.

Yeah, knew about the VCAT, that died out a while ago. As far as the Med/DVM school, fall back option - thats pretty messed up. Both are respectable professions, and while I would never want to be an MD, I wouldn't begrudge someone who decided after not getting accepted into a DVM program to go into MD, or the other way around.

Besides, no reason someone who is interested in both couldn't take the MCAT irregardless.

 

[xl3000]

OVC at Guelph uses the MCAT for Canadian students. I think a few US vet schools will look at it.

 

[No Imagination]

The MCAT covers material that are not pre-requisites for veterinary school; therefore, when the VCAT ended they didn't switch to the MCAT as students would have to take on more of a course load.

I don't think thats true. My g/f took the MCAT, got into Med School. She didn't take any more classes then the average pre-vet student (she did take 2 semesters of Physics, not sure if thats the norm for vet students, though think it is). Only classes that are really needed for MCAT are Bio's, Chems, Organics, Physics, Non-Calc Math. Pretty sure we all take those.

1. I think the MCAT would hurt non-traditional students

No more then non-trad Med Students

2. The prep that goes into the MCAT is much greater than the GRE

Absolutely!

3. The GRE is offered more frequently - giving people more of a chance to improve their scores.

Uhh, not sure thats true. You can only take GRE 5x per year. MCAT is offered +20x a year. Not sure how many times you can take it, but if your taking the GRE more then 2-3x in a year, somethings wrong.

 

[ckd816]

Uhh, not sure thats true. You can only take GRE 5x per year. MCAT is offered +20x a year. Not sure how many times you can take it, but if your taking the GRE more then 2-3x in a year, somethings wrong.

Where I live, you can pretty much take the GRE every day of the week. I'm not sure if this is true everywhere though. 🙂

 

[DVMorBust]

Where I live, you can pretty much take the GRE every day of the week. I'm not sure if this is true everywhere though. 🙂

I think she meant that, although it is offered multiple times a day most days of the year, you are only allowed to sit the exam 5 times in a year.

 

[incendium04]

Uhh, not sure thats true. You can only take GRE 5x per year. MCAT is offered +20x a year. Not sure how many times you can take it, but if your taking the GRE more then 2-3x in a year, somethings wrong.

How often the GRE is offered depends on location, I think. Where I am, its offered at least weekly and usually several times a week. No idea about the MCAT. At the very least, the availability of the GRE makes its easier for people to schedule to take it.

Edit: woops, guess everyone has the same idea. =P

 

[ckd816]

I think she meant that, although it is offered multiple times a day most days of the year, you are only allowed to sit the exam 5 times in a year.

Oh! I see. Sorry, I was thinking about how many times it is offered. I don't remember hearing about the limit of how many times you can take it in a year... probably because I couldn't imagine taking it so many times in that time period! I bet I just wrote it off in my mind! 😳

 

[sumstorm]

I thought the MCAT was limited to 3/yr?

Use to be you could only take it 3/life, except with special permission.

I graduated when the VCAT was still available.

Oh, and as a non-trad, I would have happily prepared for and taken the MCAT to prove I knew my stuff. I actually volunteered a copy of my GRE Bio's from the year I graduated and last year to prove that I still know my stuff (and actually did better last year.) Especially if it would have short-circuited some of the GPA/old grade problems.

 

[No Imagination]

I thought the MCAT was limited to 3/yr

It was written, and at 3/year. Now it is computerized and at 20+ times a year, but I do not know the number of times you are allowed to take it.

I agree with you Sumstorm, as a Non-Trad, I would have relished the opportunity to strut my stuff with a kick as MCAT score.

No one really takes the GRE seriously, it certainly isn't weighed as much as GPA at most (any?) schools. People like me with a few really bad semesters in undergrad could really use something that is actually weighed to help show we've progressed.

 

[ri23]

I don't think thats true. My g/f took the MCAT, got into Med School. She didn't take any more classes then the average pre-vet student (she did take 2 semesters of Physics, not sure if thats the norm for vet students, though think it is). Only classes that are really needed for MCAT are Bio's, Chems, Organics, Physics, Non-Calc Math. Pretty sure we all take those.




No more then non-trad Med Students



Absolutely!



Uhh, not sure thats true. You can only take GRE 5x per year. MCAT is offered +20x a year. Not sure how many times you can take it, but if your taking the GRE more then 2-3x in a year, somethings wrong.

You just compared the number of times you are allowed to take the GRE to the number of times the MCAT is offered. The GRE is practically offered every day of the week.

Also - if you look at the pre-reqs for vet school and what is covered on the MCAT, I am correct.

 

[Myuu]

It was written, and at 3/year. Now it is computerized and at 20+ times a year, but I do not know the number of times you are allowed to take it.

I agree with you Sumstorm, as a Non-Trad, I would have relished the opportunity to strut my stuff with a kick-ass MCAT score.

No one really takes the GRE seriously, it certainly isn't weighed as much as GPA at most (any?) schools. People like me with a few really bad semesters in undergrad could really use something that is actually weighed to help show we've progressed.

It is still 3 times/year and expires after 3 years for most schools. If you want to take it a fourth time within that initial one-year period, you need special permission.👍

 

[sumstorm]

You just compared the number of times you are allowed to take the GRE to the number of times the MCAT is offered. The GRE is practically offered every day of the week.

Also - if you look at the pre-reqs for vet school and what is covered on the MCAT, I am correct.

What topics does the MCAT cover that we aren't required in pre-reqs for vet school? At my college, the pre-vets generally had to take MORE pre-reqs than the pre meds. Business classes and speech were definitly not on the list for most of my med school friends.

 

[Myuu]

What topics does the MCAT cover that we aren't required in pre-reqs for vet school? At my college, the pre-vets generally had to take MORE pre-reqs than the pre meds. Business classes and speech were definitly not on the list for most of my med school friends.

I have no idea what pre-vets are supposed to take, but here's an official list of MCAT-testable topics, if you're bored and want to compare:
biological sciences,
physical sciences, and
verbal reasoning skills.👍

 

[No Imagination]

Also - if you look at the pre-reqs for vet school and what is covered on the MCAT, I am correct.

If you are going to take every class that could possibly help you on the MCAT, then sure, every Biology and Chemistry class that a college offers COULD be covered on the exam.

But, and perhaps I am wrong, maybe someone familiar with the MCAT can correct me:

1 Yr. Biology
1 Yr. Gen. Chem
1 Yr. Organic Chem
1 Yr. Physics
1 Yr. College lvl Math (Pre-calc at least)
+ ~4 Semesters of Random Bio/Chem classes
1 Semester Biochem
1 Semester Genetics
1 Semester Physiology

is the standard for most vet schools.

I believe that to be enough to lay the foundation for anyone to adequately take and do well on the MCAT

So saying that the req. for Vet Students in insufficient to prepare someone to take the MCAT is nonsense. I know for a fact that those are the same classes that most Med Students take.

I am sure having Immunology and Analytical Chemistry and Physical Chemistry and... could help, but that is all gravy.

EDIT: The ONLY thing I noticed that SOME pre-vet students may not have is the Macro aspect of physiology (Respiration, Circulatory, Neuro... - But I am sure the Animal Science people are LoL'ing about that right now, my Physiology was more Enzyme/Bio-molecular based, but that was my fault)

 

[Myuu]

If you are going to take every class that could possibly help you on the MCAT, then sure, every Biology and Chemistry class that a college offers COULD be covered on the exam.

But, and perhaps I am wrong, maybe someone familiar with the MCAT can correct me:

1 Yr. Biology
1 Yr. Gen. Chem
1 Yr. Organic Chem
1 Yr. Physics
1 Yr. College lvl Math (Pre-calc at least)
+ ~4 Semesters of Random Bio/Chem classes
1 Semester Biochem
1 Semester Genetics
1 Semester Physiology

is the standard for most vet schools.

I believe that to be enough to lay the foundation for anyone to adequately take and do well on the MCAT

So saying that the req. for Vet Students in insufficient to prepare someone to take the MCAT is nonsense. I know for a fact that those are the same classes that most Med Students take.

I am sure having Immunology and Analytical Chemistry and Physical Chemistry and... could help, but that is all gravy.

EDIT: The ONLY thing I noticed that SOME pre-vet students may not have is the Macro aspect of physiology (Respiration, Circulatory, Neuro... - But I am sure the Animal Science people are LoL'ing about that right now, my Physiology was more Enzyme/Bio-molecular based, but that was my fault)

The bolded classes are bottom-line requirements that are directly tested on the MCAT. The rest are just helpful and can save time.👍

 

[Pointer1330]

As a non-trad, having to take the MCAT would have made my life a lot more difficult. First off, many are wrong on the prereq's - there are schools where tested topics on the MCAT aren't required as prereqs for admission. For example, Physics II and Calc both aren't required for myself, and if they were I would have another full year of prereqs to deal with (and when you're older and paying out of pocket a year is a BIG deal). I also agree that you would also have a lot of people who would apply to Vet school or Med school as a back-up plan and that wouldn't be a good situation for anyone involved.

 

[TSUJC]

All I know is that I definitely would not have been accepted to vet school if I was required to take the MCAT!

I did well in Organic but NOT Physics...I would be in so much trouble if I had to take the MCAT.

 

[sumstorm]

There isn't anything that PREVENTS one from taking the MCAT and applying to med schools as well. So that argument isn't logical.

There isn't any calculus on the MCAT's. It has been a handful of years since I took the MCAT (and did pretty darn well) and I don't remember it being horrible. I don't know what is covered in Physics II in other schools.

 

[AgtOrange]

Two of the vets I work with took the VCAT when they applied 20+ years ago.

One scored a 2 and the other scored a zero. How do you score a ZERO? I don't know, but apparently the OSU admissions committee got quite a kick out of it.

I'm thinking the MCAT is also significantly more expensive than the GRE, yes?

 

[No Imagination]

I don't remember it being horrible. I don't know what is covered in Physics II in other schools.

At my last two schools, Physics II was Electromagnetism, Circuits, Intro to Relativity, ect (basically non-Newtonian). That stuff is on the MCAT. I am guessing that not having Physics II would be a detriment for the MCAT, but I always thought that 2 semesters of Physics was required for Vet School. Perhaps thats something that changed?

I'm thinking the MCAT is also significantly more expensive than the GRE, yes?

I believe the MCAT is ~$250.00
If i remember correctly, the GRE was $175.00

 

[Pointer1330]

There isn't anything that PREVENTS one from taking the MCAT and applying to med schools as well. So that argument isn't logical.

There isn't any calculus on the MCAT's. It has been a handful of years since I took the MCAT (and did pretty darn well) and I don't remember it being horrible. I don't know what is covered in Physics II in other schools.

There is something that prevents many of us from taking it along with the GRE - the money and time required to study for and take another test. And even though many may have done very well in prereqs they may have since forgotten a lot of the MCAT info the studying can be a lot of work. So what math is on the MCAT? I'm willing to bet that there's something above stats, which is the extent of my college level math, so it would require additional coursework to prepare for. Yes, I understand there's also math to study for on the GRE, but I've heard it's not as difficult as the MCAT.

 

[Myuu]

There is something that prevents many of us from taking it along with the GRE - the money and time required to study for and take another test. And even though many may have done very well in prereqs they may have since forgotten a lot of the MCAT info the studying can be a lot of work. So what math is on the MCAT? I'm willing to bet that there's something above stats, which is the extent of my college level math, so it would require additional coursework to prepare for. Yes, I understand there's also math to study for on the GRE, but I've heard it's not as difficult as the MCAT.

It's pretty much algebra. No calculators are allowed, so it's all about head-math and rounding (and a great deal of plug-n-chug).

 

[No Imagination]

Not sure what constitutes "above stats". Stats can be taught at many levels.

From what I remember of the MCAT, the math is almost easier then the GRE.

GRE math is tricky easy stuff.

MCAT math seems to be more straight forward, but more advanced.

Pre-Calc is the highest I recall (Basically functions). Think there is a bit of trig on there as well.

Reason I made this post was not so much to push the MCAT, but I just always thought is would be much more relevant to our chosen profession.

 

[sumstorm]

There is something that prevents many of us from taking it along with the GRE - the money and time required to study for and take another test. And even though many may have done very well in prereqs they may have since forgotten a lot of the MCAT info the studying can be a lot of work. So what math is on the MCAT? I'm willing to bet that there's something above stats, which is the extent of my college level math, so it would require additional coursework to prepare for. Yes, I understand there's also math to study for on the GRE, but I've heard it's not as difficult as the MCAT.

Yes, but if the argument AGAINST using MCAT (rather than the GRE) is that it would ENABLE applicants to apply to both vet schools and med schools, the argument doesn't make sense as there isn't anything that actually PREVENTS applicants from doing so now (and I don't think there should be.)

My understanding is that the math goes through algebra, geometry, and trig (I never had trig, so I can't put much input on what is or isn't in trig) + vector math (physics.)

http://www.premed411.com/pdfs/math.pdf

for a basic review.

I don't think it has any real statistics on it.

Will calculus help you with physics sections? That depends...for me calc based physics was easier than TA'ing non-calc based. I also took calc based stats (becaue I had to have math, and I took calc in HS.) But I would assume that if you learned physics without calc, then you could do physics without calc.

But to me, hearing 'I would have to study more' as the reason why vet schools shouldn't use MCAT isn't very convincing. I actually probably paid more the taking GRE subject tests and the GRE general and had to put more time into it.

From the other thread where evaluations of GPA, GRE, Experience came into play, I honestly believe the MCAT would be a better indicator of an applicants base knowledge across those subjects entering into vet school. Maybe it shouldn't be required, but maybe it should be an optional submission for non-trads with decades old grades who want to prove that they can still hack the sciences.

Depends on what the point of the tests are for the individual school requiring them. I personally feel the GRE doesn't test much of anything. Oh, and there are always going to be people who are at a disadvantage in standardized testing, whether it is the MCAT, the GRE, LSAT, etc due to finances, time constraints, etc. Those same issues tend to make the same individuals disadvantaged in the GPA arena as well. I don't like it, but unless reform of education starts in pre-K and includes the elimination of all influencing socio-economic factors, it will always be there.

 

[Myuu]

Yes, but if the argument AGAINST using MCAT (rather than the GRE) is that it would ENABLE applicants to apply to both vet schools and med schools, the argument doesn't make sense as there isn't anything that actually PREVENTS applicants from doing so now (and I don't think there should be.)

My understanding is that the math goes through algebra, geometry, and trig (I never had trig, so I can't put much input on what is or isn't in trig) + vector math (physics.)

http://www.premed411.com/pdfs/math.pdf

for a basic review.

I don't think it has any real statistics on it.

Will calculus help you with physics sections? That depends...for me calc based physics was easier than TA'ing non-calc based. I also took calc based stats (becaue I had to have math, and I took calc in HS.) But I would assume that if you learned physics without calc, then you could do physics without calc.

But to me, hearing 'I would have to study more' as the reason why vet schools shouldn't use MCAT isn't very convincing. I actually probably paid more the taking GRE subject tests and the GRE general and had to put more time into it.

From the other thread where evaluations of GPA, GRE, Experience came into play, I honestly believe the MCAT would be a better indicator of an applicants base knowledge across those subjects entering into vet school. Maybe it shouldn't be required, but maybe it should be an optional submission for non-trads with decades old grades who want to prove that they can still hack the sciences.

Depends on what the point of the tests are for the individual school requiring them. I personally feel the GRE doesn't test much of anything. Oh, and there are always going to be people who are at a disadvantage in standardized testing, whether it is the MCAT, the GRE, LSAT, etc due to finances, time constraints, etc. Those same issues tend to make the same individuals disadvantaged in the GPA arena as well. I don't like it, but unless reform of education starts in pre-K and includes the elimination of all influencing socio-economic factors, it will always be there.

The physical sciences section on the MCAT does require some (very) simple trig in kinematics problems, but there isn't anything that would require calculus or vectors.

 

[No Imagination]

From the other thread where evaluations of GPA, GRE, Experience came into play, I honestly believe the MCAT would be a better indicator of an applicants base knowledge across those subjects entering into vet school .... I personally feel the GRE doesn't test much of anything.

You pretty much summed up my feelings precisely.

 

[twelvetigers]

While the GRE seems a bit silly to me as well, I'm not complaining because I'm really thankful that it doesn't cover physics. I would be d-e-d ded meat.

What about the biology GRE? It covers botany, which isn't so relevant, but everything else is very relevant - genetics, taxonomy, biological processes and functions, and ecology... maybe every school should require it?

Just a thought. 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

While the GRE seems a bit silly to me as well, I'm not complaining because I'm really thankful that it doesn't cover physics. I would be d-e-d ded meat.

What about the biology GRE? It covers botany, which isn't so relevant, but everything else is very relevant - genetics, taxonomy, biological processes and functions, and ecology... maybe every school should require it?

Just a thought. 🙂

Doesn't cover chem/biochem. And botany is relevant if you are involved in toxicity, nutrition, livestock, etc.


I personally hated the GRE bio....I got to some random section that wanted me to 'name the scientist' on some random obscure junk. Not big names like Crick or Leopald or such, but people I have never heard of...or maybe heard of in the brief reading of an introductory passage about a technique. Really annoyed me. I did pretty good on it, though. I sent my GRE bio scores to ALL the schools I applied to...hoping that even if it wasn't official, seeing the strong recent score would prove beneficial.

How important is physics? I would think it oculd be incredibly important for some fields, and not so much for others...but then again, how often does a SA vet really use genetics?

 

[hopefulvet21]

How important is physics? I would think it oculd be incredibly important for some fields, and not so much for others...but then again, how often does a SA vet really use genetics?

Physics is extremely important. It's the most fundamental subject of the universe. Plus, if you want to understand how fluoroscopy, x-rays, or basically any piece of diagnostic equipment works, you need to understand physics.

 

[Pointer1330]

We could argue all day about how important different prereqs are...you say physics is important - I say it's worthless to me and I could care less how my equipment works, what's important is knowing how to use the infomormation you get from it. There is a core group of prereqs to cover a broad basis of sciences in which you have to use different thinking/problem-solving skillls which all prepare you for the rigors of Vet school. Also, having a number of varied courses will also help weed out some students, a necessary evil.

By mentioning I only took stats in college, that means that I didn't take Algebra, Trig, or anything else (and my last Algebra and Geometry courses were in H.S. in 95-96. That's why I feel the MCAT would put myself at a disadvantage (not because it would necessitate extra studying or because of socioeconomic factors as Sumstorm mentioned). I feel if you can handle the math in Physics and Chem II well enough to ace those courses and handle the GRE than you should be good to go as far as math is concerned. Please don't think I'm arguing that the GRE is a great test, I would personally be in favor of a VCAT again.

 

[sumstorm]

We could argue all day about how important different prereqs are...you say physics is important - I say it's worthless to me and I could care less how my equipment works, what's important is knowing how to use the infomormation you get from it. There is a core group of prereqs to cover a broad basis of sciences in which you have to use different thinking/problem-solving skillls which all prepare you for the rigors of Vet school. Also, having a number of varied courses will also help weed out some students, a necessary evil.

By mentioning I only took stats in college, that means that I didn't take Algebra, Trig, or anything else (and my last Algebra and Geometry courses were in H.S. in 95-96. That's why I feel the MCAT would put myself at a disadvantage (not because it would necessitate extra studying or because of socioeconomic factors as Sumstorm mentioned). I feel if you can handle the math in Physics and Chem II well enough to ace those courses and handle the GRE than you should be good to go as far as math is concerned. Please don't think I'm arguing that the GRE is a great test, I would personally be in favor of a VCAT again.

Ummm....MOST vet schools require at least some physics, so I would say that whether or not it is important, most schools expect you to have some knowledge of it. If you haven't completed vet school, how do you KNOW that it isn't important? One of my employers is a rehabilitator for working dogs...physics is important for her in terms of bio-mechanics in her daily practice, so I am not certain why you are so quick to dismiss it.

By the way, my algebra course was in 1994-95 and my geometry course was in 1995-96. I took calc in 1996-97. I took stats in 1997. So, why would it put you at such a huge disadvantage compared to me?

Oh, and YOU brought up socio-economic issues and extra studying time:

There is something that prevents many of us from taking it along with the GRE - the money and time required to study for and take another test. And even though many may have done very well in prereqs they may have since forgotten a lot of the MCAT info the studying can be a lot of work.

As a non-trad, having to take the MCAT would have made my life a lot more difficult. First off, many are wrong on the prereq's - there are schools where tested topics on the MCAT aren't required as prereqs for admission.

And if you don't know the material of the pre-reqs, wouldn't that mean you are going to have problems in vet school, assuming the school lists those pre-reqs BECAUSE you need to have that knowledge? Acing a class 10 years ago doesn't necessarily mean you remember anything about it. I say that as a non-trad that applied after 9 years out of the classroom, so I do sympathize, but realisticly, I would have NO ISSUES proving that I could still handle all the science. Yes, I would need to review physics to take an MCAT now...I had to review vocab to take the GRE (because when I was writing for the general public attending zoos, the vocab I used was much simpler, and when I was working in research, the vocab was limited ot the field I was in.) I get that you feel you would be at a disadvantage because you would have to refresh your skills, but I don't think testing is about who is at an advantage, but rather about ensuring incoming students have the basic skills necessary at the time they are admitted. One of the reasons med schools are putting more emphasis on the MCAT is because of the difficulty in examining the differences in GPA's across schools.

 

[bakaduin]

1. Why would anyone be arguing to take a more difficult exam that takes more preparation? When you get an easy exam in class do you go to the teacher and ask for a harder one so you can better test your knowledge?

2. Vet schools have been using GPA/GRE as the main factors in acceptance for a number of years now. Vet schools have a very high board passage rate and lose very few students along the way. Of those that do leave it is usually for personal reasons rather than academics. So judging by that I would say the GRE and GPAs have been a pretty good indicator for vet schools on who to let in when their overall purpose is to graduate competent veterinarians. You may argue that the MCAT would be a better indicator of success in vet school but when most schools are graduating 90+% of their classes already how much can you really improve?

 

[No Imagination]

1. I (and a few others) were debating what was a better indicator of the required field of study. MCAT or GRE. Most people seem to think MCAT.

The reason a "Harder" exam would be nice, is it would allow Vet schools (like Med Schools) to have another variable when evaluating students. Right now a LOT of weight is put on GPA. Like it or not, GPA's while objective in the school, is subjective overall (many schools have different standards and grade inflation is a real problem).

To combat this, Vet Schools try and objectify the problem by using "Difficulty of program". Another subjective term.

Also, not everyone can go to school full time without work, and many times GPA can suffer, even though the material is retained and understood. Now, thats life, granted, but it would be nice to have another variable to weigh in. ATM, most Vet schools place little weight on the GRE, as it doesn't really pertain to the material.

2. The fact that vet schools have been using the GRE for so many years and there is a high pass rate is completely flawed. There was a time when Minorities and women could not even attend universities, but to say the students had a very high passing rate shouldn't dictate resistance to change.

You may argue that the MCAT would be a better indicator of success in vet school but when most schools are graduating 90+% of their classes already how much can you really improve?

<10%

 

[sumstorm]

Correlation =/= Causation:

Graduating 90%+ is not indicative that the suitable students entered the program (or even that the best potential vets are graduating.) I am willing to bet that if vet schools increased thier class sizes by 10%, we would still get a 90%+ graduation rate because there is a surplus of qualified applicants.

For me personaly, if I attended a class where the exams were completly unrelated to the material of the class (ie I walked into a medical microbiology class and the exam questions were on high school algebra) I would be very upset and I WOULD go to the deans. Why? My undergraduate education was EXPENSIVE, and I paid that money to obtain a solid education that would prepare me for professional performance, not just academic grades. If your goal is a good GPA, I am sure there are lots of places to attend where classes were relatively easy and the objective of earning a 4.0 wouldn't be that painful. The goal of my undergrad was to prepare students for the continued pursuit of truth (knowledge.) It is part of the schools motto and creed. If I took an entry level bio class that didn't give you the necessary knowledge to enter and successfully complete an upper level bio class, I would have wasted time and money on that class, plus on the upper level class. For professors it would be difficult to catch students up on material that should have been covered in a previous class, and it wouldn't be fair to the students who came to the class prepared.

What vet schools do will be up to vet schools, but whether something is a better indicator has little to do with how easy or difficult it is for the variables being measured.

 

[nyanko]

.
How important is physics? I would think it oculd be incredibly important for some fields, and not so much for others...but then again, how often does a SA vet really use genetics?

NOT THAT I AM BIASED OR ANYTHING 😉 but genetics is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER so a SA vet uses genetics every single day!!!

😀

 

[Pointer1330]

Ummm....MOST vet schools require at least some physics, so I would say that whether or not it is important, most schools expect you to have some knowledge of it. If you haven't completed vet school, how do you KNOW that it isn't important? One of my employers is a rehabilitator for working dogs...physics is important for her in terms of bio-mechanics in her daily practice, so I am not certain why you are so quick to dismiss it.

By the way, my algebra course was in 1994-95 and my geometry course was in 1995-96. I took calc in 1996-97. I took stats in 1997. So, why would it put you at such a huge disadvantage compared to me?

Oh, and YOU brought up socio-economic issues and extra studying time:



And if you don't know the material of the pre-reqs, wouldn't that mean you are going to have problems in vet school, assuming the school lists those pre-reqs BECAUSE you need to have that knowledge? Acing a class 10 years ago doesn't necessarily mean you remember anything about it. I say that as a non-trad that applied after 9 years out of the classroom, so I do sympathize, but realisticly, I would have NO ISSUES proving that I could still handle all the science. Yes, I would need to review physics to take an MCAT now...I had to review vocab to take the GRE (because when I was writing for the general public attending zoos, the vocab I used was much simpler, and when I was working in research, the vocab was limited ot the field I was in.) I get that you feel you would be at a disadvantage because you would have to refresh your skills, but I don't think testing is about who is at an advantage, but rather about ensuring incoming students have the basic skills necessary at the time they are admitted. One of the reasons med schools are putting more emphasis on the MCAT is because of the difficulty in examining the differences in GPA's across schools.

This conversation is exactly why I don't post here very often - you have completely misunderstood me (which happens all the time when you talk through a chat board). First, I was defending the breadth of prereqs, and just telling you that for ME, physics won't be important. I know that I won't be doing rehabilitation or becoming an orthapedic surgeon. I didn't say that we shouldn't have to take it. Second, I know a great deal about how important physics is in Vet school because my spouse, who is sitting next to me, has been through Vet school and we have had endless discussions about the curriculum and which of the prereqs applies to school - so why make assumptions and accuse me of not having any knowledge because I'm not yet in school (kettle, pot by the way).

Second, as far as your socioeconomic thing, the only comment I made was that time and money would prevent myself (and many others) from taking BOTH the MCAT and the GRE. That's the only reference I was making to time and money. I don't think there's many people out there wanting to spend the time studying and extra money to do that. So that comment was taken out of context.

Finally, I was just commenting that the MCAT would have made things more difficult for myself. I wasn't comparing myself to you, and if you haven't had a math class since the mid 90's and you thought you were prepared for the MCAT, more power to you. I don't consider myself a genius and don't remember most of the math I took over a decade ago when I didn't take classes seriously. My point was simply that it doesn't make sense for someone to try and take both exams because you were making the comment that everyone definitely could. I was simply explaining why it didn't make sense.

I'll stop arguing now because we obviously aren't on the same page. And you also seem to think my science classes are extremely old also - and they're not - I've taken/am taking all of the sciences right now. Another false assumption - so I obviously can show that I'm capable of handling the sciences now.

 

[bakaduin]

1. I (and a few others) were debating what was a better indicator of the required field of study. MCAT or GRE. Most people seem to think MCAT.

The reason a "Harder" exam would be nice, is it would allow Vet schools (like Med Schools) to have another variable when evaluating students. Right now a LOT of weight is put on GPA. Like it or not, GPA's while objective in the school, is subjective overall (many schools have different standards and grade inflation is a real problem).

To combat this, Vet Schools try and objectify the problem by using "Difficulty of program". Another subjective term.

Also, not everyone can go to school full time without work, and many times GPA can suffer, even though the material is retained and understood. Now, thats life, granted, but it would be nice to have another variable to weigh in. ATM, most Vet schools place little weight on the GRE, as it doesn't really pertain to the material.

2. The fact that vet schools have been using the GRE for so many years and there is a high pass rate is completely flawed. There was a time when Minorities and women could not even attend universities, but to say the students had a very high passing rate shouldn't dictate resistance to change.



<10%

I used 90% as a rough estimate but if you look at a school like the University of Florida, where I attend. The last 2 years they have had a 100% passage rate for each class. You can take the exam twice in the year and so the few that didn’t pass the first time made it in the 2nd attempt. So there would be very little improvement to be made by switching to the MCAT, if any.

In addition your argument about women and minorities is about as apples and oranges as things get. We are talking about your subjective opinion that the MCAT is a better indicator of future success in vet school than the GRE. If Vet schools thought that it was I imagine they would use it but since they seem to be doing more admirably without it I would guess they see no reason.

I would also argue that GPA isn't very subjective at all and I think the standards set by the graduating classes of veterinary schools have proved that. This is not to say that someone who did poorly in academics would not graduate and make a good vet as Ross graduates plenty of great vets who otherwise wouldn't have made it into an American school because of GPA. It is just to point out that someone with a 4.0 in undergraduate should be equipped with the skills to succeed. Obviously there is nothing in this world that is absolute but I think we can all agree that this is the admissions board's reasoning.

Also you assumption that most Vet schools place little weight on GRE is unequivocally false. Many schools use a combination of GPA and GRE to make their initial cuts and that is where a large majority of applicants are removed from the pool. In addition, and unfortunately, our own LVTDVM can attest to the fact that GRE is heavily weighted.

My final point involves the GRE and MCAT as a whole. You propose that the MCAT is a better indicator of the required field of study and use the fact that others on a message board agree with you despite the fact that every admissions board seems to disagree. I would argue, having sat through a semester and a half of Vet school so far, that neither means squat in relation to vet school and their purpose only serves to correlate somewhat to knowledge in general.

Graduating 90%+ is not indicative that the suitable students entered the program (or even that the best potential vets are graduating.) I am willing to bet that if vet schools increased thier class sizes by 10%, we would still get a 90%+ graduation rate because there is a surplus of qualified applicants.

Sunstorm- Deciding if the best potential vets graduated is an impossible thing to measure. With all the money invested into each graduating veterinarian the only thing admissions can do is admit students they think have the best chance of making it through the gauntlet. I agree with you wholeheartedly that more qualified applicants apply than spots exist which is why schools like Ross/SGU/etc graduate many students who will end up as better veterinarians than the American school counterparts. But if our definition of suitable students are ones that can pass the classes, retain the material, pass their boards, and make good veterinarians, than I would say a high pass rate is completely indicative of success.