Veterinary Interns Exploitation

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

ukrainiandude

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
78
Reaction score
4
Data from AVMA website
The average annual income of veterinarians in private practice that had done an internship was $9,000 lower than those that entered private practice without an internship.
@@@@

Veterinary Interns Speak Out Against Exploitation

Recommend to read before considering applying

When Sabrina finally got home from the hospital, it was pushing 10:30 pm. She was ending another 100-hour work week, and she was exhausted. But just as she was putting her bags down, the phone rang. It was work. She’d been called back in.

For Sabrina, a recently graduated veterinarian, that night ended as so many others had that year: with her on the hospital floor, sleeping three or four hours (the sole cot was reserved for more senior staff). She would awake to begin another 14-hour shift, enduring verbal abuse and disrespect. “Uppity clients curse at me weekly because they don’t like what I have to say about their animal or they don’t want to pay,” she says. “I’ve been threatened to be sued multiple times, and I’ve had a man almost hit me.” Co-workers are not much better. Technicians regularly undermine her, while senior doctors treat her as their secretary, forcing her to do their paperwork rather than providing mentorship. “It’s frustrating because we’re doctors, but we don’t get respected as such at all,” she says. “I hate it here.”

Sabrina is one of more than 2,000 newly graduated veterinarians who apply annually for an internship—a year-long stint at a university or private practice meant to hone a young vet’s skills. Internships are not mandatory, but an increasing number of graduating veterinarians are choosing to pursue them—36 percent in 2014. For many, the programs pave the way to specialty residencies in fields like cardiology, dermatology and exotic animal medicine. Others opt in because they believe the experience will give them an edge over those who go straight into practice.


But internships are notorious for brutal hours and extremely low pay—just $30,000 on average—and unlike in human medicine, no independent authority oversees veterinary internships to assure their quality and provide assistance, should a problem occur. As a result, many senior veterinarians and technicians consider internships to be a kind of hazing—a right-of-passage in which hardship for hardship’s sake is institutionalized. Though no data exist on interns’ mental health, depression and anxiety seem commonplace.
No regulations
“Slave laborers”—that was the term used by several of the 13 current or former interns Newsweek interviewed. “No one is looking out for these kids, and no one vets these internships,” says Bradford Smith, a professor emeritus at the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of California, Davis. In 2006, he published a paper detailing how to select an internship, with the hope of helping students avoid getting taken advantage of.

You can DuckDuckGo the full article

Members don't see this ad.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm not even sure what the headline has to do with the content.
 
I'm not even sure what the headline has to do with the content.
If you DuckDuckGo the article from internet, you will learn that the article was named
Veterinary interns speak up against exploitation.
@
I personally never had any internship experience in the USA, and was not sure if journalists who wrote it was not exaggerating,
You know journalists looking for sensations do that.
Honestly I am surprised that there are no working hours limitation per day, per week, no lunch, coffee breaks ,I thought young DVMs are treated the same way as MDs but what I learned from the article and brief web search sounded worse than 18 century slavery
Modern slavery in a free world.
 
thought young DVMs are treated the same way as MDs
Hah! Do you know how MD interns and residents are treated?!? Or senior law students while articling for a practice. Not much differently, actually.

Seriously, there's a more than a little slavery happening in the modern world. Real slavery, where people are held captive against their will and forced into dangerous work, without pay and without options. Don't belittle the term with hyperbole about people who've made a choice to enter a chosen program, are provided with a reward for their work, and can also choose to leave at any time. Do I think that interns are treated badly? Yes, which is one of the reasons I decided not to do one. But it's hardly slavery.

And what's the point you wrote about private-practice incomes, since it has nothing to do with the internship itself.? That also should not be a surprise, and it's why most people will say don't do an internship unless you plan to pursue a residency as well.
 
If you DuckDuckGo the article from internet, you will learn that the article was named
Veterinary interns speak up against exploitation.
@
I personally never had any internship experience in the USA, and was not sure if journalists who wrote it was not exaggerating,
You know journalists looking for sensations do that.
Honestly I am surprised that there are no working hours limitation per day, per week, no lunch, coffee breaks ,I thought young DVMs are treated the same way as MDs but what I learned from the article and brief web search sounded worse than 18 century slavery
Modern slavery in a free world.

Am I still confused why you posted this though?

The original post and even this post has no questions, no explanation, nothing. You just posted an old (it has been out for a bit) article about something that everyone realizes. Do you want to discuss how interns are treated? Do you want to delve into how associates are treated too? How about the movement of veterinary medicine into giant corporations and how that is impacting veterinarians and support staff mental health/quality of life?

I mean what is your purpose of posting the article? To discuss why do an internship? To discuss how to avoid a bad internship? To discuss how to improve internships?
 
sure. I want to have many ways of caring for my sick pet. Thank you if you can help

We don't give veterinary advice for personal pets on this forum it is against forum rules. Go see a veterinarian if you are needing a way to care for your sick pet. This thread definitely has nothing to do with caring for sick pets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I mean what is your purpose of posting the article?

To discuss if working 80 hours plus per week without sufficient breaks contradicts
U.S. department of labor regulations, including minimum hourly wage,regardless of what both parties have agreed.
That is what I call exploitation.
AVMA should step in, internship should be unionized.
Labor laws are a little bit more employees oriented in Canada.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
To discuss if working 80 hours plus per week without sufficient breaks contradicts
U.S. department of labor regulations, including minimum hourly wage,regardless of what both parties have agreed.
That is what I call exploitation.
AVMA should step in, internship should be unionized.
Labor laws are a little bit more employees oriented in Canada.

It does not because interns are exempt from US department of labor minimum wage. Look up FSLA exempt, interns fall under "professional exemption".
 
Members don't see this ad :)
But veterinary interns ARE paid.
By definition of the FLSA, paid interns are considered employees and are subject to all the legal benefits of employees. This includes minimum wage. Additionally, this means that if they are full-time interns, they are subject to employee benefits. Then, paid interns are also subject to the updates in the new overtime rules.

This means that interns that make under $47,476 are eligible for overtime pay. Overtime pay is defined at time and a half. Interns that do make above the salary threshold may be subject to an exempt status. However, it would be difficult to maintain both an intern status and a salary for exempt purposes. The employer who tries this tactic could be fined by the DOL. Hiring Interns under the new Federal Overtime Laws and FLSA
 
By definition of the FLSA, paid interns are considered employees and are subject to all the legal benefits of employees. This includes minimum wage. Additionally, this means that if they are full-time interns, they are subject to employee benefits. Then, paid interns are also subject to the updates in the new overtime rules.

This means that interns that make under $47,476 are eligible for overtime pay. Overtime pay is defined at time and a half. Interns that do make above the salary threshold may be subject to an exempt status. However, it would be difficult to maintain both an intern status and a salary for exempt purposes. The employer who tries this tactic could be fined by the DOL. Hiring Interns under the new Federal Overtime Laws and FLSA

Interns are exempt from minimum wage laws..... under the professional exemption rule.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
By definition of the FLSA, paid interns are considered employees
Then the title in bold "The Test for Unpaid Interns and Students" doesn't apply -- that was my point. You keep putting misleading headings on stuff that has nothing to do with your argument (like the bolded paragraph in your first post about private practice salaries).
 
[/QUOTE]
Interns are exempt from minimum wage laws..... under the professional exemption rule.
Random side comment: One particular place I externed at killed their internship because their legal team found legitimate loopholes in this exemption that would have made them vulnerable to legal action. I haven't thoroughly read the documents at hand, so I wouldn't be able to speculate the specifics or anything.

Unfortunate, it was one of the already few zoo internships out there.
 
Then the title in bold "The Test for Unpaid Interns and Students" doesn't apply -- that was my point. You keep putting misleading headings on stuff that has nothing to do with your argument (like the bolded paragraph in your first post about private practice salaries).
You are correct. It doesn’t apply. I have it removed.
—-
Private practice salary might be useful for folks that get internship hoping to be making more, and don’t want to specialize.
Speaking of specialization, number of people told me that niche is over saturated and unless you are very gifted and lucky to land yourself position in referral practice, otherwise you will end up in academia where wages not that different from private practice.
Please correct me if that is not correct information.
 
Speaking of specialization, number of people told me that niche is over saturated and unless you are very gifted and lucky to land yourself position in referral practice, otherwise you will end up in academia
It's pretty variable, depending on the specialty and the location.
 
My guess is Surgery and Radiology are highest in demand. (My first thought was Surgery and Internal Medicine, but then I remembered the huge salaries Radiologists are drawing these days, so they must be in high demand.)
 
In small animal, Cardiology, Dermatology, Neurology, Oncology, Ophthalmology, Surgery, Radiation oncology, and Radiology are all in high demand right now. Our residents are signing contracts in the low to mid-6 figure range right out of residency, often working 4 day weeks. An experienced specialist working on production can make more.

William Thomas
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm in my last year of a surgery residency and there is no shortage of jobs for surgeons in academia or private practice, as long as you aren't geographically limited. There are literally 3-4 new job listings posted every other day it seems. Can't speak for other specialties but I have never heard of a resident not being able to find a job right out of residency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
In my area, every specialty hospital is dying for more surgeons, cardiologists, and dermatologists. Market is definitely not saturated for behaviorists and dentists either. Radiologists who are available for abdominal ultrasounds are hard to come by. Even oncology referrals are backed up I can't get a patient in to see someone for weeks.

I don't see many ads for criticalists or anesthesiologists. Every ER is understaffed, but not sure if they're looking to hire residency trained.
 
If you'd be into academia, I'm pretty sure multiple schools are begging for radiologists that are in house right now. I don't know that you'd get the same salary a private practice radiologist would get though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If you'd be into academia, I'm pretty sure multiple schools are begging for radiologists that are in house right now. I don't know that you'd get the same salary a private practice radiologist would get though.

Last I read, almost half of the vet schools are looking for in house boarded rads folks, either with blatant job postings or feeling out the different reidencies. The reason is that the schools simply can't pay even close to what rads folks make sitting at home with their families as consultants online through VetCT and those sorts of corporations.
 
I'm in my last year of a surgery residency and there is no shortage of jobs for surgeons in academia or private practice, as long as you aren't geographically limited. There are literally 3-4 new job listings posted every other day it seems. Can't speak for other specialties but I have never heard of a resident not being able to find a job right out of residency.

In my area, every specialty hospital is dying for more surgeons, cardiologists, and dermatologists. Market is definitely not saturated for behaviorists and dentists either. Radiologists who are available for abdominal ultrasounds are hard to come by. Even oncology referrals are backed up I can't get a patient in to see someone for weeks.

I don't see many ads for criticalists or anesthesiologists. Every ER is understaffed, but not sure if they're looking to hire residency trained.

Things must have changed.
This older analysis by AVMA suggests
we estimated that nationally there was 17% excess capacity for veterinary services in private clinical practice (under Scenario 1). National estimates of excess capacity for veterinary services were highest for equine practice (23% excess capacity), followed by small animal (18%), food animal (15%), and mixed practices (13%).


Income situation from 2006 to 2012 was also not very compelling.


We estimated that the supply for veterinarians (90,200) in the U.S. in 2012 exceeded demand for veterinarians (78,950) by approximately 11,250 (or excess capacity of 12.5%) at the current levels of prices for services. Because a large proportion of veterinarians were self-employed and unemployment rates for veterinarians were low, this excess capacity took the form of under- employment rather than unemployment. Between 2012 and 2025, under a baseline scenario we projected that both supply and demand would grow by about 11% (reaching demand of 88,100 and supply of 100,400 by 2025).
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Reports/Documents/Veterinarian-Workforce-Final-Report.pdf
If anyone has recent data, please do share.
 
This older analysis by AVMA suggests
we estimated that nationally there was 17% excess capacity for veterinary services in private clinical practice
That applies to all veterinarians, not just specialists. And I'm sure it's right (in total numbers), because vet schools are graduating larger and larger classes (i.e. more and more vets) each year -- I suspect in amounts exceeding the retirement rate and increased need for vet services.
 
Top