Virginia tech Carilion Full Accreditation

[AnonymousD.O.]

---

Members don't see this ad.

http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2014/06/061914-vtc-accreditation.html

Congrats. Well deserved, VT rules (obviously) and although I haven't rotated there yet (as a VCOM student), Carilion seems like an amazing place. Go Hokies!

VT-MD should be proud, there are a lot of schools out struggling a bit for the full accreditation for various reasons, and you did it right on time, after the first graduating class. Impressive.

 

[PL198]

I'm not really sure of how the accreditation process works for these types of deals, but I don't really see why anyone would be in that first class. What happens if they don't get accredited? I'd assume the first classes generally have lax entrance stats due to this fact?

 

[sinombre]

I'm not really sure of how the accreditation process works for these types of deals, but I don't really see why anyone would be in that first class. What happens if they don't get accredited? I'd assume the first classes generally have lax entrance stats due to this fact?

A few things come to mind (I had to decide whether or not to attend a new school for personal reasons).

1) LCME preliminary accreditation is not easy to get, and I'm assuming schools that are able to get preliminary accreditation and then subsequently lose accreditation are not common (although this is conjecture, I can't find any evidence to support or refute this... I'm making this assumption because I know how difficult it is to get preliminary accreditation).

2) Financial aid... new schools often provide significant financial aid in order to convince applicants to attend (like UCF giving full tuition scholarships to its entire inaugural class, which I believe had relatively high "entrance stats" as you call them).
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/30/news/economy/healthcare_medicalschool_free/

3) UCF's inaugural class match list: http://med.ucf.edu/media/2012/08/Match-Results-2013-without-names.pdf

 

[theseeker4]

A few things come to mind (I had to decide whether or not to attend a new school for personal reasons).

1) LCME preliminary accreditation is not easy to get, and I'm assuming schools that are able to get preliminary accreditation and then subsequently lose accreditation are not common (although this is conjecture, I can't find any evidence to support or refute this... I'm making this assumption because I know how difficult it is to get preliminary accreditation).

2) Financial aid... new schools often provide significant financial aid in order to convince applicants to attend (like UCF giving full tuition scholarships to its entire inaugural class, which I believe had relatively high "entrance stats" as you call them).
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/30/news/economy/healthcare_medicalschool_free/

3) UCF's inaugural class match list: http://med.ucf.edu/media/2012/08/Match-Results-2013-without-names.pdf

To add onto these reasons above:
4) the huge excess of qualified applicants compared to number of seats means that there are certain to be plenty of students willing to go to a new medical school instead of not get in anywhere

5) some people love the idea of being the first do so something, being part of the first graduating class of a new medical school will appeal to those people.

 

[Psai]

A few things come to mind (I had to decide whether or not to attend a new school for personal reasons).

1) LCME preliminary accreditation is not easy to get, and I'm assuming schools that are able to get preliminary accreditation and then subsequently lose accreditation are not common (although this is conjecture, I can't find any evidence to support or refute this... I'm making this assumption because I know how difficult it is to get preliminary accreditation).

2) Financial aid... new schools often provide significant financial aid in order to convince applicants to attend (like UCF giving full tuition scholarships to its entire inaugural class, which I believe had relatively high "entrance stats" as you call them).
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/30/news/economy/healthcare_medicalschool_free/

3) UCF's inaugural class match list: http://med.ucf.edu/media/2012/08/Match-Results-2013-without-names.pdf

It takes a lot of time and effort to make a medical school, I doubt anyone would try to open one if they weren't sure that they can get accreditation.

 

[DermViser]

To add onto these reasons above:
5) some people love the idea of being the first do so something, being part of the first graduating class of a new medical school will appeal to those people.

And then they're absolutely shocked when they have a much harder time netting interviews even in non-competitive specialties, unless they're top of the class, AOA, etc. They're a huge downside to going to a new medical school. That being said if you look at the list and see the terminal residencies people got - it's not bad at all to not have ANY debt. It's a great situation to be in.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

LCME should update it on their website: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

I'm not really sure of how the accreditation process works for these types of deals, but I don't really see why anyone would be in that first class. What happens if they don't get accredited? I'd assume the first classes generally have lax entrance stats due to this fact?

I went to TCMC for their Masters Post Bac and they were going through their first class as well. Some of the students liked being able to help shape the school and leave their mark. I don't know how VT was, but TCMC took a a lot of student input from students. And like you said, less competitive in some respects although the VT students MCATs and research experience for that first class were insane. I think they may have given some financial scholarships to the first class like @sinombre was saying, which attracted some really bright students. I personally however wouldn't want to be in that first class unless I had to. To many unknowns

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

A few things come to mind (I had to decide whether or not to attend a new school for personal reasons).

1) LCME preliminary accreditation is not easy to get, and I'm assuming schools that are able to get preliminary accreditation and then subsequently lose accreditation are not common (although this is conjecture, I can't find any evidence to support or refute this... I'm making this assumption because I know how difficult it is to get preliminary accreditation).

2) Financial aid... new schools often provide significant financial aid in order to convince applicants to attend (like UCF giving full tuition scholarships to its entire inaugural class, which I believe had relatively high "entrance stats" as you call them).
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/30/news/economy/healthcare_medicalschool_free/

3) UCF's inaugural class match list: http://med.ucf.edu/media/2012/08/Match-Results-2013-without-names.pdf

TCMC. This is one reason why I was a little shocked that VT-Carilion got it so soon. TCMC has been on stage 3 for a while. They had some financial problems that put them on hold and are just graduated their second class. Not sure what is going on there but they are a school that seems to be in stage 3 limbo.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

For a small class their match list was very respectable too.

http://www.vtc.vt.edu/education/student_affairs/files/match_day_2014_results.pdf

 

[KinasePro]

For a small class their match list was very respectable too.

http://www.vtc.vt.edu/education/student_affairs/files/match_day_2014_results.pdf

Hate to be the stereotypical SDN'er, but a match list by itself doesn't tell us anything. Sure, there are some recognizable names and competitive specialties, but how many people failed to match in their chosen specialty? How many baller students faced bias on the interview trail? How many wanted to go to the west coast or northeast but couldn't get interviews? How many would have done better at the other VA schools (EVMS/VCU/UVa), all things being equal? Impossible to know without speaking to the class members.

As someone going into a competitive field who has spoken to many residents and graduating med students in that field, med school name and reputation are HUGE factors, especially at top institutions.

That being said, kudos to the students that got what they wanted. Sounds like it's definitely a pretty sweet deal for them.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Hate to be the stereotypical SDN'er, but a match list by itself doesn't tell us anything. Sure, there are some recognizable names and competitive specialties, but how many people failed to match in their chosen specialty? How many baller students faced bias on the interview trail? How many wanted to go to the west coast or northeast but couldn't get interviews? How many would have done better at the other VA schools (EVMS/VCU/UVa), all things being equal? Impossible to know without speaking to the class members.

As someone going into a competitive field who has spoken to many residents and graduating med students in that field, med school name and reputation are HUGE factors, especially at top institutions.

That being said, kudos to the students that got what they wanted. Sounds like it's definitely a pretty sweet deal for them.

Very very good points. I am guilty of looking at match lists and judging way too much but keeping what you said at least in the back of ones mind is helpful. I think your post should be at the top of every annual match list thread haha

 

[Serous Demilune]

As someone going into a competitive field who has spoken to many residents and graduating med students in that field, med school name and reputation are HUGE factors, especially at top institutions.

What percentage of doctors work in academics? And what percentage of academic doctors come from the top 5 residency programs in their respective fields? I'd hazard a guess at pretty small for both. In other words, who gives a ****? Unless the only way you value your self-worth is through other people's thoughts on your training. The problem is, they don't really give a **** either.

 

[KinasePro]

What percentage of doctors work in academics? And what percentage of academic doctors come from the top 5 residency programs in their respective fields? I'd hazard a guess at pretty small for both. In other words, who gives a ****? Unless the only way you value your self-worth is through other people's thoughts on your training. The problem is, they don't really give a **** either.

Or some people just want the flexibility to have a successful academic OR private practice career after residency, and just want to keep those options open. Or they just prefer their pedigree to be prestigious. No use in knocking people who aspire to train at the big hospitals, as bolded. If that's what they want, good luck to em.

The point is that these are important things to consider before going to a brand new school. Not that there's anything wrong with these places, but most would consider this a drawback.

 

[atomi]

For a small class their match list was very respectable too.

http://www.vtc.vt.edu/education/student_affairs/files/match_day_2014_results.pdf

Are you serious? That is not a great match list. Lots of prelim years, lesser known academic programs, and community programs.

 

[atomi]

how many people failed to match in their chosen specialty?

Lots as evidenced by the number of prelim years on the match list. Unless they are for some reason not listing the terminal match on the match list, which I have never ever heard of a school doing.

 

[Psai]

Are you serious? That is not a great match list. Lots of prelim years, lesser known academic programs, and community programs.

Well they do have two orthos and Duke anesthesiology is legit but yeah you have a good point.

 

[KinasePro]

Lots as evidenced by the number of prelim years on the match list. Unless they are for some reason not listing the terminal match on the match list, which I have never ever heard of a school doing.

Well there's only 3 prelims w/o advanced positions, but you're right. At least 3 people likely got hosed. I honestly didn't even look at the list that closely until you mentioned it.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Are you serious? That is not a great match list. Lots of prelim years, lesser known academic programs, and community programs.

I don't see many lesser known academic programs, there are a few scattered in there but they have state institutions scattered throughout the list pretty consistently. The majority of the community based programs they matched too were family medicine residencies, which may have been by choice considering the specialty

Internal Medicine matches at UNC, Georgtown, George Washington, Wake Forest (all impressive for internal medicine obviously) and one Prelim Carilion Clinic which probably was a low match choice or they failed to match, but overall solid.

I may be ignorant to exactly what a prelim year entails, but the two preliminary years for Radiology are for in house Carilion Clinic Residencies (which aren't as good as going somewhere else, I get that) but doesn't that just mean their terminal match was in Radiology, not necessarily that they didn't match. The other preliminary years were all for General Surgery (except one) and isn't that pretty typical for surgery?

Besides, I didn't say it was the best match list ever. I said it was very respectable. Especially when comparing it to other schools first graduating classes recently.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The other preliminary years were all for General Surgery (except one) and isn't that pretty typical for surgery?

No. A prelim general surgery year is typically considered as a last resort. I'd venture those were students who couldn't get anything else.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

No. A prelim general surgery year is typically considered as a last resort. I'd venture those were students who couldn't get anything else.

Thanks for that, @atomi is right then, it does seem that there were some holes in the match list then. I just don't know enough about them to interpret them. Nonetheless, the accreditation is great for the school and it seems to be doing better than most start ups.

 

[username456789]

. I just don't know enough about them to interpret them.

This is an all-too-common problem in general for premeds and medical students alike.

Of course, it rarely stops them from espousing their expertly inexpert opinions.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks for that, @atomi is right then, it does seem that there were some holes in the match list then. I just don't know enough about them to interpret them. Nonetheless, the accreditation is great for the school and it seems to be doing better than most start ups.

As GWDS notes, this is why trying to interpret match lists is difficult for those outside the loop. Categorical General Surgery is what you want if you are doing surgery; a prelim position might end up with a categorical surgery position but for many it's a dead end. In addition, for specialties that require a Prelim year (such as Radiology), surgery is usually the last one preferred.

That being said, although there are some "holes" and many of the matches are at their home program (usually not a difficult match for most), there are some positive signs and I agree the program is heading in the right direction,

 

[atomi]

Interpreting a match list is not easy. Schools use it to brag to local media that "100% of their students matched" or something like that.

First you have to look at the school's mission and where it historically places graduates.
Then you have to look at the number of matches in competitive specialties: ortho, derm, rad onc, ent, optho, neurosurg, uro, and plastics.
Then you have to look at the IM, anesthesia, rads, etc. matches. Were they at competitive academic locations or community programs?
Then you have to look at primary care matches and see if it falls in line with the school's mission and historical placement.
Then you have to look at the number of students who matched in-house. Then in-state. Unless it's California, if only 30% of the students are getting out of the state, that's a problem. Looking at this match list, the vast majority are staying in or pretty close to Virginia. Are most of their class native Virginians? I would guess probably not.
Then you have to look at the prelim and transitional year matches. Ideally there should be zero of these. A surgery prelim almost always indicates a scramble after failing to match a surgical specialty. A prelim med or transitional year typically indicates a partially matched applicant.
Then you have to dig and find out how many students dropped out/failed out, deferred for an MS5 year, took a research fellowship, or a non-clinical post grad job. These typically are not published on the list.

It's not easy.

It's not a bad match list, but considering the scholarship the school offered to cherry pick a high GPA/MCAT first year class, most students likely could have gone to top 20 med schools. I'd wager there are a couple who'd rather be in debt and have a solid sub-specialty match off the bat.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Thanks for the comments. This is why I like student doctor, people with more experience can shed light on many different things that you don't know about. As long as people don't wine when they are corrected, a problem with most of my peers I think, you can learn a lot. (((and apparently I have horrible grammar too *whine))

 

[username456789]

Then you have to look at the prelim and transitional year matches. Ideally there should be zero of these. A surgery prelim almost always indicates a scramble after failing to match a surgical specialty. A prelim med or transitional year typically indicates a partially matched applicant.

I would amend this to read "prelim-only and transitional year-only matches." Many schools do publish the Prelim/TY destinations alongside terminal specialty matches for students (e.g. Prelim Medicine - Princeton University Medical Center; Radiation Oncology - Hogwarts Academy). While it is self-evident to you and me that this person does not fit into your description above, it is best to use more clear language so as to minimize inevitable confusion.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I would amend this to read "prelim-only and transitional year-only matches." Many schools do publish the Prelim/TY destinations alongside terminal specialty matches for students (e.g. Prelim Medicine - Princeton University Medical Center; Radiation Oncology - Hogwarts Academy). While it is self-evident to you and me that this person does not fit into your description above, it is best to use more clear language so as to minimize inevitable confusion.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

I would amend this to read "prelim-only and transitional year-only matches." Many schools do publish the Prelim/TY destinations alongside terminal specialty matches for students (e.g. Prelim Medicine - Princeton University Medical Center; Radiation Oncology - Hogwarts Academy). While it is self-evident to you and me that this person does not fit into your description above, it is best to use more clear language so as to minimize inevitable confusion.

I think that is one of the things that I have been really getting confused with. For instance, some of the Neurology programs I am interested in, like Maryland University, Penn State, etc. has a Preliminary Year for their first year residents, that then go onto the Neurology Residency in that school.

I had assumed that the Surgery Residencies like on this match list were the same thing. It is very different I suppose.

 

[username456789]

I think that is one of the things that I have been really getting confused with. For instance, some of the Neurology programs I am interested in, like Maryland University, Penn State, etc. has a Preliminary Year for their first year residents, that then go onto the Neurology Residency in that school.

I had assumed that the Surgery Residencies like on this match list were the same thing. It is very different I suppose.

A prelim medicine or transitional year program should be a means to an end. For some unfortunate applicants, it is the end.

In general, a surgical preliminary here is a dead end/last resort with nothing guaranteed beyond one year of cheap labor. Depending on how it's worded, some surgical subspecialties like urology will list their first year of training as a preliminary surgery year. This is generally, but not always, included at the same institution for which they have matched their advanced program.

A similar phenomenon occurs in some of the non-surgical specialties like neurology or anesthesiology. For the specialties, some programs have a joint/connected preliminary medicine year that one must complete as part of their training prior to starting their PGY2 year. Other programs allow you to pursue a prelim or transitional you wherever you want, and you start at the advanced institution for PGY2. This is also made more complicated to you by the fact that some people may voluntarily choose to have their preliminary medicine year at the same institution at which they have matched for, say, neurology, even though they are not required to do so.

 

[sinombre]

@GuyWhoDoesStuff @Winged Scapula

Just out of curiosity, what happens to those who do a prelim year and then fail to land a categorical spot? And to those that are able to match (into surgery), do they have to repeat PGY-1?

 

[PL198]

I'm confused. So my school is one of the schools that lists the transition year and the terminal residency on their match list. Is the student guaranteed the second one? I think I only saw a few people that just had a transition, so those would be the ones not guaranteed?

 

[atomi]

@GuyWhoDoesStuff @Winged Scapula

Just out of curiosity, what happens to those who do a prelim year and then fail to land a categorical spot? And to those that are able to match (into surgery), do they have to repeat PGY-1?

Various things. Prelim med interns can usually (or so I have heard) find a pgy-2 somewhere in IM if they want it and look hard enough. Or worst case they re-enter the match for a PGY-1 categorical position in IM or something else like FM or EM. Prelim surgery interns usually have a hard time getting a PGY-2 categorical spot and typically have to repeat PGY-1 if they are able to find an opening or go through the match again. And then there are those who complete PGY-1 years, take step 3, and do various clinical jobs that don't require residency. I don't really know what options are out there (prison/govt jobs, opportunities in rural areas, etc.), but a completed pgy-1 gives you a lot more options than just an MD with no GME.

 

[atomi]

I'm confused. So my school is one of the schools that lists the transition year and the terminal residency on their match list. Is the student guaranteed the second one? I think I only saw a few people that just had a transition, so those would be the ones not guaranteed?

For residencies that require a preliminary year, fourth year med students have the absolute joy of interviewing for two separate specialties and match to two separate programs on match day: their preliminary program and their advanced programs. If the advanced program is listed, then yes, they are guaranteed that because they have matched to it as long as they don't blow their intern year.

Match lists typically don't list the prelim match for people in these specialties. They just say JoeyJoJo Shabadoo Jr. MD matched to rad-onc at MD Anderson and don't mention his no-name transitional year in BFE, michigan. Some match lists give both. I've never heard of a match list that doesn't give the advanced though, so if you only see a prelim year, that person DOES NOT have a match that will lead to board certification.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm confused. So my school is one of the schools that lists the transition year and the terminal residency on their match list. Is the student guaranteed the second one? I think I only saw a few people that just had a transition, so those would be the ones not guaranteed?

Students match for the Transitional Year (TY) and the Advanced position at the same time. While one assumes that they are guaranteed the Advanced ("terminal residency"), that presumes satisfactory completion of their intern year.

Those without an Advanced residency listed presumably don't have a position for next year.

 

[PL198]

What % of schools don't list the transitional year for people that match into the advanced position ? Just curious, obviously a rough guess is fine .

 

[mvenus929]

What % of schools don't list the transitional year for people that match into the advanced position ? Just curious, obviously a rough guess is fine .

If a school lists any rad onc, radiology, derm, PM&R, urology, or ophtho (I'm sure I'm missing some) positions without an associated PGY-1 position, they only list the advanced position.

 

[Winged Scapula]

What % of schools don't list the transitional year for people that match into the advanced position ? Just curious, obviously a rough guess is fine .

Somewhere between 1 and 99%.

LOL..I don't think your answer is obtainable without getting a match list from every school.

 

[PL198]

Somewhere between 1 and 99%.

LOL..I don't think your answer is obtainable without getting a match list from every school.

Noobs gonna noob. It's kinda scary how much of medical school/the process even a medical student doesn't understand. I feel I'm much more well-versed on these subjects than my average peer and I still feel like I know nothing. The whole " you don't know what you don't know," seems really applicable.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Noobs gonna noob. It's kinda scary how much of medical school/the process even a medical student doesn't understand. I feel I'm much more well-versed on these subjects than my average peer and I still feel like I know nothing. The whole " you don't know what you don't know," seems really applicable.

You should've seen what it was like "back in the day". Almost everything was a mystery with lots of misinformation. It was one of the reasons I was drawn to the fledgling SDN because most advisors didn't seem to know as much as I could glean on my own by talking to medical students and residents I worked with.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Noobs gonna noob. It's kinda scary how much of medical school/the process even a medical student doesn't understand. I feel I'm much more well-versed on these subjects than my average peer and I still feel like I know nothing. The whole " you don't know what you don't know," seems really applicable.

I think this is one of the biggest benefits of student doctor, because this process is pretty complicated and there aren't that many resources out there that I have found the lay out specifically all the different pathways one can take. Student doctor is about the best resource I think. I know "advisers" sure don't know what is going on. Most of the time they are either old doctors that don't know the current process, or Ph.Ds that are clueless, at least at my school.

 

[danse]

You should've seen what it was like "back in the day". Almost everything was a mystery with lots of misinformation. It was one of the reasons I was drawn to the fledgling SDN because most advisors didn't seem to know as much as I could glean on my own by talking to medical students and residents I worked with.

Hey,

I'm actually one of those people who knows nothing about the match. Is there a thread which addresses tips/things to look out for while getting ready for the match? I've started reading the nrmp website.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hey,

I'm actually one of those people who knows nothing about the match. Is there a thread which addresses tips/things to look out for while getting ready for the match? I've started reading the nrmp website.

Have you gone to the ERAS/NRMP forum?

 

[danse]

Have you gone to the ERAS/NRMP forum?

No. I hadn't seen that! Thank you!

 

[DocVapor]

You should've seen what it was like "back in the day". Almost everything was a mystery with lots of misinformation. It was one of the reasons I was drawn to the fledgling SDN because most advisors didn't seem to know as much as I could glean on my own by talking to medical students and residents I worked with.

I can't count how many times I have heard advisers (at various schools at various levels) say something along the lines of "Don't trust anything you see on that 'Student Doctor' website. "

That's when I know to stop listening to them. I can read things and filter out the bad from the good, thank you.

 

[DermViser]

As GWDS notes, this is why trying to interpret match lists is difficult for those outside the loop. Categorical General Surgery is what you want if you are doing surgery; a prelim position might end up with a categorical surgery position but for many it's a dead end. In addition, for specialties that require a Prelim year (such as Radiology), surgery is usually the last one preferred.

That being said, although there are some "holes" and many of the matches are at their home program (usually not a difficult match for most), there are some positive signs and I agree the program is heading in the right direction,

I just think that VA has ENOUGH medical schools. They have EVMS, UVa, and VCU. That's enough.

 

[DermViser]

I can't count how many times I have heard advisers (at various schools at various levels) say something along the lines of "Don't trust anything you see on that 'Student Doctor' website. "

That's when I know to stop listening to them. I can read things and filter out the bad from the good, thank you.

And yet there are medical school administrators that monitor this site avidly.

 

[DermViser]

For a small class their match list was very respectable too.

http://www.vtc.vt.edu/education/student_affairs/files/match_day_2014_results.pdf

Really?

 

[DermViser]

You should've seen what it was like "back in the day". Almost everything was a mystery with lots of misinformation. It was one of the reasons I was drawn to the fledgling SDN because most advisors didn't seem to know as much as I could glean on my own by talking to medical students and residents I worked with.

I agree. Students now have TONS of internet resources to access to assess specialties, what's needed, etc. Before 1999, I seriously don't know what students did, bc Student Affairs offices are just as deluded now as they were back then, esp. Deans of Student Affairs who are more administrative figure heads than student advocates. If anything, they'd much rather have you pick something easy, so it makes their jobs easy and the school can say you matched.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I can't count how many times I have heard advisers (at various schools at various levels) say something along the lines of "Don't trust anything you see on that 'Student Doctor' website. "

That's when I know to stop listening to them. I can read things and filter out the bad from the good, thank you.

Yep.

I think they've either seen or heard that the PreMed forums are full of the blind leading the blind and forget about the vast amount of accurate information or correction of the misunderstandings.

Oh and job security.

 

[DermViser]

http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2014/06/061914-vtc-accreditation.html

Congrats. Well deserved, VT rules (obviously) and although I haven't rotated there yet (as a VCOM student), Carilion seems like an amazing place. Go Hokies!

VT-MD should be proud, there are a lot of schools out struggling a bit for the full accreditation for various reasons, and you did it right on time, after the first graduating class. Impressive.

So does Virginia Tech also have an osteopathic med school as well? http://www.google.com/#q=edward+via+college+of+osteopathic+medicine+Virginia+Tech