Volunteering in the OR!

[rtmcad2319]

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So I was volunteering in a hospital ER room and became really bored. I decided to head up to the OR. Asking if I could watch a routine gallbladder surgery the surgeon said sure and we both "scrubbed in." Then out of no where the surgeon asked if I wanted to assist and I answered "gladly." I made a small incision and he finished up the surgery. I thanked him and he said it was his pleasure, but now I want to assist in more surgeries! Should I go ask him or just look at this as a 'lucky as all hell' experience that's not going to happen very often?

 

[ambrosia]

Seroiusly? I mean it's probably cool for you that you had that opportunity and all, but I'm sure thats not legal, and there are a lot of liability issues. What if a surgeon lets a volunteer make an incision and the student messes up? I think you should be glad you had the opportunity, but I would try to avoid doing something like that again, because it could get both you and the surgeon into big trouble. Sorry to burst your bubble, but thats how I feel about the situation.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Um, shadowing is to learn what physicians do, not to learn to do what the physicians do. You should have proper training before you're allowed near a live person with a scalpel.

 

[DrThom]

I work in an OR...I scrub in on about 7-10 cases a week. It is a very cool job, you should look into doing it

 

[rtmcad2319]

Seroiusly? I mean it's probably cool for you that you had that opportunity and all, but I'm sure thats not legal, and there are a lot of liability issues. What if a surgeon lets a volunteer make an incision and the student messes up? I think you should be glad you had the opportunity, but I would try to avoid doing something like that again, because it could get both you and the surgeon into big trouble. Sorry to burst your bubble, but thats how I feel about the situation.

WOW WOW WOW!
It's is perfectly legal! You obviously need to learn a little here. The senior doctor is allowed to let 'anyone' he feels fit to assist him. What do you think happens when an intern makes a mistake in surgery? These things happen, but I plan on being on of the top surgeons in the country so they probably will happen less frequently in my practice!

 

[Scubadoc]

eek that is scary as hell....i would really be pissed if i found out some volunteer had made an incision on me during surgery. no offense to the OP-it just seems a little nuts. scrubbing in is one thing, making a cut is entirely different.

 

[rtmcad2319]

Um, shadowing is to learn what physicians do, not to learn to do what the physicians do. You should have proper training before you're allowed near a live person with a scalpel.

You're right it is sooo hard to listen to someone point and say 'cut here.' It's not rocket science!

 

[rtmcad2319]

eek that is scary as hell....i would really be pissed if i found out some volunteer had made an incision on me during surgery. no offense to the OP-it just seems a little nuts. scrubbing in is one thing, making a cut is entirely different.

Boo!

 

[freesolo]

do you have training like patient care tech or anything? I dont have any i volunteer in the ER help the triage nurse, i want to do OR, but didnt think theyd let me do much with no training.

 

[ambrosia]

Well, legal or not, if I had surgery and found out some unqualified kid made my incision I would sure as hell not be to happy. Its just sketchy.

 

[rtmcad2319]

do you have training like patient care tech or anything? I dont have any i volunteer in the ER help the triage nurse, i want to do OR, but didnt think theyd let me do much with no training.

Nope not one day of training but I did stay in a Holiday Inn the night before

Joking aside, I study A and P for 'fun' (been in a Gross lab and know what's what for the most part) so I could talk easily with the surgeon and I he felt I could be trusted.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Your right it is sooo hard to listen to someone point and say 'cut here.' It's not rocket science!

Grammar police says, "you're."

It's not rocket science! It's just putting a blade to a live person.

 

[rtmcad2319]

Well, legal or not, if I had surgery and found out some unqualified kid made my incision I would sure as hell not be to happy. Its just sketchy.

Well the surgery was a 100% success...therefore I feel that am as qualified as I need to be! Plus it was not neuro, it was a simple gallbladder operation!

 

[rtmcad2319]

Grammar police says, "you're."

It's not rocket science! It's just putting a blade to a live person.

thank you for the grammer correction!

 

[ambrosia]

Well congratulations, just hope you don't get sued one day. I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just pointing out that there are risks associated with it, and you should consider that too, before deciding to go back to the doctor and ask if you can "shadow" him again.

 

[g3pro]

I volunteer on weekends as an orthopedic surgeon.











What?

 

[fullefect1]

That surgeon will loose his right to practice if anyone important finds out.

 

[rtmcad2319]

That surgeon will loose his right to practice if anyone important finds out.

FALSE but thank you for playing!

 

[rtmcad2319]

I volunteer on weekends as an orthopedic surgeon.











What?

 

[Scubadoc]

Well the surgery was a 100% success...therefore I feel that am as qualified as I need to be!

LOL! on second thought, i think you should write about this in your personal statement. 👍

 

[rtmcad2319]

Well congratulations, just hope you don't get sued one day. I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just pointing out that there are risks associated with it, and you should consider that too, before deciding to go back to the doctor and ask if you can "shadow" him again.

I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul!
Seriously did you think of any valid reasons why that person would sue.
"Oh well my surgery went too well I better sue someone!"
Yeah ok try again latter!

 

[rtmcad2319]

LOL! on second thought, i think you should write about this in your personal statement. 👍

Good idea!
Actually I will write about my experiences that lead me to yearn to becoming a doctor!

 

[brynn7]

In what kind of hospital can you just decide to just "head up to the OR"? Is there only one of these magical OR's in your magical hospital? There are usually surgical suites with lots of nurses and doctors and techs wandering around asking you who you are if they don't know you. There are usually doors that lock that you need to puch in a code to enter. I follow the chief of cardiovascular surgery around on a regular basis and people still try to kick me out of the cath lab and such on occasion. When I started watching bypass surgeries I was required to have a TB test and other stuff and I had to sign all kinds of forms and so did the surgeons. You can't just wander into an operation and decide to start your surgical career on a whim. Please tell me what hospital this is. 😱

 

[rtmcad2319]

In what kind of hospital can you just decide to just "head up to the OR"? Is there only one of these magical OR's in your magical hospital? There are usually surgical suites with lots of nurses and doctors and techs wandering around asking you who you are if they don't know you. There are usually doors that lock that you need to puch in a code to enter. I follow the chief of cardiovascular surgery around on a regular basis and people still try to kick me out of the cath lab and such on occasion. When I started watching bypass surgeries I was required to have a TB test and other stuff and I had to sign all kinds of forms and so did the surgeons. You can't just wander into an operation and decide to start your surgical career on a whim. Please tell me what hospital this is. 😱

Well since I am a registered volunteer I have a security pass/badge and I have been tested for TB. I am allowed to go from section to section in the hospital w/out being harassed. That is unfortunate that they give you such a hard time at the hospital you volunteer at. The doctors here really are great and I am sorry you do not have the chance to experience all they have to offer.

 

[UT_OC]

So I was volunteering in a hospital ER room and became really bored. I decided to head up to the OR. Asking if I could watch a routine gallbladder surgery the surgeon said sure and we both "scrubbed in." Then out of no where the surgeon asked if I wanted to assist and I answered "gladly." I made a small incision and he finished up the surgery. I thanked him and he said it was his pleasure, but now I want to assist in more surgeries! Should I go ask him or just look at this as a 'lucky as all hell' experience that's not going to happen very often?

Ask.. he will probably let you scrub in on all his cases. I work in the OR as Clinical Assistant.. and I get to scrub in occasionally.. b/c I have to work.. and the docs love ppl asking to help and teaching ppl (except the bitch docs). But yea.. ask for more assisting.. I've done probably more than 15 different types of surgeries.. its a very very bad a$* experience.

 

[BlackstarNYC]

This is so shady- I'd sue if I found out.

 

[rtmcad2319]

This is so shady- I'd sue if I found out.

Thats nice to sue someone for:
Performing a great service to you!
Helping a fellow pre-me have the most exciting day of his life!

You are really a nice person and I hope you have a great night!

 

[BlackstarNYC]

Well, wouldn't you feel an obligation as a patient to tell others that X hospital is allowing non-medical personnel cut you open?

 

[susannaQ]

All hospitals have different regulations and policies. But, if you had done anything wrong, it would have been completely and utterly the surgeon's fault so he must have really trusted you to let you do that.

A small incision under the direction of a teacher is no big deal unless a psychomaniac is doing it so I wouldn't mind if my surgeon let a student do this to me or one of my family members during surgery. It probably creates a better atmosphere to have interested students around which would, in turn, maybe increase the chances of a successful surgery?

Yeah, I wouldn't EXPECT or demand or push to be let to scrub in as a volunteer on a regular basis but what can it hurt if you show your eagerness and willingness to learn to the surgeon? If anything, it would be a compliment.

 

[rtmcad2319]

All hospitals have different regulations and policies. But, if you had done anything wrong, it would have been completely and utterly the surgeon's fault so he must have really trusted you to let you do that.

A small incision under the direction of a teacher is no big deal unless a psychomaniac is doing it so I wouldn't mind if my surgeon let a student do this to me or one of my family members during surgery. It probably creates a better atmosphere to have interested students around which would, in turn, maybe increase the chances of a successful surgery?

Yeah, I wouldn't EXPECT or demand or push to be let to scrub in as a volunteer on a regular basis but what can it hurt if you show your eagerness and willingness to learn to the surgeon? If anything, it would be a compliment.

Thank you for your logical, encouraging post. It is good to know that some people on the pre-med forum are actually rational.

 

[bonez318ti]

WOW WOW WOW!
What do you think happens when an intern makes a mistake in surgery?

Last time I checked, an intern is a real medical doctor.. having gone through 4 years of medical school and atleast two levels of USMLEs. Just because its easy doesn't mean you are legally allowed to do it... FYI: even people who are medically licensed in other countries (ie: UK) are not allowed to practice medicine in the US without being licensed in the US.

If it came down to a lawsuit, it is no contest.. you wouldnt even have a case.

From the tone of your replies, this sounds awefully like a troll posting just trying to get people to bite.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

As someone who works as a Surgical PA, this is totally unheard of and even count yourself very lucky, and the surgeon for that matter that a bigger stink hasn't been made. The hospital has just as much liability to that patient as does the anesthesia provider and the scrub and circulating nurse. Legally anyone who is in the operating room, student, nurse, etc, becomes part of the medical record and surgical record. If you were a student this would be no problem, you have malpractice insurance as a student, you are under a contract with the physician that is teaching you, etc. For a shadowing person, there is no contract, there is no malpractice insurance. This episode (which I hope it is just that) is absolutely wrong and if you don't agree, go talk to a lawyer or the hospital administrator and see what they think, not the surgeon.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Thank you for your logical, encouraging post. It is good to know that some people on the pre-med forum are actually rational.

I don't know the backround, but if the doctor did not inform the patient that you would be making an incision, both he and you are in the wrong. And the patient would have grounds to sue. Here is an excerpt from the laws regulating medical practice in Virginia:
"The guidelines shall include, but need not be limited to (i) the obtaining of informed consent from all patients or from the next of kin or legally authorized representative, to the extent practical under the circumstances in which medical care is being rendered, when the patient is incapable of making an informed decision, after such patients or other persons have been informed as to which physicians, residents, or interns will perform the surgery or other invasive procedure; "

You may not be in Virginia, but I am fairly sure that such a law exists in every state, I just have no desire to look it all up.

Here is another one from New Hampshire:
329:24 Unlawful Practice. ? Whoever, not being licensed or otherwise authorized according to the law of this state, shall advertise oneself as practicing medicine, or shall practice medicine, according to the meaning of RSA 329, or in any way hold oneself out as qualified so to do, or call oneself a "physician,' or whoever does any such acts after receiving notice that such person's license has been revoked, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor for the first offense; and for any subsequent offense, the person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor if a natural person, or guilty of a felony if any other person.

The meaning of practice is defined:
329:1 Practice. ? Any person shall be regarded as practicing medicine under the meaning of this chapter who shall diagnose, treat, perform surgery, or prescribe any treatment of medicine for any disease or human ailment. "Surgery' means any procedure, including but not limited to laser, in which human tissue is cut, shaped, burned, vaporized, or otherwise structurally altered, except that this section shall not apply to any person to whom authority is given by any other statute to perform acts which might otherwise be deemed the practice of medicine. "Laser' means light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation.

By the way, this does smell an awful lot like troll.

 

[rtmcad2319]

I don't know the backround, but if the doctor did not inform the patient that you would be making an incision, both he and you are in the wrong. And the patient would have grounds to sue. Here is an excerpt from the laws regulating medical practice in Virginia:
"The guidelines shall include, but need not be limited to (i) the obtaining of informed consent from all patients or from the next of kin or legally authorized representative, to the extent practical under the circumstances in which medical care is being rendered, when the patient is incapable of making an informed decision, after such patients or other persons have been informed as to which physicians, residents, or interns will perform the surgery or other invasive procedure; "

You may not be in Virginia, but I am fairly sure that such a law exists in every state, I just have no desire to look it all up.

By the way, this does smell an awful lot like troll.

Well I do not live in Virgina...but thank you for your reply and I will think about that before I go and talk to the doctor.

 

[rtmcad2319]

Last time I checked, an intern is a real medical doctor.. having gone through 4 years of medical school and atleast two levels of USMLEs. Just because its easy doesn't mean you are legally allowed to do it... FYI: even people who are medically licensed in other countries (ie: UK) are not allowed to practice medicine in the US without being licensed in the US.

If it came down to a lawsuit, it is no contest.. you wouldnt even have a case.

From the tone of your replies, this sounds awefully like a troll posting just trying to get people to bite.

FYI: the senior surgeon has complete authority in the OR!

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

FYI: the senior surgeon has complete authority in the OR!

He does not have authority to act contrary to established law. To think othwerwise is plain *****ic.

And how about this law (its from Florida by the way, if that is where you are from)

1458.331 Grounds for disciplinary action; action by the board and department.--...
(f) Aiding, assisting, procuring, or advising any unlicensed person to practice medicine contrary to this chapter or to a rule of the department or the board.

 

[angstrom55]

oh deary me. What kind of hospital has doctors who would let volunteers make the first incision. Why don't you see if the surgeon will let you dig around in the patient the next time you're in the OR.

 

[bonez318ti]

This guy is plainly a troll. He never replies directly to valid responses except for posting obvious and inflammatory statements that just reek 'talk to me!'.

I didn't think that someone with 100+ posts could be a troll, but if you check out his prior postings, most of them aren't very substantive..

If you really aren't a troll, I truely apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

FYI: the senior surgeon has complete authority in the OR!

What a bunch of crap and how naive are you. A surgeon does NOT have complete authority in the OR, it's the hospital that grants Him/Her PRIVLEDGES to practice in that OR. That's who has the authority.

 

[rtmcad2319]

This guy is plainly a troll. He never replies directly to valid responses except for posting obvious and inflammatory statements that just reek 'talk to me!'.

I didn't think that someone with 100+ posts could be a troll, but if you check out his prior postings, most of them aren't very substantive..

If you really aren't a troll, I truely apologize for the misunderstanding.

Well seeing that the coolest thing that has happened to me as a pre-med should, by most of your responses, put me in prison I'm going to bed.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Well seeing that the coolest thing that has happened to me as a pre-med should, by most of your responses, put me in prison I'm going to bed.

hahaha...it is not fun to troll when you get own3d

 

[rtmcad2319]

He does not have authority to act contrary to established law. To think othwerwise is plain *****ic.

And how about this law (its from Florida by the way, if that is where you are from)

1458.331 Grounds for disciplinary action; action by the board and department.--...
(f) Aiding, assisting, procuring, or advising any unlicensed person to practice medicine contrary to this chapter or to a rule of the department or the board.

Lets see here I'm going to be a surgeon one day and this will be one of the reasons why...
I'm sure your knowledge of malpractice law will help you become great doctor/lawyer one day...putting surgeons away for 'inspiring' others!

 

[rtmcad2319]

hahaha...it is not fun to troll when you get own3d

I'm the troll when you are the one sitting there ready for action as: 'Major, I have a medlaw book up my a$$ manmanman'

Little fish don't belong in the ocean!

 

[rtmcad2319]

This guy is plainly a troll. He never replies directly to valid responses except for posting obvious and inflammatory statements that just reek 'talk to me!'.

I didn't think that someone with 100+ posts could be a troll, but if you check out his prior postings, most of them aren't very substantive..

If you really aren't a troll, I truely apologize for the misunderstanding.

I guess it is standard to read all the posts each poster post to get a feel for where they are coming from! Give me a break!

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

I'm the troll when you are the one sitting there ready for action as: 'Major, I have a medlaw book up my a$$ manmanman'

Little fish don't belong in the ocean!

I don't see how any of my posts could be considered trolling...yours on the other hand...

Perhaps you do need to go to bed, you are beginning to lack coherence.

 

[rtmcad2319]

I don't see how any of my posts could be considered trolling...yours on the other hand...

Perhaps you do need to go to bed, you are beginning to lack coherence.

Unlike you I never once called you a troll. I actually thanked you for making me consider all the ramifications of what took place. Yet you are the one who feels I should go to jail/b sued. Real civil of you!

 

[brynn7]

question: what was involved in this "routine gallbladder surgery"? what exactly were they-oh I mean YOU of course 👍 doing? what was the diagnosis?

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Unlike you I never once called you a troll. I actually thanked you for making me consider all the ramifications of what took place. Yet you are the one who feels I should go to jail/b sued. Real civil of you!

Am I wrong to call someone out on something that is, by all accounts, wrong? The fact that I can use google does not make me want to be a lawyer, and in fact, being a lawyer is the last thing I would ever want to do. And I don't think you should be sued, I think the doctor who let you do it should be reprimanded. Not because I am a d!ck, but because its things like that that cause problems for every other doctor that plays by the rules.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Damn troll.

 

[rtmcad2319]

Am I wrong to call someone out on something that is, by all accounts, wrong? The fact that I can use google does not make me want to be a lawyer, and in fact, being a lawyer is the last thing I would ever want to do. And I don't think you should be sued, I think the doctor who let you do it should be reprimanded. Not because I am a d!ck, but because its things like that that cause problems for every other doctor that plays by the rules.

Well I am glad you do not want to me a lawyer. You are not a doctor( I assume) and I have a hard time believing that a senior surgeon would do anything that would put the patient, himself, and myself in danger. All of this on-top-of being liable to be 'reprimanded.' The hospital I volunteer at has many volunteers and it is really a great community. They also win many awards for outstanding patient care so calm yourself.