VR score more important than Writing Sample score?

[ToujoursMieux]

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[1956Goldtop]

From my understanding, it is true that writing scores are generally ignored unless you do very poorly in it (J)

 

[BioMedPS]

VR score is really important so they're not going to overlook a low VR in favor of a high writing score.

 

[scowdeva]

Yeah, US schools don't really care what your writing score is. They do, however, care what your verbal score is. If you plan on applying to US MD programs, you probably will want to retake the MCAT and really work on improving your verbal score. While that low of a verbal can be overcome, it would take fantastic grades and other great attributes to even begin to make up for it. Ideally, you want all sections to be double digits, but I know most advisors will recommend that you retake if any section is below an 8, as that's really the lowest in any section that US schools would accept. Good luck!

 

[87138]

Could medical schools possibly overlook the low verbal score because of the high writing sample score?

Not likely. The Writing Section is essentially a test of whether or not you can follow directions. That's about it.

 

[carwreck]

Your verbal score is perhaps most important as it has been shown to be the best predictor of success on the USMLE Step 1. If you make above x score (can't remember what it is) on verbal, there's a 90% probability that you will pass Step 1. Of course, just passing step 1 isn't necessary success, but take it for what it is. Either way, I would recommend working on that verbal score as a good writing score won't make up for it.

 

[taponthecloud]

I'm wondering what you all think. I got a pretty bad score in my VR section on the MCAT (VR score of 6), but a score of S on the Writing Sample. The rest of the scores were: BS 9, PS 10, VR 6 = 25 S.

Could medical schools possibly overlook the low verbal score because of the high writing sample score? I've heard U.S. schools don't give much importance to the WS score.

is this a serious question? of course the VR score is more important... it contributes to your composite numerical score. how can you possibly add an "S" to the 9 you got in BS and 10 you got in PS?

 

[fisko82]

Your verbal score is perhaps most important as it has been shown to be the best predictor of success on the USMLE Step 1. If you make above x score (can't remember what it is) on verbal, there's a 90% probability that you will pass Step 1.

Do you have a link to that study? I've always heard about the verbal one talked about on sdn, but have never seen it. The only one I've seen is linked at wiki, stating:

The Biological Sciences section most directly correlates to success on the USMLE Step 1 exam, with a correlation coefficient of .553 vs .491 for Physical Sciences and .397 for Verbal Reasoning. [5] Predictably, MCAT composite scores also correlate with USMLE Step 1 success.[6]

​

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Your verbal score is perhaps most important as it has been shown to be the best predictor of success on the USMLE Step 1. If you make above x score (can't remember what it is) on verbal, there's a 90% probability that you will pass Step 1. Of course, just passing step 1 isn't necessary success, but take it for what it is. Either way, I would recommend working on that verbal score as a good writing score won't make up for it.

Disagree. Cite your sources.

 

[45408]

Yes, VR is more important than WS, by a wide margin.

 

[DrVln]

I scored 12 on Verbal and M on the Writing Sample (go figure), and I don't think it's been a problem.

 

[Handy388]

Am I the only one wo sees that S is an insanely high score for WR? I mean, score goes from J-T, S is ONE letter below T, it just doesn't make sense, coupled with a 6 on verbal. Is English your second language?

 

[87138]

Am I the only one wo sees that S is an insanely high score for WR? I mean, score goes from J-T, S is ONE letter below T, it just doesn't make sense, coupled with a 6 on verbal. Is English your second language?

Have you ever taken the MCAT? The Writing Sample is nothing more than an exercise in following directions. You can score a T on the WS and still not be able to VR your way out of a paper bag.

 

[Handy388]

Have you ever taken the MCAT? The Writing Sample is nothing more than an exercise in following directions. You can score a T on the WS and still not be able to VR your way out of a paper bag.

Yes, I have, I have gotten a 37 on it. I don't know who told you about this "exercise in following direction" notion. In my experience VR and WR correlate pretty well.

 

[taponthecloud]

Yes, I have, I have gotten a 37 on it. I don't know who told you about this "exercise in following direction" notion. In my experience VR and WR correlate pretty well.

Muppet..

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Yes, I have, I have gotten a 37 on it. I don't know who told you about this "exercise in following direction" notion. In my experience VR and WR correlate pretty well.

Disagree.

 

[87138]

I don't know who told you about this "exercise in following direction" notion.

The people who designed the MCAT. Read the scoring guidelines.

 

[eagle34]

I scored an 8 on verbal and S on the writing, but english is my second language. I was only asked about my low VR during one interview, but that interview did end up telling me in the end that he thinks I made up for the low score with a high writing score.

 

[taponthecloud]

I scored an 8 on verbal and S on the writing, but english is my second language. I was only asked about my low VR during one interview, but that interview did end up telling me in the end that he thinks I made up for the low score with a high writing score.

that means nothing. your argument has an n of 1.

 

[littlealex]

I wouldn't apply with less than an 8 in any section. Having a 6 in verbal is by most accounts unacceptable. There are a few exceptions but it is rare.

 

[eagle34]

that means nothing. your argument has an n of 1.

I'm not arguing here that they are equally important, I'm just saying what was told to me at yes, ONE (n=1, thanks) med school. No matter what, I still got into plenty of schools with my low verbal score.

 

[MossPoh]

Disagree. Cite your sources.

This has been discussed several times. In an older thread from last year they cited RELATIONSHIPS OF READING, MCAT, AND USMLE STEP 1 TEST RESULTS FOR MEDICAL STUDENTS by PATRICIA A. HAUGHT and RICHARD T. WALLS (2004)

The aamc journal does have some other articles. I can't directly access them it seems. (Not going to pay 35 dollars)
Academic Medicine. 80(10):910-917, October 2005.
Julian, Ellen R. PhD seems to state that there is a direct correlation between all mcat scores and usmle, while there is a correlation between undergraduate gpa and med school course grades.

It really isn't that unfathomable that people who read, retain information, and can extract information from the reading tend to do better. Reading is a pretty important skill.

And to answer what everyone else already said, yes it is more important. The WS is sometimes viewed as the "tiebreaker" between identical candidates. Really need to work on the VR score. It is just a practice thing. I tend to do 3 passages a day and try to figure the best way for ME to approach the stuff. You can almost always get rid of 2 answers right off the bat. It is a hard score to bring up, at least for me. I pretty much consistently get 11-12 on every practice test, with one 15 thrown in to make me feel good about myself.

 

[coldweatherblue]

Yes, I have, I have gotten a 37 on it. I don't know who told you about this "exercise in following direction" notion. In my experience VR and WR correlate pretty well.

My experience is the same. I scored ~1.5 standard deviations above the mean on all sections of the MCAT, including VR and WS.

 

[taponthecloud]

I'm not arguing here that they are equally important, I'm just saying what was told to me at yes, ONE (n=1, thanks) med school. No matter what, I still got into plenty of schools with my low verbal score.

the problem is not that you were arguing WS and VR were equal, but that you were implying that it's okay to do poorly on VR (~8) as long as your WS score is great. that's just nonsense.

it's great that you got into "plenty of schools;" but that simply speaks highly of your ability to get in despite your low verbal scores...it however doesn't speak highly of the standards at the schools that accepted you.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

This has been discussed several times. In an older thread from last year they cited RELATIONSHIPS OF READING, MCAT, AND USMLE STEP 1 TEST RESULTS FOR MEDICAL STUDENTS by PATRICIA A. HAUGHT and RICHARD T. WALLS (2004)

The aamc journal does have some other articles. I can't directly access them it seems. (Not going to pay 35 dollars)
Academic Medicine. 80(10):910-917, October 2005.
Julian, Ellen R. PhD seems to state that there is a direct correlation between all mcat scores and usmle, while there is a correlation between undergraduate gpa and med school course grades.

It really isn't that unfathomable that people who read, retain information, and can extract information from the reading tend to do better. Reading is a pretty important skill.

And to answer what everyone else already said, yes it is more important. The WS is sometimes viewed as the "tiebreaker" between identical candidates. Really need to work on the VR score. It is just a practice thing. I tend to do 3 passages a day and try to figure the best way for ME to approach the stuff. You can almost always get rid of 2 answers right off the bat. It is a hard score to bring up, at least for me. I pretty much consistently get 11-12 on every practice test, with one 15 thrown in to make me feel good about myself.

EDIT: See my post below

 

[flaahless]

This has been discussed several times. In an older thread from last year they cited RELATIONSHIPS OF READING, MCAT, AND USMLE STEP 1 TEST RESULTS FOR MEDICAL STUDENTS by PATRICIA A. HAUGHT and RICHARD T. WALLS (2004)

The aamc journal does have some other articles. I can't directly access them it seems. (Not going to pay 35 dollars)
Academic Medicine. 80(10):910-917, October 2005.
Julian, Ellen R. PhD seems to state that there is a direct correlation between all mcat scores and usmle, while there is a correlation between undergraduate gpa and med school course grades.

It really isn't that unfathomable that people who read, retain information, and can extract information from the reading tend to do better. Reading is a pretty important skill.

And to answer what everyone else already said, yes it is more important. The WS is sometimes viewed as the "tiebreaker" between identical candidates. Really need to work on the VR score. It is just a practice thing. I tend to do 3 passages a day and try to figure the best way for ME to approach the stuff. You can almost always get rid of 2 answers right off the bat. It is a hard score to bring up, at least for me. I pretty much consistently get 11-12 on every practice test, with one 15 thrown in to make me feel good about myself.

But the VR section doesn't test how well one can read or reading comprehension, a lot of is just strategy and time management.

Anyways, OP. From my experiences interviewing, if you have a well-written PS and secondary essays, schools will take your writing score into consideration. However, the 6 VR doesn't look good, and you will have difficulty making it passed the first step.

 

[BigRedder]

Here is a more recent abstract:

[SIZE=+1]Impact of preadmission variables on USMLE step 1 and step 2 performance.[/SIZE]

Kleshinski J, Khuder SA, Shapiro JI, Gold JP.

Department of Medicine, The University of Toledo College of Medicine, Health Science Campus, Mail Stop 1186, 3000 Arlington Avenue, Toledo, OH, 43614-2598, USA, [email protected].

Purpose To examine the predictive ability of preadmission variables on United States Medical Licensing Examinations (USMLE) step 1 and step 2 performance, incorporating the use of a neural network model. Method Preadmission data were collected on matriculants from 1998 to 2004. Linear regression analysis was first used to identify predictors of performance on step 1 and step 2. A generalized regression neural network (GRNN) as well as a feed forward neural network (FFNN) was then developed in an effort to more accurately predict step 1 and step 2 scores from these preadmission data. Results Statistically significant predictors for step 1 and step 2 included science grade point average (SGPA), the biologic science (BS) section of the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT), college selectivity, race, and age of the applicant. Neural networks were found to predict a significant portion of the variance, and the FFNN demonstrated some superiority over that obtained with linear regression models as well as the GRNN. Conclusions The results have implications that could impact the selection of applicants to medical school and the neural networks that we developed could be used in a prospective manner.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

From: Adult Learners: Relationships of Reading, MCAT, and USMLE Step 1 Test Results for Medical Students.
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/content_storage_01/0000019b/80/1a/0e/28.pdf

"To examine whether MCAT scores were related to performance on the USMLE STEP 1 exam score, Pearson Product-Moment Correlations were computed on the MCAT verbal reasoning, MCAT physical sciences, and MCAT biological sciences scores and the USMLE Step 1 score. The USMLE Step 1 score was positively correlated with all parts of the MCAT. The Usmle score was positively correlated with (a) the MCAT verbal reasoning score (r=.18), (b) the MCAT physcal sciences score (r=.31), and with the MCAT biological sciences score (r=.34)."

 

[eagle34]

the problem is not that you were arguing WS and VR were equal, but that you were implying that it's okay to do poorly on VR (~8) as long as your WS score is great. that's just nonsense.

it's great that you got into "plenty of schools;" but that simply speaks highly of your ability to get in despite your low verbal scores...it however doesn't speak highly of the standards at the schools that accepted you.

I never said or implied that doing poorly on VR is ok as long as your WS is great. I actually studied my butt off for the MCAT but did poorly in one section. As to the standards of the schools that accepted me, is the VR the score that determines the standard of the school? Maybe I had a pretty good GPA and ECs and LORs? Maybe I interview well? So does that mean that if I got a lot VR score and a school accepted me, it's not a good med school? That's pretty good reasoning.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Verbal reasoning is about the weakest numerical section of the MCAT for prediction of performance on the USMLE step 1. I don't know why people insist on repeating the kraplan proliferated myth of VR being the most important for step I (probably because they have a high VR score) but multiple peer reviewed publications have demonstrated otherwise.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Here is a more recent abstract:

This also supports Biological Sciences as the best predictor of the MCAT sections. I've taken both the MCAT and USMLE step 1 and i guarantee you step 1 is a lot more like the Bio Sci section than any other.

 

[taponthecloud]

I never said or implied that doing poorly on VR is ok as long as your WS is great. I actually studied my butt off for the MCAT but did poorly in one section. As to the standards of the schools that accepted me, is the VR the score that determines the standard of the school? Maybe I had a pretty good GPA and ECs and LORs? Maybe I interview well? So does that mean that if I got a lot VR score and a school accepted me, it's not a good med school? That's pretty good reasoning.

yes. it's likely.

 

[eagle34]

yes. it's likely.

oh ok. well, since VR matters so much to a good med school, maybe I should give admissions a call and tell them that they made a mistake in accepting me because there's no way a good school can accept someone with an 8 on VR.

 

[taponthecloud]

oh ok. well, since VR matters so much to a good med school, maybe I should give admissions a call and tell them that they made a mistake in accepting me because there's no way a good school can accept someone with an 8 on VR.

no i didn't mean in all cases (sorry to imply that)... i was strictly saying it's very likely in your case.

 

[iA-MD2013]

Does the WS matter much at all? I'm not planning on putting any effort into it at all...Is anything above an O good enough?

 

[eagle34]

no i didn't mean in all cases (sorry to imply that)... i was strictly saying it's very likely in your case.

ohhh my case? I get it now. Yeah, I guess these schools made a mistake of accepting me...and I guess all my hard work went to waste, seeing how VR was really the only weak part of my application.

 

[87138]

Does the WS matter much at all? I'm not planning on putting any effort into it at all...Is anything above an O good enough?

Two days before I took the MCAT I opened the big Kaplan book (I hadn't really used it at all for my MCAT prep, just the EK books) and read what they said and attempted to try their sample. I got bored and quit halfway into it.

I did well on the WS on the real thing. But I write fairly well in general I guess, and I followed their directions pretty well.

 

[taponthecloud]

ohhh my case? I get it now. Yeah, I guess these schools made a mistake of accepting me...and I guess all my hard work went to waste, seeing how VR was really the only weak part of my application.

not necessarily a "mistake"...i never said anything to that extent. just saying their standards are probably not that high and it obviously reflects upon the type of people they accept (ie. you).

 

[eagle34]

not necessarily a "mistake"...i never said anything to that extent. just saying their standards are probably not that high and it obviously reflects upon the type of people they accept (ie. you).

How do you know what type of person I am? From a post that said that I didn't do well on VR but did well on WS and got into med schools? What ca you say about my type of personality from that post?

 

[taponthecloud]

How do you know what type of person I am? From a post that said that I didn't do well on VR but did well on WS and got into med schools? What ca you say about my type of personality from that post?

all i can tell is that you are a defensive a-hole with a really low verbal score.

 

[eagle34]

all i can tell is that you are a defensive a-hole with a really low verbal score.

not even worth a reply. good luck at your high-standard med school.

 

[taponthecloud]

not even worth a reply. good luck at your high-standard med school.

thanks.

 

[CPmustangs]

I have heard that the VR score is more important than the WS, I got a L on the writing and a 10 on the VR. At my interviews they ask me because they are interested in how that could happen, but then they all said they do not care about the writing sample they only care about the Verbal.

 

[littlealex]

all i can tell is that you are a defensive a-hole with a really low verbal score.

I totally agree with the defensive and low verbal part, the a-hole part is unsure but possible.

 

[Leiflet]

Hmm... high quality stuff up in here.

To change the tack a bit, I am curious jut how far of a split between VR and WS people have seen. As We can't compare apples to quince we could use percentiles. I admit I am just curious because I pulled 99.9th in VR and 50th in WS.... and I was a philosophy major. I guess that $100K liberal arts degree was worth it!

 

[Picklesali]

Hmm... high quality stuff up in here.

To change the tack a bit, I am curious jut how far of a split between VR and WS people have seen. As We can't compare apples to quince we could use percentiles. I admit I am just curious because I pulled 99.9th in VR and 50th in WS.... and I was a philosophy major. I guess that $100K liberal arts degree was worth it!

<-- Got a 14Vr and an M in WS**

but I'm a kicka** writer and had awesome essays to prove it (substantiated during my interviews)... I have NO IDEA what happened on my WS


**oh just looked at your MDApps. So did you!! We're twins. Let me see if I can find my percentiles

 

[Picklesali]

ooooh, ouch!

Took on May 31 2007
14 vr = 99.9%
M WS = 9.8-25.5%

I win!

 

[iA-MD2013]

ooooh, ouch!

Took on May 31 2007
14 vr = 99.9%
M WS = 9.8-25.5%

I win!

That proves that they are completely unrelated! Nice VR score...that's wonderful!
Did the M cause any problems?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Me:

VR: 12 94.7-98.1
WS: L 3.6-10.9

 

[45408]

not even worth a reply. good luck at your high-standard med school.

But you did reply.