walmart and 1800contacts...

[drmhyde]

wow...I've been able to decently defend my decision on practicing in a walmart for the last 3 years...but this one just leaves me dumbfounded. Is this the great whoreing of our profession or a good business move and good for our patients? I for one don't suffer from memory loss and know what kind of company they are and the tactiics they used. Interested in your thoughts. I'm sure this one will light up the board.

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[SarahNC]

What I hate about 1800Contacts is the way they verify prescriptions. They don't really care if its expired or wrong as long as they get their money. They have an automated message call the office, usually when you are super busy, you can't pause it, have it call you back, or replay it. It talks about 100 miles a minute and is impossible to understand. And if you don't verify it within a certain amount of hours, they go ahead and fill it anyway. Just my 2 cents.

 

[KHE]

wow...I've been able to decently defend my decision on practicing in a walmart for the last 3 years...but this one just leaves me dumbfounded. Is this the great whoreing of our profession or a good business move and good for our patients? I for one don't suffer from memory loss and know what kind of company they are and the tactiics they used. Interested in your thoughts. I'm sure this one will light up the board.

1-800contacts has already tried a similar arrangement with Cole Vision and Luxottica and it failed. Now they have moved on to Walmart where it will almost certainly fail again. Fact is, while there is a certain segment of the population who doesn't mind getting their health care any place, there is a significant number of people who would prefer to NOT get their health care in JCPenney, Sears, or Walmart even if it means they save $9.00 on their years supply of Acuvues.

 

[drmhyde]

1-800contacts has already tried a similar arrangement with Cole Vision and Luxottica and it failed. Now they have moved on to Walmart where it will almost certainly fail again. Fact is, while there is a certain segment of the population who doesn't mind getting their health care any place, there is a significant number of people who would prefer to NOT get their health care in JCPenney, Sears, or Walmart even if it means they save $9.00 on their years supply of Acuvues.

I didn't know that...what was the reason it failed?

 

[KHE]

I didn't know that...what was the reason it failed?

Because when patients phoned and tried to order contact lenses with expired prescriptions, they were offered an appointment with a cole vision doctor by the 1800 phone person. These were doctors who were almost universally associated with Sears, JCPenney, Target, and other assorted commercial establishments and most people would rather not get their health care in the same place they get their bed sheets and food processors. There is a percentage of the population who will, but most would prefer to not so many*people just returned to their original doctor. There's no reason to think that this particular endeavor will end up any different....in fact...I would bet $50 that it fails faster.

 

[Senorwes1]

Supposedly, there are going to be better procedures for Rx verification like being able to talk to a person, via fax, etc. Of course, only time will tell. Personally, it really doesn't matter where a pt. gets his/her contacts because we don't make any money off contacts anyway. Patients will realize that after shipping and handling they really aren't saving any money. Plus, there are always those people that wait until they have no more contacts to order and they will have to come in to buy them. I don't see this being a big factor in terms of dollars lost.

 

[rodomon]

I agree that the automated phone message is pretty much impossible to deal with. I think any companies filling contact prescriptions should be required to use faxes instead, which many other companies did use.

For one, it's something the staff can actually deal with when there is a slow period, rather than being forced to listen to a recording when there are three other lines ringing and patients waiting. I think you had to verify most faxed verifications within about 6 business hours or so, which was reasonable.

Also, it's nice to have written documentation of the request and your response. Not just legally, but if it's in the chart the next time the patient comes in, the doctor could take a little more time to explain the benefits of ordering contacts from the office.

Plus, when we had time to deal with it, we could call the patient and explain the situation to them if we had to cancel the order. I think they appreciated that more than just being rejected by the company they ordered it from. We would politely mention why we had to deny the request and more often than not we could get them to schedule their annual appointment.

I always felt sorry for the people who had to read those messages. I'd go nuts doing that job for an hour, let alone all day long.

 

[Eyedoc1999]

Having been to 1800 headquarters and seen their operation in person and met with their upper level mgmt (as well as practicing at WM) I may have some perspective to share. I have no financial interest in 1800 nor am I in a mgmt capacity with WM, so don't take my comments as defending anyone.

The first thing is that I have been wrapped in the AOA rhetoric about 1800 for years so I had a very negative attitude when I went, but I was surprised by their efforts to verify. For example, their incredibly annoying recorded messages are actually initiated by a human and the recording doesn't start until someone actually answers the phone. The message itself contains 6 points that have to be made by someone verifying by phone. Annoying, but not their fault. They have actually cancelled 1.2 million rxs in the last 5 years due to verification (thats around $120M in revenue). The issues that all of us have with the verification process is not with 1800 is with the FCLCA (which is a garbage law and should be destroyed or at least completely revamped). All retailers follow the same procedures, it's because 1800 is the largest that they are the lightning rod for negative comments. At the expiration of a rx, they personally call and e-mail the patients to let them know it's time for an examination and even get their doctors on the phone to make appointments if the patients wish.

The purpose of the alliance was to combine the buying capacity of WM with the distribution capacity of 1800. With any luck, this increase in convenience will make patients more able to be compliant....we'll see.

 

[IndianaOD]

Its a complete crap shoot.

If 1800 gets an expired Rx they will now undoubtedly refer the patients to walmart for an exam.

Anyone who cares about private practice optometry as a current or future career has yet another reason to dislike 1800 and wally world.

When will ODs stop empowering these people by working for them?

 

[Eyedoc1999]

Its a complete crap shoot.

If 1800 gets an expired Rx they will now undoubtedly refer the patients to walmart for an exam.

Anyone who cares about private practice optometry as a current or future career has yet another reason to dislike 1800 and wally world.

When will ODs stop empowering these people by working for them?

Not to play Devil's Advocate, but it will probably be when it stops paying so well.

BTW, ODs had very little involvement in this decision so I didn't really empower them to do anything. In fact, all but 8 ODs in the system got the information about the "alliance" when you did...at the public address. As far as working "for" them, that's debatable but I can assure you that this would have happened regardless of whether or not ODs were in the picture. Probably would be more apt to happen because there would be no consideration other than pure profit.

 

[Habitual Rx]

When will ODs stop empowering these people by working for them?

It's really the solution to all the problems corporate optometry has.

If most ODs could just see the long term benefits of not supporting these companies, being an optometrist would be even higher on the career "hierarchy".

 

[Ben Chudner]

Personally, it really doesn't matter where a pt. gets his/her contacts because we don't make any money off contacts anyway.

I love when I hear this. If you are not making money off contact lens materials, you are doing something wrong. If you don't believe me, let's work out a way for your patients to buy their materials from me so you don't have to worry about it anymore.😉

 

[Ben Chudner]

They have actually cancelled 1.2 million rxs in the last 5 years due to verification (thats around $120M in revenue).

Straight from Mike Cohen's mouth. All this number points out is that there are many patients out there trying to fill invalid Rxs. For all we know, 1800's verification process is only 50% accurate. That could mean that 1.2 million invalid Rxs were filled also. I would be willing to give up 120M in revenue if it meant that I would still generate another 120M from sales that I should not really have access to. That is if I was unethical of course. I am not saying this is the case, but I just wanted to point out that it makes no difference how many invalid Rxs they turn away, only how many invalid Rxs they fill.

 

[KHE]

Having been to 1800 headquarters and seen their operation in person and met with their upper level mgmt (as well as practicing at WM) I may have some perspective to share. I have no financial interest in 1800 nor am I in a mgmt capacity with WM, so don't take my comments as defending anyone.

The first thing is that I have been wrapped in the AOA rhetoric about 1800 for years so I had a very negative attitude when I went, but I was surprised by their efforts to verify. For example, their incredibly annoying recorded messages are actually initiated by a human and the recording doesn't start until someone actually answers the phone. The message itself contains 6 points that have to be made by someone verifying by phone. Annoying, but not their fault. They have actually cancelled 1.2 million rxs in the last 5 years due to verification (thats around $120M in revenue). The issues that all of us have with the verification process is not with 1800 is with the FCLCA (which is a garbage law and should be destroyed or at least completely revamped). All retailers follow the same procedures, it's because 1800 is the largest that they are the lightning rod for negative comments. At the expiration of a rx, they personally call and e-mail the patients to let them know it's time for an examination and even get their doctors on the phone to make appointments if the patients wish.

The purpose of the alliance was to combine the buying capacity of WM with the distribution capacity of 1800. With any luck, this increase in convenience will make patients more able to be compliant....we'll see.

I respectfully disagree.

1-800Contacts verification phone system is designed to be as cumbersome and difficult as possible for those who are expected to use it. The goal of this is to frustrate doctors offices to the point that they just say "screw it" and hang up, thereby allowing the prescription to be "passively" verified, and the order being placed.

Every time the machine calls, there is an option given to press 1 to bypass the message at the next call. No matter how many times you press 1, you have to listen to the greeting every time. Of course, it is designed to withold the actual patient and Rx information right up until the bitter end, forcing your staff to listen to a 3 minute message needlessly.

The fax back number and contact person for the always mysterious "Brad Scott" changes with the winds. Mr. Scott is more elusive than Osama Bin Laden. Most of the time, you have to phone up the regular customer 1-800 number to get the correct fax back number for verification purposes. There is absoutely no reason why a verification fax number should change as frequently as theirs does. Again...the only logical conclusion would be that this system has been designed to maximize the hassle factor to those who are expected to use it, thereby increasing the chances of a "passive" verification.

 

[Eyedoc1999]

I respectfully disagree.

1-800Contacts verification phone system is designed to be as cumbersome and difficult as possible for those who are expected to use it. The goal of this is to frustrate doctors offices to the point that they just say "screw it" and hang up, thereby allowing the prescription to be "passively" verified, and the order being placed.

Every time the machine calls, there is an option given to press 1 to bypass the message at the next call. No matter how many times you press 1, you have to listen to the greeting every time. Of course, it is designed to withold the actual patient and Rx information right up until the bitter end, forcing your staff to listen to a 3 minute message needlessly.

The fax back number and contact person for the always mysterious "Brad Scott" changes with the winds. Mr. Scott is more elusive than Osama Bin Laden. Most of the time, you have to phone up the regular customer 1-800 number to get the correct fax back number for verification purposes. There is absoutely no reason why a verification fax number should change as frequently as theirs does. Again...the only logical conclusion would be that this system has been designed to maximize the hassle factor to those who are expected to use it, thereby increasing the chances of a "passive" verification.

Again, not defending them...just playing devil's advocate. Those messages have certain information that has to be conveyed in order to be compliant with trade laws so of course it's played at the beginning. How many times are you told by customer care reps of every kind up front "this call may be recorded for quality assurance"?

BTW, I've met Brad Scott...he is an actual real guy.

As for Ben's assertion that 1800s verification system "could be" 50% accurate why stop there? Since we're making up numbers, we should make up 15%. That would piss us off a lot more.

 

[Ben Chudner]

As for Ben's assertion that 1800s verification system "could be" 50% accurate why stop there? Since we're making up numbers, we should make up 15%. That would piss us off a lot more.

We don't need to make up 15% because that was not my point. I will say it again so that I am clear about this. I have no idea how accurate 1800's verification process is. Neither do they as there is no data on how many passive verifications were actually valid Rx's. They can say they denied 1 billion invalid Rxs this month and I will still say that means less to me than the number of invalid Rxs they did not deny. That is my point, so don't get hung up on my example as it was only meant to illustrate.

 

[Senorwes1]

I agree with most everybody in that the 1-800 verification process is faulty. I think that is the problem that most people have with the whole thing. I wish they would just fax or email the verifications. It would make it a lot easier to verify. Would that make everybody happier?

 

[Eyedoc1999]

I agree with most everybody in that the 1-800 verification process is faulty. I think that is the problem that most people have with the whole thing. I wish they would just fax or email the verifications. It would make it a lot easier to verify. Would that make everybody happier?

No. The only thing that would make these guys happy is that if there was no other way to purchase optical goods other than them.

 

[Eyedoc1999]

We don't need to make up 15% because that was not my point. I will say it again so that I am clear about this. I have no idea how accurate 1800's verification process is. Neither do they as there is no data on how many passive verifications were actually valid Rx's. They can say they denied 1 billion invalid Rxs this month and I will still say that means less to me than the number of invalid Rxs they did not deny. That is my point, so don't get hung up on my example as it was only meant to illustrate.

Again, that's a problem with the law. The FCLCA is a terrible law that allows terrible things to happen. The problem is that you can't blame the company for being compliant with the law. Again, just being devil's advocate and getting a plug in for how worthless I think the FCLCA is.

 

[Ben Chudner]

No. The only thing that would make these guys happy is that if there was no other way to purchase optical goods other than them.

This from the private practice expert 🙄

 

[Ben Chudner]

Again, that's a problem with the law. The FCLCA is a terrible law that allows terrible things to happen. The problem is that you can't blame the company for being compliant with the law. Again, just being devil's advocate and getting a plug in for how worthless I think the FCLCA is.

Dr. Nelson, let's see how many times you can miss my point. You are getting close to the record, which I believe you already hold. I am not talking about the law. We agree that the law is bad. I am not blaming the company for following the law. To be fair, I don't really know if they are or if they are not. I don't have any examples of patients that got lenses when they shouldn't have but that doesn't prove anything either way. What I am saying is that 1800 can boast all they want about how many Rx's they turned away. That number is great for their PR, but it is meaningless to me. The only number I care about is how many patients did get an invalid Rx filled. This is a number that we will never see because 1800 doesn't want to calculate it. We already had laws that made it illegal to fill an invalid Rx. 1800 and others chose to ignore those laws. Just because the new law gives them a legal loophole to continue their illegal behavior does not shift the blame from 1800. You can play devil's advocate all you want, but please don't use the FCLCA as the scapegoat for all of the illegal internet CL sales that still occur.

 

[drmhyde]

my other problem with this "allience" is when I state my distain for them I get emailed by a "handeler" optometrist in the orginization as to why 1800 is so great etc. I wonder how much they get paid for that? Maybe they should fly all the walmart docs down to 1800 headquarters to be wined and dined as well. It's almost as scarey as wandering into a scientology branch office...people don't leave the same. The only reason this is a good allience is because Walmart intends to make a lot of money off of it period. The patinet care thing is BS.

 

[Eyedoc1999]

This from the private practice expert 🙄

Been there, done that. 😉

 

[Eyedoc1999]

Dr. Nelson, let's see how many times you can miss my point. You are getting close to the record, which I believe you already hold. I am not talking about the law. We agree that the law is bad. I am not blaming the company for following the law. To be fair, I don't really know if they are or if they are not. I don't have any examples of patients that got lenses when they shouldn't have but that doesn't prove anything either way. What I am saying is that 1800 can boast all they want about how many Rx's they turned away. That number is great for their PR, but it is meaningless to me. The only number I care about is how many patients did get an invalid Rx filled. This is a number that we will never see because 1800 doesn't want to calculate it. We already had laws that made it illegal to fill an invalid Rx. 1800 and others chose to ignore those laws. Just because the new law gives them a legal loophole to continue their illegal behavior does not shift the blame from 1800. You can play devil's advocate all you want, but please don't use the FCLCA as the scapegoat for all of the illegal internet CL sales that still occur.

I appreciate the sarcasm, it's refreshing. I'm not defending any company, but do you have another system that might work better? Are you under the impression that I think it's great that my patients get their rx filled w/o being seen? It pisses me off as much as you (apparently you don't know that I make money by performing exams OR that my liability is tied to patients under my care). I just think that people should focus on the real enemy and that's the law that facilitates these rxs being filled.

 

[Eyedoc1999]

my other problem with this "allience" is when I state my distain for them I get emailed by a "handeler" optometrist in the orginization as to why 1800 is so great etc. I wonder how much they get paid for that? Maybe they should fly all the walmart docs down to 1800 headquarters to be wined and dined as well. It's almost as scarey as wandering into a scientology branch office...people don't leave the same. The only reason this is a good allience is because Walmart intends to make a lot of money off of it period. The patinet care thing is BS.

I will admit, it's an impressive set up.