WAMC - Dual Non-Trad.

[WSChurchill]

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Hello all,

I was hoping to receive some feedback on my chances of getting into med school given my current situation and my intended path to get there. I've read a lot of SDN forums in the past 24 hours (recently found out about this treasure) but no post seems to cover the route for sub-3.0 AND non-science (queue flaming and linking to posts now), possibly because no one's been brave, er dumb*, enough to do it. If my plan does not seem like the best possible route, please advise me otherwise.

Background:
-May 2017 B.S. in Finance-related curriculum with an Econ minor (woowee 😎) from a large state school
-cGPA: 2.86 (125 credits)
-sGPA: 2.17 (consists of a 4 credit B- in intro bio, and 8 credits of C maths)
-1 year of volunteer experience in ER
-Internships in business-related positions

My plan:
I seem to be non-traditional in two ways - my GPA and my major. Post-bacc seemed to be the most logical next-step given that it will allow me to knock out the pre-reqs and raise my GPA. So up until a couple of days ago, when I stumbled upon SDN, I was sure that I would:
-Apply to post-baccs this cycle, and cross fingers that "3.0 minimum" really means "<3.0 discouraged"
-Volunteer at a local ER in the ~9 months before post-bacc
-Land a job as a medical scribe (ideally) or anything that will get me more exposure to medical settings/responsibilities pre- post-bacc. enrollment (would love to hear suggestions on what other jobs might give me this exposure and also be feasible to attain)
-Continue to work part-time as a math tutor and study MCAT on my own time to prepare for the test itself and future post-bacc classes
-Ace post-bacc, ultimately upping my c/s GPA's; ace the MCAT and apply to MD programs! Easy as pie..

This is all fine and dandy and I understand that there are many contingencies I'm riding on here. What I want to know is the following - Is my previous assumption of MD schools being lenient toward an applicant who has shown a positive trend of recent success in classes (over the course of probably ~1.5 years), and specifically science classes, founded on glitter and rainbows? After reading some stories on SDN, it seems it doesn't matter how successful you've been/how long ago you made those mistakes, and the UG cGPA is all that matters at the end of the day (along with MCAT, essays, EC's etc. of course). If I took 39 credits at post-bacc (all of the pre-reqs plus Psych and Biochem, 3 and 4 credits respectively) and got an A in each of them, my new cGPA and sGPA would be a 3.13 and 3.48, both of which seem to be out of range even for the weakest of US allo. programs.

Assuming post-bacc and a top percentile MCAT score wouldn't be enough, what would you suggest I do (besides give up)? I heard about SMPs, and I'm now considering taking the pre-reqs at my local community college to save money before applying to a SMP, but then again I don't know how unfavorable CC classes are to adcoms.

Sorry for the wall of text and thanks to anyone who has made it this far. This was a lot more unwieldy than I hoped for it to have been 😕 Thanks in advance for the advice!

 

[esob]

1st, no major is really non-traditional, so you are just singularly non-traditional. 2nd, assuming that you will get straight A's is a bad assumption to make if you haven't done it in the past. The reality is you will probably hit some speed bumps along the way. At this point I would say your best bet is to consider D.O. programs. If you are not willing to embrace the idea of being a D.O., then your chances of becoming a doctor are not favorable.

 

[tryptamine]

Econ major in interview cycle. 4/4 interviewers have busted balls about economics. "Wat" And working in an unrelated field for a long time. "Wat"

Wow, that's insane. I've come to see econ as one of the most valuable degrees for equipping people to break down and tackle real world problems. Probably about half of the analysts I hired in my last job were econ majors because of their training and willingness to deal quantitatively with messy systems. Just goes to reinforce the image of how incredibly insular the medical community is and how much it needs more people who have spent time working in an "unrelated" field.

 

[WSChurchill]

@esob Thanks for your response. I understand it is unsafe to assume I'll now get straight A's, but I have been proactively taking steps to increase the likelihood of this. Regardless, it doesn't seem I have any other choice but to just about ace the pre-reqs if I want to do DO or MD. In regards to DO programs, I haven't ruled them out, and even in the best-case scenario that some reputable SDN member told me I had chances of getting into MD programs if I took path X, I would be sure to apply to a handful of DO programs as well. I just don't want to rule out MD programs without fully understanding the admissions process/decision-making. With that said, are you of the belief that there is no hope for anyone with less than let's say a 3.5 cGPA of getting into a MD program, even if they had been getting A's in all of their recent science coursework for roughly 5-6 semesters? I've been looking at MSAR and the median GPA metric, but I don't know what to think since it's an not an average.. A median GPA of 3.68 technically leaves room for someone with a 3.2 although I'm sure the median represents a number close to the average accepted student. I just want to know if they save room for outliers such as myself given a proven change of mentality and focus, or they don't care about anything but the c/s GPA stat at the end of the day.

 

[WSChurchill]

@Tiger Tank I'm sorry to hear about the reception interviewers are giving your non-traditional background. I have to say, I'm equally as surprised as tryptamine because Econ is founded on the ability to quantitatively analyze the world around us, and if I'm not mistaken, analysis or the ability to problem-solve is a sought-after trait of aspiring physicians. Could it be possible that they're scoffing at you to see how you justify your decision to pursue medicine, or how you face disapproval in general?

 

[tryptamine]

The larger issue is that they didn't like me.

Ah, yeah-- that sucks. In that case, it's a shame they went about communicating that by attacking your totally defensible choices rather than being direct about it and giving you a chance to speak to whatever was actually bothering them. Good luck with the remaining. From someone whose UG stats make most schools a far stretch, solid work on your success in securing interviews this cycle.

 

[tryptamine]

OP, I'm not especially knowledgeable by the standard of this forum, and I've not gone through a cycle yet, but I'm in a similar restrained comeback situation where there's no chance of my attaining a traditionally competitive GPA. You're starting lower than I did, but your sGPA is enviably repairable by comparison. The main advice I can give 1 year, an MCAT, and a handful of As into this trip is to start slowly, don't ramp up or commit yourself until you're sure you can handle it, and NEVER, ever succumb to sunk cost fallacy. Keep in touch with how you're feeling about the journey, and if taking science courses and increasing your health care exposure is giving you energy and strengthening your resolve, by all means, keep it up. If not, pull the cord. You're quite possibly making a crappy financial decision by choosing medicine, especially at this point, and ejecting any time between now and M-1 will always be the better call than soldiering through based on time and resources committed.

 

[WSChurchill]

OP, I'm not especially knowledgeable by the standard of this forum, and I've not gone through a cycle yet, but I'm in a similar restrained comeback situation where there's no chance of my attaining a traditionally competitive GPA. You're starting lower than I did, but your sGPA is enviably repairable by comparison. The main advice I can give 1 year, an MCAT, and a handful of As into this trip is to start slowly, don't ramp up or commit yourself until you're sure you can handle it, and NEVER, ever succumb to sunk cost fallacy. Keep in touch with how you're feeling about the journey, and if taking science courses and increasing your health care exposure is giving you energy and strengthening your resolve, by all means, keep it up. If not, pull the cord. You're quite possibly making a crappy financial decision by choosing medicine, especially at this point, and ejecting any time between now and M-1 will always be the better call than soldiering through based on time and resources committed.

First off, thanks a lot for the response. I especially liked your point on the sunk cost theory - it's definitely something to be aware of during this journey. I'm thinking of applying to post-baccs that start in the Fall of 2018, taking A&P at my local community college this spring to apply my reformed study habits and possibly taking some more courses after that during the summer. And all the while I'll continue to volunteer, and actively seek rewarding employment.

Would you mind elaborating on the year or so of your gradual academic comeback (ie. classes you started take, number of classes/semester, where you took the classes, what you did in the spare time outside of classes to supplement your academic pursuits, etc.)? Or did you jump right into the pre-req course load as a full-time student?

I'll be sure to keep my status updated in the future, so anyone in a similar position can get a better sense of what they're up against.

 

[esob]

@esob Thanks for your response. I understand it is unsafe to assume I'll now get straight A's, but I have been proactively taking steps to increase the likelihood of this. Regardless, it doesn't seem I have any other choice but to just about ace the pre-reqs if I want to do DO or MD. In regards to DO programs, I haven't ruled them out, and even in the best-case scenario that some reputable SDN member told me I had chances of getting into MD programs if I took path X, I would be sure to apply to a handful of DO programs as well. I just don't want to rule out MD programs without fully understanding the admissions process/decision-making. With that said, are you of the belief that there is no hope for anyone with less than let's say a 3.5 cGPA of getting into a MD program, even if they had been getting A's in all of their recent science coursework for roughly 5-6 semesters? I've been looking at MSAR and the median GPA metric, but I don't know what to think since it's an not an average.. A median GPA of 3.68 technically leaves room for someone with a 3.2 although I'm sure the median represents a number close to the average accepted student. I just want to know if they save room for outliers such as myself given a proven change of mentality and focus, or they don't care about anything but the c/s GPA stat at the end of the day.

It's not a "there's no chance" situation, but it just becomes more like hitting the lottery than a calculated risk. It's like jumping out of a plane with a parachute. It's dangerous, but with proper training and a backup shoot, there is a good likelihood you will survive. You can also jump out of a plane without a backup shoot; there is still a good, but diminished likelihood you will survive. Then you can jump out of a plane at 33,000 feet without a parachute. Someone has survived such a fall (Vesna Vulovic in 1972). However, mortgaging your hopes and dreams on being the next Vesna Vulovic is not the smartest move you can make 😉

At this point, you are probably past the "ideal" scenario, which is straight A's the first time through and a perfect MCAT (which, even then, doesn't net you a 100% chance of acceptance). At this point, you are more in the lines of the guy without the backup parachute. This means you should be doing everything else you can to mitigate any additional risks. If you don't think you can successfully mitigate those risks, the best advice is to not jump out of the plane to begin with