WAMC - Ortho....Rising MS3 wondering if its still worthwhile going for it

[frenchyn]

Personally, I would recommend jumping ship. If you still want surgery, focus on gen surg. My friend in AOA with honors in Surgery and Ortho Sub-I had to SOAP into a prelim surg spot after going unmatched this cycle. I wouldn't wish SOAP or Scramble on my worst enemy.

No lol. Jumping ship is too early. At least OP should dual apply if OP does not absolutely want to end up in SOAP. Your friends did not match does not mean OP won’t especially if it is because of something as stupid as clinical grade. Clinical grades so vary between school it is almost bull**** to compare them directly unless OP wants to aim for top programs where his/her app needs to be A+ in every aspects.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[frenchyn]

This isn’t necessarily true. In a lot of fields, research is research and will still help even if it’s in a different field.

This is true. I just want to point out tho it gets tricky w dual apply. People will look at his/her app and wonder why someone takes a research in ortho but is applying to gen surg or whatever. Obviously OP should lie, but PDs do this for years, they will know.

 

[AzBasRad]

No lol. Jumping ship is too early. At least OP should dual apply if OP does not absolutely want to end up in SOAP. Your friends did not match does not mean OP won’t especially if it is because of something as stupid as clinical grade. Clinical grades so vary between school it is almost bull**** to compare them directly unless OP wants to aim for top programs where his/her app needs to be A+ in every aspects.

< 6 months before apps are due is not too early to jump ship.

The match rate for Ortho this year was 67% for all applicants and 75% for MD seniors. OP's step score is in the bottom quartile for ortho. Per the charting outcomes, top criteria for interviews are step scores, professionalism, audition performance, LoR, clincial grades and class ranking. While I agree with your sentiment on clinical grades, the reality is they are still important. OP's unfortunately are not noteworthy.

At this point, OP can influence their audition performance, research and LoRs. To maximize chances for Ortho, OP would need to rock their research year and 3-4 auditions in Ortho next year assuming COVID related restrictions are lifted. However, such an app would scream Otho and no backup speciality will take OP seriously as you correctly alluded.

Gen Surg is a much more realistic first option. OP's step score is above the median and their strong pub record will be viewed as an asset. OP would most likely match somewhere if they do well in their Gen Surg Sub-I and obtain strong LoRs. PMR and Radiology are also realistic options if OP wants to focus on MSK procedures and does not care about surgery.

 

[frenchyn]

< 6 months before apps are due is not too early to jump ship.

The match rate for Ortho this year was 67% for all applicants and 75% for MD seniors. OP's step score is in the bottom quartile for ortho. Per the charting outcomes, top criteria for interviews are step scores, professionalism, audition performance, LoR, clincial grades and class ranking. While I agree with your sentiment on clinical grades, the reality is they are still important. OP's unfortunately are not noteworthy.

At this point, OP can influence their audition performance, research and LoRs. To maximize chances for Ortho, OP would need to rock their research year and 3-4 auditions in Ortho next year assuming COVID related restrictions are lifted. However, such an app would scream Otho and no backup speciality will take OP seriously as you correctly alluded.

Gen Surg is a much more realistic first option. OP's step score is above the median and their strong pub record will be viewed as an asset. OP would most likely match somewhere if they do well in their Gen Surg Sub-I and obtain strong LoRs. PMR and Radiology are also realistic options if OP wants to focus on MSK procedures and does not care about surgery.

I agree. It is crazy to give up ortho just like that tho. OP still has good chance if he/she aces subI n research year etc. the last thing OP wants is to give up ortho match into gen surg n wonder what if? I guess the ultimate factor is how much he/she wants ortho and gamble?
P.S I know plenty of people who matched into ortho or neurosurgery w sub 230-240 and 1-2 pubs while plenty of people w 250+ and multiple of pubs did not match. Sometimes it is just fate...you will never know unless you try.

 

[Frogger27]

Hey guys, so I'm now onto my final clerkship and still haven't gotten a single Honors :/ and I only got Passes in medicine and surgery (the other two were high pass) I've tried my best but I cant seem to score more than the mean on shelf exams.

At this point, should I just jump ship and go for a different specialty? I know that clinical grades are super important for matching and I really don't want to SOAP.

What sucks is that I've already committed to a research year for ortho and now I'm depressed thinking I'm going to be busting my ass for research that isn't even going to be valuable for me down the line

Sorry to hear that clerkships aren't going the way you hoped. I hate how clerkships are graded and think it is a major failure in our medical education system (eg., picking easy rotations so one can study more, gaming the system to get put with "easy graders", etc), but I digress.

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and decide how much you want to do ortho. If you decide to apply ortho, you need to be okay with the realistic possibility of going unmatched. I say this to anyone applying ortho - the match rate for USMD this year was 74.8%. This ~25% includes applicants who are absolute rockstars, people who have taken research years, etc. My class was 8/11 matched this year and one of our unmatched was coming off a productive research year. They scrambled into a prelim surgery position - not sure if they plan to reapply, go gen surg or do radiology/anesthesia.

I can't tell you how important clinical grades are in comparison to other aspects of your application, but it is not the end all be all. As others have mentioned, there is huge variability school to school. PDs want strong students who are well rounded. This comes in many different forms. For what it's worth, I had 1H and 3HP (+ 3 P/F because of Covid). I was never asked about clinical grades in any of my interviews.

I know there are a lot of people mentioning dual applying. Personally, I am against this. You need to be 110% committed to ortho to match. Any energy you put towards applying to another specialty, getting LORs, etc will take away from matching ortho.

If you decide to apply ortho, bust your a** at your research year. Think of it as a year long interview. Show up early, go to lectures, find mentors who believe in you and will support your application. People have matched every year with deficiencies in their app (low board scores, poor clinical grades, etc). You will need to go all out - apply to 120+ programs, do as many rotations as humanely possible (talk with your school about how to make this happen - you may have more availability with the research year) and let the cards fall where they do. I know it is hard having some perspective of the decision you have to make, but remember that no matter what you decide you will be okay in the end and have a successful career. Good luck!

 

[frenchyn]

Sorry to hear that clerkships aren't going the way you hoped. I hate how clerkships are graded and think it is a major failure in our medical education system (eg., picking easy rotations so one can study more, gaming the system to get put with "easy graders", etc), but I digress.

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and decide how much you want to do ortho. If you decide to apply ortho, you need to be okay with the realistic possibility of going unmatched. I say this to anyone applying ortho - the match rate for USMD this year was 74.8%. This ~25% includes applicants who are absolute rockstars, people who have taken research years, etc. My class was 8/11 matched this year and one of our unmatched was coming off a productive research year. They scrambled into a prelim surgery position - not sure if they plan to reapply, go gen surg or do radiology/anesthesia.

I can't tell you how important clinical grades are in comparison to other aspects of your application, but it is not the end all be all. As others have mentioned, there is huge variability school to school. PDs want strong students who are well rounded. This comes in many different forms. For what it's worth, I had 1H and 3HP (+ 3 P/F because of Covid). I was never asked about clinical grades in any of my interviews.

I know there are a lot of people mentioning dual applying. Personally, I am against this. You need to be 110% committed to ortho to match. Any energy you put towards applying to another specialty, getting LORs, etc will take away from matching ortho.

If you decide to apply ortho, bust your a** at your research year. Think of it as a year long interview. Show up early, go to lectures, find mentors who believe in you and will support your application. People have matched every year with deficiencies in their app (low board scores, poor clinical grades, etc). You will need to go all out - apply to 120+ programs, do as many rotations as humanely possible (talk with your school about how to make this happen - you may have more availability with the research year) and let the cards fall where they do. I know it is hard having some perspective of the decision you have to make, but remember that no matter what you decide you will be okay in the end and have a successful career. Good luck!

Dual apply is tiring I agree. I dual applied this cycle so...but OP needs to keep in mind: Soap is hell. Ask yourself if you are willing to go through this. Majority of positions open in soap are Surg prelim/TY. Surg prelim in Soap are pretty competitive because some programs intentionally leave empty to catch those high score unmatched nes/ortho/derm etc. This year soap was ~9K applicants for ~1K spots. Also ask yourself: are you ok w FM/IM, because those are the next options in soaps. Keep in mind, these programs are **** and in the middle of nowhere. I helped people looking up programs during soap and idk if I want to train at these places vs unemployed. Weight these with dual apply where you have options to train at better programs at better locations in 2nd choice specialty. Soap and scramble are hell. Tough situation, that unfortunately when you apply to one of these surg subspecialties you have to weight the options and see what is best for yourself.

 

[efle]

dual apply ortho + DR, with a Pass in your surgery rotation and a 240 on Step you'd be crazy to apply only ortho

 

[Banco]

Step 2 can help you out here. But yeah you need to first make the decision of surgery vs. non-surgery first.

Then you can talk about dual applying with Ortho + Surgery or Ortho + IM/Rads/Anesthesia etc.

 

[flapjack3d]

Look into PM&R!

 

[FindersFee5]

Med students see step scores as 245 trumps 240, so the 245 will be ranked higher. That's not how it works at all. Your score isn't out of this world, but it's good. It's puts you in the 25th percentile for ortho based on charting the outcomes. You reached the cut off, so now your app will be judged on what else you bring to the table.

Couple that with good research, good clinical performance, good step 2, and strong away rotations/LORs and you are not in a bad spot.

I think it's compassionate and worthwhile to tell people not to give up on their dreams when they hit a few bumps, but there's one part of this that I see commonly and want to push back on. This is not a student who has demonstrated the ability to perform at a super high level on an away rotation. I agree that there is a lot of randomness in 3rd year grading, but trends exist for a reason. Somebody who has gotten 1 or 2 honors in third year rotations is less likely to be the type of person who will excel in an away rotation, especially when competing with a cohort who has likely gotten mostly honors throughout third year (most of the competitive specialty applicants at my school, at least). I commonly see "crush away rotations" as this panacea for an overall weaker application, without stopping to consider whether this is a student who is likely going to be able to achieve that.

 

[MyRealFakeAccount]

I think it's compassionate and worthwhile to tell people not to give up on their dreams when they hit a few bumps, but there's one part of this that I see commonly and want to push back on. This is not a student who has demonstrated the ability to perform at a super high level on an away rotation. I agree that there is a lot of randomness in 3rd year grading, but trends exist for a reason. Somebody who has gotten 1 or 2 honors in third year rotations is less likely to be the type of person who will excel in an away rotation, especially when competing with a cohort who has likely gotten mostly honors throughout third year (most of the competitive specialty applicants at my school, at least). I commonly see "crush away rotations" as this panacea for an overall weaker application, without stopping to consider whether this is a student who is likely going to be able to achieve that.

FWIW I was shafted by subjective grading in FM and did not get the H bc of it and missed H in Neuro/Psych by literally 3 questions. I am confident in my ability to do well in away rotations, especially if I have a research year that will afford me time to study for auditions and shadow orthopods.

I appreciate your input though and will definitely consider my options after seeing what I get on step 2. Im thinking if I get over 260+, ill go all in for ortho. If i get in the 250s ill prob dual apply. and less than 250 and ill jump ship entirely.

The nice thing about the research year is that ill be able to tailor my 4th year after seeing what I get on step 2. I really wish I had gamed third year more and spent more time studying and less than trying to help out in the clinics. such is life. really hard to give up on the dream tho

 

[MyRealFakeAccount]

hey everyone, got my step 2 score back today and got a 250 even....

currently on a research year and expect a couple of pubs from it, but given the below average academics, do you think I should still go for it?

Part of the reason I took the year off was to give myself the opportunity to explore different options based on application, so I won't feel bad if you tell me to jump ship (as long as you mean it lol)

Final stats:

243, 250
Passes in all clinical grades except high pass in Neuro/Psych and FM (no Honors)
No AOA

Research (All Basic Science Oncology manuscripts NOT in Ortho, done within last 3 years):
1 1st author
1 2nd author
4 3rd author
1 7th author

Ortho Research
1 third author review article
---on research year so more projects on the way

 

[efle]

hey everyone, got my step 2 score back today and got a 250 even....

currently on a research year and expect a couple of pubs from it, but given the below average academics, do you think I should still go for it?

Part of the reason I took the year off was to give myself the opportunity to explore different options based on application, so I won't feel bad if you tell me to jump ship (as long as you mean it lol)

Final stats:

243, 250
Passes in all clinical grades except high pass in Neuro/Psych and FM (no Honors)
No AOA

Research (All Basic Science Oncology manuscripts NOT in Ortho, done within last 3 years):
1 1st author
1 2nd author
4 3rd author
1 7th author

Ortho Research
1 third author review article
---on research year so more projects on the way

Dual apply with tempered expectations

No reason not to try!

 

[Lawpy]

Dual apply with tempered expectations

No reason not to try!

What do you make of a pass in surgery? That looks like a dealbreaker for ortho

@OrthoTraumaMD @VincentAdultman

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

What do you make of a pass in surgery? That looks like a dealbreaker for ortho

@OrthoTraumaMD @VincentAdultman

Depends on how well the person did in their ortho away rotations. Certainly it will raise eyebrows but it is not a dealbreaker

 

[VincentAdultman]

hey everyone, got my step 2 score back today and got a 250 even....

currently on a research year and expect a couple of pubs from it, but given the below average academics, do you think I should still go for it?

Part of the reason I took the year off was to give myself the opportunity to explore different options based on application, so I won't feel bad if you tell me to jump ship (as long as you mean it lol)

Final stats:

243, 250
Passes in all clinical grades except high pass in Neuro/Psych and FM (no Honors)
No AOA

Research (All Basic Science Oncology manuscripts NOT in Ortho, done within last 3 years):
1 1st author
1 2nd author
4 3rd author
1 7th author

Ortho Research
1 third author review article
---on research year so more projects on the way

Id still go for it if you really want it. Better to not spend the rest of your life wondering “what if.” Especially if you did well on ortho rotations.